.

[Duhktape]

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Edited December 12, 2022 by Duhktape

[(PSN)Ragology]

 Healers are needed in other mmos because incoming damage is beyond what can be done without a support role present. I like warframe because I don't feel like a mission is an  auto loss because no one brought a Trinity or Harrow.

 

If support were to be made more relevant, then the content would have to be that way too. I'd rather keep things the way they are now, knowing that content is doable no matter what the team composition.

[TaylorsContraction]

I liked raids too and would like to see missions added back that require actual teamwork. The problem is, if those missions offer some unique rewards we'll be right back to the raid situation. Small portion of players will do the mission cus tasty reward and fun mission while the rest are left out. DE will need to figure out a balance, possibly by having off missions that can be accomplished by other players in a separate mission altogether but share in the rewards (much like railjack).

 

Don't like raids, but you like fishing for some reason? Great here's a fishing mission for you that somehow aids playerse in the middle of a raid

[Oreades]

Posts someone elses youtube Video without as much as a blurb of their own and then said youtube video can't even correctly identify why Raids where actually removed. 

 

[TheMostFrench]

Warframe is not a class based game, the characters are individuals which can be built to excel in different ways. Sometimes they happen to be good at supporting others, but anyone can be like trinity with enough health and energy restores. You can also mod any frame for damage resistance and temporary invulnerability. It doesn't make trinity boring, because she can still use all the same weapons and has the same ability to move around as every other frame.

2:20 they talk about how each frame is designed to be a one man army. That's kind of the point because if you are starting the game alone you never know who you might end up playing with and where they are at in the game's progression. You are meant to get stronger and become more powerful as an individual with mods, arcanes, focus, etc.

It's a team game which can be played as an individual. The matchmaking system works because you can go into a group blind and not really have to worry about whether or not you have the right group composition or that they are all using 'suitable' builds. The exception is stuff like Eidolons or specific Sorties, but people recognise this need and try to create groups accordingly to get the best out of those fights.

[cookieknife]

12 hours ago, TaylorsContraction said:

I liked raids too and would like to see missions added back that require actual teamwork. The problem is, if those missions offer some unique rewards we'll be right back to the raid situation. Small portion of players will do the mission cus tasty reward and fun mission while the rest are left out. DE will need to figure out a balance, possibly by having off missions that can be accomplished by other players in a separate mission altogether but share in the rewards (much like railjack).

 

Don't like raids, but you like fishing for some reason? Great here's a fishing mission for you that somehow aids playerse in the middle of a raid

players were only ever left out because DE made jordas raid require the key, AND some device crafter u needed from the raid. and the LOR raid no one was left out.

[selig_fay]

Not only supports, but also tanks suffer from it. A tank is a person who has to distract enemy fire while trying to minimize it. But now they are just except for the defense of objects. In this game, only the ability to kill is important. If you can't live, you can't kill, by this DPS classes get support and tank ability. There is no team coordination in this game. There is one person who destroys the entire map, there is one person who helps (frost for objects or Necros for survival) and 2 people who just don't understand what to do. So Yes, it's a game about one man army. No matter which class you belong of the Trinity (I do not mean the frame, and the mean system Trinity (support / defense / damage) ). And when a DPS character has more armor than a tank, this is a reason to ask very logical questions. 

Now imagine a warframe that only concentrates on a tank and support, but has weak damage. Good luck with your imagination, I can say inaros is very close to that. But our weapons are very powerful, so we can not have problems with the damage, even if the frame does not provide it. 

Edited July 25, 2019 by zhellon

[Duhktape]

10 hours ago, zhellon said:

Not only supports, but also tanks suffer from it. A tank is a person who has to distract enemy fire while trying to minimize it. But now they are just except for the defense of objects. In this game, only the ability to kill is important. If you can't live, you can't kill, by this DPS classes get support and tank ability. There is no team coordination in this game. There is one person who destroys the entire map, there is one person who helps (frost for objects or Necros for survival) and 2 people who just don't understand what to do. So Yes, it's a game about one man army. No matter which class you belong of the Trinity (I do not mean the frame, and the mean system Trinity (support / defense / damage) ). And when a DPS character has more armor than a tank, this is a reason to ask very logical questions. 

Now imagine a warframe that only concentrates on a tank and support, but has weak damage. Good luck with your imagination, I can say inaros is very close to that. But our weapons are very powerful, so we can not have problems with the damage, even if the frame does not provide it. 

I think tanks could be revitalized if they could toggle threat levels. It would be great to use iron skin with Rhino and take all the incoming damage for my team, like an actual tank.

[Duhktape]

22 hours ago, Oreades said:

Posts someone elses youtube Video without as much as a blurb of their own and then said youtube video can't even correctly identify why Raids where actually removed. 

 

It's my video, the whole video is my "blurb" and I'm pretty sure raids were removed because they were frustrating to players. And I also saw some anti-raid people saying they were glad raids were removed for that exact same reason.

[Grizmoore]

EZ fix, rework trin to be more like harrow. both do pretty much the same thing, but harrow rewards a very aggressive and satisfying playstyle.

[selig_fay]

il y a 33 minutes, Duhktape a dit :

I think tanks could be revitalized if they could toggle threat levels. It would be great to use iron skin with Rhino and take all the incoming damage for my team, like an actual tank.

Well, Yes, that's what we have to do to keep allies at a low level of threat, thereby forcing enemies to ignore them. We must try to survive in this chaos, making life easier for allies. 

That's why I play Titania. I press 4, divert the attention of opponents and know that as long as I have razorfly my allies can only die on their own stupidity. She's not a tank, she's a support. And I really don't know what tanks abilities do in the kits, as Sarina, Khora, Wisp, while normal tanks capable of withstanding large amounts of damage as Inaros, Nidus, Hildryn do not have such powers. Although the Revenant has a similar ability, but the Revenant is "press 2 to stay alive". Very boring mechanics.

Although maybe Titania was conceived as a glass tank. That would surprise me greatly.

Edited July 25, 2019 by zhellon

[Oreades]

15 minutes ago, Duhktape said:

It's my video, the whole video is my "blurb" and I'm pretty sure raids were removed because they were frustrating to players. And I also saw some anti-raid people saying they were glad raids were removed for that exact same reason.

If it is your Video you might want to rename one of your accounts so it's obvious that you are you across the platforms, consistency etc. Also help if you did more than just videobomb a thread, an intro paragraph and a short generalized synopsis for people who don't have time to watch with the video offering some more in depth coverage. 

As far as the core reason that Raids where removed, while they might have been frustrating for players they where more frustrating for the people at DE who where trying to maintain them. Things where constantly breaking and needing to be re-re-fixed so raids didn't totally implode every other patch/hotfix. Strait up they where a continual source of nuisance for DE tho it certainly didn't help that they weren't all that popular with players at large. If memory serves DE has said on a few occasions that Raids where a problem child code wise. 

You can pretty much confirm that scenario by observing Conclaves continued existence. Also pretty terribly unpopular as far as the playerbase is concerned but it still exists mostly because it is sufficiently removed from the core game that it doesn't' break every other patch. So if raids hadn't been causing problems code wise It is logical to assume that DE would have taken the path of least resistance and simply done nothing rather than removing an entire game mode.

 

I'm sure some people where glad to see raids go for the perceived frustration they caused to the players but at best that was simply a supplementary issue to much more pervasive one. 

[Somi_xD]

vor 23 Stunden schrieb Oreades:

Posts someone elses youtube Video without as much as a blurb of their own and then said youtube video can't even correctly identify why Raids where actually removed. 

 

1. Why is it important if it is his work or not, as long it supports(ha ha) or represents his opinion it doesn't matter at all.
2. Why not asking if it is his video, if you care so much about it, instead of assuming it's another persons video.
3. Why not in the first place write the comment you did after he confirmed it was his video. (don't know if this is a Sentence)
Most useless Comment in this thread, after yours comes mine.

Edited July 25, 2019 by Somi_xD

[Oreades]

1 hour ago, Somi_xD said:

1. Why is it important if it is his work or not, as long it supports(ha ha) or represents his opinion it doesn't matter at all.
2. Why not asking if it is his video, if you care so much about it, instead of assuming it's another persons video.
3. Why not in the first place write the comment you did after he confirmed it was his video. (don't know if this is a Sentence)
Most useless Comment in this thread, after yours comes mine.

1. Generally speaking I suppose it's not because either way just posting a youtube video as the totality of your post is the paragon of laze. At least if it's their video they put some actual work into it but eleven times out of ten it's just some rando starting a topic and dropping some other rando youtubers opinion into it without any of their own input.
2. Pretty easy assumption given the fact that the Warframe account name and the name of the youtuber DO NOT match. Generally speaking "content creators" tend to keep their names consistent across platforms so you know who they are.
3. If I'm interpreting that correctly(?) see answer 2 and then answer 1. In that order

[Somi_xD]

vor einer Stunde schrieb Oreades:

1. Generally speaking I suppose it's not because either way just posting a youtube video as the totality of your post is the paragon of laze. At least if it's their video they put some actual work into it but eleven times out of ten it's just some rando starting a topic and dropping some other rando youtubers opinion into it without any of their own input.
2. Pretty easy assumption given the fact that the Warframe account name and the name of the youtuber DO NOT match. Generally speaking "content creators" tend to keep their names consistent across platforms so you know who they are.
3. If I'm interpreting that correctly(?) see answer 2 and then answer 1. In that order

1. That's no excuse, even if it is the masterpiece of laziness (where your first comment is the equivalent to your assumption).
 You just judged OP befor questioning him/his post, because of you are actually lazy yourself "name isn't the same" "ppl are all the same".
Also timestamped his name in 2 of his videos, took me like 4 minutes, since i already saw the first (skipped through it) and the second isn't even 2 minutes.

Spoiler

5:51 his name is (super)say'n by Razorback.

 

Spoiler

at 0:55 you can find his name.

2. Maybe he doesn't want to be recognized ingame, or the name was alread taken, or he changed his Youtube Name to fit him or his likes more.
Who knows, Nicoto/Duhktape knows it, ask him. 
(And yes, there are actually reasons for Content Creator to not be recognized in Online/Multiplayer games.)
But in the end nobody really cared and people acutally started a conversation about the video, except you.

3. See Answer 1, and then Answer 2, and then Answer 3 - in that order.

Edited July 26, 2019 by Somi_xD

[Xzorn]

Ah, Why I don't watch majority of Youtubers.

• Said this numerous times but there's a difference between a CC frame and a frame with CC. Video claims multiple frames can lock down a room because they have a CC ability built in. Good luck with that when a Nullifier shoots you in the face or the room gets filled with area denial because not all CC is created equal.
• NEW frames are designed as "one many armies" where as older frames were not and that's why they tend to excel in group comps while majority of newer frames are what I refer to as pub frames. They never make the list if you actually put premeditated though into your group comp.
• No one plays Endless missions also incorrect as per the I dunno 3,000+ user Endurance based Discord channel I admin. Yes, less people these days do them including myself but that's DE's fault not ours and doesn't change the fact most these "problems" magically get solved at those levels.
• Teammates stay in range of their support frames because otherwise they die and get laughed at. See above for how this works.
• Raids were a joke. Literally. People made meme videos with all the same frames as a group.

The video is simply describing the symptoms of a problem and not the problem itself. Increasing the level range is only part of a solution as we've already proven with our current gear and ability assortment lvl 9,999 can be achieved without cheese methods. In short. the game is already over and DE knows it. That's why they've resorted to Immunity.

[Xzorn]

14 minutes ago, moostar95 said:

what are the majority of new frames you are are talking about that don't quality? 

 

You mean pub frames? Wisp, Baruuk, Hildryn, Khora, Revenant, Nezha, Titania, Altas, Harrow, Inaros.

Other frames have lost their pre-made potential with reworks like Nyx, Mirage and some never had any like Wukong, Ash and Chroma

Since roughly 2015 I'd say the only key role frames made or reworked to make the cut are Nidus, Hydroid, Gara and Broketavia.

When you make a team; you're not going to be using these do-eveything frames. You'll be using the perfect role frames. Ones that have something both unique and potent to synergize with the rest of the team comp. There's some grey area ones like Garuda and Ivara but mostly the old frames are still the best group roles.

[Teridax68]

So that was perhaps one of the most steaming hot takes I've seen on Warframe. Just so that no-one else has to suffer through that video:

• OP thinks support frames suck in Warframe because they're not mandatory, even though that is one of the major advantages Warframe has over other multiplayer games.
• According to the OP, merely "average" play rates are apparently not enough when it comes to support frames.
• OP thinks every frame needs to be made unable to function on its own just so that support frames become necessary, and genuinely believes in nerfing every single frame and weapon in the game just to achieve this specific purpose.
• OP thinks dedicated CC frames are a good idea, despite Vauban and Nyx being clear evidence to the contrary.
• OP thinks Warframe letting players play most content solo is a bad thing.
• OP does not seem to understand why Trials were removed, believing that it was because they focused too much on cooperation, when the actual problem lied with the puzzles being obtuse and completely disconnected from the rest of the game (Warframe isn't a game about standing on pressure pads).

As someone who also tends to main supportive characters, and in particular who mains Trinity in Warframe, I feel the OP is far too focused on transposing the MMO/MOBA style of supporting onto Warframe, in complete ignorance of how freedom of choice and relative independence is what makes the game so great. I don't want to be mandatory to my team, even though I certainly want to feel useful (which inevitably happens when I pull a clutch heal and save an ally from death, which I'm surprised the OP didn't mention as a clear moment where the support has an impact): whenever I feel mandatory, it's when some random berates me in chat for not spamming EV or Blessing, and feeling like I need to go through the motions of supporting, instead of helping out my team more organically, is a dealbreaker for me. Putting aside how the very concept of a support frame is nebulous in Warframe, by the OP's own admission, I don't think any character or class should ever feel mandatory to the game: so long as utility is useful (and it is, despite the OP's claims to the contrary), that I think is good enough; no need for utility to be made essential.

If there is one criticism the OP made that I agree with, it's that multiplayer in Warframe often feels more like playing singleplayer with other players just doing their thing in the background: sometimes there really is no real opportunity for players to interact with each other, and that's not great. I don't think the solution there should be to make support frames mandatory, because ultimately that leads to the same problems as with every other multiplayer game in which supports are essential: you only have one player supporting the rest (or as many players as there are supports), whereas the rest of the team continues to play selfishly and not really work with their teammates. This is also why I don't think support frames as a class really make sense in Warframe, even though some frames can be more supportive than others. Rather, I believe every frame should have some means of synergizing with allies: if a frame can CC enemies, that's good enough. If a frame can shred armor or apply Viral procs, that's good enough. The ideal to me should be that any frame over the course of their normal actions should open up opportunities for other frames to interact: if it weren't for his stack hoarding, Nidus would be a perfect example of this, because his Larva is perfect for any frame to then obliterate crowds with a localized nuke from their abilities or weapons (though Nidus also has his 3 to support allies as well). Making frames support each other indicentally, rather than proactively (though some frames can do that too), would thus be the best way of enabling ally interaction in Warframe, in my opinion.

[selig_fay]

Il y a 2 heures, Teridax68 a dit :

If there is one criticism the OP made that I agree with, it's that multiplayer in Warframe often feels more like playing singleplayer with other players just doing their thing in the background: sometimes there really is no real opportunity for players to interact with each other, and that's not great. I don't think the solution there should be to make support frames mandatory, because ultimately that leads to the same problems as with every other multiplayer game in which supports are essential: you only have one player supporting the rest (or as many players as there are supports), whereas the rest of the team continues to play selfishly and not really work with their teammates. This is also why I don't think support frames as a class really make sense in Warframe, even though some frames can be more supportive than others. Rather, I believe every frame should have some means of synergizing with allies: if a frame can CC enemies, that's good enough. If a frame can shred armor or apply Viral procs, that's good enough. The ideal to me should be that any frame over the course of their normal actions should open up opportunities for other frames to interact: if it weren't for his stack hoarding, Nidus would be a perfect example of this, because his Larva is perfect for any frame to then obliterate crowds with a localized nuke from their abilities or weapons (though Nidus also has his 3 to support allies as well). Making frames support each other indicentally, rather than proactively (though some frames can do that too), would thus be the best way of enabling ally interaction in Warframe, in my opinion.

Now, Saryn and Volt is a must frames in the current meta, as everything happens much faster. You can play without them, but that doesn't change the fact. What will change if a mandatory condition for support is added? Nothing. You will also be able to play without them, but supports will make everything easier, because this is the mechanics of the game. Yes, now can come across a group that needs protection of the tank or that needs support. But if you come across saryn, you'll just wait for the end of mission. 

The must frames are already here. Frames capable of surpassing the efficiency of the whole group. Yes, I like the idea that each frame can have the ability to reinforce an ally, and I like the idea that among those frames there are real supports that can make it much stronger. But tell me, when was the last time you were going to the roar of Rhino on a normal mission? Does anyone even care about that? We have the possibility of interaction, but we do not need it. This is what the video says. Players want endgame and challenge, but they don't want to give up going all solo and they don't want the remove easy ways. This is a paradox that cannot be solved. In any case, you will get disgruntled players. Is the game fun now? Just answer this question. All these problems do not matter, because even now, if I want to play normally, I have to gather a group where there will not be OP frames that just ruin the gameplay.

Edited July 26, 2019 by zhellon

[Teridax68]

1 minute ago, zhellon said:

Now, Saryn and Volt is a must frames in the current meta, as everything happens much faster. You can play without them, but that doesn't change the fact. What will change if a mandatory condition for support is added? Nothing. You will also be able to play without them, but supports will make everything easier, because this is the mechanics of the game. Yes, now can come across a group that needs protection of the tank or that needs support. But if you come across saryn, you'll just wait for the end of mission.

Making some frames mandatory because other frames are already considered mandatory in some content (and I'm guessing you're referring to ESO specifically, as neither Saryn nor Volt are "must frames" anywhere else) is not a great argument, as to me that simply says that whichever frames that are grossly overperforming need to be toned down, or whichever missions that are so poorly-designed as to overly favor extremely specific frames need a rework (and I'd push for the latter, because ESO is not a particularly great game mode). If adding some mandatory condition for support were to change nothing, why even push for it in the first place?

1 minute ago, zhellon said:

The must frames are already here. Frames capable of surpassing the efficiency of the whole group. Yes, I like the idea that each frame can have the ability to reinforce an ally, and I like the idea that among those frames there are real supports that can make it much stronger. But tell me, when was the last time you were going to the roar of Rhino on a normal mission? Does anyone even care about that? 

Why would Rhino need to use Roar on a normal mission when Star Chart content is so weak? That is also a terrible argument, because literally nothing is essential or even remotely important for Star Chart content: you can bring literally any frame with any weapon setup to any mission, and do just fine, including solo. Trying to make frames mandatory at the Star Chart level is an incredibly bad idea, not least because the last thing you'd want is to impose more arbitrary progression gates upon newer players still making their way around.

1 minute ago, zhellon said:

We have the possibility of interaction, but we do not need it. This is what the video says. Players want endgame and challenge, but they don't want to give up going all solo and they don't want the remove easy ways. This is a paradox that cannot be solved.

I fail to see the contradiction here, as content can and should be scaled to be a challenge solo as well as when running as part of a team. If there is one problem with that now, it's that content in Warframe is at best static between solo and multiplayer, and at worst merely dysfunctional, e.g. when running solo Excavation missions and dealing with the incredibly low power cell carrier spawn rates. I also addressed the criticism mentioned in the video in my own comment: for sure, we currently lack interaction between each other, but mainly because many utility abilities require a conscious decision to specifically deploy utility (e.g. Roar), in an environment where most content is so easy that we have no real reason to do so. If we made that interaction more of a side-effect of our regular play, that would let players bounce off of each other a lot better, without compromising on our ability to play solo.

I think it is a critical flaw in the mentality of most multiplayer games to build interaction with supports around deficits, instead of making the relationship additive: adding more players to a mission should be a matter of adding more opportunities for interaction in response to a scaled challenge; it shouldn't be about crippling the player until they're forced to team up with someone else. One of the major reasons why I think Warframe succeeds as a video game is precisely because it's so easy to just jump into any mission, including endgame missions: there's no half-hour of looking for an extremely specific team composition, or players being forced to take on a role they don't like just because the meta demands it, or players blaming each other for not using critical abilities at crucial times (unless you're one of those goobers who blames the Trinity when you bring your 45% Efficiency, zero-durability build into a pub mission and inevitably get one-shotted). I agree utility should be important, but even in endgame content, it really should be just as important as any alternative tool on offer, including CC or radial damage. While I can agree that damage and durability are currently the two most desirable traits to have right now, to a degree that eclipses CC and utility, I don't think the solution to that should be to make utility mandatory as well.

[(XBOX)AMONGTHEWEAK]

I feel like support frames help if your a new player or a player who does not have any support gear like arcanes or life strike or energy pizzas, or gear that is capable of dispatching the enemy quickly before they do damage to you etc. 

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

Raids were removed due to constantly needing fixing every update, that's all. 

I think that there should be mechanics throughout factions to encourage having diverse archetypes, but not make it mandatory just to play. Frames need to be capable of self sufficiency, but at the same time they shouldn't be making other frames obsolete, especially as more and content only encourages high area damage. DE introduced enemies like Nox and Nullifiers to change the flow of combat for a reason...then they proceed to reward pure AoE DPS throughout all new content.

That can be improved with a few things without massive changes to the game as a whole.

Tank - Defensive moves like Iron Skin for "tank" frames should have increased threat for one, with a reasonable threat range. Then their exceptional durability isn't entirely self serving and gets more frequent use. 

Healers - There could also be certain enemies that deal damage with a long duration status that prevents healing, except from abilities or health orbs generated by abilities.

CC- There could be some enemies that resist all damage unless under the affect of CC. Nox is a great example to use for this, except it would be cc instead of breaking his helmet to turn him into a squishy little chew toy.

Everyone that isn't press-4-2-win - There could be some enemies that are heavily resistant to AoE damage from weapons and abilities that encourage single target damage from weapons or abilities. It's very common in online games to separate damage resistances between single target and AoE. Some are better at avoiding or reducing incoming area damage than others.

• With all of that said, I fully understand that the desire for pure dps speed runs of everything is based on the grind in this game. If DE implements the types of changes I suggest then they would have to make adjustments in that department as well. For example, if these adjustments were increase mission time by an average of 50% then drops rates should increase by 50% as well to keep the rewards for time spent somewhat similar. But I would much rather spend more time in a dynamic fight than do the same 3 minute nuke-fest mission 800 times.

[MirageKnight]

On 2019-07-25 at 6:54 AM, moostar95 said:

Supports are damn near useless to play nowdays due to the overwhelming amount of access players have to DPS Frames that allow players to almost effortless nuke entire rooms.

Fixed that for you.

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

13 minutes ago, moostar95 said:

Cool but when my operator can heal my frame in secs along with giving me energy. I don't seek the need for a wisp or trin to heal me. 

True.

I only use Zenurik on a couple frames that don't synergize as well with other schools but are energy hungry. But I exclusively use maxed Magus Replenish and Magus Nourish, because why wouldn't I want infinite health sustainability? Along with infinite energy if I'm using Zenurik too?

Giving Zenurik Energizing Dash was probably one of the single worst moves DE has made over these years. They put so much effort into balancing small things here and there, then they throw something like that out there. Scott nearly had an aneurysm on the devstream about Itzal's blink because it was the most used Archwing but they didn't bat an eye at Zenurik being the vast majority of Focus school usage?

[Xzorn]

58 minutes ago, moostar95 said:

Cool but when my operator can heal my frame in secs along with giving me energy. I don't seek the need for a wisp or trin to heal me. 

 

Trinity plays a key role in the DR stacking tactic.

Trin + Gara + Ancient Healer = Boom 1 billion eHP + Adaptation and two group slots left. One of the many ways to hit lvl 9,999 without cheese.

Of course in "typical" content that's not needed but one could argue that for just about any frame based on what the person plays. I for instance never do ESO so nuke frames have no extra value to me. Mesa has always had value to me because she's a strong frame regardless; not because she deletes the screen of fodder.

There was a Defense team I wanted to try for a while and just never bothered. Limbo + Banshee + non-Rad Disarm Loki + Mesa. Technically the group could just go all melee with a Speedva or something but the interaction is interesting. Shame the base game doesn't require even 10% of this thought.