RAIDS!?!

[Ikyr0]

Have to wait and see. DE has repeatedly failed to deliver content that is both challenging and fun. Current enemy design doesn't require roles, just nuking. Really, we need Enemies 2.0 for raids to work, otherwise I don't see it going well.

Edited July 20, 2019 by Ikyr0

[(PSN)tissot555]

On 2019-07-19 at 12:04 PM, 844448 said:

the "classes" you mentioned is way very old fashioned because you only see them in a boxed view when warframes can take multiple roles with no problems. You want a tank, healer and support at the same time? Trinity and Nezha do these jobs well, even rhino that people used to see as a tank works as tank, area control, and support so conventional mmo team setup is not something hard coded

I don't want to box them in completely, but i'd like team composition to be at the forefront of raids. I mean think about it, the only thing that matters now is dps, it's a bit boring at times. 

[(XBOX)Timidobserver]

One thing I really disliked about Anthem was making dungeons group only activities. I'd be okay if raids were had mechanics that can be completed with any number of people, but more efficiently with a group. On the topic of group composition, the caveat I'd add is making the raid reward scale with the number of different frames you've used to complete the "raid" within X timespan. 

[EmberStar]

6 minutes ago, (XB1)Timidobserver said:

One thing I really disliked about Anthem was making dungeons group only activities. I'd be okay if raids were had mechanics that can be completed with any number of people, but more efficiently with a group. On the topic of group composition, the caveat I'd add is making the raid reward scale with the number of different frames you've used to complete the "raid" within X timespan. 

What really irked me about Anthem was the mixed signals their whole UI sent.  There was a solo mode... that you could literally only use for story missions.  Want to do the "free roam" or any of the dungeon areas?  "Oh, you seem to have made a mistake and selected stupid... we mean Solo mode.  We've reset your teaming to Public Random.  You're welcome."  I can only imagine that the reason they included a solo mode at all was only because so many people were going to spacebar through the story.  So the solo mode existed ONLY for people who actually cared and wanted to see the cutscenes.  They clearly didn't intend for anyone to use it in normal gameplay, ever.

[844448]

2 hours ago, (PS4)tissot555 said:

I don't want to box them in completely, but i'd like team composition to be at the forefront of raids. I mean think about it, the only thing that matters now is dps, it's a bit boring at times. 

Not really, you still need support like trinity to help the dps survive with damage reduction or area control

[WhySoFishy]

I mean, they can definitely work, Destiny proved this way back in 2013. The problem is (here comes the theoretical downvotes) the majority of the Warframe community is too casual for them and probably wouldn't enjoy them. Destiny's raids are quite difficult and complex and almost always require voice comms. Honestly, look at all the content that has come out in Warframe. 99% of it is based around the idea of casual play, which is ok, but it really does put more hardcore veterans to the side compared to its competitors (like Destiny). This is part of the reason why veteran player retention in Warframe is historically bad.

Edited July 21, 2019 by WhySoFishy

[844448]

10 minutes ago, WhySoFishy said:

I mean, they can definitely work, Destiny proved this way back in 2013. The problem is (here comes the theoretical downvotes) the majority of the Warframe community is too casual for them and probably wouldn't enjoy them. Destiny's raids are quite difficult and complex and almost always require voice comms. Honestly, look at all the content that has come out in Warframe. 99% of it is based around the idea of casual play, which is ok, but it really does put more hardcore veterans to the side compared to its competitors (like Destiny). This is part of the reason why veteran player retention in Warframe is historically bad.

You missed other things, we are not war machines that wipe out an entire battalion like nothing while you're struggling with 10 enemies on field in destiny and we can fit multiple classes. Take rhino for example, he has titan's tankiness, warlock's damage boost, and hunter's mobility with warframe parkour. What else do you need?

[TinFoilMkIV]

23 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

The difference is that Lunaro and Conclave in general requires minimal upkeep. Raids however needed alot of upkeep, so it was just smoother to remove them since their use was so low. This is also not the first arpg where this has happened regarding raids and probably wont be the last either.

Just as warframe isnt suited for raids and never have been, even prior to the massive power creep. There are several things they can do to make worthwhile bosses, they simply need to scale them properly and give them punishing attacks. Attacks that will not only punish normal frames, but attacks that will punish Revenant, Nezha, Rhino etc. if they get hit. Things that will force you to evade and not just facetank because your skill will save you 15 times in a row. Lets say an attack, that if it hits it completely removes your buffs and sets them on a CD (not a long one but still). This attack would also be graphed so you would have a chance to evade, it would also have a cooldown so it wouldnt be spammed, I mean like real boss fights have. What we currently have in WF is inflated regular damage on everything.

The first part was my original point. The abnormally high upkeep was the main problem and most likely real reason Raids got pulled. Popularity was almost certainly a factor, but not the main one. Your original statement made it sound as if the population was the only reason Raids got removed.

 

For the boss ideas. You're correct in theory. But there are too many outliers currently. Such as your example of a buff stripping attack to threaten tanky frames. Why should Inaros, and possibly Nidus, give a damn about that sort of attack? What's to stop the ideal squad from just becoming those frames and whatever weapon kills it the best with some healing source thrown in for good measure? You put enough power behind it to threaten Inaros? May as well make it an auto kill attack, because that's what it will be against every other warframe.

It seems like these sort of attempts end up having to devolve into generally unfun mechanics in order to get past the ridiculous levels that players can push their performance to. I believe that we'd need major rebalancing and an overall nerf to player power to have much hope for making a highly challenging encounter that wasn't full of cheap unfair mechanics. Either that or some very creative solutions that I have yet to come across. It may be possible. But I think reigning in player capability is a more realistic and method to achieve it. And I don't expect that to happen anytime soon if ever.

[Ham_Grenabe]

I think they should blatantly rip-off the Dungeon idea from destiny 2. Small “raid-lite” adventures, instead of what we consider “full raids.” (Granted, Destiny2 only manages to create one such dungeon, but it was better than any of the D2 raids).

And tons of them. Release one every month for a year kind of quantity. 

[SneakyErvin]

1 hour ago, TinFoilMkIV said:

The first part was my original point. The abnormally high upkeep was the main problem and most likely real reason Raids got pulled. Popularity was almost certainly a factor, but not the main one. Your original statement made it sound as if the population was the only reason Raids got removed.

 

For the boss ideas. You're correct in theory. But there are too many outliers currently. Such as your example of a buff stripping attack to threaten tanky frames. Why should Inaros, and possibly Nidus, give a damn about that sort of attack? What's to stop the ideal squad from just becoming those frames and whatever weapon kills it the best with some healing source thrown in for good measure? You put enough power behind it to threaten Inaros? May as well make it an auto kill attack, because that's what it will be against every other warframe.

It seems like these sort of attempts end up having to devolve into generally unfun mechanics in order to get past the ridiculous levels that players can push their performance to. I believe that we'd need major rebalancing and an overall nerf to player power to have much hope for making a highly challenging encounter that wasn't full of cheap unfair mechanics. Either that or some very creative solutions that I have yet to come across. It may be possible. But I think reigning in player capability is a more realistic and method to achieve it. And I don't expect that to happen anytime soon if ever.

Ah yeah I can see how it may have come across as that. 

Regarding Inaros. It would probably just one of several different attacks. This attack would be punishing for frames relying on buffs. Then there could be another with massive damage output (possibly with a high auto slash and viral proc) and a no-healing debuff for 3 seconds or something. There are plenty of things they could do to make different aspects dangerous in different ways for different frames. 

[TinFoilMkIV]

52 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Ah yeah I can see how it may have come across as that. 

Regarding Inaros. It would probably just one of several different attacks. This attack would be punishing for frames relying on buffs. Then there could be another with massive damage output (possibly with a high auto slash and viral proc) and a no-healing debuff for 3 seconds or something. There are plenty of things they could do to make different aspects dangerous in different ways for different frames. 

Sure. But anything that's a threat to Inaros will be instant death to any other frame. Then on the boss's end, you're going to need some form of damage gating to stop it from getting disintegrate by say, Chroma shooting through a volt shield. Or some other such combination of damage boosts. If you don't do that, then any team comp that doesn't have stacking damage bonuses won't be able to scratch the thing.

As I said before. I don't think it's impossible, but it's not nearly that simple to design an encounter without several major loopholes. I bet any encounter you can come up with can have some weakness found that completely trivializes it, found within an hour. And it would be for no fault of your own. Not unless you resort to wide range power immunity/disabling and outright invulnerability and other such absolute protection.

And that's essentially the problem with difficulty in Warframe currently.

Edited July 21, 2019 by TinFoilMkIV

[Lost_Cartographer]

Currently, the best hope for raids is probably railjack where we'll need 2 railjacks to destroy a small fleet of Grineer galleons and Corpus frigates.

A lot of what is keeping raids off the table is because we grow exponentially stronger the more Tenno are present, they quickly become trivialized unless you have BS mechanics ad nauseum.  At least with Railjack, it turns into a game of spreading manpower around to perform various tasks separately, but towards a common goal.

[(XBOX)Furious Kaiser]

I submitted this a while back to the fan concepts forum:

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1100817-mission-idea-galleon-salvage/?tab=comments#comment-10809231

 

Edited July 21, 2019 by (XB1)Furious Kaiser
first post of link turned out awful

[SneakyErvin]

3 hours ago, TinFoilMkIV said:

Sure. But anything that's a threat to Inaros will be instant death to any other frame. Then on the boss's end, you're going to need some form of damage gating to stop it from getting disintegrate by say, Chroma shooting through a volt shield. Or some other such combination of damage boosts. If you don't do that, then any team comp that doesn't have stacking damage bonuses won't be able to scratch the thing.

As I said before. I don't think it's impossible, but it's not nearly that simple to design an encounter without several major loopholes. I bet any encounter you can come up with can have some weakness found that completely trivializes it, found within an hour. And it would be for no fault of your own. Not unless you resort to wide range power immunity/disabling and outright invulnerability and other such absolute protection.

And that's essentially the problem with difficulty in Warframe currently.

There are always solutions. Something that may impact Inaros massively may impact others less, it may be an attack that does 90% less damage to anything with a shield, pretty much how corrosive is piss poor versus shielded enemies in a game such as Borderlands 2. All such mechanics and penalties seen in other games can be good sources of inspiration.

Damage gating would obviously be a thing, or more active defenses. DE just needs to balance it around where they know out top end is when it comes to damage output. Our damage currently isnt the main issue, the real issues is DE not wanting to rework the scaling system of enemies, so they'll always be paperbags with a hidden nuke inside.

[TinFoilMkIV]

17 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

There are always solutions. Something that may impact Inaros massively may impact others less, it may be an attack that does 90% less damage to anything with a shield, pretty much how corrosive is piss poor versus shielded enemies in a game such as Borderlands 2. All such mechanics and penalties seen in other games can be good sources of inspiration.

Damage gating would obviously be a thing, or more active defenses. DE just needs to balance it around where they know out top end is when it comes to damage output. Our damage currently isnt the main issue, the real issues is DE not wanting to rework the scaling system of enemies, so they'll always be paperbags with a hidden nuke inside.

I think you underestimate the level of BS we can pull off. For example. Being able to boost damage that's so low that it doesn't even display, to the point where it's murdering level 260 enemies, seen here.

 

[Autongnosis]

il y a 14 minutes, TinFoilMkIV a dit :

I think you underestimate the level of BS we can pull off. 

I fully agree. Tbh past giving higher levels easier access and messing with nightmare and sortie modifiers, to have properly challenging content we'd need a complete balance pass starting from the damage system to mods to weapon stats to warframe abilities, basically a reconstruction of the whole game. 

People tend to forget or not know just how much we can do currently. There are many team comps that can facetank level cap enemies. And I'm not joking. They can literally sit in the face of lv 9999 and not die. Let alone for the bullS#&$ melees can pull off offensively. 

[(PSN)GbHaseo]

As others have said, we really are just too overpowered, and many systems need to reworked for raids to be viable, and the playerbase isn't there for the amount of time on DE's part. Iirc I think what 2% of the base played the raids, the dedicated community was maybe 1 or .5%.. Those numbers might actually be smaller.

They were buggy, and required tons of upkeep by the devs. DE is notorious for using spaghetti code, and they just caused a lot of issues over stuff like conclave and Lunaro. It was deemed raids just didn't justify the dev cost and resources.

Even Destiny has huge issues with their raids.. as players requested to get stronger, and less bullet sponge type enemies, they've had to rely more on mechanics. D2 raids have so much more mechanics to D1, they're just not as fun to many and too intimidating.. last I checked Last Wish raid had 2.9% completion on console, compared to 10% of Leviathan, and 19% on VoG and LW just requires ppl to cheese the final boss, and they can't be asked to do that. Then you add toxicity, where then ppl only wanna play with ppl who have beaten it 60000 times, with crazy team requirements.

Ppl want to just hop into activities in a game, with whatever they love and be viable. 

Then there's the issue of rewards, the truth is there's really nothing they can come out with that's going to entice vet players like other games, the game just isn't setup for it. Arcanes were moved, super powerful weapons we already got, ppl could farm them to sell, but non-raiders are gonna get mad about it and complain. Even when DE tried adding Ephemera as a rare drop to bosses to entice vets, those vets then complained about them being too rare. There's no win.. 

Warframe is power fantasy, and farming. It's fine, I still love it, it just is what it is. I play different games for different things. I play Warframe for over the top fun, and Destiny, or Elder Scrolls Online for my raiding/trials.

When a Tennocon vid gets more ppl playing than any actual content drops has, well that's why DE puts resources where it does. They're also working on stuff like the new engine tweaks bc new consoles are coming. There's just only so many resources they have available. 

Hope they come back one day, just not betting on it.

[IIDMOII]

I hope raids don't come back. But I suppose it depends on the implementation.

I've never played a game with raids that wasn't terrible. If by "raid" you mean; content that forces people to segregate into groups on voice chat to over come stupid puzzles/mechanics , then I hope they don't come back. Ever.

If by "raid" you mean; all the best rewards will be locked behind it. Then I'll pass.

Basically, if I wanted to raid and all the B.S. that comes with it, id go back to other games.