Will the Nemesis function as a de facto alert system?

[Gentleman_Bird]

We don't know many details about how Nemesis will work, but judging from the demo it's reasonable to assume that he'll pop up randomly in a variety of missions types. Isn't that basically what alerts are?

[(XBOX)The Neko Otaku]

Probably not, way back they showed a special room for kingpin in the dojo where you attacked your target from

[Oreades]

I'm still really worried about a lot of what they said about the Nemesis whoozle 

For starters it sounded like if you used a Warframe Power to kill them they, I think the quote was "absorbed that power for their own", 

• Does that mean that if they are killed while under the effect of a Warframe Ability that they just get tankier/spongier the next time you encounter them?
• Does that mean if they are killed while under the effect of a Warframe aBility that they gain access to that Warframe Ability for your future encounters?

Cause either way sounds pretty un-fun especially if you're playing with Randos who are probably going to spam powers either not realizing or specifically to troll you. Plus it comes off as (to paraphrase Rick Sanchez) "That's just removing/negating warframe powers with extra steps". Yeah you can still use them so DE hasn't expressly made the boss immune or anything but they've set it up so you're punished later on if you do. We've just moved from "you can't" to "Don't or you'll be sorry"

Also what happens when our "Nemesis" reaches a point where we just can't kill them anymore? We just let them faceroll us for that (random) mission and move on? GG sounds like a blast~

Edited July 18, 2019 by Oreades

[RamonLLLL]

3 minutes ago, Oreades said:

I'm still really worried about a lot of what they said about the Nemesis whoozle 

For starters it sounded like if you used a Warframe Power to kill them they, I think the quote was "absorbed that power for their own", 

• Does that mean that if they are killed while under the effect of a Warframe Ability that they just get tankier/spongier the next time you encounter them?
• Does that mean if they are killed while under the effect of a Warframe aBility that they gain access to that Warframe Ability for your future encounters?

Cause either way sounds pretty un-fun especially if you're playing with Randos who are probably going to spam powers either not realizing or specifically to troll you. Plus it comes off as (to paraphrase Rick Sanchez) removing/negating warframe powers with extra steps. Yeah you can still use them so DE hasn't expressly made the boss immune or anything but they've set it up so you're punished later on if you do. 

Also what happens when our "Nemesis" reaches a point where we just can't kill them anymore? We just let them faceroll us for that (random) mission and move on? GG sounds like a blast~

Imagine absorbing from Rhino or Inaros or Nidus or Wukong, we're screwed

[Oreades]

1 minute ago, RamonLeeYJ said:

Imagine absorbing from Rhino or Inaros or Nidus or Wukong, we're screwed

I kinda play Titania A LOT so I'm expecting if power absorption is the case then my Nemesis is probably going to have Razorwing pretty early~ 

Tho I wouldn't worry too much about Inaros, at least not for my play style since I only ever use his Armor buff, pretty sure the Nemesis wouldn't absorb the powers of a Warframe ability that is only effecting the Warframe? maybe? 

[Miser_able]

15 minutes ago, Oreades said:

I'm still really worried about a lot of what they said about the Nemesis whoozle 

For starters it sounded like if you used a Warframe Power to kill them they, I think the quote was "absorbed that power for their own", 

• Does that mean that if they are killed while under the effect of a Warframe Ability that they just get tankier/spongier the next time you encounter them?
• Does that mean if they are killed while under the effect of a Warframe aBility that they gain access to that Warframe Ability for your future encounters?

Cause either way sounds pretty un-fun especially if you're playing with Randos who are probably going to spam powers either not realizing or specifically to troll you. Plus it comes off as (to paraphrase Rick Sanchez) "That's just removing/negating warframe powers with extra steps". Yeah you can still use them so DE hasn't expressly made the boss immune or anything but they've set it up so you're punished later on if you do. We've just moved from "you can't" to "Don't or you'll be sorry"

Also what happens when our "Nemesis" reaches a point where we just can't kill them anymore? We just let them faceroll us for that (random) mission and move on? GG sounds like a blast~

iirc they said each person's nemesis is specific to them, so yours can only absorb powers from you, randos can't effect it. they probably can't even join in on the hunt unless you invite em

[Oreades]

2 minutes ago, Miser_able said:

iirc they said each person's nemesis is specific to them, so yours can only absorb powers from you, randos can't effect it. they probably can't even join in on the hunt unless you invite em

Where you talking for the shield thing? 

Didn't seem like it was so much a "hunt" I mean they where supposedly "hunting" them for the sake of the demonstration (tho I suspect that the encounter rates where highly altered in favor of the Nemesis showing up) they very much made it sound like the Nemesis encounter would be random not unlike the Grustrag/Stalker/Zanuka marks. So they'd just kinda show up when you where futzing around in Emperyon.  

Fine if you only ever play with friends but Emperyon going to be another dead game mode if it doesn't support PUGs

[DrakeWurrum]

31 minutes ago, Oreades said:

For starters it sounded like if you used a Warframe Power to kill them they, I think the quote was "absorbed that power for their own", 

• Does that mean that if they are killed while under the effect of a Warframe Ability that they just get tankier/spongier the next time you encounter them?
• Does that mean if they are killed while under the effect of a Warframe aBility that they gain access to that Warframe Ability for your future encounters?

It sounded to me like which frame you killed it with decided what kind of kuva lich it was. Since Reb killed it with a Volt, it became a "Grineer Tech" lich. This was explained a bit more in an interview with Rock Paper Shotgun.

31 minutes ago, Oreades said:

Cause either way sounds pretty un-fun especially if you're playing with Randos who are probably going to spam powers either not realizing or specifically to troll you. Plus it comes off as (to paraphrase Rick Sanchez) "That's just removing/negating warframe powers with extra steps". Yeah you can still use them so DE hasn't expressly made the boss immune or anything but they've set it up so you're punished later on if you do. We've just moved from "you can't" to "Don't or you'll be sorry"

You're jumping to a lot of conclusions without having any information as to how exactly it works. For all we know, creating the lich is something specific to us and won't have anything to do with randos.

Remember that they showed a little "hero moment" of Reb killing the lich herself. I'm willing to bet when the lich goes down, only you will be able to finish it off and get that hero moment. It's YOUR stalker, after all.

Edited July 18, 2019 by DrakeWurrum

[Renegade343]

I wonder if it'll end up working like the antibiotic/bacteriophage interactions with bacteria. Kill the Nemesis with just weapons a lot, it'll be more resistant to it at the cost of being more susceptible to frame powers, then swap towards killing it with frame powers to lower its resistance to weapons and so on.

[GrayArchon]

1 hour ago, Oreades said:

Does that mean that if they are killed while under the effect of a Warframe Ability that they just get tankier/spongier the next time you encounter them?

They may get tankier, but more importantly they also get more powerful. In the demo, Reb's Kuva Lich was the commander of a galleon and had other support ships nearby – basically a small flotilla. This guy basically became his own faction. Thus the complicated sequence to take him down. I imagine the first few times you kill him, he's pretty easy, like a beefed-up Eximus. But then he gets more powerful, and you have to change tactics.

This is a character that grows with you, that you'll never defeat completely (so it seems, so far). It's not supposed to be quick and easy, not when he gets more powerful.

I assume there will be a cap or some other mechanics that ensure he doesn't ever get so powerful it's literally impossible to kill him.

[DrakeWurrum]

9 minutes ago, GrayArchon said:

I assume there will be a cap or some other mechanics that ensure he doesn't ever get so powerful it's literally impossible to kill him.

Or maybe he does, and we have to come up with a way to replace him as part of a special event mission. Thus giving us chances to try other types of the lich.

Edited July 18, 2019 by DrakeWurrum

[Oreades]

1 hour ago, DrakeWurrum said:

You're jumping to a lot of conclusions without having any information as to how exactly it works. For all we know, creating the lich is something specific to us and won't have anything to do with randos..

Then maybe they should do a better job conveying how exactly it works than leaving people to guess at the mechanics? 

 

1 hour ago, DrakeWurrum said:

Remember that they showed a little "hero moment" of Reb killing the lich herself. I'm willing to bet when the lich goes down, only you will be able to finish it off and get that hero moment. It's YOUR stalker, after all.

I don't remember that but to be honest the little mini action cut scenes when you do a thing don't really do anything for me. Guess I'm just more of an Indiana Jones, just shoot the guy and get it over with, problem solved....  

I do remember being OMG bored before they finally finished the encounter and my general take has been that I hope it plays better than it watches.  

 

6 minutes ago, GrayArchon said:

This is a character that grows with you, that you'll never defeat completely (so it seems, so far). It's not supposed to be quick and easy, not when he gets more powerful.

I assume there will be a cap or some other mechanics that ensure he doesn't ever get so powerful it's literally impossible to kill him.

If it has a cap then there is no reason to hold back just push it to the wall and be done with it cause it's going to get there eventually anyhow. It's just a differed boss fight, unless there is some mechanism that the player can intentionally sculpt the outcome that doesn't involve reading a FAQ/Walkthrough/Guid some months after the system is finally released. 

Tho that does raise another curiosity, if you defeat them without powers they don't get any stronger, why not simply never use powers? Unless the game forces you to in which point there was never truly any other option to begin with. 

 

[DrakeWurrum]

2 minutes ago, Oreades said:

Tho that does raise another curiosity, if you defeat them without powers they don't get any stronger, why not simply never use powers? Unless the game forces you to in which point there was never truly any other option to begin with. 

 

I don't think it has to do with "defeating them with powers" but just what warframe you use to kill it.

I wonder if leaving it alone allows it to get more powerful over time. Reb's was alive for "72 days" or something. And then she went in and tore up his fleet. What, he's just gonna pop back up again in another couple days with a whole new fleet?

2 minutes ago, Oreades said:

Then maybe they should do a better job conveying how exactly it works than leaving people to guess at the mechanics? 

That's now how hype works!

Edited July 18, 2019 by DrakeWurrum

[Miser_able]

3 hours ago, Oreades said:

Where you talking for the shield thing? 

Didn't seem like it was so much a "hunt" I mean they where supposedly "hunting" them for the sake of the demonstration (tho I suspect that the encounter rates where highly altered in favor of the Nemesis showing up) they very much made it sound like the Nemesis encounter would be random not unlike the Grustrag/Stalker/Zanuka marks. So they'd just kinda show up when you where futzing around in Emperyon.  

Fine if you only ever play with friends but Emperyon going to be another dead game mode if it doesn't support PUGs

it wasnt a random spawn. their was a node on the starchart that was listed as the nemesis' ship. and they went straight for it

[GrayArchon]

1 hour ago, Oreades said:

Then maybe they should do a better job conveying how exactly it works than leaving people to guess at the mechanics? 

All we have right now is one demo, part of a larger exposition. They'll talk more about it on DevStreams as we get closer to release date, as with every other update.

1 hour ago, Oreades said:

I don't remember that but to be honest the little mini action cut scenes when you do a thing don't really do anything for me. Guess I'm just more of an Indiana Jones, just shoot the guy and get it over with, problem solved....  

I do remember being OMG bored before they finally finished the encounter and my general take has been that I hope it plays better than it watches.

[DE]Steve has been talking about incorporating more and more "cinematic" moments into the game, and we've already seen these in the Exploiter Orb and Ropalolyst boss fights. If those aren't your jam, then it looks like you're out of luck. Sorry.

1 hour ago, Oreades said:

If it has a cap then there is no reason to hold back just push it to the wall and be done with it cause it's going to get there eventually anyhow.

It looks to be a narrative journey and a life-long (antagonistic) relationship. It's not a typical boss fight. That's like saying "just let us kill the Exploiter Orb without doing Thermia fractures and scanning the data-hashes" or "let us hunt Eidolons without doing the War Within quest". That's not how stories work, and you're throwing away playable content.

1 hour ago, Oreades said:

It's just a differed boss fight, unless there is some mechanism that the player can intentionally sculpt the outcome that doesn't involve reading a FAQ/Walkthrough/Guid some months after the system is finally released.

The Kuva Lich is personalised, and I assume that is a mixture of randomisation and choices you make as you confront it. All things point to this not being a typical boss fight.

[sleepychewbacca]

I do wonder what happens if you go at him with 2 Magus Lockdowns. 

[Oreades]

40 minutes ago, GrayArchon said:

DE]Steve has been talking about incorporating more and more "cinematic" moments into the game, and we've already seen these in the Exploiter Orb and Ropalolyst boss fights. If those aren't your jam, then it looks like you're out of luck. Sorry.

Whelp I guess I can look forward to more QTEs that lose their punch each time you preform them until they become nothing more than a chore, wooo~

And then there is the unstoppable monologue of the Lotus in the Rapodapalapalalalalalys fight, which is literally the reason I stopped playing that. 

Warframe could stand some srsy moderation when it comes to these things because they don't embiggen the fight they just add completely skippable fluff that's kinda cool the first time or three but quickly outstays it's welcome. OK I ripped the thing off the side of the thing, I get it, can I just shoot now? No?.... OK..... Now can I shoot? Yes but you decided it's super great to always face the player 180 degrees away from the enemy so they have to spin around and re-aim at it because reasons? Ok good talk~

 

41 minutes ago, GrayArchon said:

It looks to be a narrative journey and a life-long (antagonistic) relationship. It's not a typical boss fight. That's like saying "just let us kill the Exploiter Orb without doing Thermia fractures and scanning the data-hashes" or "let us hunt Eidolons without doing the War Within quest". That's not how stories work, and you're throwing away playable content.

Fights like Infested Alad V, Kela De Thane (still IMHO the best boss fight mechanically speaking in the game), the exploiter and any other boss fight that has a "farm things to farm the boss" mechanic would all IMHO benefit from ditching the initial step of "farming things" before you get to farming the boss. The pre-farm mechanic doesn't add anything to those fights save for tedium. Soooo yeah I'm totally down for saying lets kill the exploiter orb without the busy work.

As for the Eidolons, they have nothing to do with TWW save for the Quills locking you out of Amps unless you've done that quest.....for reasons? It's more like "Lets do Eidolons without grinding Amps" Which you very much can do.

 

41 minutes ago, GrayArchon said:

The Kuva Lich is personalised, and I assume that is a mixture of randomisation and choices you make as you confront it. All things point to this not being a typical boss fight.

*le gasp* are you assuming something without having all the information on hand 😧

Looked very much like an over complicated but typical boss fight to me. Lots of waiting while other people did stuff somewhere else and at the end Press F to pay respects X to mini cutscene. 

 

8 minutes ago, sleepychewbacca said:

I do wonder what happens if you go at him with 2 Magus Lockdowns. 

Well I guess I'm gonna find out, inb4 he's inexplicably immune~

[DrakeWurrum]

4 minutes ago, Oreades said:

*le gasp* are you assuming something without having all the information on hand 😧

They literally told us on stage that's what it's going to be. It's personalized, to you, and gets stronger every time you kill it.

4 minutes ago, Oreades said:

Well I guess I'm gonna find out, inb4 he's inexplicably immune~

They never said he becomes resistant to your powers.

[Oreades]

11 minutes ago, DrakeWurrum said:

They literally told us on stage that's what it's going to be. It's personalized, to you, and gets stronger every time you kill it.

Yea but they never said how without being ambiguous about it. Leme just reply to you with your own quotes. 

5 hours ago, DrakeWurrum said:

You're jumping to a lot of conclusions without having any information as to how exactly it works. 

Followed by the part in which you start making assumptions about how the Kuva Litch works. 

1 hour ago, GrayArchon said:

The Kuva Lich is personalised, and I assume that is a mixture of randomisation and choices you make as you confront it. All things point to this not being a typical boss fight.

So which is it my friend, are we allowed to make assumptions or not? 

 

13 minutes ago, DrakeWurrum said:

They never said he becomes resistant to your powers.

For starters Magnus Lockdown is not a Warframe power and for finishers "I guess I'm gonna find out" 

[DrakeWurrum]

8 minutes ago, Oreades said:

So which is it my friend, are we allowed to make assumptions or not?

Based on the information we were given. When Reb killed the lich, it showed a bunch of stats in a little sub-window, such as age, what frame she killed it with, where it was born, the number of times encountered, and how many times it evolved. I also am going off some info they've specifically stated at Tennocon (and in interviews given around the time of Tennocon).

Note: Because Reb killed him with a Volt, he had Volt's helmet as a shoulderpad, and had the Shock ability as one of his powers.

They also specifically said this boss fight is something encountered later on in your encounters with him, and that earlier it will spawn in largely like the Stalker does. They also mentioned that this was specifically a "Grineer tech" type of kuva lich. This directly means other types exist, and they've said it's specifically linked to which frame you kill it with. We don't know what types will exist, but that will be fun to play with. I'm actually wondering if it will ONLY be Grineer types, (seems likely, it's a KUVA lich, but who knows what DE will push out in the future).

This whole thing was originally inspired by Shadows of Mordor's nemesis system, but they've done their own twist on it.

Again: I'm going off information they have given us, and using logic to try to understand what they're saying. You're making completely random assumptions based on cynicism.

Edited July 19, 2019 by DrakeWurrum

[Oreades]

1 minute ago, DrakeWurrum said:

Based on the information we were given. When Reb killed the lich, it showed a bunch of stats in a little sub-window, such as age, what frame she killed it with, the number of times encountered, and how many times it evolved. I also am going off some info they've specifically stated at Tennocon (and in interviews given around the time of Tennocon).

So you're going off of one stat screen to derive how the sausage is made. 

Here let me pull up a random stat screen for a weapon in Warframe (not actually gonna btw but imagine I did) now feel free to tell me all about it's firing mechanics. Does it have an Alt Fire? What about the hidden mechanics that aren't on that stat screen, does it have those? 

As for "what they said in an interview" that can also be taken with a srs grain of salt. I mean they said multiple times that the new door traps on Jupiter where goingto reward players for dodging them instead of punishing them for triggering the traps. Flash forward to the Jupiter rework and triggering the door trap turns the next room into a big oll punishy trap. So what a developer says now and what actually gets implemented months later are often totally different things. But if you want to link the interview I'd be glad to thumb through it. 

[DrakeWurrum]

4 hours ago, Oreades said:

So you're going off of one stat screen to derive how the sausage is made.

Wrong. I am basing it off what they've showed us from the demo AND things they've said about it. It's better than just assuming out of thin air based on an expectation of disappointment.

It's especially hilarious that you've quoted other people to me to use "my" words against me. I am not GreyArchon. To wit, and to repeat the point you're still not getting:

6 hours ago, GrayArchon said:

The Kuva Lich is personalised, and I assume that is a mixture of randomisation and choices you make as you confront it. All things point to this not being a typical boss fight.

5 hours ago, Oreades said:

*le gasp* are you assuming something without having all the information on hand 😧

They literally told us that it's personalized to you, that some of it's boss abilities are procedurally chosen, and others are based on what frame you used to kill it. Reb created that one in the demo with a Volt, so it had a Volt helmet for a shoulderpad and actually used the Shock power against her.  It also had other powers that were NOT based on frames. They have specifically said that it starts out stalking us by spawning randomly into a mission, and that when we kill it, it evolves and grows stronger for the next encounter, and the next, and the next, and can eventually grow powerful enough to apparently have it's own capital ship and a fleet supporting it. The stat screen in that demo showed where it was created, what frame killed it, how long ago, what power it stole, how many encounters, and how many evolutions. It even showed weaknesses and resistances. But we still have no idea exactly how all that is decided, or what each evolution does.

What I found really interesting is that he had a specific voice line based on the fact that a Volt created him: "Your voltage ran through me. My organs fried." I'm curious to see if they can make that work with every frame, and if they can expand on it (assuming he can steal multiple powers - we don't know if he can), because it sounds like a lot of work.

All these things have been stated based on what they have said. That's not assumptions.

It is a total guess that the "hero moment" is how they prevent randos from messing with your stalker, because that simply makes sense (and they've mentioned increased usage of hero moments in devstreams). They haven't said anything about what that weird Assassin's Creed hand-dagger is about, so we have no idea exactly how the lich is created beyond what they have said about it randomly spawning on us. What we DID see is that when it went down, he seemed to go into a "downed state" and there was a prompt to press X. I couldn't read the text, though. It wouldn't make sense for the other players to finish it off when it is Rebecca's personalized stalker.

While I'm sure the fights can get boring after seeing it a dozen or more times, especially if it no longer gives rewards we want, it will still be content that we can enjoy that is designed from the get-go to change with every encounter instead of always being the same cookbook instructions to kill it.

Meanwhile, you're over here just saying "Oh, sounds like a boring typical boss fight." Assumption. Cynicism. I guess Ropalolyst evolves every time you kill it, changing up it's powers and building an entire fleet for you to take down. So typical!

Go ahead and be cynical, but you're still being ridiculous, if you're not just trolling. I'm done with you, as you're already really not worth this post, and certainly not worth the effort of doing your Google searches for you.

Edited July 19, 2019 by DrakeWurrum

[TARINunit9]

10 hours ago, Oreades said:

Also what happens when our "Nemesis" reaches a point where we just can't kill them anymore? We just let them faceroll us for that (random) mission and move on? GG sounds like a blast~

My guess: they'll either do the MGS5 thing where they can only have a limited number of buffs at a time (in MGS5 IIRC it was only one buff at a time), or the Nemesis will temporarily die after enough kills, and you'll get a new Nemesis

[sleepychewbacca]

2 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

My guess: they'll either do the MGS5 thing where they can only have a limited number of buffs at a time (in MGS5 IIRC it was only one buff at a time), or the Nemesis will temporarily die after enough kills, and you'll get a new Nemesis

Can you imagine the ultimate monster of a system, with ALL of the existing Warframe's abilities, and the only way to effectively defeat such a beast is to resort to Operator combat? 

[DrakeWurrum]

5 minutes ago, sleepychewbacca said:

Can you imagine the ultimate monster of a system, with ALL of the existing Warframe's abilities, and the only way to effectively defeat such a beast is to resort to Operator combat? 

Well, so far, we don't even know if they can get multiple powers. The one DE killed supposedly was encounter 7 times, and evolved 3 times, but only had stolen Volt's Shock power. It might even be the case they only get to steal one specific power from each frame. Like with Volt, it's always Shock. Maybe with Frost, it's Ice Wave. etc.

Might be easier for them to balance that way, yeah?

Edited July 19, 2019 by DrakeWurrum