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Move Energy from focus to Mastery


el_chanis
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Right now, there is almost no focus choice. Zenurik is (and allways was, alongside Naramon in Focus 1.0) incredibly dominant, for the worse reason possible.

Let me clarify this:

If im playing a with a non-toggle warframe, Zenurik will be the best choice 100% of the time. If im playing a frame with a strong toggle ability (Excal, Equinox, etc), the other schools are so incredibly weak comparatively, that i can go with either (including zenurik) and still perform well. In fact, zenurik can help me get back on track when depleted.

I don't want the energy regen removed tho, given how much flow adds to the game, i do think however, that should be hard to earn, and and scale over time... wich leads to the Mastery Rank.

Mastery Rank, in its present iteration, it only matters as a weapon unlocker, plus some minor rewards when you began the game... HOWEVER, if each Mastery Rank grants a passive 0.1 Energy Regen, it would be a powerfull motivation to rank up for both newbies and veterans, and would open up the Focus tree election. Keep in mind that the max MR is 27 right now, so the energy would be 2.7/s at best.

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Just give all WFs some passive regen and cut the Zenurik one so when you use it, the total ends up the same. Plus keep the more energy from orbs thing.

Simple. Zenurik lets you cast more but is no longer the only source.

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I'd not want to see more power put into mastery rank, players with more gear tend to have more options and power anyway.

Focus needs better balancing on the whole anyway, Zenurik is an obvious benefit, while other schools are less obvious or need huge investment as to what they can provide.  With focus only trickling in however it doesn't really leave room for players to experiment with options that may not be of immediate benefits.

 

The core issue is energy.  Energy regen/gains has led to a lot of enemies simply hindering those gains or powers directly.  For example, Eximus have become homoginised across the board in an effort to deal with that as well (all of them have energy drain as a primary effect on common units), when previously those conditions were a lot more unique to each of the factions (energy drain was only an Infested thing).  I would not like to see that aspect go further than it already has, as I feel it has a detrimental effect on the fun of the game overall.

The weird bit is the whole reason (by lore) that Tenno are meant to be such a huge threat to the other factions is largely due to that those other factions, simply don't have the power or technology to deal with those powers the warframes/operators can unleash.  If the factions did have those means they could easily set it up everywhere to be a counter to Tenno at every turn.

The major issue is that for Warframe, powers are one of the few key features that make it distinct from many other shooters, take those powers away by whatever means and the game loses a chunk of its uniqueness (not to mention fun as well).

 

At the end of the day energy could probably be removed (thus letting players use powers freely) and we wouldn't really see much change in game-play overall (out side of heavy drain missions, or newer players).  I suspect energy is simply a lingering factor from the way the game worked in it's early stages (when we had less ways to gain it and less ways to make powers cost less), and it tends to play out much differently now.

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9 minutes ago, Loswaith said:

I'd not want to see more power put into mastery rank, players with more gear tend to have more options and power anyway.

 

Lol, Mastery Rank has zero power into it. The fact that better weapons are MR locked, doesn't mean that MR has any sort of power on itself. In fact, after MR14 there is basicly no point in ranking up besides prestige

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I definitely agree that all frames should have SOME level of passive regen. Perhaps caster frames have a naturally higher regen than non-caster frames, based on how often their "design" suggests they should be using their abilities. As it stands, gaining energy is incredibly tedious for all the wrong reasons:
-RNG from slowly opening tons of lockers/breaking containers, or killing enemies, which only drops 25 at a time unless you're Zenurik
-Frequent Eximus units that cause rapid energy decay
-Starting missions/reviving with only a meager amount of energy instead of your maximum (because let's take 2 "bullets" into the mission instead of full "ammo", that makes sense)
-Nullifiers needing you to recast semi-frequently, rising number of magnetic procs in the game which can take your energy to 0 instantly and are often nearly unavoidable.
-Lots of poorly-scaling abilities that need you to get strength/range/duration to be useful, but you also need to build for efficiency due to low base energy pools/gains and inefficient abilities

As it stands, Energy in general is in kind of a poor state. Not as bad as shields, but still pretty darn bad. And Zenurik is like the Hildryn of Energy: "Here's a fix... so long as you have one of these in your squad!"

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13 minutes ago, IdrisQe said:

 As it stands, Energy in general is in kind of a poor state. Not as bad as shields, but still pretty darn bad. And Zenurik is like the Hildryn of Energy: "Here's a fix... so long as you have one of these in your squad!"

admitedly, it used to be worse in the pre-focus Trinity-era. The reliance on her was absurd. But unless DE intentionally expects for Zenurik to be the absolute best focus school period, the energy source must be moved away ASAP. Even with the generosity of the "enery field", there is no reason whatsoever to rely on your teammates when you can get that by yourself.

The amount of energy to start with in missions is related to the amount of mod points left in your build. If you have 0 points left, you start with 100, and I THINK each point ads another 15 energy or so. Still ridiculous, a leftover from a far more energy-starving era, but a could be used as another source to regulate energy regen somehow (the less mods, the more energy you get, something like that). It would encourage more build diversity, instead of simply pushing for best mods possible all the time.

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I don't want important things like this to tied with super grindy progressions like mastery ranks.

Or else, warframe could be yet another MMO that you have to level for literally half a year to catch up old players.

Edited by Test-995
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3 minutes ago, Test-995 said:

I don't want something important things like this to tied with super grindy progressions like mastery ranks.

Or else, warframe could be yet another MMO that you have to level for literally half a year to catch up old players.

As it is. And as it should be. The best weapons are already MR locked. Even the mods themselves are locked since you have to farm like crazy to get+level them all. The positive part of this system is that given that all MR would give a little bit more regen: 1) the difference betwen newbs and veterans wont be that huge 2) the progression wont that jumpy, you will have tools all the way, instead of suck-suck-suck-yay.

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I'd really say no to fully attaching passive energy recovery to mastery. If you are truly trying to even the playing field and make other options more viable you'd need to pretty much spread energy across a lot of different things so that you can opt into using multiple sources to get the gain rate up fairly high and fast, but that opting for a couple other options doesn't completely dry the well and leave you reliant on the dinner plates. Plus your method would leave the new guy who just started with no efficiency mods still being massively disadvantaged.

So something along the lines of:

Have .1 passive regen per 5 MR attained. Its a bonus, but a really small one.

Bump the energy siphon aura up slightly to be better for solo play because in group play its typically 3-4 CP being wanted. However veterans usually can toss one of these at a new player pretty quickly... and it proves enormously useful to them before armor scaling becomes more of an issue a half dozen planets into the game.

Warframes are split into several categories based on expected casting rates and thus are given .2, .4, or .6 base regen as a frame statistic. So that caster frames can cast and the tanky frames still have their moments of power even when the blue stuff is hardly dropping.

Zenurik becomes more about extra oomph from energy orbs. Perhaps Zenurik could have a marking mechanic to make enemies spit out more energy orbs. Therefor *always* useful even to channeling frames but its not a constant baby pacifier of high energy regen that people use as a crutch.

Introduce a new mod that is a shielded reserve core. Grants additional energy regen when below threshold and prevents energy drain effects from removing energy when at or below threshold. Put the maximum threshold at like 50 and no higher. Preferably stick this fairly early in the game... would serve multiple purposes. For the newer players it is the energy crutch so they can use basic abilities more often, for the veterans its all about that can't be screwed over by energy drain eximus or magnetic procs past that point. And as it takes a mod slot you have to determine if you really need it against what else you could fit in.

And the expensive arcanes would still exist.

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1 hour ago, CRCGamer said:

If you are truly trying to even the playing field and make other options more viable you'd need to pretty much spread energy across a lot of different things so that you can opt into using multiple sources to get the gain rate up fairly high and fast, but that opting for a couple other options doesn't completely dry the well and leave you reliant on the dinner plates

what would prevent you from using rage, pizzas, arcane energize and any other source of enery of your liking? How suddenly this became an issue when it isn't right now, with the agravating condition of being aviable in a single focus school? Im sorry, but this objection sounds incredibly absurd.

1 hour ago, CRCGamer said:

Plus your method would leave the new guy who just started with no efficiency mods still being massively disadvantaged.

 

And yet somehow, you made an even more absurd comment right next to it. New guys have literally NOTHING right now. The focus tree (and more importantly, the energy node) is locked behind The War Within. Thats a lot of content to go through without any sort of help, with my method, they will have a passive source of energy. Again, can't see how you failed to realize the absurdity of this comment.

 

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1 hour ago, el_chanis said:

what would prevent you from using rage, pizzas, arcane energize and any other source of enery of your liking? How suddenly this became an issue when it isn't right now, with the agravating condition of being aviable in a single focus school? Im sorry, but this objection sounds incredibly absurd.

Honestly i would say part of it is the reason on what you trade off on using other things.

  • Rage only works with frames with the tankiness and not everyone likes sacrificing a mod slot on builds
  • Not everyone likes having to constantly throw out consumables to resolve the energy issue, especially those who are not loaded up with hundreds of thousands of resources or millions to just band-aid patch the issue.
  • Arcane energize despite PS4 market-chat degrading the value of everything, pretty much is still the expensive way to get free energy. Which does not really help in boss based content like eidolons and some might prefer Guardian and/or Grace or want to make use of gun-specific arcanes like arcane momentum in similar content.

Honestly, Madurai is only really used for eidolons and not much else content even demands its use of void strike. Naramon & Unairu might as well not exist since the former is mainly used for affinity gaining, typically focus farming, Unairu being even more nichie-wise for only eidolons since what else would you use the wisp for? Vazarin just barely gets 2nd place but still massively behind zenurik since its main appeals is the hp regen, the extra aff share range & instant rezzes of 8 times, 4 on your warframe and 4 on your operator. If each school had a actual USEFUL general reason to use them then the argument would not exist. You can`t really say any of the other 4 schools has any abilities just as useful as getting effectively bonus energy on orbs & energizing dash being a free 150 energy regen source.

1 hour ago, el_chanis said:

And yet somehow, you made an even more absurd comment right next to it. New guys have literally NOTHING right now. The focus tree (and more importantly, the energy node) is locked behind The War Within. Thats a lot of content to go through without any sort of help, with my method, they will have a passive source of energy. Again, can't see how you failed to realize the absurdity of this comment.

I can dig the idea of more reasons to go up in mastery and maybe bonus things would be nice to stand out better, getting further in any game should bring out substantial rewards that leave an impact, not just turn into another option that is likely just as mediocre as the last. Though it could turn into making the more toxic players get rather overpowered & may wish to flaunt it more rudely to others, so it might be nice if the effect was not too impactful. Maybe make your starting energy pool when you enter missions and board your archwing the first time each mission could be a good way for D.E. to test the waters on giving players who put the time in, get some rewards then just higher maximum capacities and what not. 

Other ideas i could think should be present is minor innate boosters which might scale up to +10~20% based on your MR, which i believe certain more recent games apply certain features which usually helps them on farming and what not but not be too strong to game break things. Certainly would be nice if there was a min-void trace base increase when doing fissures based on your Mr, since 3-30ish can be rather huge of a chance rate, when one wants to farm several hundred traces and already is some high MR player who may of farmed it plenty of times before.

Well, its ultimately up to D.E. on how they are going to expand on benefits for players who put in the effort to max things out. They at the very least make sure its not too huge of a buff to make things really unfair even if you are a high MR player, but at the very least sizable enough to make Veteran players feel like they are appreciated for staying so long with the game.

 

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2 hours ago, el_chanis said:

what would prevent you from using rage, pizzas, arcane energize and any other source of enery of your liking? How suddenly this became an issue when it isn't right now, with the agravating condition of being aviable in a single focus school? Im sorry, but this objection sounds incredibly absurd.

And yet somehow, you made an even more absurd comment right next to it. New guys have literally NOTHING right now. The focus tree (and more importantly, the energy node) is locked behind The War Within. Thats a lot of content to go through without any sort of help, with my method, they will have a passive source of energy. Again, can't see how you failed to realize the absurdity of this comment.

 

Cherry picking things out of context to complain about without reading an entire post does not give you a good argument. If you had bothered to to read through the multiple adjustments that would spread it out further the new guys would be better off than where *your* single stop shop would leave them. Because they'd have access to a slight drip from MR at 5+, a slight to moderate drip based on type of frame they are using from the very start, a somewhat improved Energy Siphon, etc. Meanwhile your suggestion is flat out MR 0 = zero and you have to grind mastery for a pittance of improvement per rank.

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2 minutes ago, CRCGamer said:

Cherry picking things out of context to complain about without reading an entire post does not give you a good argument. If you had bothered to to read through the multiple adjustments that would spread it out further the new guys would be better off than where *your* single stop shop would leave them. Because they'd have access to a slight drip from MR at 5+, a slight to moderate drip based on type of frame they are using from the very start, a somewhat improved Energy Siphon, etc. Meanwhile your suggestion is flat out MR 0 = zero and you have to grind mastery for a pittance of improvement per rank.

and yet i don't see how that would be better than my proposal. Btw... you have to grind mastery ANYWAYS. Unlike you are willing to buy every single prime access upfront, getting those sweet sweet primes are going to cost... A LOT. How exactly giving more incentive to Rank up would hurt the game?.

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Well when you consider that energizing dash has already been nerfed once to me more interactive and the other focus school just suck in general why do you go straight to nerfing and complicating things? It would be far easier to buff the other focus school nodes to be just as game changing in different ways like the overpowered void battery's the Tenno are meant to be. Not to mention the mastery grind is way worse then getting focus which also comes passively once you get to the point you unlock it and you could have all the basics in far less time. If your looking for an incentive to get people to want higher MR then suggest unique and exclusive perks instead of changing one that is perfectly fine where it is and long balanced by DE making it interactive instead of a lazy passive.

For example I would make some unique armor sets and operator cosmetics behind it that are of higher quality then anything else in the game even compared to the Tennogen. And if you really wanted to spice it up as you rank up your MR you could get some other statistical advantage like small percentages to your max energy pool, health and shields instead as an incentive. Then if that is really not enough make it so every 5 Mr you get you get a BONUS .2 energy regen a second maxing out at 1 energy a second by the time players hit max MR and keep focus intact as it stands.

You seem to think that having alot of energy in a game about using fun abilities as space ninjas to kill hordes of enemies while you slowly become a demigod through the different progression systems is a bad thing. When in fact it is the main vocal point and even if you did get Zenurik changed the vets would still have a massive advantage because basically infinite energy pizzas and you take that away from the newbies who would of gotten energizing dash way quicker then the maximum potential of your MR based system. It would only serve to be a slight deterrent to the veterans and make the gap between the vets and noobs even bigger while making everybody mad over something in a game that is meant to be a power fantasy. You are not holier then thou and based off of past experiences with you I can tell you are far less mature then me, so if you choose to reply be civil instead of lashing out with profanity be mature about it if you want to be taken seriously. People play this game to have fun and energy is the battery of that fun, if you want something complicated and hardcore go play a JRPG instead of changing balanced systems the devs have put into play and have a nice day tenno!

Edited by (XB1)Zweimander
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42 minutes ago, (XB1)Zweimander said:

Well when you consider that energizing dash has already been nerfed once to me more interactive and the other focus school just suck in general why do you go straight to nerfing and complicating things? It would be far easier to buff the other focus school nodes to be just as game changing in different ways like the overpowered void battery's the Tenno are meant to be.

1st. Energy will allways be a priority. Allways. That particular Zenurik node should be reworked, and passive energy regen moved away AND NERFED.

2nd. No, Tenno's are not meant to be warriors. We have warframes for that. No amount of rework on them will make their gameplay better than warframes.

42 minutes ago, (XB1)Zweimander said:

Not to mention the mastery grind is way worse then getting focus which also comes passively once you get to the point you unlock it and you could have all the basics in far less time

Good, thats the idea. Should be hard to get.

 

45 minutes ago, (XB1)Zweimander said:

You seem to think that having alot of energy in a game about using fun abilities as space ninjas to kill hordes of enemies while you slowly become a demigod through the different progression systems is a bad thing. When in fact it is the main vocal point and even if you did get Zenurik changed the vets would still have a massive advantage because basically infinite energy pizzas and you take that away from the newbies who would of gotten energizing dash way quicker then the maximum potential of your MR based system

Tough luck, Naramon lost the perma-invisibility. It had to go, and its gone. Same with zenurik.

 

43 minutes ago, (XB1)Zweimander said:

You are not holier then thou and based off of past experiences with you I can tell you are far less mature then me, so if you choose to reply be civil instead of lashing out with profanity be mature about it if you want to be taken seriously

I couldn't care less. 

 

Edited by el_chanis
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On 2019-07-19 at 6:12 PM, Test-995 said:

I don't want important things like this to tied with super grindy progressions like mastery ranks.

Except that Focus farming is arguably even grindier than MR farming (and both technically have the same "exp" source, unless you're using eidolon shards)

 

But yeah, overall I'd say a varying-level of base regen for each frame depending on how much casting their "expected" playstyle involves would be great, along with a slight across-the-board Max Energy boost (lots of caster frames don't have nearly as much as they should given how much their abilities cost at 100% efficiency). Not tied to MR or Focus. This, along with starting missions with max energy (or at least say 75% instead of the pittance we normally get) would do a lot toward making energy more manageable. The Zenurik focus would still be useful, but wouldn't feel nearly as "necessary" for many frames.

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10 minutes ago, IdrisQe said:

Except that Focus farming is arguably even grindier than MR farming (and both technically have the same "exp" source, unless you're using eidolon shards)

 

But yeah, overall I'd say a varying-level of base regen for each frame depending on how much casting their "expected" playstyle involves would be great, along with a slight across-the-board Max Energy boost (lots of caster frames don't have nearly as much as they should given how much their abilities cost at 100% efficiency). Not tied to MR or Focus. This, along with starting missions with max energy (or at least say 75% instead of the pittance we normally get) would do a lot toward making energy more manageable. The Zenurik focus would still be useful, but wouldn't feel nearly as "necessary" for many frames.

I'm not a fan of focus system neither, but still you can farm it without much of problem if you can hunt 1x3 eidolons every night, even without it it's not as grindy as MR farming because you don't need to build/purchase weapons, and able to bring maxed gears.

Base regen isn't something i'm against.

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On 2019-07-21 at 3:09 AM, Test-995 said:

 I'm not a fan of focus system neither, but still you can farm it without much of problem if you can hunt 1x3 eidolons every night, even without it it's not as grindy as MR farming because you don't need to build/purchase weapons, and able to bring maxed gears.

 Base regen isn't something i'm against.

it's far easier to grind MR than Focus, and far more engaging, given that gives you an actual incentive to try out new content. Focus is literaly, a grind. MR farming is far more spread out, in fact, is much easier to reach a high MR than a high focus, given the absurd disparity between mastery and focus ratio, and the need of lenses. Not only that, but focus punish you for not commiting, because unless you go straight for a single school, your focus will spread, while being able to use only one (and you won't unbound passives anytime soon farming that way either).

The way i see, the zenuik number is way to high AND Mastery has barely any benefit attached to it unless you are a heavy riven user, and even then, it only helps up to MR18. Giving an actual benefit for ranking would push the entire population up in the Mastery, and will also open up the choices in the schools.

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1 hour ago, el_chanis said:

it's far easier to grind MR than Focus, and far more engaging, given that gives you an actual incentive to try out new content. Focus is literaly, a grind. MR farming is far more spread out, in fact, is much easier to reach a high MR than a high focus, given the absurd disparity between mastery and focus ratio, and the need of lenses. Not only that, but focus punish you for not commiting, because unless you go straight for a single school, your focus will spread, while being able to use only one (and you won't unbound passives anytime soon farming that way either).

The way i see, the zenuik number is way to high AND Mastery has barely any benefit attached to it unless you are a heavy riven user, and even then, it only helps up to MR18. Giving an actual benefit for ranking would push the entire population up in the Mastery, and will also open up the choices in the schools.

MR is something you can't passively grind, focus is something you can gain passively, and if you decide to actively grind, then maxing out energizing dash is extremely easier than MR farming.

You only need 466k to get maxed energizing dash, that's about 4 hydrolist capture, less than a day right?

If it was MR locked thing, you have to wait for a day for each MR, and that's the best case, usually you can't afford that much of resource/plat/affinities to achieve highest efficiency.

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11 minutes ago, Test-995 said:

MR is something you can't passively grind, focus is something you can gain passively, and if you decide to actively grind, then maxing out energizing dash is extremely easier than MR farming.

You only need 466k to get maxed energizing dash, that's about 4 hydrolist capture, less than a day right?

 If it was MR locked thing, you have to wait for a day for each MR, and that's the best case, usually you can't afford that much of resource/plat/affinities to achieve highest efficiency.

that would be a side benefinit. I already stated that energizing dash is, in my opinion, OP. I, also, think the energy regen should be earned slowly, increasingly on a steady pace. Both things are achieved tiding it the regen with the MR. Going from zero energy to "lol, what's energy?" it's bad. Should be a slow climb in proficency and eficacy, like mods and endo are at the begining of the game. This would also give the veterans a new incentive to keep playing if they didn't mastered all what it's aviable in the game yet.

Zenurik NEEDS to loose that node entirely. Is far too strong, not only campared to the other schoos, but on itself. 5 energy/s is incredibly powerfull. In fact, even if DE combines all the other schools in one, i would still take zenurik without a trace of a doubt. The extra energy from orbs is already good enough to get this broken mechanic on top of it. My suggestion would tone it down by almost a half, and also open the possibilites for the other schools.

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On 2019-07-22 at 9:24 PM, el_chanis said:

that would be a side benefinit. I already stated that energizing dash is, in my opinion, OP. I, also, think the energy regen should be earned slowly, increasingly on a steady pace. Both things are achieved tiding it the regen with the MR. Going from zero energy to "lol, what's energy?" it's bad. Should be a slow climb in proficency and eficacy, like mods and endo are at the begining of the game. This would also give the veterans a new incentive to keep playing if they didn't mastered all what it's aviable in the game yet.

Zenurik NEEDS to loose that node entirely. Is far too strong, not only campared to the other schoos, but on itself. 5 energy/s is incredibly powerfull. In fact, even if DE combines all the other schools in one, i would still take zenurik without a trace of a doubt. The extra energy from orbs is already good enough to get this broken mechanic on top of it. My suggestion would tone it down by almost a half, and also open the possibilites for the other schools.

I'm afraid all that would do is make people stand still and dash more often. It would only make it more annoying to reduce the energy/s gain. Currently a lot of Zenurik use already consists of sitting around waiting while that energy/s slowly raises.

Nevermind Unairu's (or was it Madurai's?) dash, which near-instantly heals a massive amount of health to anything it hits (rather than needing to wait) AND gives several seconds of complete invincibility, which is pretty insane. That's the only other Focus I'd probably choose at the moment. A friend of mine uses it and it's invaluable for squishier frames that don't have self-regen of some form, and for any kind of objective you need to keep alive.

 

I still think a passive regen would be the best way to go about this, as well as a more proportional mission-start energy. Alternatively, maybe making it so dashing through enemies and void-blasting and stuff with Operator restores Warframe energy (fun fact: Op-Dashing through enemies DOES restore energy... to your Operator only... though this may be a Zenurik thing, I've not checked), so some interactivity is still required, but no focus school is needed, and it's less of a wait-for-the-bar-to-fill situation and more of an active "do stuff to get enery back" deal.

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1 hour ago, IdrisQe said:

I'm afraid all that would do is make people stand still and dash more often. It would only make it more annoying to reduce the energy/s gain. Currently a lot of Zenurik use already consists of sitting around waiting while that energy/s slowly raises.

 

what? how having passive regen would force dashing? There are plenty of dashing right now already, wich btw gives a 30s bonus to energy regen (thats the OP part of it).

 

1 hour ago, IdrisQe said:

I still think a passive regen would be the best way to go about this,

Thats exactly what im proposing. I don't get what are you talking about. Having energy regen tied to MR literally means passive regen, wich gets higher the higher your MR, with the added bonus of "built-in" nerf, given that it will only reach 3/s max (and as it is right now, only 2.7).

 

1 hour ago, IdrisQe said:

fun fact: Op-Dashing through enemies DOES restore energy... to your Operator only... though this may be a Zenurik thing, I've not checked)

to both Operator AND FRAME, thats why Zenurik is fckng OP. There is no reason whatsoever to get any other school given that the absolute most powerfull mechanic in the game (warframe abilites) are facilitated so much in one option, while the others have to pretend that they do something. Fun fact? The energy node is so easy to reach that you can max it in the first 300k focus you get.

1 hour ago, IdrisQe said:

it's less of a wait-for-the-bar-to-fill situation and more of an active "do stuff to get enery back" deal.

This could be an option as well, my only complain with this approach is that new players are completely out of it. They won't reach it untill War Within, and thats a lot of content to go through without any sort of consistent energy source.

Edited by el_chanis
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