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Amalgan Thread , Dicussion over Scott's Rework/Fan Rework Archive

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4 hours ago, keikogi said:

Added the argument for bastille, Vauban call down air support, damage enemies and resupplies allies.

 

Though that augment will be "mandatory".. it is really nice idea

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10 hours ago, Gruiz said:

Though that augment will be "mandatory".. it is really nice idea

It not really mandatory , in fact I buffed it twice. It had a 10 minilutes countdown, I halfed the countdown to five and incresed it's duration. 

If you are talking about argument that os so good it will never leave a build look at the exalted armor/sentinel argument. It is deceptively powerfull. You can use it for damage reduction , energy regent and cc.

10 hours ago, Hawk_of_the_Reborn said:

As a Vauban main, this makes me excited in ways that is unfit for young ears

Thank you , I guess.

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11 hours ago, SECURATYYY said:

Vauban needs something like a nullifer shield imo

Do enemies have abilities? I dont think all of em does.

Only commander and scorpion

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11 hours ago, SECURATYYY said:

Vauban needs something like a nullifer shield imo

Man, I thought about the Nullifier bubble, but that idea has a problem. Enemy weaponry is way too effective against nullifiers bubbles (Grineer uses the grakata(high rare of fire) ; Corpus the Dera and Supra( high rate of fire) ; the infested just *@##$ slap you). Even thought, the bubble is amazing at stopping warframes, it is not nearly as good at stopping a grineer platoon.

If you want a protective bubble, you can just use equip Adaptable systems and equip the sentinel as armor. You will get a bubble that reduces ranged damage by 60% and slow down projectiles 90%.  This build does not have a 100% up time, but I think it is good enough.

22 minutes ago, Gruiz said:

Do enemies have abilities? I dont think all of em does.

Only commander and scorpion

Quite a few enemies have skills, all hyena based proxies have skills , mutalist moas have skills , mutalist ospreys have skills , bombards have skills … But the problem is , getting close to them to disable theirs skill is not as good as it seems.

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Posted (edited)

Removed the shield upgrade effect from tesla 2.0, now it Called Tesla Wire. Tesla Wire just add the old Argument to the tesla.

Edited by keikogi

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New argument for Vauban one, has a look at @Gruiz  rework and the whole orb mother gave me an idea. Mite Tesla.

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Cluster grenades didn’t really help because odds are the gradates would overlap their explosion and the effect does not stack. So, I’ve replaced it with Universal Aid. It is a support skill; its effect relies upon the ally current shield. It might give them more damage, stronger shield or a brief period of invulnerability coupled with extra mobility.

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Wow,  I really, really like some of the abilities, especially his exalted sentiel, becoming a sholder cannon too? that's amazing!

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Posted (edited)
43 minutes ago, Esoterics said:

Wow,  I really, really like some of the abilities, especially his exalted sentiel, becoming a sholder cannon too? that's amazing

It is not just a shoulder mounted cannon. It buff Vauban mobility and survivability as well. It gives a lot of extra armor and shields. It alsos gives Vauban a pair of the hover skis( the same ones from the crorpus scrambus ) providing him a boost in mobility. I will have a deep look into your post and privide some feedback later.

Edited by keikogi

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2 minutes ago, keikogi said:

It is not just a shoulder mounted cannon. It buff Vauban mobility and survivability as well. It gives a lot of extra armor and shields. It alsos gives Vauban a pair of the hover skis( the same ones from the crorpus scrambus ) providing him a boost in mobility. I will have a deep look into your post and privide some feedback later.

Aye, I've read that, I really like how it could change Vauban looks, adding more armor bits also on stats, kinda like chroma I think, giving hover skis, amazing, really great, I actually wish this was canon now 🙂

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On 2019-08-23 at 5:59 PM, Esoterics said:

Aye, I've read that, I really like how it could change Vauban looks, adding more armor bits also on stats, kinda like chroma I think, giving hover skis, amazing, really great, I actually wish this was canon now 🙂

Have a deep look into the argument for the Exalted Armor/Sentinel. It seems innocent but in reality, it is remarkably strong. It gives a weak adaptation effect and allows his custom sentinel to equip exclusive moa and sentinels’ mods, the second effect seems minor until you remember a few mod. Here are a few applications:

Energy Generator: well this sentinel does way more damage than Death cube, it will assist in 10 kill quite often. (this one is the reason you would run this argument; free energy is free energy).

Whyplash mine:  pretty much nidus larva, a bit slower and unreliable (you can’t use it whenever you want)

Statis Field: Damage reduction against ranged attacks with a high uptime (2/3 of the time) . (this one is really good as well, people don’t notice the strength of this effect because it happens around the MOA, if it was around a sentinel or warframe people would use it all the time)

Security Override: free cypher but it takes to 2 seconds to go off

Scan Aquatic Lifeforms: free die for fishing , but you can keep your kavat around for a chance of double loot

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On 2019-08-10 at 6:25 AM, keikogi said:

 

Man, I thought about the Nullifier bubble, but that idea has a problem. Enemy weaponry is way too effective against nullifiers bubbles (Grineer uses the grakata(high rare of fire) ; Corpus the Dera and Supra( high rate of fire) ; the infested just *@##$ slap you). Even thought, the bubble is amazing at stopping warframes, it is not nearly as good at stopping a grineer platoon.

If you want a protective bubble, you can just use equip Adaptable systems and equip the sentinel as armor. You will get a bubble that reduces ranged damage by 60% and slow down projectiles 90%.  This build does not have a 100% up time, but I think it is good enough.

Quite a few enemies have skills, all hyena based proxies have skills , mutalist moas have skills , mutalist ospreys have skills , bombards have skills … But the problem is , getting close to them to disable theirs skill is not as good as it seems.

I completely agree the bubble sounds weak against automatic fire weapons enemies usually carry.

However a nulli bubble would prevent :

- being one shot by a sniper unit at high level

- being downed by a toxic ancient burp to the face

- losing all its energy because there's an eximus leech hiding among the 3 dozens of Infested enemies around you (the same goes for cold eximus aura which slows down both your movement and firerate)

- getting magnetized by some enemies/traps (and losing all energy once again)

- all grappling would be prevented (scorpions, ancients, ...) as well as the AoE stun attack from the Corpus jetpack dudes in Orb Vallis, making you as unmoveable as Atlas (even mid air)

Note that the bubble being a few meters wide, allies could seek refuge in it (e.g. to conserce energy while an energy leech is around, or during a fire/cold eximus aura burst)

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On 2019-08-25 at 4:53 AM, keikogi said:

Have a deep look into the argument for the Exalted Armor/Sentinel. It seems innocent but in reality, it is remarkably strong. It gives a weak adaptation effect and allows his custom sentinel to equip exclusive moa and sentinels’ mods, the second effect seems minor until you remember a few mod. Here are a few applications:

 

Energy Generator: well this sentinel does way more damage than Death cube, it will assist in 10 kill quite often. (this one is the reason you would run this argument; free energy is free energy).

 

Whyplash mine:  pretty much nidus larva, a bit slower and unreliable (you can’t use it whenever you want)

 

Statis Field: Damage reduction against ranged attacks with a high uptime (2/3 of the time) . (this one is really good as well, people don’t notice the strength of this effect because it happens around the MOA, if it was around a sentinel or warframe people would use it all the time)

 

Security Override: free cypher but it takes to 2 seconds to go off

 

Scan Aquatic Lifeforms: free die for fishing , but you can keep your kavat around for a chance of double loot

 

Stasis Field sounds great on paper (especially if you could equip it on a sentinel), but it doesn't work well if you're not the host

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10 hours ago, Tatann said:

Stasis Field sounds great on paper (especially if you could equip it on a sentinel), but it doesn't work well if you're not the host

First off what is the problem Statis Field has when you are not the host. Never paid enough attention to MOA during missions to notice it.

Second you convinced to seriously consider it but will have to fix a few issues. Where to place this ability?

My first guess is to replace the energy wall from bastille 2.0 and replace it with something like this

tumblr_m5y8d20opI1ryjk8ao1_400.gif

But with a radius closer to frost snow globe. Them allow Vauban to pick up the bubble. The bubble can absorb a set number of hits but can only loose a set amount of HP per second. Despite its different bubble size mechanic, it can block anything a nullifier bubble can.

I will probably have to scrap the ability to use MOA mods, two bubbles would create to much visual clutter. I must find a way to buff the argument for his 4.

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I've tried it for some time cause I was really excited by it (in fact it was my main reason to build a MOA), but when I tested it off host, I couldn't see the bullets being slowed down like in the Simulacrum

I couldn't tell about the damage reduction though, it's harder to get numbers while in mission

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Update: Vauban and his ally can pick up the shield by interacting with it (like volt shield). Vauban can pick up the shield by rolling thought it. Also removed the ability to change loadout mid mission with the liset carpet bomb. I’ve realized the warframe engine only sync with your account at the star and end of the mission, so during the mission it does not know the inventory of each player. Also , fallowing a bit Rahetalius thoughts , the weapon from the sentinel no longer has AOE damage. It is more of Lanka, and its target precepts will seek the highest HP enemy on Vauban Line of sight.

Sorry @Tatann,  I’ve tried to Implement the nullifier bubble, but every time I’ve tried it either felt to weak or to strong( it has the Mesmer skin problem , since it gives no #*!% about enemy damage it has the nasty tendency of just ignoring enemy scaling and ignoring enemy skills on top of that). But the ability to pick up the shield is fruit of these thought experiments.

On 2019-08-27 at 2:03 PM, Xepthrichros said:

Bumping this to keep it visible

Thx

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Posted (edited)

knowing Vauban is next in line for a rework, I would like to share my thoughts about him.

I have seen a few ideas, and I thought a lot about Ivara. There are a few similarities in their powers - not at all in how they are used, but on a deeper level: Creativity. Ivara is my favorite frame because she allows me to do pretty much everything I may need to beat the game, for as long as I am creative enough to do it. the mere fact I can guide projectiles or place invisibility on anything I want is insanely unique due to the playstyle variety it offers.

I think this is what Vauban lacks. He has an identity, and he has variety, but unlike Ivara, which has incredible synergies both within her own kit at with some weapons, vauban's moveset amounts to an array of tools that offer little and sparse synergy between themselves, while only having weapon specific synergies worth talking about, or unique to him, in explosives + vortex.

let's start by addressing the most crippling issues.

 

1 - CC is done better by other frames. Vauban's main selling point is rendered insignificant by mainly two frames: Gara and Limbo. Limbo can cover up a much, much larger area than Vauban can, with no cap to targets, while applying in my opinion the best CC in the game: Timelocking. Enemies are vulnerable to all procs, unlike freeze or petrify, and the timer on these statuses is frozen, too. A single slash proc will kill a timelocked enemy because it won't stop, ever. Gara's wall also hard CCs everything inside, while also keeping everything from entering. Unlike bastille, it even works on capture mode. It also blocks bullets and missiles, whereas poor Vauban is vulnerable. There simply is no point in using Vauban for CC, when much tankier frames that already outmatch him in survivability and damage also outshine him in his main selling point.

2 - power redundancy and ineffectiveness. Which also adds up to:

3 - lack of synergies. his 1 is CC, which is better done by 3 and 4. His 2? More CC, also done better by 3 and 4. His 3 and 4? Virtualy swappable or similar in most situations.

his powers do not mesh together, and this makes his abilities feel rather stale.

instead, I think we should rework Vauban in a way that maintains most of his abilities, but adapts them to synergize with eachother, in a way that both increases his relevancy, and allows creativity. I like the ideas I came up with, and I would like to share them, thoughI fully understand someone might know better. 

let's start with the CONCEPT. Vauban is basicaly an engineer Warframe who uses magnetic, technological, and "dimensional" traps. his traps, sadly, are bad for the most part, and his theme beyond "oh, more traps and magnets" is mostly unexplored.

I would approach Vauban as "The techno trapper" - an engineer who indeed applies technology and traps, but whose main weapon is actually ingenuity and cunning, through how creatively he uses his traps.

all his abilities are reimagined, while true to their original part, to fit this concept.

1 - replace Tesla with bounce. 

bounce is now larger, does not affect players, has infinite duration and uses, and causes affected enemies to enter stasis for 3 seconds, during which time their armor is removed. After stasis period ends, enemy is flung in a 90 degree angle from the trap. Up to 3 traps can be placed, with new ones deleting the older ones. CC resistant enemies still get armor strip.

can be applied to allies, working as a mobile personal defense AOE / melee armor Debuff. Hold to cast on self.

this drasticaly changes bounce. On the one hand, it becomes an armor strip ability, which doubles as a functional panic button. Throw one at an enemy, and not only they are CC'd, you have a few moments to unload onto them. this still allows bounce to be used as it used to, namely blocking control points in interception, but now has more uses and the larger radius, infinite duration, and lack of effect on players makes it a lot more convenient to use. It also gains mobility.

2 - minelayer still has 4 abilities. Tesla replaces bounce, wires are reworked, and both of his mines are changed.

-wires: Every cast places an anchor. Every two casts, anchor 1 connects to anchor 2. This connection forms a tripwire. Tripwire causes 1000 damage and a guaranteed slash proc. It also causes a confirmed blast proc. Anchors can be targeted and destroyed by enemies, but their wires can go through obstacles. No limit In range, duration, or uses - these are now permanent traps.

as a result, tripwires gain some damage, and some synergy with condition overload, by easily applying two status procs. The blast proc also makes it likely that some enemies simply can't get through it at all, as once they get up, they are either hit again, or affected by a friendly unit getting blasted.in fact, the higher the enemy density, the stronger this gets. Up to 3 wires can exist - thus 6 anchors - which allows closing up several chokepoints. The increase in range offers great options. Placing one of these wires ALONG a corridor would completely block passage since it would be impossible to go through it without having the blast-pricing wire noclip through you.

- tesla: Now works like an Amprex, and arcs damage between nearby enemies. Works for 60 seconds. 

applying tesla directly on an enemy causes that specific enemy to receive electricity, blast, and cold damage on literaly every tick of damage, and nearby targets still get mini-amprex'd. 

applying tesla on an ally grants them 1 energy/second regeneration, adds 50% electric damage to all their attacks, and grants magnetic proc immunity. Holding / charging tesla applies it on yourself.

applying tesla within 5 meters of a tripwire anchor electrified the wire, causing it to now deal another 1000 electtical damage and proc (extending stuns beyond direct contact with the wire), as well as having a 25% chance to apply a radiation proc. This will further stall enemies, causing them to strafe and attack eachother, hitting the wire more in the process. A power strength build found seriously sow chaos among enemies with this.

-Shred mine: This now works as a cluster mine, similar to a kulstar. Each bomblet causes 15% of enemy hp as finisher damage, which cannot be resisted, and inflicts a blast proc, a puncture proc, and a magnetic proc. % is affected by power strength, at 200% you would be dealing 30% hp per bomblet - rather strong. This makes it an infinitely scaling option that wont nuke an entire room, but absolutely helps in high levels. % damage is nothing to scoff at, as it ignores scaling altogether. This magnitude is doubled if enemies were launched by Bounce the last few seconds. Infinite duration, but single use. 

shred mines can also be applied on allies, and Vauban himself, as many times as needed. This creates scenarios where one can stick a shred mine to an ally who is invisible, and let them allahu ackbar a small crowd. How devilish!

- concussion bomb becomes, instead, Mag-Decoy device. Up to 4 can be placed, each emmiting a static decoy resembling Vauban. These decoys have increased threat level. They attract enemy fire, and collect the bullets as ammo drops. The intent, here, is to supply the team with much easier times with ammo management, opening up some options that usualy are undesirable due to ammo economy issues, or freeing up one's dependency on Carrier. at 20.000 (value subject to change, ofc) damage absorbed, the decoy explodes, causing an EMP blast with a large 30 meter radius. This EMP  blast inflicts a radial disarm.

applied on allies directly, adds 10% passive ammo conversion and boosts shield recharge delay by 100%.

3 - bastille and vortex are combined into a 2 option switch power, and their function changes slightly. Bastille retains its normal function, but now only one can be deployed. Bastille suspends all targets within radius, while also applying escalating magnetic damage, similar to Hydroid's puddle (with slower scaling). 

3 - vortex now has minimal duration, only 3 seconds. Vortex triggers once an enemy enters its activation radius (5m) and activates, covering a 15 meter area. All enemies, ammo drops lingering around, bomblets, and projectiles (rockets, missiles, arrows, etc) are sucked in. Every ammo drop explodes for 1000 damage. This may easily delete an entire crowd of enemies due to multiple %hp hits from bomblets. This ability has a 30 second cooldown.

4 - Entrench: Vauban drops a grenade, which forms a pad. Standing on this pad grants Condition Overload (at 10, not 60) to all attacks from all weapons. Allies also benefit from Vauban's passive, +25% damage to CC'D enemies. In addition, Vauban and company receive 10% less damage for every status effect on the attackers.

 

Vauban becomes the ultimate Area Denial warframe, who still loses out in many areas to other CC frames, but gains its fair share of support options.

some combinations include planting a shrapnel mine on top of a vortex mine, and throwing a bounce at the right angle to send a crowd of enemies flying onto a death trap.

it is also possible to use Bounce to sent targets flying back, or against, electrified tripwires.

tripwires themselves can serve as a chokepoint tool, or be stacked together to completely shut down access through one area, killing everything attempting passage.

decoys allow for ammo efficiency to not be a concern, as factualy speaking, you can generate ammo from just there being enemies. The only cost is energy, and his 1 cast on himself provides energy regeneration, not a lot, but some.

his new 4 opens up incredible synergies with some frames, like Saryn or Oberon, who can also apply status procs on entire groups, for very signifficant damage increases, as well as very high damage reduction - in the 50-80% ballpark - from most things in the area.

from armor stripping, to percentual damage, to scaling damage, to slash procs, to easily buffering up condition overload - I would easily say he no longer lacks damage.

 

Vauban becomes a strong area denial caster that benefits taking cover, entrenching oneself behind multiple layers of traps, and wantonly bombarding enemies from safe areas while your traps turn the battlefield into a fireworks show. he is, though, entirely reliant on player awareness. Failing to stay on the entrench platform, or failing to have enemies hit multiple traps, means no tankiness, and Vauban is very easily killed.

high costs also pose a threat. While some of his options are now infinitely lasting, the ones that aren't are also quite costly, and with his more varied tools it may be undesireable to skip survivability, since vitality and adaptation + stacks of Entrench would make him a viable tank, so energy efficiency might need to be sacrificed; or primed flow; this may make him run with a difficult energy economy system.

 

those are my ideas. I would love to hear your feedback.

Edited by NovusKnight
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These are some cool ideas, however they make me wonder if some of them should be equipped on a new warframe instead, like a weapon smith or some other type of engineer like warframe.

The wikia says his abilities are focused on traps, which is why things like energy walls doesnt seem to fit a trapper. Neither do drones seeking out enemies. 

Traps usually are stationary, and do something when someone gets near it right? A trap is designed for camping, so a trapper warframe should see the most light in situations where camping is needed. He engineers traps

But yea, have some fun ideas. Just some i think should be used on a different warframe.

 

Like If DE were to add the ideas in your post, im not gonna complain! Anything to make vauban more fun imo

Edited by (PS4)IIFrost_GhostII

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6 minutes ago, (PS4)IIFrost_GhostII said:

These are some cool ideas, however they make me wonder if some of them should be equipped on a new warframe instead, like a weapon smith or some other type of engineer like warframe.

As far is the wiki is concerned Vauban is the Engineer frame.

Release Date: May 17th, 2013

Vauban is an engineer-themed Warframe. Utilizing potent trapping modules to manipulate the battlefield to the Tenno's favor, Vauban is a versatile Warframe suitable for methodical tacticians. Vauban deployed in Update 7.11.

The thing is the only engineer thing he has going for him right now is trap building.  I’ve expanded his combat engineer role with smart grandees, gave him a bit the builder theme with the new bastille and explored the mechanical engineer side with Bleriot. The only aspect of Vauban’s current kit I dislike is concuss. I don’t think a melee finisher enabler belongs on an engineer or trapper frame. So, it was completely scraped. The rest of Vauban’s current kit was interest upon to be more accessible or more powerful.

I tried my best to give him versatily skills to allow him to fortify positions with traps , defend positions wiht walls

21 minutes ago, (PS4)IIFrost_GhostII said:

which is why things like energy walls doesnt seem to fit a trapper

Bastille is the name of a fortress that was later used as prison

Vauban is the name of French engineer famous for fortification building. He also created combat engineering units in the French army and innovated in the uses of siege artillery.

His name and description don’t restrict him as trapper frame, right now he only delivers traps but I don’t think we should restrain ourselves to what the frame offers right now when reworking a frame , as long is the broader theme allows and it is balanceable it is fine. Also, The current influx of CC immune enemies made me realize DE gave up upon balancing CC on the game, so I’ve decided to just avoid the issue of trying to guess what is to much CC and just gave Vauban more forms of utility and self-defense while keeping his worthwhile skills somewhat intact.  

36 minutes ago, (PS4)IIFrost_GhostII said:

The wikia says his abilities are focused on traps, which is why things like energy walls doesnt seem to fit a trapper. Neither do drones seeking out enemies. 

I understand your concerns of my rework being a bit out there and stretching the theme quite a bit.

38 minutes ago, (PS4)IIFrost_GhostII said:

But yea, have some fun ideas. Just some i think should be used on a different warframe.

 

Like If DE were to add the ideas in your post, im not gonna complain! Anything to make vauban more fun imo

Glad You liked the overall idea.

 

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Hey Tenno.

So Vauban is due for a rework quite soon, and with hints from the higher ups, he seems to be going pretty far forward. And after I got my hands on Vauban Prime, I can safely say he is quite slept on. BUT, here are some ideas I have for his rework!

Passive: For every incapacitated enemy, Vauban does 10% more damage.

(While his passive is amazing as it is, I think this would be a fun alternative!)

Ability 1: Minelayer

With four mines at Vauban's disposal, he can dish out various status affects to his foes! Combine two different mines to create a different element!

(With Gauss as inspiration, Vauban now has mines of the base elements. Fire, Cold, Toxin, and Electric. Each mine has a 100% status chance when attacking. When placing two mines together, such as Toxin and Electric, they will form their respective element, in this case, Corrosive!)

Ability 2: Burst

Vauban triggers the mines on his belt and on the field to cause a devistating AoE based on the mine's element, destroying foes and aiding allies.

(To help Minelayer get some use beside spreading status, Burst is a damaging/support ability that lets Vauban become more tactical with his mines. When activating Burst, Vauban bursts with the AoE of the selected mine, while others on the field burst their respective element. The elements do their espective status to enemies with a strong blast, but to allies, Fire gives a burst of Health, Electric replenishes Energy, Toxin increases attack speed, and Cold camoflauges allies [ie invisibility] for a short time.)

Ability 3: Vortex Shield

Vauban throws a mine that turns into a deadly vortex, sucking in all enemies within range and crushing them, absorbing their atoms. After enemies are absorbed, a Nullifier-like shield quickly grows around the mine. The more enemies absorbed, the larger the shield will be. Enemies within the shield will be disarmed.

(This one is basically an improvement of his standard Vortex, mixed with the clear Corpus designs Vauban has. As the description says, if an enemy is absorbed, it will create a Nullifier-like shield that is gradually shot down my the enemy, similar to how we do with Nullifiers.)

Ability 4: Bastille

Vauban throws a mine that triggers a large bastille that lifts enemies into the air. When the bastille reaches the end of its duration, it becomes unstable and collapses in on itself, bringing enemies into the center and concussing them, causing a Radiation proc.

(Ah, Bastille. See the thing with Bastille and Vortex, is that their base mechanics are good as is. So, there's no real point in changing them... So why not just add onto them! This Bastille is used the same way as the currect Bastille, but with a mini Vortex and Concuss mine at the end.)

So, those are my ideas on a Vauban rework! I know DE has something completely different planned, so lets hope he gets shipped out ASAP!

Later y'all!

Edited by StarMoral
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Moving to Warframe feedback.

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