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(XB1)Erudite Prime

Buff Profit Taker's Rewards

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5 hours ago, (PS4)BenHeisennberg said:

Right, Nyx actually does something for the fight when soloing, as I would show if I had it uploaded.  Just showing you this to show that even someone not avoiding damage as much as I do and needing more survivability mods can use a squishy frame.

... but the frame at that point isn't squishy, as you are doing everything in your power to turn it into a tank via survivability mods. You are effectively bending that frame out of shape just to be able to claim you can take it into a Profit-Taker fight, at a tremendous cost in effectiveness, which simply proves my point. From what you claimed, Nyx CCs the adds, but that still does not lead to her doing anything with PT, which makes her patently unviable relative to the options people actually pick to go into the fight.

4 hours ago, Drischa said:

"This fight is poorly designed because all the damage verywhere requires that you take a tanky frame!"
"Aha, you see this person built the frame to be tanky and did the fight, proving my point that it's a poorly designed boss!"
No, you just proved the point that you don't know how to build a frame for a fight.

If by "building a frame for a fight" you mean "doing absolutely everything to make a squishy frame tanky, regardless of how useless that frame is at doing the fight otherwise", then yeah, I probably don't know how, because I simply don't see the point. When you're bending over backwards that hard just to be able to say you brought an Ember into a Profit-Taker fight, you could much more easily have just brought in a Chroma or Oberon. Moreover, that does in fact prove my point that durability is mandatory for the fight: when not picking a tanky frame, you're going to have to do everything in your power to build your frame like a tank anyways, at which point you may as well pick a tank, especially since most squishy frames contribute little to nothing to speed up the fight.

4 hours ago, Drischa said:

Wow the boss deals a lot of damage to you, imagine actually taking that information and building your frame to be able to deal with the situation presented rather than expecting the same build to work in all content and complaining when it doesn't.

Except "building your frame to be able to deal with the situation presented" doesn't work very well unless you pick one of the few frames that are naturally good at the fight. Again, just looking at the Ember video, that player took more than twice as long to kill PT than normal, and still nearly died on multiple occasions despite a full tank build. Even though you could technically bring any frame to a Profit-Taker fight, there is still a clear case of some frames being severely inefficient no matter how you build them, and others being hyper-efficient. Moreover, there is an issue with building for survivability when a) the point to Warframe and its movement system is that the player as a baseline is meant to move out of harm's way, not facetank bullets, b) virtually all "endgame" content is so saturated with overly high and nigh-unavoidable damage that the only viable options are tank frames, or nuke frames like Saryn that can kill enemies before they can act (and the latter suffers in missions with lots of ability-immune enemies).

4 hours ago, Drischa said:

Also you straight up lied lol, the profit taker starts the fight at full health:

My mistake, I thought the initial quote was from the third phase, but even so, the fight is still notably dragged out. The fact remains that that player took significantly longer to kill Profit-Taker, and so due to the obvious fact that they're not really using much that gives them any advantage in the fight.

4 hours ago, Drischa said:

This kind of complaint annoys the hell out of me because a bunch of people complain that there's no endgame and nothing to use their powerful mods in, then something like profit taker comes along that actually poses a challenge and everyone complains like they should just get the rewards for watching a cutscene of you killing the thing. And then we get fights like exploiter, a snoozefest of repetitive mechanics without any real threat to yourself if you have any competence at the game.

This kind of complaint annoys me as well because I do in fact want an endgame, I just don't think throwing oodles of poorly-telegraphed damage and crowd control at the player to make them die more often qualifies as an actual "challenge", and I feel the people treating fights like PT like the epitome of challenge in Warframe may not quite have the l33t sk177z they're laying claim to. In the end, the Profit-Taker fight is trivial, because most of it boils down to a gear check: once you have your elemental mods and your tank frame, the core of the fight just boils down to shooting a very big target a few times over, plus some smaller targets along the way, until the fight is won. There is no testing of the player's skill in parkour, shooting, or ability usage, nor is there any deep layer of enemy management besides just popping alert beacons. For all the dressing-up a handful of players on the forums like to give it as a "challenge", Profit-Taker is actually a fairly unchallenging fight, only one made frustrating by a bunch of mechanics that do not add any depth to the encounter, but merely pad for time or make the player more likely to die overall without much to be done about it.

It is worth noting that your own accusation here is also a lie: at no point have I ever asked to make Profit-Taker easier, and in fact I have continually insisted upon reworking PT to deliver a proper challenge, rather than the current fight that pushes most frames out of viability and is trivially easy to the rest. At no point did I or anyone else here ask for free rewards, let alone "rewards for watching a cutscene". In the end, we're not disagreeing in the sense that we both want a challenge, but PT simply ain't it when it comes to delivering a proper challenge, something DE themselves have acknowledged. Insisting upon the contrary while accusing anyone who disagrees of wanting to make PT easier doesn't make you sound elite, it just makes you sound elitist, and desperate to claim mastery over an encounter that isn't actually all that challenging.

4 hours ago, Drischa said:

The problem with profit taker is chroma, not the fight itself.

[citation needed]

But honestly, though, I don't see how this makes any sense: Chroma has some problems, namely the relative uselessness of his 1 and 4 plus the lack of interactivity to his steroids, but I fail to see how those problems relate in any way to Profit-Taker. If you were to take Chroma out of the equation, that would also still leave a fairly tedious fight where only an even smaller pool of frames would be viable, so Chroma in this argument is a complete red herring, particularly in view of what was already discussed.

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10 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

And while we're at it, can we please give the Profit-Taker an actual Sentient Shield? You know, the kind which develops damage resistance as it takes damage, rather than that nonsense of rotating damage types.

^This, Rotating damage even factoring in the ability to change it with Void damage is just a source of padding the fight rather than actually bringing variety, plus since the shield can be cycled by Void damage it has even less of a point in existing as the entire tactical aspect goes from "use the right element" to "dodge random enemy damage until it is weak to a damage type you have".

Eidolons are much better designed because they have grounded and simple mechanics with the Eidolon getting more desperate the weaker it gets rather than being mostly inert and the trash mobs being the bigger threat on average.

Its not a question of Viability, its a question of "Is this even remotely fun to play when the best way is to power through it with raw stats and a tanky frame?" which honestly in my few times running it on Switch (where finding a team for it is like finding a Leprechaun riding a Unicorn on Friday the 13th) it just wasn't worth it to run it.

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51 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

But honestly, though, I don't see how this makes any sense: Chroma has some problems, namely the relative uselessness of his 1 and 4 plus the lack of interactivity to his steroids, but I fail to see how those problems relate in any way to Profit-Taker. If you were to take Chroma out of the equation, that would also still leave a fairly tedious fight where only an even smaller pool of frames would be viable, so Chroma in this argument is a complete red herring, particularly in view of what was already discussed.

The problem you speak to is either a boss is balanced around Chroma to the exclusion of other Warframes, or Chroma trivializes it, or somewhere in between.

I really do not understand what you're trying to say.  You said Chroma is mandatory, and that it is impossible for other Warframes to do.  You talk about giving her easier telegraphing to see, and making it so there's less damage in the fight.  Then you say the Profit Taker is trivial and not an actual challenge while saying that the guy using Ember shouldn't have brought her even though she does it just fine.

What are you actually trying to say?

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14 minutes ago, Aldain said:

Its not a question of Viability, its a question of "Is this even remotely fun to play when the best way is to power through it with raw stats and a tanky frame?"

Yes.  If you like doing something a little harder but quite satisfying, it is.

Sadly, Chroma ruins stuff that's supposed to be challenging by offering cheese.

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One more note:

1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

From what you claimed, Nyx CCs the adds, but that still does not lead to her doing anything with PT, which makes her patently unviable relative to the options people actually pick to go into the fight

The word you're looking for is not "unviable," because she handles the fight just fine when used by someone who can play.  It's "inefficient."

Inefficient is fine when I'm having fun solo.  Are all Warframes unviable at defense unless they're Saryn because she does it the fastest?  Nope!  She's just more efficient.

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14 hours ago, (PS4)BenHeisennberg said:

Personally, Profit Taker is one of the few things in the game I do because I just feel like it, no other particular reason. 

Funny, that’s the exact same feeling I get with the Exploiter.

Maybe ‘cause I’m not a masochist, I dunno.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, (PS4)BenHeisennberg said:

The problem you speak to is either a boss is balanced around Chroma to the exclusion of other Warframes, or Chroma trivializes it, or somewhere in between.

I really do not understand what you're trying to say.  You said Chroma is mandatory, and that it is impossible for other Warframes to do.

So first off, I did not claim that Chroma himself was the only meta frame, as Oberon is also very strong (you're in fact better off taking one Oberon instead of a fourth Chroma). Second, the problem isn't that PT is balanced around Chroma, but that DE's method of making enemies difficult has been to overload them with damage and make them immune to most abilities, which cripples most frames but leaves those with high amounts of personal survivability and steroids unaffected. As someone defined by both, Chroma obviously comes out as a winner. This doesn't mean we should nerf Chroma, this means we should stop designing enemies to invalidate the majority of our tools.

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You talk about giving her easier telegraphing to see, and making it so there's less damage in the fight.  Then you say the Profit Taker is trivial and not an actual challenge while saying that the guy using Ember shouldn't have brought her even though she does it just fine.

I fail to see how the two are mutually exclusive: a fight can be poorly-designed, yet still trivial in its difficulty, as is the case with Profit-Taker. Taking out the pointless adds, making the attacks dodgeable, and so on leaves room for other forms of difficulty, for example by making more telegraphed attacks far more punishing. In its current state, PT is just a gear check, which is why the right frame and build will trivialize the fight (e.g. Chroma), while the rest is far too inefficient to be worth caring about (e.g. Ember, who as demonstrated in that video did not do "just fine", as her run was incredibly inefficient).

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What are you actually trying to say?

It's not very complicated: we need actual challenge in the form of skill-testing, which is different from simply gear-checking the player on their elemental mods and raw EHP. For all its flaws, at least Exploiter tests the player on some skill, even if it's not a skill used anywhere else in the game, which is one of the reasons why the fight is generally considered more enjoyable overall than Profit-Taker. I'm saying you need to stop obsessing over trying to convince others on this thread that you're exceptionally skilled in Warframe, and perhaps try to understand that frustration does not equate to challenge, and that players asking for less frustrating gameplay are not necessarily asking for easier or less challenging gameplay. DE themselves have said they've moved on from that kind of poor design, it's time you did as well.

1 hour ago, (PS4)BenHeisennberg said:

One more note:

What is it with people spam-posting on the forums? The edit button exists for a whole bunch of reasons, one of them being that you can retroactively add content to your posts, instead of posting three times in a row and taking up significantly more page space in the process. At the very least, try to rein yourself in and think a little more about what you're going to be posting before hitting the "Submit Reply" button, especially after the first two times.

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The word you're looking for is not "unviable," because she handles the fight just fine when used by someone who can play.  It's "inefficient."

You are simply inventing definitions of your own to dodge the point at hand, a rhetorical tactic whose utility I fail to grasp. Fact of the matter is, Nyx is by your own admission inefficient, to the point where she is hardly, if ever seen when running PT. When typically talking about a metagame, "viable" tends to refer to options that are consistently picked, and "unviable" to options that are not. As Nyx is not picked to run PT with any amount of consistency, she can therefore be called unviable. Meanwhile, frames like Inaros or Trinity are picked more often, even if they're not as optimal as Chroma or Oberon: they are thus viable, even if they aren't dominant or optimal.

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Inefficient is fine when I'm having fun solo.  Are all Warframes unviable at defense unless they're Saryn because she does it the fastest?  Nope!  She's just more efficient.

You seem to be confusing "viable" with "optimal", which would be the only way of explaining the above nonsense. You also seem to be under the impression that Saryn is the optimal frame for defense, when the existence of Limbo, Volt, Mesa, Equinox, Speeva, Nidus, Oberon, and so on demonstrate that this is patently not the case. Even if she were, there's a difference between being marginally more efficient at some part of the game than most others, and being so inefficient relative to what's actually picked that no rational person would go with those options outside of bragging rights. You personally bringing in Nyx to solo Profit-Taker does not single-handedly make Nyx viable, in the same way that picking Ember into Arbitration and surviving once for more than ten minutes does not make her a viable frame there either.

Edited by Teridax68
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6 hours ago, mac10smg--Toa_of_Green said:

Funny, that’s the exact same feeling I get with the Exploiter.

Maybe ‘cause I’m not a masochist, I dunno.

I'm actually the same way. I never bother with the Profit-Taker unless I need more Toroids, but the Exploiter I'll fight for fun. Largely because it's not just a cluster#*!% of Terra Corpus piling damage into me and pinballing me around while the boss itself is a giant DPS check. The Exploiter may be a series of minigames, but at least those don't require me to min/max the crap out of my build in order to compete.

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6 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

DE's method of making enemies difficult has been to overload them with damage and make them immune to most abilities, which cripples most frames but leaves those with high amounts of personal survivability and steroids unaffected.

It's a bit difficult to open bosses up to abilities without allowing stuff to happen like Mesa gunning them down, but yeah.  That is unfortunate.

6 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

while the rest is far too inefficient to be worth caring about

Yes, that is a way to look at it.  Again though:  does speed of completion narrow down your options to only nuke frames in regular content?

6 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

You are simply inventing definitions of your own to dodge the point at hand, a rhetorical tactic whose utility I fail to grasp.

Mate you literally changed the definition of viability to suit your needs lol.  Go grab a dictionary.  Again, are your Warframe choices similarly restricted to just the most efficient option in every mission?

And again:  if 3 to 4 minute difference of completion = literally impossible, I best see ya bringing a nuke frame everywhere.  You are trying to claim that we cannot have variety because you rely on a crutch to cheese the fight.  Either the Profit Taker is trivial, or the Profit Taker requires an optimized Warframe.  As we have shown you, the latter is subjective based on the player's ability to play and mod.  Certainly a far cry from your "squishy Warframes are literally impossible" on the first page.

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

For all its flaws, at least Exploiter tests the player on some skill, even if it's not a skill used anywhere else in the game, which is one of the reasons why the fight is generally considered more enjoyable overall than Profit-Taker. I'm saying you need to stop obsessing over trying to convince others on this thread that you're exceptionally skilled in Warframe, and perhaps try to understand that frustration does not equate to challenge, and that players asking for less frustrating gameplay are not necessarily asking for easier or less challenging gameplay. DE themselves have said they've moved on from that kind of poor design, it's time you did as well.

You said on the first page you disagree with making Exploiter an arcade game, but that's literally DE's response to Profit Taker feedback.  Exploiter takes zero skill because she poses zero threat.  I like to fight and kill tough enemies, not be coddled.

By definition:  if squishy Warframes are literally impossible for you to complete Profit Taker, and we're doing it with only the difference of 3 or 4 minutes, it is a matter of skill.  If we ever do get an endgame, you're probably one of the people who's gonna ask to get it nerfed because you died on your first run, so it's "literally impossible."

Second comment because of an editing issue with the first one btw 😉

Edited by (PS4)BenHeisennberg

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Complaining that profit taker is a gear-check... At least it's checking something of the player, exploiter is just a button pressing check. the only check is that the player can stand in the line of ire from her underneath cannon long enough to throw a canister and shoot it, and have enough damage on their weapons to kill coolant raknoids fast enough to stop them cooling her.

Profit taker's attacks are pretty telegraphed in that you can see them all coming from her - her cannon has a delay before hitting (more than enough to bullet jump out the way) and the missiles are pretty visible in the air.

I agree that the deign of the boss does not suit a lot of warframes because there's usually some kind of tankiness/dps balance in that more squishy frames have some kind of other quality that makes them strong. Of course chroma just throws this out the window by having weapon damage and decent tankiness in one package which makes pretty much any design of a boss irrelevant unless it depends on external mechanics not involving weapons. You could even argue that chroma is more efficient for exploiter because of the damage phases in the fight. But other frames can do it just fine, a bit slower perhaps. They're still viable. Just less efficient.

I don't get why you're complaining about having to maximize your build and a boss being a gear check - in a game that is literally all about gathering gear and building it. That's the point of the game. The thread asks for better rewards from profit taker - what would better rewards do if not allow you to get more powerful items faster?

Imagine if profit taker was vulnerable to warframe abilities - you'd have frames like mesa and saryn able to use their DPS on her and you'd have to stack her health and shields even higher.

The thing is with warframe is that with how it's designed, it's incredible difficult to make an actual 'skill' check - what actually is skill in this game? parkour? accuracy with weapons? reaction time? Most of the defining factor for how a player performs is in their build and use of it, so having boss design check that is perfectly fine in my opinion.

I'm not really fine with fights being dragged out by mechanics that don't require any investment or 'skill' from the player like exploiter. Exploiter is an ok fight, but it's more of an interactive setpiece than a real boss fight to me.

 

On-Topic - I agree that profit takers toroids should reward a similar amount to exploiter. I think that all orb fights rewarding 10k standing would be good, and then it's a choice of which kind of fight the player would like to play. Gear-gated like profit taker, or time-gated like exploiter.

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3 hours ago, (PS4)BenHeisennberg said:

It's a bit difficult to open bosses up to abilities without allowing stuff to happen like Mesa gunning them down, but yeah.  That is unfortunate.

As opposed to what, Chroma gunning them down with his 875%+ damage bonus? "That is unfortunate" is a rather mealy-mouthed response to a serious problem affecting most frames in the game, particularly when alternatives such as damage resistance to abilities exist and are fine.

3 hours ago, (PS4)BenHeisennberg said:

Yes, that is a way to look at it.  Again though:  does speed of completion narrow down your options to only nuke frames in regular content?

By what do you mean "regular content"? Enemies in the Star Chart die to anything and don't deal any real damage, so nuke frames don't really add that much of a benefit in most content, whereas in Sortie missions the format will not always favor nuke frames, e.g. when it comes to certain defensive missions like Excavation. When it comes to those Nightwave challenges that require killing 150 enemies with X damage type, you bet that if that damage type is attached to a frame ability, I'm going to pick that frame and run E prime until it's done, because that is absolutely by far the most efficient method.

3 hours ago, (PS4)BenHeisennberg said:

Mate you literally changed the definition of viability to suit your needs lol.  Go grab a dictionary.  Again, are your Warframe choices similarly restricted to just the most efficient option in every mission?

When the difference in efficiency is in the multiples, absolutely. Yours is a rather pathetic attempt at a "no u" here: you're not even attempting to defend yourself, you're just accusing me of doing exactly what you've been called out for doing. I'm not changing any definitions here, I'm pointing out that you are using the definition of viability in a manner that does not reflect how the notion of viability is discussed in a metagame.

3 hours ago, (PS4)BenHeisennberg said:

And again:  if 3 to 4 minute difference of completion = literally impossible, I best see ya bringing a nuke frame everywhere. 

Except I specifically mentioned that I never claimed it to be literally impossible, I merely pointed out that it was grossly inefficient and more difficult than a whole host of other options. You seem to think nuke frames are all-powerful in all content when they really aren't, which suggests you may not in fact be as familiar with high-level content as you're trying to come across either.

3 hours ago, (PS4)BenHeisennberg said:

You are trying to claim that we cannot have variety because you rely on a crutch to cheese the fight.  Either the Profit Taker is trivial, or the Profit Taker requires an optimized Warframe.  As we have shown you, the latter is subjective based on the player's ability to play and mod.  Certainly a far cry from your "squishy Warframes are literally impossible" on the first page.

But it's obviously not subjective, as your video showed that there is an objective difference in efficiency, and as you yourself implicitly admitted, it is "unfortunate" that fights like Profit-Taker invalidate almost the entire kit of a great deal many frames, which is what reduces variety, not the "crutches" you speak of. You are rather transparently trying to push an agenda here against Chroma, and deliberately ignoring the actual issues at hand even as you discuss them in other parts of your response.

3 hours ago, (PS4)BenHeisennberg said:

You said on the first page you disagree with making Exploiter an arcade game, but that's literally DE's response to Profit Taker feedback.  Exploiter takes zero skill because she poses zero threat. 

I said I disliked Exploiter because the entire fight is a minigame that has no bearing on how the rest of Warframe actually plays. I made no criticism of its difficulty or challenge, that's purely on you. Exploiter does in fact take skill, because you do need to aim that canister properly during the first phase. Threat does not correlate with skill, and is much less the only skill test in a game, and while Profit-Taker is certainly more threatening, it does not actually require skill to fight. I have asked you on several occasions now what skills Profit-Taker tested, and in stark contrast to your enthusiasm to double or even triple post, you have conspicuously remained silent on the matter.

3 hours ago, (PS4)BenHeisennberg said:

I like to fight and kill tough enemies, not be coddled.

No, you just visibly want to feel better than other people by claiming elite status to a piece of content in a video game that's not actually challenging, and insulting the skill and intelligence of people who make valid criticism of said content. If you wanted an actual challenge, you wouldn't be opposing suggestions to make PT more challenging.

3 hours ago, (PS4)BenHeisennberg said:

By definition:  if squishy Warframes are literally impossible for you to complete Profit Taker, and we're doing it with only the difference of 3 or 4 minutes, it is a matter of skill. 

... what? How does one follow from the other? How is any of this "by definition"? You are making zero sense here, and seem to be confused as to what constitutes gear checks, skill, and definitions.

3 hours ago, (PS4)BenHeisennberg said:

If we ever do get an endgame, you're probably one of the people who's gonna ask to get it nerfed because you died on your first run, so it's "literally impossible."

And your justification for this lovely little bit of elitist ad hominem is justified by...?

3 hours ago, (PS4)BenHeisennberg said:

Second comment because of an editing issue with the first one btw 😉

If you can't edit your post... submit a bug report? Being deliberately antisocial isn't really going to make you look any better here.

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Posted (edited)

Look, I enjoy Profit Taker.  If I only fought her for "elitism," I'd go through the effort upload footage and post it here instead of the other guy.

Just because a particular frame does it more efficiently, doesn't mean it's mandatory.  Yes, it sucks that many abilities have no place in the fight, though that's in large part due to the game's powercreep creating trivializing abilities.  I would love for the Profit Taker to incorporate more abilities.

What's dumb is when people complain that a boss fight has a lot of damage, and their incapability of dealing with it is going to result in defanging the game even further, as seen in the second orb.  Which by the way...

30 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Exploiter does in fact take skill, because you do need to aim that canister properly during the first phase.

No...  It really doesn't lol.

And continuing to claim that viability doesn't mean "can accomplish the mission" when I distinctly remember that being the community definition (as well as the dictionary definition) over a year ago, doesn't help your case. 

Yes, if you want an easy fast fight, certain Warframes will always be the best choice.  That goes for literally everything in the game.  Claiming that the presence of damage makes most of the roster unable to do the fight is, as you say, "patently wrong."

From page 1:

"Yet most players apparently did. I for one have never seen any squishy frame enter a Profit-Taker fight and survive for very long, which makes your claims to maining Nyx in the encounter raise an eyebrow."

"If it were made feasible for the player to be able to move out of harm's way, there would likely be much more of a place for squishy frames (though PT's ability immunity would still not help in many cases), but as it stands there is such an excessive amount of damage that is impossible or unreasonably difficult to dodge that they're just not viable in that kind of content."

"Unless you plan on moving way out of the fighting area and/or staying constantly in Operator Mode, you're not going to be able to reliably mitigate that kind of damage."

These comments are "patently wrong" and poor feedback.  I can mitigate and avoid the Profit Taker's damage fairly easily with a squishy Warframe, as can others.

Edited by (PS4)BenHeisennberg
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4 hours ago, Drischa said:

The thing is with warframe is that with how it's designed, it's incredible difficult to make an actual 'skill' check - what actually is skill in this game? parkour? accuracy with weapons? reaction time? Most of the defining factor for how a player performs is in their build and use of it, so having boss design check that is perfectly fine in my opinion.

There's no gameplay there, though. You win or you lose in the Arsenal. The actual mission is a foregone conclusion, to the point where the game might as well offer a strategy-game-style "auto-resolve" option. When all that matters is min/maxing your build to match the gear check and literally nothing else, then the game gets really boring really fast. Warframe shouldn't be that game, though, because it's not an RPG. It's a shooter with RPG elements, but lack of proper balance and encounter design has allowed said RPG elements to all but entirely override actual gameplay. Why bother dodging attacks when you can just tank them? Why bother aiming for weak points (that don't exist) when you can just one-shot everything. Hell, why bother with guns when you can just push a button and clear the room over and over again.

The same applies to the Profit-Taker. Yes, HER attacks are telegraphed, but it hardly matters when everything else is constantly pouring lethal amounts of damage into players across the entire fight? If you build for enough toughness to tank the Terra Corpus damage - and I did - there really isn't anything the Profit-Taker itself can do to you at that point. So the "intended" way to approach the fight is to suck all the gameplay out of it and turn it into a chore.

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Posted (edited)

So since i see this thread turned into a massive f-fest of ramblings, lets talk about design check of FUN gameplay, by taking some pages from Destiny 2`s Leviathan first raid fight just to give some examples of what could be CREATIVE fun ways D.E. could make boss fights interesting.

  • One of the raid stages requires players to stand on platforms & shoot certain switches to open gates, to allow another  player to keep progressing thru a obstacle course while holding a ticking timebomb and cool it off with light orbs so they can have it last long enough to dunk it in the middle of the stage. Repeating the process till everyone has to run the course. The creative design of this is it requires players co-operating, doing small bits of parkour while not screwing up. Granted warframe is not really a game design to have a stage wipe and have players reset, but having bosses designed around doing moment of parkour to say reach a certain switch to stop a enemy from dropping a nuke on all the players would be a fine example of more creative gameplay that works better with skill instead of gear.
  • Another one of the stages has players constantly rotating between specific panels to keep from dying, having the one rotating in would get a refresher on the buff that keeps them from taking heavy damage on the panels. Honestly warframe would not work that well with co-op based things but by having players have to pay attention to something like a nasty debuff during a boss fight and disengaging from the boss in time to purge the debuff before it arms and starts dishing out heavy damage(like say some infestation debuff to give an example???), is another example on how warframe can have slightly more creative boss fights.

Ultimately it would be a basis on a player with no real difficulty in doing with basically any frame would have to make use of skills that likely do not get used that often in boss fights, like wall climbing, running, etc. Which if designed well, could prevent cheese like void dash spamming to speed thru it(or just have it be a sentient/infested fight that punishes you if you try to use operator mode during the fight) and similar gags. Some people may not like it when enemies get damage gated, but i find a damage gate where people need to do a thing to stop them from killing everyone is better then a simple damage sponge with a bunch of frustrating cluster fk of generic enemies getting in your way.

 

Edited by Avienas

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5 hours ago, (PS4)BenHeisennberg said:

Look, I enjoy Profit Taker.  If I only fought her for "elitism," I'd go through the effort upload footage and post it here instead of the other guy.

Or, alternatively, you simply can't walk the talk. It's not that complicated.

5 hours ago, (PS4)BenHeisennberg said:

Just because a particular frame does it more efficiently, doesn't mean it's mandatory.

You keep bleating out the same point when it's been addressed already: the problem isn't simply when a frame is more efficient, the problem arises when a tiny subset of frames are massively more efficient than others, or conversely when a whole bunch of frames are significantly less efficient in running relevant content. This is the case with most squishy caster frames, which not only have trouble with Profit-Taker, but don't really have a place in Arbitrations either, and only a subset of them are viable in ESO. When most of your kit is rendered unable to function, and when an essential trait needed to win is simply not innate to your frame, that I think does set the bar for unviability, and conversely when a frame is head and shoulders above the rest, that does make it mandatory in relevant content.

5 hours ago, (PS4)BenHeisennberg said:

  Yes, it sucks that many abilities have no place in the fight, though that's in large part due to the game's powercreep creating trivializing abilities.  I would love for the Profit Taker to incorporate more abilities.

This entire line of text is vapid and wishy-washy. Incorporate more abilities how? Are you asking for PT to selectively be vulnerable to more abilities, forcing players to memorize tons of special-casing, or are you asking for PT to be rendered vulnerable to abilities in general in some form? Also, the problem isn't with the game "trivializing" abilities, let alone through power creep, the problem is with the game outright preventing abilities from functioning properly, by constantly designing enemies that negate the player's casting through immunity or nullification.

5 hours ago, (PS4)BenHeisennberg said:

What's dumb is when people complain that a boss fight has a lot of damage, and their incapability of dealing with it is going to result in defanging the game even further, as seen in the second orb.  Which by the way...

But that's not dumb at all, because the only way to mitigate the damage is simply to pick a tanky frame. That's not a skill test, that's a gear check. If a boss enemy had some random chance to instakill the player character and fail them the mission at any point in time, that could certainly make for a more difficult fight, because players would die more often, but ultimately that doesn't really lead to a more interesting or skilful fight overall, because the mechanic as stated isn't really something the player can reliably play around. The same can be said of a fight that throws damage at the player in such excessive amounts that there is little to be done except run a tanky frame.

5 hours ago, (PS4)BenHeisennberg said:

No...  It really doesn't lol.

Yes... it really does. Lol.

5 hours ago, (PS4)BenHeisennberg said:

And continuing to claim that viability doesn't mean "can accomplish the mission" when I distinctly remember that being the community definition (as well as the dictionary definition) over a year ago, doesn't help your case. 

Then by all means, please pull out the dictionary and "community definition" that states just that. As it stands, you are rather blatantly lying, as you are not using a standard of viability used in any gaming community.

5 hours ago, (PS4)BenHeisennberg said:

Yes, if you want an easy fast fight, certain Warframes will always be the best choice.  That goes for literally everything in the game.  Claiming that the presence of damage makes most of the roster unable to do the fight is, as you say, "patently wrong."

Patently wrong... how? Again, the example you picked of Ember proves my point, that durability is mandatory to that fight and puts squishy frames at a severe disadvantage, a statement that is proven, not contradicted by a squishy frame needing to go with the tankiest build possible just to survive PT. There is a reason why most frames aren't seen running Profit-Taker, and you pulling out the extreme edge case of one player running PT with a squishy frame and (barely) succeeding doesn't contradict this in any way.

5 hours ago, (PS4)BenHeisennberg said:

These comments are "patently wrong" and poor feedback.  I can mitigate and avoid the Profit Taker's damage fairly easily with a squishy Warframe, as can others.

How are any of those comments "patently wrong" or "poor feedback"? Simply dismissing things being said and calling them names does not make for intelligent discussion, because you are citing strictly no reason for your claims, which in the end doesn't really come across as particularly mature. Similarly, anecdotal evidence such as "I can mitigate and avoid the Profit Taker's damage fairly easy with a squishy Warframe" is not only incapable of satisfying the more general point you are trying to make, it is simply a lie, as there is a plethora of damage sources that home in on the player and can only be completely avoided through Void Mode, which the player cannot enter for literally every enemy in the fight. What even is the broader point you are trying to make here? Because bragging about how you're so skilled at Profit-Taker and how everyone who complains about the fight is a big loser with no skill isn't really a point in itself, it's more akin to that kid in middle school who insisted that his dad owns Nintendo.

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Posted (edited)

Not even sure what to quote from that.  Your responses have devolved into "no you" and weird accusations.  Also, dictionary definition is on page 1 for your viewing.

Please, before further attempts to critique any of the game's tougher content, reach a point where you can effectively complete it in multiple ways, as others have done.

Edit:  ah very well, an answer to part of it in the form of a question.  Does the perfect boss fight involve no survivability?  Because Ember having some defense mods apparently invalidates that guy's run.  Which, I'm pretty sure, you are personally unable to emulate.

Edited by (PS4)BenHeisennberg
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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, (PS4)BenHeisennberg said:

Not even sure what to quote from that.  Your responses have devolved into "no you" and weird accusations.  Also, dictionary definition is on page 1 for your viewing.

And the dictionary definition does not lend support to your thesis, unless you are willing to stretch the duration of "working successfully" to literally any hyper-inefficient span of time, even though that would not be considered a success to most players (if it were, why aren't more players picking these frames to those missions?).

Quote

Please, before further attempts to critique any of the game's tougher content, reach a point where you can effectively complete it in multiple ways, as others have done.

For someone so offended at "weird accusations", this is a doozy. Ultimately, this is what your argument really seems to boil down to: you're not here to really discuss Profit-Taker, you're here to try your best to brag about how elite you supposedly are for being able to beat PT while bringing in some garbage frame like Nyx, in complete apparent ignorance of how doing so makes you a dead weight to your team. Conversely, when someone dares to criticize the fight for its poor design, your immediate response is to accuse them of being unskilled, or for being unable to be as elite as you for not wanting to bring in a notoriously inefficient frame to the fight. On the first few tries I did bring in Volt and Equinox, and managed to complete the fight, but in both cases it was simply not efficient, and that remains my point: you have this bizarre obsession with trying to put words in my mouth and make me say that it's impossible to complete PT as a squishy frame, but my point has always simply been that doing so is extremely inefficient, if still possible, and so due to the obvious reason that the encounter is saturated with damage and ability immunity. You yourself acknowledge this, so really, insisting upon the above kind of elitist ad hominem instead of any sort of proper debate is a tad pathetic.

Quote

Edit:  ah very well, an answer to part of it in the form of a question.  Does the perfect boss fight involve no survivability?  Because Ember having some defense mods apparently invalidates that guy's run.  Which, I'm pretty sure, you are personally unable to emulate.

Yes, I'd say a perfect boss fight in Warframe should not require the player to build for survivability; I think it should instead encourage the player to move around and use their skillset in order to avoid damage. Parkour is more central to the game than sheer tankiness, and the fact that the game pushes more on the latter than the former in its current "endgame" content shows that there are some serious systemic problems with how Warframe's combat is currently implemented, not to mention pushes a lot of frames out of viability. What's ironic about your attempted insult here is that requiring defense mods aren't a test of skill, they're a gear check, which makes it incredibly easy to emulate: if I really was feeling masochistic, I too could simply copy-paste that Ember's build and go for an incredibly inefficient Profit-Taker run. By contrast, if the player were challenged on their parkour mastery, that would in fact be a skill test, which is likely why you don't seem to favorable to the idea: as mentioned above already, I've asked you quite a few times which skills Profit-Taker actually tested. Despite your insistence that Profit-Taker required skill to fight, at least when it comes to personally distinguishing you from the rabble, you have deliberately refused to answer the question, which suggests you yourself know that PT doesn't actually test the player on any skill, but are unwilling to admit this as it would defeat your argument (and give your elitist attitude no ground to stand on in the process).

Edited by Teridax68

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