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Integra.

Horde shooter forever?

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Look, it's Diablo philosophy here.

The whole point isn't that there arn't any challenges, the whole point is how quickly and efficiently can you mow down the enemies. It's diablo - with space ninjas, and it's hella fun, and diablo is all about META for endgame, just like warframe. Here is the thing about meta, it's not about challenge, it's about efficiency.

You got nearly infinite variety of customization, if you want something interesting to play stop using cookie cutter meta builds and try something unique. When was the last time you played a non-meta frame?  I don't want DE to sacrifice our great deal of variety so some handful of players who got carried to end game and play strictly meta builds complain how easy the game is.

 

 

 

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21 hours ago, Chewarette said:

We're playing as War Machines designed to remove the Sentient threat from the Universe.

Why tf would we struggle to kill flesh-cloned workforce with negative IQ or traders ?

You done did it now.

21 hours ago, Wyrmius_Prime said:

Why is 90% of the game filled with enemies who aren't a threat to anyone? Why are we killing these innocent noobs instead of having challenging content?

Because warframe isnt meant to be dark souls or halo or gears of war. If you want more challenging enemies reduce the power of your mods. Problem solved.

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1 hour ago, guartz said:

Look, it's Diablo philosophy here.

The whole point isn't that there arn't any challenges, the whole point is how quickly and efficiently can you mow down the enemies. It's diablo - with space ninjas, and it's hella fun, and diablo is all about META for endgame, just like warframe. Here is the thing about meta, it's not about challenge, it's about efficiency.

You got nearly infinite variety of customization, if you want something interesting to play stop using cookie cutter meta builds and try something unique. When was the last time you played a non-meta frame?  I don't want DE to sacrifice our great deal of variety so some handful of players who got carried to end game and play strictly meta builds complain how easy the game is.

 

 

 

To be fair, Diablo does have challenging boss fights, plus some of their elite and rare enemies put Eximus units to shame. You can actually encounter real threats in Diablo that isn't about how much HP the enemy has, or how hard it hits.

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2 hours ago, guartz said:

Look, it's Diablo philosophy here.

The whole point isn't that there arn't any challenges, the whole point is how quickly and efficiently can you mow down the enemies. It's diablo - with space ninjas, and it's hella fun, and diablo is all about META for endgame, just like warframe. Here is the thing about meta, it's not about challenge, it's about efficiency.

You got nearly infinite variety of customization, if you want something interesting to play stop using cookie cutter meta builds and try something unique. When was the last time you played a non-meta frame?  I don't want DE to sacrifice our great deal of variety so some handful of players who got carried to end game and play strictly meta builds complain how easy the game is.

 

 

 

You don't need meta builds for 99% of the game to be too easy. Enemies have too little health vs the damage Warframes and Weapons have, and simply not equipping mods is not a solution.

The game having end-game also wouldn't mean removing your ability to deal enough damage to kill that random Grineer 1,000,000,000 times over. It would just add more variety.

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12 hours ago, Lost_Cartographer said:

This is the part that's anecdotal.  If you want to META the hell out of the game then yeah, it won't feel much different killing them.  Taking hits though it's a fair amount of difference.  But if you lock down everything with CC, 1 or 1000, it doesn't matter, we're talking how many shots it takes to kill target dummies at that point.

And for what it's worth, DE keep pushing out content that caps around the 40-60 range with anything beyond that being a special case/"elite" mode for a reason.  If most people were comfortably handling level 80-120 content, DE would be comfortably designing around that.  Except they're not.  Either too many people are struggling past 40-60 or too many people just aren't interested in building for beyond that range and I can't blame them.  Fun first.  It's no secret skill falls to the wayside and Warframe turns into a game of math and mechanics before too long.

I would really love to see DE make a data collection on how many players truly play higher level content. the type of content we are getting is in great contrast to what most "endgame players" are suspecting. I mean I can't get over reb calling that new game mode on Jupiter made for high levels. the mode was super fun but not challenging.  

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12 hours ago, Ikyr0 said:

We need more enemies like the Wolf, Demolysts, and beefy Orb Vallis Corpus soldiers. Tough bullet sponges who can occasionally one-shot you if you're not paying attention is still part of the power fantasy, contrary to popular belief. It's something to make you at least think about your build a little bit.

Power fantasy gameplay doesn't have to be brainless. Ultimately, there needs to be a reason for all this power creep. I'm ok with retaining horde shooter mechanics but there must be lieutenants/mini bosses for either a gear check or skill checks. Otherwise people will just keep afk'ing content like they are now. 

That's funny because the examples you've quoted are the perfect examples of "braindead" content. Wolf and Demolysts are not "challenges", they're bullet sponges with unfathomable armor who deny 100% of Warframes' points as they're immune to everything.

How can these awfully-designed units can be praised as an example is beyond me.

I'm all-in for Bursas or Noxes units. But Demolysts and the Wolf are the worst examples you could provide. Negating 100% of your Warframe's uniqueness is not a good design. It SHOULD matter whether you pick Mag or Hildryn. Demolysts and Wolf reduce your weapons' choice to one, from then on it's just "well just shoot at it, you can't do anything else anyway".

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Weren't they nerfed every time they added something with stats that can be considered extraordinary compared to the average mooks?

Like assassins, Manics.

Minibosses like Nox were jokes since release, Nox should be given a cape and renamed to Oneheadshotman or Onestabman.

The only decently designed enemy imo. is still the base Nullifier sniper (glitchy drones though) and to some extent, Manics.

Even Hyenas would fall to the somewhat more interesting category of enemies due to their different abilities, but they are still too easy to deal with, especially with a not completely brainless team.

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6 hours ago, (XB1)ECCHO SIERRA said:

Because warframe isnt meant to be dark souls or halo or gears of war. If you want more challenging enemies reduce the power of your mods. Problem solved.

Oh yes, the typical ''forget the 5k hours you've spent on the game'' -argument. By same logic DE could stop wasting their time on releasing more powercreep and spend the time on some actually fun content. Problem solved.

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2 hours ago, Wyrmius_Prime said:

Oh yes, the typical ''forget the 5k hours you've spent on the game'' -argument. By same logic DE could stop wasting their time on releasing more powercreep and spend the time on some actually fun content. Problem solved.

Oh yes the typical, "i get to decide what "fun" is for everybody else"-argument.

 

Some people like being "overpowered".

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6 hours ago, Chewarette said:

That's funny because the examples you've quoted are the perfect examples of "braindead" content. 

How can these awfully-designed units can be praised as an example is beyond me.

Demolysts and Wolf reduce your weapons' choice to one, from then on it's just "well just shoot at it, you can't do anything else anyway".

oh? I've used multiple frames with multiple loadouts to kill these guys. I mean, if you want help with builds u can just ask instead of pouting.

Secondly, the examples i gave are less brain-dead than the rest of this game's content combined, Eidolons being one exception. As in: you at least have to THINK about a loadout, whereas the rest of the game can be completed without any builds whatsoever, and in some cases without any frame mods.

Just curious, how do you feel about max level OV Corpus (lvl 135)? Did you grind toroids for a little while? These are my favorite enemies in the game to fight, and it's a shame they're not being used in Arbies and Sorties.

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9 hours ago, (XB1)ECCHO SIERRA said:

Oh yes the typical, "i get to decide what "fun" is for everybody else"-argument.

 

Some people like being "overpowered".

It's not that, it's just that most people are going to do as well as they can as opposed to purposefully hindering themselves. I think the majority just want something to meet their astronomical heights. That shouldn't be too hard, and will hopefully be the sentient stuff as pseudo promised to us by DE at tennocon. Level 100 sentients could pretty fatal so my hope exists for that endgame that people go on about. And for it being where it belongs too.

 

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11 hours ago, Wyrmius_Prime said:

Oh yes, the typical ''forget the 5k hours you've spent on the game'' -argument. By same logic DE could stop wasting their time on releasing more powercreep and spend the time on some actually fun content. Problem solved.

Did you KNOWINGLY and WILLINGLY "spent" 5000 hours on this game?

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On 2019-07-21 at 4:27 PM, JackHargreav said:

I don't get why.

There wasn't a single game in history (to my knowledge) that changed the games genre in any way.

Warframe has been a horde shooter for 6 years. So it's not like ppl get tired of that aspect of the game.

He's not talking about changing genre. Theres nothing wrong with spicing the game up with different gamemode that focuses on a few challenging enemies to force tactics.  We already have open worlds and eidolons, That's already taking que from different genres. Do you think DE should stop development of the next project because it's from spaceship sim genre? 

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11 hours ago, Ikyr0 said:

Just curious, how do you feel about max level OV Corpus (lvl 135)? Did you grind toroids for a little while? These are my favorite enemies in the game to fight, and it's a shame they're not being used in Arbies and Sorties.

settle down satan.

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12 hours ago, (XB1)ECCHO SIERRA said:

Oh yes the typical, "i get to decide what "fun" is for everybody else"-argument.

 

Some people like being "overpowered".

YUP! 

Honestly, can you imagine if, back in the day, people complained to companies that made games with unlockable Cheat Modes and Power Ups, like Goldeneye had Invincibility Mode, and then nagged the devs to "make an enemy worthy of fighting us in that mode!"  And when we tell 'em "Just don't use cheats", they'd freak out?

That'd never happen.  We all KNEW that we were giving ourselves a huge handicap, and accepted the fun factor over the difficulty factor, unless we preferred it vice versa.


In much the same way, I agree....We may "earn" those powerups in Warframe, sure, but they're removable for a reason.  In some cases, it's like playing with cheats or whatnot toggled on...a handicap.  If I get bored, I just try other setups.....  Or yeah, try it without mods/etc.

I don't understand why people are so resistant to the actual solutions out there.

And don't get me started on how people want a "great opponent that can match their skill and power", but still refuse to use Conclave, which is -LITERALLY- exactly that...

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3 hours ago, (PS4)Taishin_Ishu said:

 

YUP! 

Honestly, can you imagine if, back in the day, people complained to companies that made games with unlockable Cheat Modes and Power Ups, like Goldeneye had Invincibility Mode, and then nagged the devs to "make an enemy worthy of fighting us in that mode!"  And when we tell 'em "Just don't use cheats", they'd freak out?

That'd never happen.  We all KNEW that we were giving ourselves a huge handicap, and accepted the fun factor over the difficulty factor, unless we preferred it vice versa.


In much the same way, I agree....We may "earn" those powerups in Warframe, sure, but they're removable for a reason.  In some cases, it's like playing with cheats or whatnot toggled on...a handicap.  If I get bored, I just try other setups.....  Or yeah, try it without mods/etc.

I don't understand why people are so resistant to the actual solutions out there.

And don't get me started on how people want a "great opponent that can match their skill and power", but still refuse to use Conclave, which is -LITERALLY- exactly that...

Weird analogy there... Cheats? Mods are removable for a reason, that reason is for customisation and progression.  Removing mods wont work. Difficulty doesn't have to be about getting one shotted by an eximus off screen. The nemesis system in  shadow of war is a good example of mixing in difficult enemies in between horde killing sessions. 

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29 minutes ago, goatwin said:

Weird analogy there... Cheats? Mods are removable for a reason, that reason is for customisation and progression.  Removing mods wont work. Difficulty doesn't have to be about getting one shotted by an eximus off screen. The nemesis system in  shadow of war is a good example of mixing in difficult enemies in between horde killing sessions. 

Tbh it is a weird analogy...it's 2am and I'm fresh out of coffee, sorry about that.

Regardless, what I'm trying to get at is it's a "Power-Up" that we "unlock" via progression, but it's use is voluntary.  We can still push through content without said power-ups (for the -most- part).  That fact that we choose -not- to is more telling of what we truly wish for in the game than what we actually say on these forums.

I -am- looking forward to the Lich bit coming with Railjack....And I'm totally not against new modes, or new ways of adding higher level enemies in the mix....  But I think people are a bit too picky with their demands sometimes.

Yes, some "big bads" are just bullet sponges, but hey...if they serve the purpose of slowing us down and forcing us to focus on one thing over another, dividing our attention and firepower, then I think they serve their purpose well enough.

If a Wolf-like mob showed up every 10 waves in a Defence, it'd be great!  Currently, there ARE progressively difficult mob spawns in most defense missions.  You'll see more and more eximus, more and more nulls, Nox, etc... 

I don't think it's that they're doing it wrong...I just think we need a bit more of 'em, but it's tough to create an enemy that is some perfect counter to -every- threat we pose, varied as we are.  So, bullet sponges make the most sense, currently.

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9 hours ago, Chappie1975 said:

Did you KNOWINGLY and WILLINGLY "spent" 5000 hours on this game?

Slide in a related dark humor 

 

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I still don't get how people can possibly consider Nox as a good enemy design.

Nox should at the very least hold a Grineer version of a tower shield in one hand to cover most of his head hitbox and blast anyone who gets close with that Stug variant.

I would also like if we had to break their guard before we could open them up for finishers and one hit kill them with a dagger.

They are currently just gimmicky mooks with low range attacks.

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52 minutes ago, kgabor said:

I still don't get how people can possibly consider Nox as a good enemy design.

Nox should at the very least hold a Grineer version of a tower shield in one hand to cover most of his head hitbox and blast anyone who gets close with that Stug variant.

I would also like if we had to break their guard before we could open them up for finishers and one hit kill them with a dagger.

They are currently just gimmicky mooks with low range attacks.

For their role, yeah I'd say they're good enemy design. They shake up the flow of combat so it doesn't get stale. Seeing a Nox is one of the few things in this game that gives an 'Oh hey, better change strategy to kill this guy' reaction (unless you're playing a CC Warframe, but that ties back into what I said about abilities 'solving' combat). It's simple, but effective.

The point of enemies is to make gameplay interesting. Noxes don't need to be the most effective at killing the player with tons of defenses layered on top like a boss fight. They need to force a player to adjust their strategy on the fly, which they achieve with their present design.

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On 2019-07-21 at 9:57 AM, Integra. said:

why do first answering people always defend what is kinda bad about game and say this is a feature?

But ok, I'll answer: it makes only AOE weapons and abilities effective in this game. That's why you see amprex/ignis/arca/catchmoon weapons most of the time and warframes like Saryn who can AOE (and I don't mind them, I feel like this is good to clear week crowds but let us have a hard enemies to shred alltogether with other weapons and abilities)

First reply of a thread is generally someone defending or someone throwing in a smartass remark. There was a time where that pissed me off.

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52 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

For their role, yeah I'd say they're good enemy design. They shake up the flow of combat so it doesn't get stale. Seeing a Nox is one of the few things in this game that gives an 'Oh hey, better change strategy to kill this guy' reaction (unless you're playing a CC Warframe, but that ties back into what I said about abilities 'solving' combat). It's simple, but effective.

The point of enemies is to make gameplay interesting. Noxes don't need to be the most effective at killing the player with tons of defenses layered on top like a boss fight. They need to force a player to adjust their strategy on the fly, which they achieve with their present design.

Might be just me then, i mainly use Banshee, snipers and a Maiming Strike melee at all levels, along with the now stupidly overpowered operator.

This brings up the next issue: Why do WF players use one trick pony builds and loadouts instead of going for an overall efficient one?

Nox's are pretty much a non-threat with the right gear, they should still present some minimal threat to the player.

A shield would imo. bring them to at least close to Nullifier levels in complexity and difficulty.

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Ganna work through reading this topic reply's for the giggles (and hopefully some gems of comments) but to answer you, we do! There called Assasination missions! but wait, you can just trip over the Assassination targets you say? well...yeah...That's pretty much the main issue atm. Our warframes, are strong, hella strong. If they want to make challenging content, with a few really strong challenging enemies, they have to make it so, for a group of 4 full power strength Vex armor chroma's, will find it 'challenging'. That, is the main issue. We have so many tools for dealing with a big meaty enemy, take the Eidilons for example, those are a nice big enemy for you to work through, and yet some even Solo those. Its near impossible for them to make 'challenging' content that is actually challenging without just being Nullifiers, for tiping the scale just a littttle bit in one direction turns them into enemies that one shot the player, and then people complain about that, or complain about how they just made a bullet sponge (try shooting at a level 130 bombard without armor shred or slash in the Semalicrom and tell me how fun that is...)

Its true this type of game play would be really fun to have, but the reason you get so many just joke responses/refutes is just that this game with all its variety and mechanics, just makes it really hard to make the game 'challenging' without making the game just straight unfair. And an unfair game, is not fun, no matter how 'hard' it is. (shudders at he profit taker boss fight)

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19 minutes ago, kgabor said:

Might be just me then, i mainly use Banshee, snipers and a Maiming Strike melee at all levels, along with the now stupidly overpowered operator.

This brings up the next issue: Why do WF players use one trick pony builds and loadouts instead of going for an overall efficient one? 

Nox's are pretty much a non-threat with the right gear, they should still present some minimal threat to the player.

A shield would imo. bring them to at least close to Nullifier levels in complexity and difficulty.

They are at Nullifier levels of complexity and difficulty, just for weapons instead of powers. 

Nullifiers are so frustrating for players for the same reason they use one-trick-pony setups. Most of these one-trick-ponies 'solve' gameplay. Saryn? Sure she has one trick, but that one trick kills everything. Limbo? Max Range Stasis is one trick, but it will lock down everything and render them helpless. Inaros? One trick, but it's one trick that ensures you are literally incapable of death and thus incapable of triggering the game's primary fail state.

Most one-tricks are basically playing the game by not playing it. If combat is a puzzle, they are the solution. Nullifiers hard-counter this usually, but they're not a long-term solution since... well, they only affect Corpus/Corrupted  and only when they're around. Spamming them to 'turn off' abilities is a band-aid.

Noxes also suffer from this 'solves combat' problem by virtue of them not being nullifiers. Targeting their head becomes pretty meaningless when they're standing perfectly still, for example.

 

The fix? More Wukong-like reworks. Either rework abilities in the vein of defy or new powers like Wisps' Wil-o-Wisp or if a frame relies on it for their theming or role (for example, Limbo and being the best defender at cost of his offense) offer other elements that still befit that role and make the ability more costly or complex to maintain. That way, using them becomes a fallback more than a one-size-fits-all approach to everything.

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