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Integra.

Horde shooter forever?

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I don't mind the horde mentality, but I like these types of games (obviously).

Though DE could learn from games like Borderlands on proper enemy scaling to level to give challenges. The issue with Warframe doing that, though is that we don't have "levels". Rank 30 isn't a level, it's just a mod limit. MR isn't a level, it's a joke. Enemies go up in level, but Players do not. THAT is a conflict that will prevent proper scaling until DE finally admits it.....so never. Just like every other game company with that issue.

It's game designers wanting to make the game a challenge, but still allow new players to get there quickly so they don't get bored/frustrated and leave. ie, to work for that "high level". The killer of every game out there today is making games designed for people who don't want to put any effort into the play. Like introducing auto-block in Warframe when all DE needed to do was remove the weapon swap time. Now builds around Sword/Shield melee are worthless, as are the mods that go with it. (One example here folks, don't dwell on that one fact like a lot of trolls will want to do.)

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2 hours ago, Integra. said:

why do first answering people always defend what is kinda bad about game and say this is a feature?

Because its the type of game?

Its the same as asking if CoD will stay an Arcade FPS. If Minecraft will stay a builder sandbox. If Ace Combat will stay a flight combat...

Its the genre of the game. Same as Dinasty Warriors, it never changed from a Horde game.

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18 minutes ago, RX-3DR said:

EDF is a good example to learn enemy variety from. You can have 30 something bugs on screen or 4 aliens that can do more damage than the 30 bugs if not dealt with properly.

But people are too busy trying to pretend that games only exist in a pure binary state, that you can only have 20 easily invalidated enemies, or it has to be 5 Wolf of Saturn Six and everything in-between is somehow completely impossible.

Thank you!

A horde shooter and reasonable game design are not mutually exclusive. Being able to entirely invalidate enemies and 'solve' combat messes up everything. It means that new tilesets don't matter because new terrain doesn't really change how you fight and it makes rewarding the player difficult or impossible. What do you give somebody who's already 'solved' combat? Another way to do it? Anything less is worthless to them.

It  compromises loot and it compromises combat. In a game about fighting things and looting stuff, that's a considerable issue.

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1 hour ago, RX-3DR said:

EDF is a good example to learn enemy variety from. You can have 30 something bugs on screen or 4 aliens that can do more damage than the 30 bugs if not dealt with properly.

But people are too busy trying to pretend that games only exist in a pure binary state, that you can only have 20 easily invalidated enemies, or it has to be 5 Wolf of Saturn Six and everything in-between is somehow completely impossible.

EDF is certainly a good argument because it is a horde shooter where you can mow through hundreds of ants with ease. But despite that, the game is still surprisingly challenging (when playing on Hardest or Inferno with level locked weapons). Unlike Warframe, EDF's challenge comes through its war of attrition. Sure, you've beaten the first 2 waves, but how much longer can you hold out? And they don't have to resort to making the waves necessarily harder than the previous. It's more that as the battle drags on, your squad may break formation and things start going downhill from there. Plus it is a bit of a puzzle game. Each mission presents a problem and you and your squad have to equip complimentary loadouts and adapt strategies to beat it.

But Warframe doesn't have that sort of challenge. I think you can more attribute it to the fact that Warframe doesn't know what it wants to be. It doesn't know whether it wants challenging content or mindless content.

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Eidolon, Orb,  Thumper, Arachne and Sortie are exactly the kind of  content you are asking for.

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vor 4 Stunden schrieb Chewarette:

Why tf would we struggle to kill flesh-cloned workforce with negative IQ or traders ?

Because overcoming struggle is fun to lots of players (and arguably the point of any game really, at least to a certain degree). And entertainment aspects outweigh lore in game design.

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3 minutes ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

.... And entertainment aspects outweigh lore in game design.

If that is in conflict the design is bad.

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1 hour ago, RX-3DR said:

EDF is a good example to learn enemy variety from. You can have 30 something bugs on screen or 4 aliens that can do more damage than the 30 bugs if not dealt with properly.

But people are too busy trying to pretend that games only exist in a pure binary state, that you can only have 20 easily invalidated enemies, or it has to be 5 Wolf of Saturn Six and everything in-between is somehow completely impossible.

I have a reason why people choose, or pretend that games only exist in pure binary state. Maybe we want to remember something like that melee nullifier that people cry about because that one deals more damage to you than 50 corpus crewmen

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The opinion will differ forever so the game will be never satisfying enough to everyone. In my opinion the game started as a hordeshooter with slight difficulties but in time it became more casual friendly because the target audience is greater with this.

The easiest solution would be a difficulty option to be added to the game where you can use modifiers how strong the enemies start, how many, what places they could came from and what gear you able to use. This would satisfy the different players because everyone could choose the difficulity what they want to play.

For this the devs still need to adjust the AI and tactics on each level so minimum 3 times needs to adjust the AI on levels so on easy "am I mad?" normal level could be the current one, the medium could be a stronger AI opponent and more tactical enemies and the hard could be a larger amount of stronger AI opponents which can spawn minibosses also but for this the devs need to make at least 10-15 types of minibosses to each faction.

With this they can achieve to satisfy the most of the playerbase but then they could create troubles aswell. I can point out some.

First - If they add a harder AI and more tactical option to the enemies even they can mod their weapons aswell "RIP to us" the majority of the playerbase would leave the game instant or cry how hard the mode they added. The skills can be trained in these modes but the majority want to be gods.

Second - If all the veteran and advanced player just choose harder difficulities then the rest and new players cannot be taxied and even more player will leave the game because the tutors also leave the easier levels so the new players need to do all the carrying alone which can be positive but also can be negative affects.

Making a harder AI means more coding time and it needs to be optimised also applied to eavery game mode ( we will see in railjack how it plays ) and they need to be sure the more you stay the better the rewards and difficulity are. It should be paired otherwise if you make a challenging game with bad rewards or you just mean the reward is you are challenged then most of the playerbase also leave and never will coming back. Catering a relatively small amount of playerbase whom will possibly play that challenging mode is basically wasting the rescources like conclave which in theory could be nice but the community hates the pvp mode "because that could be challenging". The irony is everything what meant to be challenging is scrapped or watered to fit to the game philosophy.

Also not every Veteran player " I am not veteran in that meaning " wish to be challenged but wants a content amount what can keeps them interested in playing but if you work on a quest about 1 year in reality that means in best 1-5 hour extra content depending on how the developers long it.

My opinion the game is good as it is and I like in this way but a slightly more challenge or replayable content with various results would be nice.

Just my humble opinion also sorry for my grammar. 

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4 hours ago, Integra. said:

Will Warframe stay as it is forever? Are there any plans of making game modes with fewer but fat and strong enemies? Shooting hordes of enemies is fun but for a while and in warframe there is no much need in a single target weapons since you need to damage the area most of the time. 
I wish there were some missions where you fight much less enemies but for example Eximus (not a horde of eximus) so that it takes the whole team to concentrate fire for a while to take it down to proceed. 
Same with defences - end of the wave - 1-4 tough enemies appear, end of wave 5 - miniboss. etc.

It's definitely a long-time request that at the end of, say, every 5 waves/minutes on endless missions, we get a mini-boss kind of enemy to fight.

47 minutes ago, Monlex said:

Eidolon, Orb,  Thumper, Arachne and Sortie are exactly the kind of  content you are asking for.

Sorties can be soloed, and are just high-level horde missions, so no, not really.

Not sure what you mean by "Arachne"

But the rest, yeah. We are getting big boss fights.

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23 minutes ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

Because overcoming struggle is fun to lots of players (and arguably the point of any game really, at least to a certain degree). And entertainment aspects outweigh lore in game design.

Yeah, but games can also be stress balls, which is exactly what Warframe is at the moment. Different games have different mentalities, and Warframe's stress ball one isn't detrimental to itself. The problem is not the game itself, it's that people come in with different expectations and get disappointed by reality clashing with their own made-up image, but don't want to accept that reality because... reasons.

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3 hours ago, Wyrmius_Prime said:

Horde shooters can be fun when enemies do not die in a single shot or if at least some sort of strats were needed to kill anything but some of the bosses in this game. It's really hard to ''struggle'' against any number of enemies in this game when half of the Warframe are completely invincible.

You forgot one thing, being invincible is part of the warframe as the genre now unless you don't mind having that power taken away like this thread I made, which not everyone agrees with

 

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Chroma will make short job of it. Even without Chroma our weapons will probably still capable to take out enemies 5x stronger than in starchart with ease.

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1 hour ago, Gabbynaru said:

Yeah, but games can also be stress balls, which is exactly what Warframe is at the moment. Different games have different mentalities, and Warframe's stress ball one isn't detrimental to itself. The problem is not the game itself, it's that people come in with different expectations and get disappointed by reality clashing with their own made-up image, but don't want to accept that reality because... reasons.

...you think overcoming a challenging boss fight that actually takes effort doesn't count as stress relief?

The cathartic satisfaction that comes from such a victory does not compare to the mindless chillzone that is a horde shooter.

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12 minutes ago, DrakeWurrum said:

...you think overcoming a challenging boss fight that actually takes effort doesn't count as stress relief?

The cathartic satisfaction that comes from such a victory does not compare to the mindless chillzone that is a horde shooter.

Not to me, no. The satisfaction of beating a boss in Dark Souls doesn't suddenly relieve me of all the stress that built up during the fight. They are two different things that act separately. Yeah, I beat a boss in Dark Souls, but if I had trouble with it (Ornstein and Smough, for example), I will then have to relax with something such as Euro Truck Sim 2 or Warframe or a warm bath to release that stress, else I'll just get more and more frustrated for no reason whatsoever. Unless I distract it, my brain will just keep replaying that fight in my head, trying to figure out what I did wrong and how to do better. That's just how I function, nothing I can do about it.

So Warframe is a stress ball to me, while Dark Souls or fighting Lu Bu in Dynasty Warriors is not.

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6 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

About lvl 80 to 120 is where I think a well modded tenno would find it just right. 

Depends on the weapons and warframe you're using.  Durable Warframes can take the punishment, but fragile frames rely on shutting the enemy down, at which point level doesn't matter.  A warframe like Ember isn't going anywhere past 40 without difficulty (no armor, no excessive health or shielding, no way to reduce or control incoming damage... literal tissue paper.)  The only reason an MKI Braton could go beyond level 40 is because of outside means of bolstering its damage considerably, but it still pales next to the Braton Prime.

I'd say the game is largely designed around 40-60 being "standard upper-medium" before our rabid abuse of powers kick in.  It's also right about the point where most Warframes first abilities (the one's we were initially intended to spam) really begin to fall off even with power strength mods.

Also, cell size matters.  Our capabilities grow exponentially with each additional Tenno in a cell.

 

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35 minutes ago, Lost_Cartographer said:

Depends on the weapons and warframe you're using.  Durable Warframes can take the punishment, but fragile frames rely on shutting the enemy down, at which point level doesn't matter.  A warframe like Ember isn't going anywhere past 40 without difficulty (no armor, no excessive health or shielding, no way to reduce or control incoming damage... literal tissue paper.)  The only reason an MKI Braton could go beyond level 40 is because of outside means of bolstering its damage considerably, but it still pales next to the Braton Prime.

I'd say the game is largely designed around 40-60 being "standard upper-medium" before our rabid abuse of powers kick in.  It's also right about the point where most Warframes first abilities (the one's we were initially intended to spam) really begin to fall off even with power strength mods.

Also, cell size matters.  Our capabilities grow exponentially with each additional Tenno in a cell.

 

poor example , as ember is pretty poor on many accounts when it comes to tackling enemies, i can use octavia and go much higher if needed and still face the same level of challenge. if we argue basis of individual frames and their abilities we will be arguing for days.

(but i have managed a kuva survival solo with ember just fine - emphasis on "fine" other frames will do better as not all frames are equal)

When i mentioned "well modded" it was implied that he would not intentionally gimp himself with mk-1 or starter weapons, once again a poor example highlighting that a weapon itself is weak.

40 to 60 really does not feel any different than level 20 to 30 if i am honest , the enemies really do have more damage and can easily kill an unprepared tenno , but they die too fast to be a real threat.

cell size does matters assuming all members of the cell know how to use their frame effectively and don't actually get in each others way.

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A lot of people waking up finally and defending their point of view that things need to change. Good job warframe community! 

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Mini bosses wouldn’t be too bad a idea. Something like super versions of bursas  or that big infested thing or the grineer dudes with the big sticks or the Kuva Fat Boys.

 

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Yes, horde shooter forever. “Endgame” as the industry currently envisions it is vastly overrated. 

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3 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

40 to 60 really does not feel any different than level 20 to 30 if i am honest , the enemies really do have more damage and can easily kill an unprepared tenno , but they die too fast to be a real threat.

This is the part that's anecdotal.  If you want to META the hell out of the game then yeah, it won't feel much different killing them.  Taking hits though it's a fair amount of difference.  But if you lock down everything with CC, 1 or 1000, it doesn't matter, we're talking how many shots it takes to kill target dummies at that point.

And for what it's worth, DE keep pushing out content that caps around the 40-60 range with anything beyond that being a special case/"elite" mode for a reason.  If most people were comfortably handling level 80-120 content, DE would be comfortably designing around that.  Except they're not.  Either too many people are struggling past 40-60 or too many people just aren't interested in building for beyond that range and I can't blame them.  Fun first.  It's no secret skill falls to the wayside and Warframe turns into a game of math and mechanics before too long.

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We need more enemies like the Wolf, Demolysts, and beefy Orb Vallis Corpus soldiers. Tough bullet sponges who can occasionally one-shot you if you're not paying attention is still part of the power fantasy, contrary to popular belief. It's something to make you at least think about your build a little bit.

Power fantasy gameplay doesn't have to be brainless. Ultimately, there needs to be a reason for all this power creep. I'm ok with retaining horde shooter mechanics but there must be lieutenants/mini bosses for either a gear check or skill checks. Otherwise people will just keep afk'ing content like they are now. 

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12 hours ago, Integra. said:

kinda bad

Who told you that Warframe is a good game? 

Do you really want to tell people who spent a lot of their time on idle clicker games that they're playing "bad" games? (Rhetorical question, you might in some cases)

You might want to read those WF forum hema threads and see how sunk cost fallacy created a feedback loop of people defending pointless grinding.

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9 hours ago, Lost_Cartographer said:

This is the part that's anecdotal.  If you want to META the hell out of the game then yeah, it won't feel much different killing them.  Taking hits though it's a fair amount of difference.  But if you lock down everything with CC, 1 or 1000, it doesn't matter, we're talking how many shots it takes to kill target dummies at that point.

Yup, powercreep really shows its effects here. DE makes weapons that can take out lvl 40 to 60 enemies easily (with enough investment of forma and mods) but the survivability of most frames (from perspective of taking actual damage) cannot keep up with enemies beyond it. Adding skill (or abilities) to the mix so you never actually take a hit kinda skews the results, (if you can manage lvl 40 to 60 with a banshee without health mods you can pretty much manage anywhere at any level.) So those with sufficient skill (and Meta builds) find these levels trivial, and only find a challenge when they hit bullet sponges that themselves can take hits. I personally would be fine if they rebalanced the things so the 40-60 enemies are actually a challenge (Nerf weapons or buff enemies take a pick) 

 

9 hours ago, Lost_Cartographer said:

And for what it's worth, DE keep pushing out content that caps around the 40-60 range with anything beyond that being a special case/"elite" mode for a reason.  If most people were comfortably handling level 80-120 content, DE would be comfortably designing around that.  Except they're not.  Either too many people are struggling past 40-60 or too many people just aren't interested in building for beyond that range and I can't blame them.  Fun first.  It's no secret skill falls to the wayside and Warframe turns into a game of math and mechanics before too long.

Everybody knows DE doesn't play its own game 😛

There are many types of players,

Players that quit even before competing the star chart. 

players that are perfectly happy with adequate means to clear the star chart and stay there. 

Players that like to play at sortie level. 

Players that feel that missions that do not last hours is not worth playing. 

Obviously there will be a difference in player count - I am not sure i do not have the exact numbers, but since DE is still a business they will cater to the larger population, minorities are not a priority. 

Which is fine, it's a solid business decision,

but do you remember when alerts on orb vallis were pretty tough even at level 40? These were pretty good on difficulty, nullifiers, agile units, hard hitting enemies. And they get nerfed cause it wad considered difficult for new players (i was strongly opposed to having Fortuna on venus, the difficulty is more suited to pluto) . So it is clear that they can do challenges within lvl 60, they simply prefer if the "challenge" is not challenging enough for people to overcome with non optimized load outs.

Enemy Level is not the problem. 

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