Amalgan Thread , Dicussion over Scott's Rework/Fan Rework Archive

[Trickster_God_Loki]

Looking good to be honest. I will wait until its live to pass jugdement.

I think his bastile/vortex combo gonna go like this: you throw bastile down and leave it as is or activate again to turn it into vortex. That would give us choice what we want it to do.

Also am I only one thinking Scott's idea is bastile ->put mines under them->turn bastile into vortex->boom ?

Too bad we didn't see anything about minelayer, vaubans worst ability by far.

[Autongnosis]

il y a 16 minutes, (NSW)ToadBlue a dit :

For a completely different game, maybe.

No, actually for the better version of this game, before the developing team went completely off the rails. The same game that's been systematically demolished for 4 years straight. The game that used to hook people up for the game, not for the umpteenth pretty but shallow shiny. 

 

Even then, what exactly does combining bastille and vortex do? It's like they decided to combine Larva and Ravenous on Nidus because they both do CC... 

Again, if anything the combination should be on vauban's grenadier skill. Trip has literally no place other than dank memes, you could swap that out with tesla if you really wanted to free up an ability to introduce something new. 

Edited September 20, 2019 by Autongnosis

[Numerikuu]

2 hours ago, Pr1A said:

I get the idea of combining his 3 and 4, it's kinda pointless to have "CC that pulls everyone into a pile" and "CC that makes everyone levitate on their place" separately. However, I hope we can still have multiple Bastilles up simultaneously.

I hope his new 4 will be something interesting, preferably a dmg ability. Some big-ass grenade/mine perhaps? It would synergize well with the vortex.

This... Bastille is great at locking down interception terminals and crowd control. And get this... not everyone... likes to play nuke frames. Some people, believe it or not, like to play solo or in groups with friends with a tactical frame/crowd controller.

[RunningChaos]

13 hours ago, (PS4)CommanderC2121 said:

I dont see an issue with that. Then again however you have the issue of redundancy. Why would I use vortex when bastille was better in all but like 2 situations? 

1. Bastille isn't better then Vortex. Different uses for both. I personally use Vortex more.

2. They should keep them separate. Quick press for both abilities and a hold to add Tesla to shock the crap out of enemies trapped in Vortex and electrify Bastille.

That way they still open up a ability slot. Obviously it's something I personally would like. Others might disagree. The electricity damage must be high enough to do some serious damage.

Or....just make Vortex a Vortex mine. Suck all the enemies in and blow them to hell. Here's looking at you Corpus.

Keep the electricity on the Bastille.

Edited September 20, 2019 by RunningChaos

[(NSW)ToadBlue]

31 minutes ago, Autongnosis said:

No, actually for the better version of this game, before the developing team went completely off the rails. The same game that's been systematically demolished for 4 years straight. The game that used to hook people up for the game, not for the umpteenth pretty but shallow shiny. 

 

Even then, what exactly does combining bastille and vortex do? It's like they decided to combine Larva and Ravenous on Nidus because they both do CC... 

Again, if anything the combination should be on vauban's grenadier skill. Trip has literally no place other than dank memes, you could swap that out with tesla if you really wanted to free up an ability to introduce something new. 

Yes, maybe the game used to be "better," but for the game we have right now, Vauban's kit sucks. Tesla grenades are lame, his mines are lame, Bastille and Vortex were good crowd-control but negligibly different. Combining the two doesn't really deprive the player of anything except possibly casting multiple instances of Bastille depending on how it functions. In that case, players will just have to make do with one very big Bastille.

I wouldn't want the Tesla merged into Minelayer, because Minelayer sucks, pretty much all of them are dull, clunky, and/or useless, I'd be happy with a complete ground-up rework for all of them, and I welcome a new third ability to add some actual variety to his kit as well. I'm not expecting greatness like what they did with Wukong, I'm just hoping whatever they do be better than what Vauban is right now: a guy throwing ineffectual grenades and mines with underwhelming effects, with two good CC abilities that have no good reason to be on the same character.

[Autongnosis]

il y a 7 minutes, (NSW)ToadBlue a dit :

1) I wouldn't want the Tesla merged into Minelayer, because Minelayer sucks, pretty much all of them are dull, clunky, and/or useless, I'd be happy with a complete ground-up rework for all of them, and I welcome a new third ability to add some actual variety to his kit as well. 2) I'm not expecting greatness like what they did with Wukong, I'm just hoping whatever they do be better than what Vauban is right now: 3) a guy throwing ineffectual grenades and mines with underwhelming effects, with two good CC abilities that have no good reason to be on the same character.

1) there are a few reasons why those grenades are bad, but they can be solved really easily by tweaking a few numbers here and there. IE, tesla would be amazing if it had high status chance and if they removed the charge limit. Shred just have too low of a base %, even just 70% would make them a lot more useful. Concuss is crazy good, it could maybe use a few more range but that's it. The worst offenders are bounce and tripwire, where tripwire is literally useless, and bounce would be good if only you could decide where the nade throws people as a mobility and CC tool. 

2) wukong was completely murdered. Greatness? He's more fun, i grant you that, but he lost any ability to take damage. You think that's great?

3) again, the whole deal is that vauban is all but ineffective. Vauban, like Loki, is a single slot defensive measure for the whole team. If you want a whole team could run without survivability mods and have a vauban on the sides and they wouldn't be shot at ever. How is that ineffective again? 

Also, bastille and vortex have a very good reason to be on the same kit. They do entirely different things. It's not like 2 CC skills = 2 identical skills. They have different uses and roles. Taking out one or the other would make his whole kit much worse. 

 

Again, this is Nyx all over again. People these days do not understand those frames and clamour for "reworks", DE kinda obliges trying to shoehorn in pointless meta mechanics into their kit where they really don't fit, and the frames come out much, MUCH worse as a result. 

Sorry if I'm not excited about that. I had to stomach 4 years of murder to the kind of content i generally enjoy, and now they're murdering the last few frames built for that to cater to people who can't tell their mouth from their ass (not you specifically). 

[Marvelous_A]

It might be a good idea to merge his 3 and 4, under the circumstance of the Bastille part of it working correctly coz it's currently the buggiest ability in this game.

And please just remove Tesla and mines completely. They are uselessly complicated. I love the idea of tactical use of mines but all 5 of them just turn out to be useless most of the time.

[(PSN)FriendSharkey]

7 hours ago, Hyro1 said:

Chroma's 2 and 3 do different things, unlike Vauban 3 and 4, which are just 2 different versions of CC

Agreed, but here's the thing...I find myself hitting both all the time...it's like Abbot and Costello in comedy act..you just know when they stand by themselves..it's not as funny..but together running in tandem..you're strangely satisfied...Hence combining the two won't hurt the other..and that allows for a new power to be added....

[Hyro1]

7 minutes ago, (PS4)FriendSharkey said:

Agreed, but here's the thing...I find myself hitting both all the time...it's like Abbot and Costello in comedy act..you just know when they stand by themselves..it's not as funny..but together running in tandem..you're strangely satisfied...Hence combining the two won't hurt the other..and that allows for a new power to be added....

Your right, it won't hurt, but actually it will, seeing how when there are multiple abilities set to one button, you can only use 1 of them, exception being Vauban, Wisp and Ivara, mostly since those are abilities that are applied to enemies or area, rather on the player

Edited September 20, 2019 by Hyro1
edit

[PsiWarp]

Looks like a range boost for Vortex. I hope you can still throw multiple Bastilles then hold 4 to convert them into Vortex. Optional headshot prisons or explosion implosions.

Any news on the 3rd power?

[LSG501]

14 hours ago, Duality52 said:

Think of Titania's Spellbind and Lantern; two abilities with floating CC but causes redundancy.

Bastille and Vortex are similar in that sense, with the only difference being usage of range and energy usage.

Um except titania's abilities do have different usage, one removes status effects and disarms, the other is a cc attraction ability.... not that titania users use anything other than razorwing...

[LSG501]

14 hours ago, (NSW)ToadBlue said:

Both abilities do the same thing: crowd-control in a wide radius that disables enemies and makes them easy to attack. Maybe Vortex could do damage but it was minimal and its real application was the crowd-control. Merging them together gives you the utility of both in a single cast, and frees up a slot for a new ability that would expand Vauban's kit and make him more fun, versatile, and/or effective in play; which is the point of a rework.

LOL, no wonder you think the change is good, you're using Vauban in the simplistic way possible...

No the change is still bad for vaubans utility imo. 

 

[carbman95]

He needs an exalted plasma cutter so I can pretend I am playing a new Dead space game

[Sloan441]

17 hours ago, Autongnosis said:

Ugh. Bastille and vortex merged... Ugh

It's a good thing. They essentially do the same thing, but with weaknesses inherent in both, so you have to choose as the situation dictates. There's nothing really wrong with this when CC is frequently necessary. It no longer is, so now we have half his powers dedicated to a situation that only rarely arises.

Combining them gives a clearer focus and allows something new to be added to the warframe--and it does need something new. 

The fundamental problem is CC isn't that useful these days and both of these are CC powers. Where it is useful, it needs to be effective, hard CC. Combining the two can potentially give you that--a tool that is actually useful when it's needed.

The new power should be oriented around giving Vaubon something useful when CC is not needed. What that might be is up to DE, but I'd hope they'd focus on group buffs (been a trend lately) instead of damage powers. Scaling on the latter has been problematic, but we'll see what comes out of all this. 

[Scruffel]

Okay, so it seems like you can turn the Bastille into Vortex on command. And apparently there seems to be a new ability called "Orbital Strike"

Edited September 20, 2019 by Scruffel

[KnossosTNC]

5 minutes ago, Scruffel said:

Okay, so it seems like you can turn the Bastille into Vortex on command. And apparently combining Tesla and Vortex now causes a massive explosion.

Turning Bastille into Vortex was seen in the previous update. If you looked closely, you could see the ability duration reset as it transforms.

As for this new update, it's not Tesla - that's his new 3. It's currently called [PH] Orbital Strike, and seems to be some sort of AoE damage ability.

Edited September 20, 2019 by KnossosTNC

[(PSN)FriendSharkey]

3 hours ago, Hyro1 said:

Your right, it won't hurt, but actually it will, seeing how when there are multiple abilities set to one button, you can only use 1 of them, exception being Vauban, Wisp and Ivara, mostly since those are abilities that are applied to enemies or area, rather on the player

Are you saying something like Ivara...with her quiver on one power with switching back and forth? I'm saying it's now one power where it used to be two that does both at once...You get the flame shield with the health aura at once on one swipe or press and now you have another power say on his 3 open for De to come up with something else...

Edited September 20, 2019 by (PS4)FriendSharkey

[PsiWarp]

That new Orbital Strike looks pretty badass, like Vauban commands a Railjack or the Orbiter above to launch a massive beam of destruction.

Still, flashy as it is, the damage scaling on it makes or breaks it.

With triple Teslas rollers + Bastille Vortex I hope will also have enough damage and CC combined into them.

Now... show me some great Minelayer changes to give us a reason to bother cycling through them.

[Scruffel]

12 minutes ago, KnossosTNC said:

As for this new update, it's not Tesla - that's his new 3. It's currently called [PH] Orbital Strike, and seems to be some sort of AoE damage ability.

I know, you quoted my mistake before I was able to correct it. 

[Autongnosis]

il y a 28 minutes, Sloan441 a dit :

It's a good thing. They essentially do the same thing, but with weaknesses inherent in both, so you have to choose as the situation dictates. There's nothing really wrong with this when CC is frequently necessary. It no longer is, so now we have half his powers dedicated to a situation that only rarely arises.

Combining them gives a clearer focus and allows something new to be added to the warframe--and it does need something new. 

The fundamental problem is CC isn't that useful these days and both of these are CC powers. Where it is useful, it needs to be effective, hard CC. Combining the two can potentially give you that--a tool that is actually useful when it's needed.

I highlighted a few key paragraphs. 

The problem is that bastille and vortex really don't do the same thing. At all. They can be combined to do one thing better, or used separately to do several different things at once. That will be completely lost if they get combined. 

On top of that i am all in favour of adding something new to vauban's kit. But imo the best way to do that would be to fix his minelayer mechanics, put teslas in there in place of tripwire, and free up a slot that way. 

 

Because combining bastille and vortex would to the opposite of what you said last. They'd lose a lot of functionality for no particular reason. 

[(PSN)IroncladBomber]

11 hours ago, (PS4)CommanderC2121 said:

Explain how you used them differently cause Im not seeing it 

As Vauban is now, Bastille is good for groups of enemies (Enemies that are spread out over an area), Vortex is good against Mobs of enemies (Enemies whom are traveling in a group). One can Lock down an entire area and the other can concentrate them into a single spot to kill with a AOE weapon like the Penta.

[Azamagon]

Guys, merging Vortex and Bastille isn't the end of the world. From the looks of it, I'd even deem it rather useful-looking.

Funnily enough, I was speaking to a friend about giving him an Orbital blast kind of skill, but didn't know how to scale it damagewise. Seems like Scott read my mind though 😄 Hopefully it can be useful for damage, so it's his main nuke-option.

But... a few more important things remains:

Tesla - It's rather useless. What will happen to it?

Minelayer - Is that replaced with those juggled balls? And what's their purpose?

Survivability - One of Vauban's biggest downfalls is that he is incredibly squishy. Some skill that can help him take a few hits (a "Bunker" to compete with Snow Globe, for example, or some personal "Shield Matrix" akin to Turbulence/Mesmer Skin, anything) is something he really lacks.

[Autongnosis]

Il y a 1 heure, (PS4)IroncladBomber a dit :

As Vauban is now, Bastille is good for groups of enemies (Enemies that are spread out over an area), Vortex is good against Mobs of enemies (Enemies whom are traveling in a group). One can Lock down an entire area and the other can concentrate them into a single spot to kill with a AOE weapon like the Penta.

Not just that. 

Bastille creates a buffer zone enemies can't go through. Which is a value in amy kind of scenario, but mostly as a bunker type situation where you pick a defensible spot and hold it. 

You can also use it offensively to perform simple area denial or by throwing enemies off the map. 

Vortex is a buffer type defence that only work in conjunction with others or as a panic button. 

You can use it to effectively extend the radius of protection from Bastille by casting it close to it but outside the radius, pulling the stragglers out of combat.

You can use it to lock the whole bastille ring as a ragdoll chain by casting it just inside the bastille, very useful for melee factions. 

You can use it to pile up enemies for a mass rad proc to create decoys around you to further extend the safe zone. 

You can use it as a killzone creation tool, where putting it in the right place will funnel incoming mobs into your guns. 

You can also use it to lock down spawn accesses and remove the threat of incoming un-CCed units by throwing it to the side or just in front of a doorway, thus ragdolling any incoming units before they get line of sight on you. 

Lastly, you can use it in conjunction with the zenistar to create a mass proc / kill zone to augment your ability to both survive and kill. 

[(PSN)IroncladBomber]

2 minutes ago, Autongnosis said:

Not just that. 

Bastille creates a buffer zone enemies can't go through. Which is a value in amy kind of scenario, but mostly as a bunker type situation where you pick a defensible spot and hold it. 

You can also use it offensively to perform simple area denial or by throwing enemies off the map. 

Vortex is a buffer type defence that only work in conjunction with others or as a panic button. 

You can use it to effectively extend the radius of protection from Bastille by casting it close to it but outside the radius, pulling the stragglers out of combat.

You can use it to lock the whole bastille ring as a ragdoll chain by casting it just inside the bastille, very useful for melee factions. 

You can use it to pile up enemies for a mass rad proc to create decoys around you to further extend the safe zone. 

You can use it as a killzone creation tool, where putting it in the right place will funnel incoming mobs into your guns. 

You can also use it to lock down spawn accesses and remove the threat of incoming un-CCed units by throwing it to the side or just in front of a doorway, thus ragdolling any incoming units before they get line of sight on you. 

Lastly, you can use it in conjunction with the zenistar to create a mass proc / kill zone to augment your ability to both survive and kill. 

And with the new Tap to Swap feature, I think is Great, toss out a Bastille and hold a Doorway or something down so you can deal with something else, and when you are ready just pull them into the same spot and nuke them

[Sloan441]

2 hours ago, Autongnosis said:

The problem is that bastille and vortex really don't do the same thing. 

They do the same thing--they immobilize enemies. They just do it differently and tend to be used in different situations or team makeups. 

This wouldn't be that much of a problem if it was really needed anymore. It isn't and it's half his powers. Merging them and adding something new makes sense. Whether it gets done right is another question /coughNyx/cough. 

I think what has been proposed is hopeful. We'll see when it goes live. Regardless of what comes out, there will be adjustment going from there. Lets hope it's enough.