Why is conclave the way it is, and not, the way it isn't?

[IzzyTH-I51]

Sorry if that titles kinda dumb, trying to think of a way to ask this without biasing the question in a certain way.

But I'm asking, why is conclave this seemingly super competitive mode, and not more of an unreal tournament, or halos action sack, or other similarly less serious versions of what this is.

Now, I'm not saying it's bad, it's fine, I occasionally have fun playing it, when I can actually find more than one other person playing.

But it's like the final destination all items off stock battle of PvP modes, I do enjoy that, but a lot of us also enjoy the occasional casual match.

But I suppose I've repeated my point enough, why so serious and not so fun? 

What's the point of making this topic? Well I recently realised DE had a hand in other, I'd consider much better, PvP creations, so just kind of wondering why conclave lacks the flavour of previous arcade PvPs.

[ant99999]

Because the team working on it tried to make it as similar to the main game as possible.

Ironically enough, what makes a PvE game a casual horde shooter also make a PvP game a hardcore arena. And that is of course movement. Conclave seems to be the most refined version of Warframe PvP - the same warframes but fughting against each other (although they still had to make some balance adjustments).

Other types of PvP you see in the game, like Frame fighter, have nothing in common with the main game, so DE was free to make them more casual.

Or if you referring to earlier DE's games, well, the movement there was a lot simpler and didn't turn the player into a living rocket shooting guns with pinpoint accuracy.

[Kontrollo]

Can you elaborate a bit? Or send me a PM, I can probably answer your questions.

[kgabor]

Are we talking about the same Conclave here or the same game?

The one with the dumb 'just bulletjump on small maps and pray you kill your opponent faster spraying full auto than the other way around for efficient progression' meta?

Because that's what i saw almost every time i seen videos about Conclave and i wouldn't even call that hardcore jokingly.

[ant99999]

55 минут назад, kgabor сказал:

Are we talking about the same Conclave here or the same game?

The one with the dumb 'just bulletjump on small maps and pray you kill your opponent faster spraying full auto than the other way around for efficient progression' meta?

Because that's what i saw almost every time i seen videos about Conclave and i wouldn't even call that hardcore jokingly.

Well I really don't know if we are talking about the same Conclave, especially taking into considerarion your profile statistics.

It seems to me that the iteration of Conclave where you only watch videos instead of actually playing is indeed quite different from the one we are talking about.

[IzzyTH-I51]

@ant99999 i do like frame fighter a bit more, the only thing i don't love about it is that its street fighter, if it was more smash I'd probably play it more often then the main game.

 

@kgabor and @Kontrollo to further elaborate, what I'm getting at is the mode is essentially the most default possible settings for a mode like this, balanced movement, balanced weapons, and only that. hence my reference to the most default settings of smash bros, "final destination all items off stock battle" its a simple test of skill versus your opponent, but to my understanding that's one of the least played versions of PvP shooting (and one of the most played of fighting games probably) the loadout options we have do break it up a little, but its still essentially like picking the same character as your opponent in a fighting game, or only allowing one weapon in a shooting game, I'm not saying its not fun, it can be, but i am saying no one is playing it and that's because they don't want to.

so why is it like this, and not like just straight up cocaine of an arcade shooter?

with what @ant99999 said with "Because the team working on it tried to make it as similar to the main game as possible." and with what i just said "the loadout options we have do break it up a little" I'm starting to think at this point maybe its an engine constraint, i don't want to think of ideas of how it could be better, no one cares, but i can say other games for the most part don't rely on a loadouts to be your only source of weaponry, that might bring some juice into it.

and @kgabor by casual i don't mean hardcore, i wouldn't call it hardcore either. i mean the most generic settings the balance, everyone is the same, its only skill, and its just to see who can kill each other first, there's nothing more than that, no map control, no "power weapons" its almost as interesting as standing next to your opponent, shooting them, letting them shoot you, and repeating. "hey you died" "hey YOU died" "that's great wanna go play anything else?"

and then @ant99999 for your @kgabor "It seems to me that the iteration of Conclave where you only watch videos instead of actually playing is indeed quite different" even though this is taken out of context, this is my point watching a battle of conclave doesn't make you go, "i need that for my life" where watching a match of halo or gears of war, or call of duty, most people go "i want that injected in my bloodstream right now" its just, with 40+ playable characters over 500 different weapons, only the PvE is like this, why not also have PvP like this, why not "i need this" for conclave?

i mean, the question is a circle jerk, why not? cause warframe is a PvE game, no one gives a S#&$ about PvP, go play something else if you want PvP. could they make conclave a dope ass hook, sure if they took a couple month to a year to work on something that statistically doesn't look like it would give anything back to the company.

although that's not the source of the question, and the actual question is essentially meaningless, "why did DE pick these settings, and not a zany arcade shooter?"

but that question is also without contrast, if i remember correctly, wasn't conclave at one point in the beginning of warframe just like PvE where everything is kind of weak and not fully matured. was it being played more back then? did people want to play it? i didn't play conclave at all back then, i don't think i even noticed it existed until a few more years later, so maybe its taking a vauban route? its just not what it used to be and really not what it should be at this point.

Edited July 24, 2019 by IzzyTH-I51

[Fluff-E-Kitty]

Conclave stooped being fun for me some time ago. not a lot of people play it and when you rank up you get very few people to mach with.

Iv argued for a long time that the conclave specific mods should be usabule in the rest of the game... partly because I want them to be even if not very usefull and partly because it might drum up interest in pvp. 

I just wanted the skins from the max tire, but I gave up on it. 

D2s pvp is pretty grate tho if your looking for a game that does PVE/PVP devide pretty well.

[ant99999]

59 минут назад, IzzyTH-I51 сказал:

and then @ant99999 for your @kgabor "It seems to me that the iteration of Conclave where you only watch videos instead of actually playing is indeed quite different" even though this is taken out of context, this is my point watching a battle of conclave doesn't make you go, "i need that for my life" where watching a match of halo or gears of war, or call of duty, most people go "i want that injected in my bloodstream right now" its just, with 40+ playable characters over 500 different weapons, only the PvE is like this, why not also have PvP like this, why not "i need this" for conclave?

Although what I answered to him had to be said, because I know where this kind of arguements tend to lead, I actually understand his and your points very well (just please don't act like you know everything while all you've done was watching videos). And to be completely fair, I had the exact same point when I started getting into the Conclave.

But then playing it, trying to understand what it was about, becoming acquainted with Conclave Feedback population's view, I realised that the state of Conclave is a bit more complicated than it might seem at first sight.

As you mention, it's all a circle jerk, well actually a circle jerk of circle jerks. With all the good intentions PvP team had to make all the main game's mechanics into PvP to make everyone happy, yet they somehow managed to instead fail everyone. But the worst thing is that the Conclave doesn't try to break this circle in any way, it doesn't develop. They just do some balance tweaks (which is good of course, making it a surprisingly balanced experience), but nothing further.

So they let this situation stay like that for... a bunch of years, and, guess what, it got worse (what a surprise).

Now the majority of playerbase intentionally doesn't play PvP (the guy I answered to has 0:0 k/d) because they are told it is bad, and they in their turn tell everyone it is bad either (it's amazing how this process doesn't even require actually playing PvP).

And the ones who play it (and populate Conclave Feedback) while having good intentions to prevent false accusations and counter the omnipresent "delete Conclave" kind of feedback ended up being stubborn to any new ideas in general, even the great ones, in the end providing minimal useful feedback despite having all the experience and skill required.

It should probably not surprise you now, why the Conclave isn't "i need that for my life" while Halo or Gears of War (I wish I had an Xbox) seem to be.

It's sad really if you think of it.

[Kontrollo]

1 hour ago, IzzyTH-I51 said:

...

@kgabor and @Kontrollo to further elaborate, what I'm getting at is the mode is essentially the most default possible settings for a mode like this, balanced movement, balanced weapons, and only that. hence my reference to the most default settings of smash bros, "final destination all items off stock battle" its a simple test of skill versus your opponent, but to my understanding that's one of the least played versions of PvP shooting (and one of the most played of fighting games probably) the loadout options we have do break it up a little, but its still essentially like picking the same character as your opponent in a fighting game, or only allowing one weapon in a shooting game, I'm not saying its not fun, it can be, but i am saying no one is playing it and that's because they don't want to.

so why is it like this, and not like just straight up cocaine of an arcade shooter?

with what @ant99999 said with "Because the team working on it tried to make it as similar to the main game as possible." and with what i just said "the loadout options we have do break it up a little" I'm starting to think at this point maybe its an engine constraint, i don't want to think of ideas of how it could be better, no one cares, but i can say other games for the most part don't rely on a loadouts to be your only source of weaponry, that might bring some juice into it.

...

I could tell you a bit about how it came to be this way, but I don't really understand how you could call it the "most default possible settings for a mode like this" with the plethora of Warframes and weapons at our disposal. There's quite a bit more nuance to loadouts with how EHP and Mobility are balanced in the Conclave, and the damage types and mod options offer a lot of customisation (and some headaches) as well. But yes, the idea is to play Warframe first and foremost, and with loadouts that are somewhat balanced against each other.

As for watching footage about it, there certainly are some great moments there, too. Maybe you just haven't seen any of that so far? Especially high-level play can be really fast and brutal. If you want to see some good stuff, here are two examples. They're both montages, of course, so actual gameplay is not quite like this all the time:

Witchydragon's unofficial Conclave gameplay trailer from back in the day:

 

Loxyen's Bullets which features some great moments from various players:

 

Edited July 24, 2019 by Kontrollo
typo

[HugintheCrow]

13 hours ago, IzzyTH-I51 said:

Why is conclave the way it is, and not the way it isn't?

Because it's not the way it isn't, instead it is the way it is.

[IzzyTH-I51]

@Kontrollo those are actually some pretty cool montages, makes it look way more cool and fun. Makes me think conclave might also just be more fun if more people played more often in public. I mean, could join a conclave group but I won't do that for halo I for sure won't do it for conclave.

And... I was gonna say more about  conclave... But then I thought, maybe they've talked about it before on a devstream or something. So I searched for some further reading. And ya know, I feel like an ass now for even wondering. DE has done amazingly well, conclave is just a small part of something so grand, it's easy to cut it out and wonder why this one piece can't be more fun, but hell Warframe is the most cocaine game I've ever played, thousands of hours, more than any other game I've ever played. 

The reason conclave is like this and not unreal tournament is because Warframe is like this and not like halo. 

My question is clearly answered in the first 5 minutes of this, "why isn't conclave fun? Cause we're making Warframe you asshat." So... With that I'm gonna leave it at this, I sure do love that DE gave us conclave at all, as a mode I think it could have room to grow, but as an existing feature it's amazingly great.

 

[ObsidianMan]

1

Edited July 25, 2019 by ObsidianMan

[Kontrollo]

1 hour ago, IzzyTH-I51 said:

... Makes me think conclave might also just be more fun if more people played more often in public. I mean, could join a conclave group but I won't do that for halo I for sure won't do it for conclave. ...

It depends on what game settings you have (region, ping), so that might be a reason if you haven't found games. You don't really have to join a specific dedicated group to play it, there's the Conclave Discord at discord.me/conclave (direct invite link) where Conclave players hang out. There are schoolbus sessions, too.

And again, if you have other questions, feel free to ask here or through PMs.

[Loxyen]

Oh hey thats me. Uh if you're looking for some full match gameplay here a shameless self promotion:

Just a side node, I usually prefer 1.2 mobility loadouts. The need for speed is real ^^