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Wawus

[Endgame] Why we had it and why we lost it

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1 hour ago, kuciol said:

Gameplay loop is a myth, once you get the fancy stuff out of it you wont come back.

Pretty much only a problem in Warframe. And yes, I'd like them to change that.

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Thats how it works in every game, once you get everything you wanted its done. You got over "gameplay" within week or 2 and then its all about rewards, once you get them its done.

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10 minutes ago, Ikyr0 said:

Pretty much only a problem in Warframe. And yes, I'd like them to change that.

I believe it's more to the individual problem. I'm still playing E Prime exterminate on earth when there's nothing as reward as my gameplay loop but does it apply to you? I believe not because you have other motivation behind doing it outside of gameplay loop

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1 hour ago, kuciol said:

And by that Railjack already failed because you have "expectations". What you dont understand is that no matter what they will introduce we will either cheese it making it trivial or we it wont be played, at all. Gameplay loop is a myth, once you get the fancy stuff out of it you wont come back. You try to convince yourself that its games fault but the problem is simpler, you just got bored and no matter what they add you wont be satisfied. Tell me what should they do : make content for 90% of players that will be to easy for you or make content for 1% that nobody else will play (like raid were)? The answer is obvious.

the same old tired lies by people who entitle themselves the barers of truth

warframe is the only game with no endgame and if you don't know what that means you should play some other games then warframe

(endgame is a content based on introducing new mechanichs in the game that are limited to that content itself, it requires you both to be experienced in the underlaying mechanics of the core game and be appropriately equipped with high tier gears wich you also have to acquire by experiencing the core game. Endgame its meant to be the the cherry of the gameplay in terms of how enticing/involved the mechanics are in order to instill a desire of fruition in the new players and a feeling of reward aswell as a challange for those who can access it)

all of you who keep trowing around you ignorance or disinformative malice: you will probably never go away and it's fine, we won't either though and in terms of carrying  the endgame argument the deeper we go in it the more it is clear you folks are not backed by logic or valid reasons.

Spoiler

i am sure part of DE is fine with people like you anyway, after all if there is no endgame to give you closure they can just keep milking you everytime you launch warframe

 

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9 minutes ago, rhuug said:

the same old tired lies by people who entitle themselves the barers of truth

warframe is the only game with no endgame and if you don't know what that means you should play some other games then warframe

(endgame is a content based on introducing new mechanichs in the game that are limited to that content itself, it requires you both to be experienced in the underlaying mechanics of the core game and be appropriately equipped with high tier gears wich you also have to acquire by experiencing the core game. Endgame its meant to be the the cherry of the gameplay in terms of how enticing/involved the mechanics are in order to instill a desire of fruition in the new players and a feeling of reward aswell as a challange for those who can access it)

all of you who keep trowing around you ignorance or disinformative malice: you will probably never go away and it's fine, we won't either though and in terms of carrying  the endgame argument the deeper we go in it the more it is clear you folks are not backed by logic or valid reasons.

  Reveal hidden contents

i am sure part of DE is fine with people like you anyway, after all if there is no endgame to give you closure they can just keep milking you everytime you launch warframe

 

By that definition, eidolon, exploiter orb, arbitration, ESO and sortie are the endgame

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11 minutes ago, 844448 said:

By that definition, eidolon, exploiter orb, arbitration, ESO and sortie are the endgame

and where are the new mechanics? a timer? a different skinned shield drone?

eidolon is the only thing that can be considere endgame right now, even so it's still just point and shoot, you just have to collect a bunch of lures before in order to skip the only mechanic that would make it more interesting

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Just now, rhuug said:

and where are the new mechanics, a timer? a different skinned shield drone?

eidolon is the only thing that can be considere endgame right now, even so it's still just point and shoot, you just have to collect a bunch of lures before in order to skip the only mechanic that would make it more interesting

eidolon : lures and amps

exploiter orb : throwing canisters

sortie : multi stage mission

eso : efficiency meter from killing enemies

arbitration : invincibility drone that doubles as priority target and weak spot

add one more, profit taker orb : archgun launcher

Quite sure you also put new mechanics that are limited to that content itself which each of those have it

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24 minutes ago, rhuug said:

the same old tired lies by people who entitle themselves the barers of truth

warframe is the only game with no endgame and if you don't know what that means you should play some other games then warframe

(endgame is a content based on introducing new mechanichs in the game that are limited to that content itself, it requires you both to be experienced in the underlaying mechanics of the core game and be appropriately equipped with high tier gears wich you also have to acquire by experiencing the core game. Endgame its meant to be the the cherry of the gameplay in terms of how enticing/involved the mechanics are in order to instill a desire of fruition in the new players and a feeling of reward aswell as a challange for those who can access it)

all of you who keep trowing around you ignorance or disinformative malice: you will probably never go away and it's fine, we won't either though and in terms of carrying  the endgame argument the deeper we go in it the more it is clear you folks are not backed by logic or valid reasons.

The only ignorant one here is you my friend. You cant understand that every time they try introduce new mechanic they fail because its not a kind of game where it fits. The only way we can have any challenge is by limiting us and the moment you start doing it people have problem with it. You cant specify what this engame should be! Every time they introduce something that players like you wanted (kuva survival, eso, arbitrations) you come back here crying for endgame. Such thing simply doesnt exist. The mechanics of game itself and diversity of options completely destroy any chance of meaningfull endgame. Again : you make it to hard and complex people wont play it (Raids), you make it to easy and people will solo it (orbs and eidolons) and you return to entry point. ESO, Arbitrations, Sorties, Kuva survival and bosses are the endgame. Not your cup of tea? To bad but it is what it is. 

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21 hours ago, stormy505 said:

if we use steam achievements, The Great Eidolon Hunt has a completion rate of 5.2% of the playerbase.

Steam achievements are broken. If you completed an achievement in non-steam version and then migrated to steam the achievement will be unlocked in-game, but you are physically unable to obtain it on steam.

For example, I don't have steam achievements for finding a single mod, or leveling a warframe to level 2. I've done those things in my first day of playing 4 years ago, when I didn't have steam.

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16 minutes ago, kuciol said:

The only ignorant one here is you my friend. You cant understand that every time they try introduce new mechanic they fail because its not a kind of game where it fits. The only way we can have any challenge is by limiting us and the moment you start doing it people have problem with it. You cant specify what this engame should be! Every time they introduce something that players like you wanted (kuva survival, eso, arbitrations) you come back here crying for endgame. Such thing simply doesnt exist. The mechanics of game itself and diversity of options completely destroy any chance of meaningfull endgame. Again : you make it to hard and complex people wont play it (Raids), you make it to easy and people will solo it (orbs and eidolons) and you return to entry point. ESO, Arbitrations, Sorties, Kuva survival and bosses are the endgame. Not your cup of tea? To bad but it is what it is. 

 i specified many times, you simply don't care to read or don't know how to do it so that you understand the meaning of what is written.

your statement doesn't follow a logic (this game doesn't fit new mechanichs my god that's a new low) your idea of endgame is not endgame it's just higher lvl mobs and a harder grind(if you play for rivens fine, it's still not endgame) every time they introduce something that is supposed to be endgame it's just that, a higher level grind

also your point about diversity it's plain false becase in the end every weapon those the same basic thing and every ability fits within the same basics categories, warframe it's not some alien thing wich invented them and the game is quite the opposite of complex gameplay wise while all the complaxity is sadly in those systems that have little to nothing to do with gameplay ( crafting, resource mangement and gathering etc.) 

also i'd like to say i never asked for kuva or arbitrations ofr obvious reasonsù

so yea your ignorance is plain, but maybe it's not a matter of ignorance after all

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3 minutes ago, rhuug said:

 i specified many times, you simply don't care to read or don't know how to do it so that you understand the meaning of what is written.

your statement doesn't follow a logic (this game doesn't fit new mechanichs my god that's a new low) your idea of endgame is not endgame it's just higher lvl mobs and a harder grind(if you play for rivens fine, it's still not endgame) every time they introduce something that is supposed to be endgame it's just that, a higher level grind

also your point about diversity it's plain false becase in the end every weapon those the same basic thing and every ability fits within the same basics categories, warframe it's not some alien thing wich invented them and the game is quite the opposite of complex gameplay wise while all the complaxity is sadly in those systems that have little to nothing to do with gameplay ( crafting, resource mangement and gathering etc.) 

also i'd like to say i never asked for kuva or arbitrations ofr obvious reasonsù

so yea your ignorance is plain, but maybe it's not a matter of ignorance after all

Dude do you even read what you say? What mechanics they should introduce? How? They failed so many times because of all the options we have! Ive never said they shouldnt but they simply are not able to make them complex as you want them to be (whatever it means because non of you came with solution). They will fail before being implemented because game itself is complex enough and players cant be bother to engage in them. I dont care what specifically you wanted, things i mentioned are what player base wanted. You as individual are irrelevant. The fact that you point out how we play the game and use only the basic concepts proves my point perfectly. Players are lazy and greedy by nature and thats something you have hard time understanding.

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40 minutes ago, 844448 said:

eidolon : lures and amps

exploiter orb : throwing canisters

sortie : multi stage mission

eso : efficiency meter from killing enemies

arbitration : invincibility drone that doubles as priority target and weak spot

add one more, profit taker orb : archgun launcher

Quite sure you also put new mechanics that are limited to that content itself which each of those have it

eidolon: already said that is the only thing close to a real endgame

EO: throwing canister is just like asking you to switch weapon, it's not really a new mechanic

Sortie: bullflowers it's just 3 different mission with higher level mobs and a modifier, it doesn't even change gameplay at all i regularly ignore the mods and breeze through it anyway usually solo

arbitration: survival with higher lvl mobs and buff that don't change gameplay, it's not a new mechanic

the archgun launcher is a reward not a mechanic exclusive to that content and if it was it would not be enough to vary gameplay form its basic point and shoot you'd just do it with a bigger gun

like i said challenge(wich is arguably present at all in WF) it's not the only thing about endgame

try twist what i said in any way it will still be a logical statement based on what basically every other mmo has ever done and what most people outside warframe agree upon

WoW wouldn't have been what it was withouth raids, Destiny same thing, even a game like Allods had a good endgame and on that note most f2p mmos ( at least those that had rpg components) attempted a conclusive endgame.

oh and on the subject of "well then what is endgame in warframe?"  we had clan wars in the form of solar rails,i went away because of crybabies, and that's just an example but it could be also other stuff as long as it fits the parameters not just on paper

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6 minutes ago, kuciol said:

Dude do you even read what you say? What mechanics they should introduce? How? They failed so many times because of all the options we have! Ive never said they shouldnt but they simply are not able to make them complex as you want them to be (whatever it means because non of you came with solution). They will fail before being implemented because game itself is complex enough and players cant be bother to engage in them. I dont care what specifically you wanted, things i mentioned are what player base wanted. You as individual are irrelevant. The fact that you point out how we play the game and use only the basic concepts proves my point perfectly. Players are lazy and greedy by nature and thats something you have hard time understanding.

dude, can you even read?

because it 's either you can't or you just won't

also you are lazy and greedy, perhaps, i am not and by what you said your opinion is also irrelevant, you know? you beign an individual and all

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I did but you "solutions" are things that already failed or simply do not fit into the game. You have problems understanding that. You mentioned solar rails, you mentioned raid but they failed, nobody wanted them and no, those few of you dont matter in grand scheme of things. Its better to cater towards 95% of players instead of 1%. Again : they cant implement complex mechanics because nobody will play it! You are free to prove me wrong but as seen by past content thats exactly the case.

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2 minutes ago, rhuug said:

eidolon: already said that is the only thing close to a real endgame

EO: throwing canister is just like asking you to switch weapon, it's not really a new mechanic

Sortie: bullflowers it's just 3 different mission with higher level mobs and a modifier, it doesn't even change gameplay at all i regularly ignore the mods and breeze through it anyway usually solo

arbitration: survival with higher lvl mobs and buff that don't change gameplay, it's not a new mechanic

the archgun launcher is a reward not a mechanic exclusive to that content and if it was it would not be enough to vary gameplay form its basic point and shoot you'd just do it with a bigger gun

like i said challenge(wich is arguably present at all in WF) it's not the only thing about endgame

try twist what i said in any way it will still be a logical statement based on what basically every other mmo has ever done and what most people outside warframe agree upon

WoW wouldn't have been what it was withouth raids, Destiny same thing, even a game like Allods had a good endgame and on that note most f2p mmos ( at least those that had rpg components) attempted a conclusive endgame.

oh and on the subject of "well then what is endgame in warframe?"  we had clan wars in the form of solar rails,i went away because of crybabies

So you're going to ignore the exclusive part with various reasons like that and say not a new mechanic when those are in your definition of endgame? Because if we want to see raids like in destiny, it's the same thing you do on normal gameplay so it's not new mechanic then?

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The thing about this whole endgame discussion is that people really does have different vision of endgame and DE just can't keep up with the community's expectation. Let's see what endgame stuffs they gave us and the problems or player's complain with it.

1. Raids

DE tries to follow other game's endgame and made raid that has high level enemies and there were some puzzle mechanic involved in it.

Problems / player complain: the game mode require very high maintenance (bug fixing and stuffs), it really different with the gameplay outside of the raids making it even harder for DE to maintain it (as scott said in a devstream (or was it TP's interview?) 'it is a very specific case require very specific coding where if we fix one thing, others kinda break down'), and the less then 10% of the player base even playing it so it's not even worth to maintaining and they decided to take it out and focus on other aspect of the game.

 

2. ESO

DE tries to challenge player's killing power by giving them tons of high level enemies to kill as fast as possible.

Problems / player complains:

  • Causing the players to use a very specific frames to take down the mission, rendering non damaging frame useless (except for frames like trinity that can support the damager (saryn).
  • Only challenge the dps aspect of the game and it just repeated one round after another.

3. Arbitration

DE tries to give player 'a classic warframe' endgame by giving players the endless mission they already familiar with, but with a few twist.

Personally, I kinda feel like this was released for those players who likes void keys in the past. It's an endless missions and giving player scaling reward with its custom reward table (or at least that's the idea). But of course, there are problems and complains:

  • Lackluster reward.
  • Slow pace because of the double rotation so the enemy's level ramp up slower than normal endless missions (I think they changed this part so it scale faster?)
  • Some people say the 1 death is annoying
  • Some also said the drones is 'artificial' difficulty.

jeez

4. Profit taker fight

Problems / player complains

  • CC!! CC Everywhere!!!
  • Nully Bubbles!!! Bubbles everywhere!!!!!
  • Adds!!! Adds everywhere!!!!
  • Boss's move set / attacks that's not interactive with the players (Boss attack, we dodge it. There are actually some of this in the fight, but it can be ignored and or it's too hectic that we can't anticipate it)

5. Eidolon

Like PT fight, DE tries to add that big boss fight feel to the game. But again, there are some problem with it.

  • Total complete f&*^ fest for some people (I agree the effect is kinda overwhelming, but it kinda gives information of what the boss is doing and give time for players to react.)
  • Only 6 warframes are viable there (Rhino, Chroma, Volt, Harrow, Oberon,Trinity). There are some off meta but most player feels these 6 is the only usable frames.

 

It's not like that DE didn't give endgame to player, they did give it, but it's not in the form of the standard endgame from other game has, and even when they tried, they failed. Problem is there are a very wide variety of players in warframes. Some wants extreme hardcore challenge, some just play very casually to the point they feel orb vallis's enemy (not endgame mind you) is too hard, and some just stuck in the middle enjoying the game as it is and looking forward for next content, and some just care about fashion frame.

Not to mention these players also have different vision of what endgame is. Some want raid like mission, some want monster hunter like mission, some want void key back, and some said wants endgame, but what they really want is reward (I mean... if u want void key back, I think theres arbitration. That's your endgame right there, but yeah what you want is the prime reward, which understandable I also kinda want it).

Personally, I want a multi stage mission where there are a series of missions (like exterminate, spy, mobile defense, and stuffs), but with more twist into it and at the final stage, we fight a boss that have telegraphed attacks that's deadly if not dodged, and maybe borrow some mechanics from WoW's dungeon or raid bosses. The simple mechanic is fine tbh, like the boss encounter spawn adds that can't be CC'ed and will explode, dealing high damage, if not handled quickly by players.

Or heck, I would stoop so low where I just want a star chart where enemies spawn at  level 120.

Idk, I think endgame is not DE's focus. When releasing new content, other developer usually always has endgame in mind (WoW and Destiny with their raids for example), DE seems to just... invent things. And they try to make this new invention of theirs is accessible by the majority of players (or people will backlash like how they put PT behind rep grind).

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5 minutes ago, 844448 said:

So you're going to ignore the exclusive part with various reasons like that and say not a new mechanic when those are in your definition of endgame? Because if we want to see raids like in destiny, it's the same thing you do on normal gameplay so it's not new mechanic then?

please elaborate,as it stands ithe only thing i can say to you is that destiny raid are not just a point and shoot, there are specific mechanics exclusive to each one that need to be understanded in order to progress through the stages

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Just now, rhuug said:

please elaborate,as it stands ithe only thing i can say to you is that destiny raid are not just a point and shoot, there are specific mechanics exclusive to each one that need to be understanded in order to progress through the stages

Bring something from here to there like leviathan raid first phase, which is something you do in your normal gameplay from public event to strike

Stand here to progress, which can be found on pyramidion strike outside of raids

Now, if we want to bring specific mechanics exclusive to each one that need to be understood, Exploiter needs understanding in throwing the canisters at the right place and overheat system to progress. ESO dictates increasing efficiency which means you have to kill enemies faster and faster. Arbitration need understanding about the drone

1 hour ago, rhuug said:

(endgame is a content based on introducing new mechanichs in the game that are limited to that content itself, it requires you both to be experienced in the underlaying mechanics of the core game and be appropriately equipped with high tier gears wich you also have to acquire by experiencing the core game. Endgame its meant to be the the cherry of the gameplay in terms of how enticing/involved the mechanics are in order to instill a desire of fruition in the new players and a feeling of reward aswell as a challange for those who can access it)

this is your first definition of endgame, now you want to add it to be something needed to be understood?

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Il y a 22 heures, GnarlsDarkley a dit :

Which is impossible. We will always find a way to cheese any mission.

Proof me wrong

Considering we will always find a way to cheese, the proper endgame would be an actual difficult mission with a lot of rorating restrictions (weapons, warframe, elements, powers, etc...), which force us the find the way to cheese it.
Basically something that force us to use all the knowledge we can AND play as good as we can with the setup we end up with. Of course, the way to cheese the mission at each rotation will spread, but at least it provide some intersting stuff to do for players who don't want to hear others' strategy, while still making it possible for people who don't like theory craft.

Honestly, I think this would actuall be a working endgame, if this stuff is added to some interesting modular LoR/JV (old raids) puzzles, that make everything more a threat.

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On 2019-07-23 at 2:31 PM, Wawus said:

It is concerning

No it really isn't.  "Veterans" don't keep f2p games alive unless they're stupid pay2win content to milk whales.  "Concerning" would be if they ignored most of the playerbase and started catering solely to the few "hardcore".  (which, full disclosure, are impossible to please anyway because they all have different ideas of what "endgame" is.)

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18 minutes ago, PatternistSlave said:

No it really isn't.  "Veterans" don't keep f2p games alive unless they're stupid pay2win content to milk whales.  "Concerning" would be if they ignored most of the playerbase and started catering solely to the few "hardcore".  (which, full disclosure, are impossible to please anyway because they all have different ideas of what "endgame" is.)

in the specific case of warframe vets are actually the higher spending portion of players since there's nothing else but getting shinier, at least from what i've seen

if railjack was gated behind hours and hours of ranking your clan and building the ships would you refuse to play just because it could be considered endgame ,if it was really challenging would you cry about it asking for it to be easier?

and i don't think the people who want endgame are divisive on what endgame is, that is just something that is trown around in the forums as a quick escape from the discussion

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On 2019-07-23 at 2:44 PM, Lance_Lionroar said:

So, what's the point being made here?

You think the first Nightwave was difficult? The only difficulty it had was the unnecessary addition of "with friends" to a bunch of challenges, which I guess you could consider difficulty for people who aren't social or don't play with people?

And longer survival and defense wave objectives, which simply dragged on for too long. I guess the challenge in those nightwaves was having the will to stay awake for 60 minutes in a survival before extracting. Time consumption does not equal difficulty.

60 minute challenges make it VERY DIFFICULT for me not to quit because they are insulting.

😆

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On 2019-07-23 at 2:44 PM, Lance_Lionroar said:

You think the first Nightwave was difficult?

10x more difficult than the current one

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