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Amalgan Thread , Dicussion over Scott's Rework/Fan Rework Archive

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Just now, (NSW)ToadBlue said:

you get the best of both worlds as far as I can tell

Looks to me like you get an ability that doesn't do either of the things well, or has some horrible clumsy mechanic for switching between the two.

 

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1 minute ago, schilds said:

Looks to me like you get an ability that doesn't do either of the things well, or has some horrible clumsy mechanic for switching between the two.

Looks like the enemies get CC'd in the exact same fashion as they do right now, so I don't see what the problem is.

5 minutes ago, (XB1)COA Altair said:

People just like to jump to conclusions based on a video.  If they outlined the changes in writing and they said horrible things in said writing, then you can go all doom and gloom on vauban but all we can do based on the videos is see that tesla grenades are likely gone in favor of roller balls that maybe follow you around and do...something?  As well as bastille and vortex being combined somehow but we aren't sure in what way and we don't know if with the new combination you can throw out multiple bastilles or not as well as duration being a real question mark as well and how it will work.  

I can at least say that I love the idea of Vauban throwing out his own little seeker mines to chase enemies around while he sits in the safety and comfort of his Bastille taking leisurely potshots at everyone trapped inside. That sounds much more like the trap-master and engineer he's supposed to be.

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5 minutes ago, (NSW)ToadBlue said:

Looks like the enemies get CC'd in the exact same fashion as they do right now, so I don't see what the problem is.

If you read the rest of this thread, you might notice that the different points of view arise from the proposal that Vortex and Bastille are "the same". Some of us use them in different ways for different purposes. i'm not saying that's everyone, people often play the same frame differently.

 

The proposed combination Bastille/Vortex doesn't appear to match one, the other, or both of the uses of the separate Bastille/Vortex particularly well.

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1 minute ago, schilds said:

If you read the rest of this thread, you might notice that the different points of view arise from the proposal that Vortex and Bastille are "the same". Some of us use them in different ways for different purposes. i'm not saying that's everyone, people often play the same frame differently.

 

The proposed combination Bastille/Vortex doesn't appear to match one, the other, or both of the uses of the separate Bastille/Vortex particularly well.

But no one has explained how they're different, how they're used differently, and why merging them somehow deprives you of... something. Because no one will explain it.

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14 minutes ago, (NSW)ToadBlue said:

People just like to jump to conclusions based on a video.

Not jumping to conclusions from the video. This is more a reaction to people claiming that Bastille/Vortex are redundant and so combining them won't much affect Vauban gameplay. It will for those people who use the two abilities differently.

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This is what i was worried about. Vauban needs some tweaks, no a *&&% mess made of his skills. Fusing those two skills makes no sense. May as well just remove Bastille and put something else in.

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1 minute ago, AzureTerra said:

This is what i was worried about. Vauban needs some tweaks, no a *&&% mess made of his skills. Fusing those two skills makes no sense. May as well just remove Bastille and put something else in.

Why would you throw out his best ability?

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1 minute ago, (NSW)ToadBlue said:

But no one has explained how they're different, how they're used differently, and why merging them somehow deprives you of... something. Because no one will explain it.

It's been explained.

 

Vortex = clump enemies together to kill them (not after some 7 second delay)

Bastille = wide range area denial (up to 4 of them).

 

I'm not sure how much clearer I can get ....

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Just now, schilds said:

It's been explained.

 

Vortex = clump enemies together to kill them (not after some 7 second delay)

Bastille = wide range area denial (up to 4 of them).

 

I'm not sure how much clearer I can get ....

Okay. You can still do both of those. So I still don't see a problem.

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5 minutes ago, (NSW)ToadBlue said:

Why would you throw out his best ability?

because for you it maybe but for me his 4 see's a lot more use. Which overall is why DE shouldn't listen to what players want to closely if that abomination is a player requested thing.

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9 minutes ago, (NSW)ToadBlue said:

Okay. You can still do both of those. So I still don't see a problem.

What has been shown is Bastille followed by Vortex after some delay, or maybe a user controlled toggle. That's not "both".

1. If you want the effect of Vortex immediately, can you get it?

2. If you want the range of the current Bastille, can you get it?

3. If you want to avoid clumsy toggle mechanics, is that possible?

 

Maybe their solution will answer all these questions in the affirmative, which would be great.

 

They could do that by just giving Vortex the range of Bastille :-P. (Hint, they're not going to do it).

Edited by schilds

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3 minutes ago, schilds said:

What has been shown is Bastille followed by Vortex after some delay, or maybe a user controlled toggle. That's not "both".

1. If you want the effect of Vortex immediately, can you get it?

2. If you want the range of the current Bastille, can you get it?

3. If you want to avoid clumsy toggle mechanics, is that possible?

 

Maybe their solution will answer all these questions in the affirmative, which would be great.

 

They could do that by just giving Vortex the range of Bastille :-P. (Hint, they're not going to do it).

There's no solid answers to any of those questions yet, since all we have is brief teasers from Twitter. I would hope that yes you could instantly turn a Bastille into a Vortex, yes Bastille still has the same base range, and yes that it would be as simple as recasting Bastille to turn it into Vortex or something just as easy. But I don't know yet, so all I can do is wait and see. It would be silly if they merged Bastille and Vortex but didn't include all of the positives of both, especially since Bastille is now his 4 instead of his 3, his ultimate ability should be really strong.

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In any case, whatever they change it to, I can probably still find a way to play with him. It just might be a different way of playing him :-P.

 

One persistent issue the devs have is underestimating how fast the pace of the game has become. There are lots of things that in theory would be great in combination, but take too long to set up - by the time you've set the combination up, the enemies are already dead and your team mates are two tiles away :-P.

 

That's why even apparently minor toggles, delays, etc have a significant effect on the utility of equipment/abilities (just take a look at all the unrewarded effort the devs put into trying to get players to switch between weapons :-P).

Edited by schilds

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All I wanted for bastille was lift the cap and maybe lower the energy cost.  But Khora exists now so guess the dome is that bastille.

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1 hour ago, schilds said:

Not jumping to conclusions from the video. This is more a reaction to people claiming that Bastille/Vortex are redundant and so combining them won't much affect Vauban gameplay. It will for those people who use the two abilities differently.

Explain how you used them differently cause Im not seeing it 

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Yeah, I think this thread shows a lot of why some people need to have a key thing when ever it comes to things that are a work in progress:

Patience.

Seriously, Scott has at most shown like 3 mechanical changes for Vauban so far. Only 3. We don't know what functions have changed, we don't know what Vauban's full kit looks like, we don't even know what the basic stats are. Come on guys, can we just have a little, itty-bitty, tiny sliver of patience before we come to conclusions on whether or not Vauban is saved or doomed.

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6 hours ago, (PS4)CommanderC2121 said:

Then again however you have the issue of redundancy.

Vauban's abilities already have the issue of redundancy though. Merging the two worst offenders into a single multi-stage ability could be good. Ideally, the preview we're seeing would work as "press to throw a Bastille, hold to throw Vortex or turn existing Bastille into Vortex". No loss of any functionality, plus chaining Bastille->Vortex would mean the latter finds an easier time drawing in more enemies. Toss out a wide net, reel 'em in.

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2 hours ago, NekroArts said:

hy even bother with the Bastille part if the end result is going to be Vortex?

 

2 hours ago, NekroArts said:

Bastille has a higher base range than Vortex.

I was gonna say something, but you answered your own question.

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How many of you actually play Vauban?

It seems DE is making a Vauban rework for Rahetalius because they're doing everything he wanted... but not exactly as he wanted. I'm refering to this 50 minutes video he made.

He has some really good ideas but some of his points are kinda weird.

Making Tesla a Shock mote chinese knockoff isn't a bad idea but... he also talks about giving Vauban a way to deal damage (and that would require you to mod him for strength) just to later say giving out range is not something you'd wanna do on Vauban (because that'd mean removing Overextended from your build). If you want Vauban to be able to deal some damage without sacrificing range then you have 2 mines (bounce and trip laser) you can replace with better ones. Maybe giving him a new mine that buffs damage/fire rate or something or the sort by a flat amount (so you can keep your range) while keeping and buffing concuss and shred.

Rahetalius doesn't understand Vauban's concept, he's not supposed to be a DPS frame, he's supposed to be a frame able to manipulate the battlefield, a tactician. He kept comparing Vauban to Saryn, Equinox and Octavia in his video. Why even play Vauban if you don't like how he plays? I'm not against giving him some damage tho.

About his new 4th ability (Bastille fused with Vortex)...  let get this straight, if you think Bastille and Vortex do the same thing then i can say for sure you are not a Vauban player and only ranked him up for MR. Both bastille and vortex have differente use cases, let me explain a bit:

You use bastille to keep enemies away, to revive teammates, as a panic button, to defend objectives and to do solo interceptions.

You use Vortex as a way to gather enemies around doors in survival missions and mostly as a offensive tool. Have any of you ever used a gas redeemer prime on 10+ enemies stuck in a vortex? It's a nice way to exploit Vauban's passive and that's something you can only do with vortex.

So... what's wrong with his new 4th ability? Well... I know fusing Bastille and Vortex together was Rahetalius idea but Goose (Lead designer for Warframe) did a really poor job on actually executing that idea. Rahetalius didn't say "make bastille turn into vortex after a few seconds by holding 4", he said "I would say that Vauban would benefit from having both abilities in one key... With bastille being tap to cast and vortex hold to cast" (28:06 in the video) and he said this because sometimes you do need both abilities active at the same time. Don't fall for it just because it's flashy, it's an objectively worse version of both abilites if you have to wait to use vortex. AND PLEASE, LET IT STAY A 75 ENERGY ABILITY.

It really doesn't matter that much what they do to Tesla and Minelayer, almost anything is better than what he curretly has and he's also getting a brand new ability, just don't #*!% up his signatures abilities in such way.

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22 minutes ago, (PS4)FriendSharkey said:

Oh god I hope this trend continues because Chroma needs his 2 and 3 to be just one...

Chroma's 2 and 3 do different things, unlike Vauban 3 and 4, which are just 2 different versions of CC

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