.

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

There was a Defense team I wanted to try for a while and just never bothered. Limbo + Banshee + non-Rad Disarm Loki + Mesa. Technically the group could just go all melee with a Speedva or something but the interaction is interesting. Shame the base game doesn't require even 10% of this thought.

The Limbo for the Cata, the Mesa for DPS(?), the Loki to funnel all the enemies into the Cata, but the Banshee for??

I am curious now. Does Resonance affect Peacemaker?

Or is the Limbo going to Rift Torrent??

Edited July 26, 2019 by Guest

[Xzorn]

26 minutes ago, Datam4ss said:

The Limbo for the Cata, the Mesa for DPS(?), the Loki to funnel all the enemies into the Cata, but the Banshee for??

Biggest group wide damage boost for one frame slot.

She can safely melee inside Cata with Limbo and force prompted finishers for everyone with Silence if needed.

Edit: Least I think that Finisher interaction still works. Haven't checked. Even though enemies are locked they could be executed in the past. Savage Silence augment also used to cause Stealth multipliers. Now it only works if they're not facing you. Oh and yea. Peacemaker works with Resonance Sonar but it only hits the chest so you need the other group members to help get good Sonar coverage. I think Speedva would be an equally powerful option.

Edited July 26, 2019 by Xzorn

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Xzorn said:

Biggest group wide damage boost for one frame slot.

She can safely melee inside Cata with Limbo and force prompted finishers for everyone with Silence if needed.

Ah, I get it now.

[selig_fay]

Il y a 15 heures, Xzorn a dit :

Trin + Gara + Ancient Healer = Boom 1 billion eHP + Adaptation and two group slots left. One of the many ways to hit lvl 9,999 without cheese.

Or you can use Nidus, which not only has more than 1kkk, but also has invulnerability mechanics.

Il y a 15 heures, Xzorn a dit :

There was a Defense team I wanted to try for a while and just never bothered. Limbo + Banshee + non-Rad Disarm Loki + Mesa. Technically the group could just go all melee with a Speedva or something but the interaction is interesting. Shame the base game doesn't require even 10% of this thought.

Or you can use Saryn. You can take Loki with you, but if you know how Saryn works, you don't need him.

All your bundles are replaced by one frame. You understand that it is not very good right?

[Xzorn]

18 hours ago, moostar95 said:

I just feel that some newer frames feel gimmicky for my taste. 

I feel they are. They follow a theme instead of a purpose and DE uses "synergy" to either enforce that theme or prevent heavy build specialization which makes that frame only play like that frame with little variation. Wisp always plays like Wisp where as older frames have more variation.

 

4 hours ago, zhellon said:

Or you can use Nidus, which not only has more than 1kkk, but also has invulnerability mechanics.

Or you can use Saryn. You can take Loki with you, but if you know how Saryn works, you don't need him.

All your bundles are replaced by one frame. You understand that it is not very good right?

Nidus doesn't have enough offense and doesn't stack DR. He has group value but not well used in that comp. A solid group comp with Nidus starts with Day Equinox, Banshee and all 4 players using Growing Power. They all proc GP, while Equinox Provoke is up and Nidus Links Banshee pushing her Sonar to 40x. After that they just need protection and Nidus spams his Larva to help compensate Maim stagger from slowing kill rates.

The point of Loki in that Defense comp is to stay outside Cata, take down Nullifiers bubbles and Disarm enemies so they run right for the Cata group. Saryn can't feed Cata like that. Through it wasn't specified using Mesa past lvl 300 Armor would assume CPx4 where Saryn also loses a lot of her value. If they went with Speevda instead of Mesa then everyone would be melee and doesn't really need to care about Corrosive procs as much.

[selig_fay]

il y a une heure, Xzorn a dit :

Nidus doesn't have enough offense and doesn't stack DR. He has group value but not well used in that comp. A solid group comp with Nidus starts with Day Equinox, Banshee and all 4 players using Growing Power. They all proc GP, while Equinox Provoke is up and Nidus Links Banshee pushing her Sonar to 40x. After that they just need protection and Nidus spams his Larva to help compensate Maim stagger from slowing kill rates.

The point of Loki in that Defense comp is to stay outside Cata, take down Nullifiers bubbles and Disarm enemies so they run right for the Cata group. Saryn can't feed Cata like that. Through it wasn't specified using Mesa past lvl 300 Armor would assume CPx4 where Saryn also loses a lot of her value. If they went with Speevda instead of Mesa then everyone would be melee and doesn't really need to care about Corrosive procs as much.

You try to combine frames at level 1K, but nobody plays at level 1K. Those times are long gone. Your synergy makes no sense. Improved protection is simply not necessary, because you are already able to tank face up to 200 levels. The improvement in damage is not necessary, because all 200 levels dying all around you by itself. All content never comes out after 200 levels. I don't know if you've noticed, but you can already stand up to level 9999 in solo using good gear and frame. And it's not even a challenge, because anyone who has the time can do it. I may say a silly thing, but your synergy doesn't work in this game because the game itself just isn't there.

The only place where synergy works is boss fight.
 

Edited July 27, 2019 by zhellon

[Xzorn]

11 minutes ago, zhellon said:

You try to combine frames at level 1K, but nobody plays at level 1K. Those times are long gone. Your synergy makes no sense. Improved protection is simply not necessary, because you are already able to tank face up to 200 levels. The improvement in damage is not necessary, because all 200 levels dying all around you by itself. All content never comes out after 200 levels. I don't know if you've noticed, but you can already stand up to level 9999 in solo using good gear and frame. And it's not even a challenge, because anyone who has the time can do it. I may say a silly thing, but your synergy doesn't work in this game because the game itself just isn't there.

The only place where synergy works is boss fight.

 

No. What doesn't make sense is submission to an obviously flawed design that doesn't promote good team work and synergy like I described.

I've heard these excuses for years and yet there's still players who do it and DE still produces Leaderboards for Events to support it.

Want to see your name immortalized? Don't do anything you just said.

[selig_fay]

il y a 1 minute, Xzorn a dit :

Want to see your name immortalized? Don't do anything you just said.

What am I not supposed to do? Shouldn't use the unique frame mechanics that was introduced into the game by the developers? Should not use unique things that are introduced by developers? 

Good. What's the alternative? Synergy of characters, the purpose of which is to collect 4 people who will be in the floor AFK mode spam abilities? You call this gameplay? Maybe I don't understand something. But I can say one thing. In a group of four, you cannot die because you can be resurrected. You can't lose at all. And here everything depends on the ability of frames, only they can become ineffective. But if you take Banshee, frost, Trinity and others, you'll just spam one ability because the others aren't effective. Because your weapons are not effective if there is no Banshee and the like. Mobs for you as were pears for beating, so and remained and not matter their level of, 500 or 9999. Will vary only in how often the Banshee will spam. 
 

[Xzorn]

9 minutes ago, zhellon said:

What am I not supposed to do? Shouldn't use the unique frame mechanics that was introduced into the game by the developers? Should not use unique things that are introduced by developers? 

Good. What's the alternative? Synergy of characters, the purpose of which is to collect 4 people who will be in the floor AFK mode spam abilities? You call this gameplay? Maybe I don't understand something. But I can say one thing. In a group of four, you cannot die because you can be resurrected. You can't lose at all. And here everything depends on the ability of frames, only they can become ineffective. But if you take Banshee, frost, Trinity and others, you'll just spam one ability because the others aren't effective. Because your weapons are not effective if there is no Banshee and the like. Mobs for you as were pears for beating, so and remained and not matter their level of, 500 or 9999. Will vary only in how often the Banshee will spam.

 

You're just showing me your experience with endurance runs at this point.

Every frame has a purpose and role in a long run and if they do not uphold that role the chances of everyone dying is very high. No one is AFK and Banshee is hardly the only damage solution. I've even produced math showing Ember can replace her. Yea that frame everyone says is trash is just under Banshee. Most frames use all 4 abilities during a long run. What they don't do is press 1 button and delete the map.

If you're playing Saryn in a long run with me then you better have Venom Dose on or I'm gunna poke fun. Why I made a post a while back about them changing it's damage type from Toxic to Corrosive making the augment worthless outside Armored enemies so if we're not fighting Armor, skip Saryn all together. Same thing with Volt and his Shock Trooper Augment. You should be using it in a proper group setup yet... No one does because they fight foo foo level enemies.

Trinity + Frost? That's redundant. Get an Energize set. Showing colors again with this statement.

Weapons scale better than ability damage outside Octavia so you end up shooting in a 3rd person shooter. Almost like the game works properly.

 

[selig_fay]

il y a 6 minutes, Xzorn a dit :

Trinity + Frost

Trinity generally unnecessary, there is a pill for energy. You may think I'm a beginner, but I've been playing since the key era when standing 3-6 hours was normal. I perfectly understand that and as works. It's pointless now. Now you can only play for fun. Your standing for 24 hours is of no interest to anyone. it's boring. You just stand there and do the same thing. This is not a problem of the synergy system itself. This is a problem of levels and mobs design. They're too soft and you don't need tanks and supports because you can't die. And of course, this is the problem of OP frames, which can kill everything with their mechanics without making any effort.

Again, I'm not saying it's all nerf. I'm saying that DE should be concerned about mission design. Now all the missions boiler down to go from A to B or killing as many mobs. I think the new bosses are pretty amazing and I think they should continue this concept. Letting it just be mini bosses like wolves, only with more complex mechanics, which is difficult to do alone and in a team of randomes. This will make the passage to a slower, but more dependent on the players, not the keystrokes specific frames. Everyone gets their share of the fun. Of course, except for those who come into the game just for AFK mode.

[Xzorn]

8 minutes ago, zhellon said:

Trinity generally unnecessary, there is a pill for energy. You may think I'm a beginner, but I've been playing since the key era when standing 3-6 hours was normal. I perfectly understand that and as works. It's pointless now. Now you can only play for fun. Your standing for 24 hours is of no interest to anyone. it's boring. You just stand there and do the same thing. This is not a problem of the synergy system itself. This is a problem of levels and mobs design. They're too soft and you don't need tanks and supports because you can't die. And of course, this is the problem of OP frames, which can kill everything with their mechanics without making any effort.

Again, I'm not saying it's all nerf. I'm saying that DE should be concerned about mission design. Now all the missions boiler down to go from A to B or killing as many mobs. I think the new bosses are pretty amazing and I think they should continue this concept. Letting it just be mini bosses like wolves, only with more complex mechanics, which is difficult to do alone and in a team of randomes. This will make the passage to a slower, but more dependent on the players, not the keystrokes specific frames. Everyone gets their share of the fun. Of course, except for those who come into the game just for AFK mode.

 

I agree. Warframe in general has become one big speed run.

We need Damage 3.0. A new rule system, Scaling, Armor, weak points, enemy damage, the works. Maybe then DE won't have to cheat with Immune.

I don't want to sit in a mission for 3+ hours every time I want to test a build Solo. Let along in a group. It's just a byproduct of trying to engage myself.

[DrBorris]

All I ask is that on a written Forum is that I can read the OP. I am not always in the environment where I can watch and/or listen to a video, and being able to read something makes it easier to let points sink in (for me). Posting a video without any text makes it hard to have a discussion, quoting portions of topics and replying to them individually also makes it considerably easier for a bystander to quickly come in and get a grasp for the discussion occurring.

And no, I am not going to go through the effort to transcribe part of your video to respond to it. If you are too lazy to write down your points, post your script, or even just give a bulleted TL;DR than I'm not going to go through the effort to do that stuff for you.

 

That said, I will give my brief thoughts on supports based on the title alone (because that is all you cared to write...)

The state of supports being kind of... eh... as a class is due to the way the metagame is balanced. Because of the exponential scaling of enemies and the linear, capped scaling of Warframe EHP, it leads to a very difficult to balance "feel" for the game. The levels where the tankyness of a Warframe on its base stats along "feels" good is only maybe a ten level range, probably between 30-40. Outside of that tiny range, the tankyness of any Warframe is irrelevant. Either they are a god, or one-shot. This means that Warframe have had to be balanced with this in mind, DE does not want a support to be necessary in all 40+ content, so they have had to give very Warframe abilities to completely nullify taking meaningful damage (be it CC, absurd DPS, or huge DR). DE wants every Warframe to be able to solo all daily content (well, all content atm, outside of the rare timed event, rip Raids).

There is also the problem (yes, I am claiming it to be a problem) of "Death is the best form of CC". As long as DPS frames such as Mesa, Equinox, and Saryn are able to do their jobs alone, neither CC or support will be "viable" meta strategies. The only reason tanking has its place in the meta is due to making certain enemies immune to DPS in some form, forcing you to take some hits (Arbitrations). This has just ended up hurting CC frames just as bad.

If you ask me, the problem with Supports isn't a problem with supports, it is that the DPS role can work to its fullest potential without any kind of support. The only enemies that mess up a DPS's day is also an enemy that messes up every other Warframe's day.

 

My suggestion: Add "problem enemies" for DPS frames. The Nox is a good example, as all of the mass AoE DPS do have a slight problem with them. However, due to their extremely limited spawn rate, they aren't actually a problem. Imagine if enemies like Nox spawned at the rate of heavy Gunners/Bombards. Suddenly the DPS role would be in jeopardy. Sure, they would still be cleaning up basic fodder enemies, but they would be at risk of being overrun by these heavier units. This is where CC and Supports would come in to prop up the DPS.

"But designing a bunch of new enemies would be hard." Yes, designing a bunch of enemies is hard, if only DE already had a full roster of enemies that were designed to take on Warframes in a one-on-one environment, many of which having unique mechanics... (Arena enemies from the Index/Rathuum)

[selig_fay]

il y a 38 minutes, DrBorris a dit :

There is also the problem (yes, I am claiming it to be a problem) of "Death is the best form of CC". As long as DPS frames such as Mesa, Equinox, and Saryn are able to do their jobs alone, neither CC or support will be "viable" meta strategies. The only reason tanking has its place in the meta is due to making certain enemies immune to DPS in some form, forcing you to take some hits (Arbitrations). This has just ended up hurting CC frames just as bad.

I think Mesa is balanced. Her control isn't very good. Her protection has many gaps. And her has mobility problems. Yes, she is able to kill crowds of mobs, but other than that she is nothing special and needs help. She's a perfect representation of how nuke DPS should be designed because she doesn't take the work away from others and does what she has to do. 

[Ikyr0]

Offensive support frames are great because they increase killing efficiency, as long as they can kill well on their own. Wisp's haste is godly on others. she's also one of the highest dps frames in the game due to stealth multipliers, haste, and Surge. She's a total powerhouse.

Defensive support frames have no purpose outside of healing Eidolon lures, because current content isn't in any way challenging. Oberon was my main for hundreds of hours, and unfortunately I just don't find him very efficient compared to the rest of my roster.

Edited July 28, 2019 by Ikyr0

[(PSN)FK2P]

Octavia >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>x1000>>>>>>>>> trinity. 

we don’t need your energy, your damage reduction has 15 base armour and lasts 20 seconds, and causes you to not build for your niche if you use duration.... sucks to be trinity.

[Duhktape]

On 2019-07-26 at 7:13 AM, (PS4)Ozymandias-13- said:

Raids were removed due to constantly needing fixing every update, that's all. 

I think that there should be mechanics throughout factions to encourage having diverse archetypes, but not make it mandatory just to play. Frames need to be capable of self sufficiency, but at the same time they shouldn't be making other frames obsolete, especially as more and content only encourages high area damage. DE introduced enemies like Nox and Nullifiers to change the flow of combat for a reason...then they proceed to reward pure AoE DPS throughout all new content.

That can be improved with a few things without massive changes to the game as a whole.

Tank - Defensive moves like Iron Skin for "tank" frames should have increased threat for one, with a reasonable threat range. Then their exceptional durability isn't entirely self serving and gets more frequent use. 

Healers - There could also be certain enemies that deal damage with a long duration status that prevents healing, except from abilities or health orbs generated by abilities.

CC- There could be some enemies that resist all damage unless under the affect of CC. Nox is a great example to use for this, except it would be cc instead of breaking his helmet to turn him into a squishy little chew toy.

Everyone that isn't press-4-2-win - There could be some enemies that are heavily resistant to AoE damage from weapons and abilities that encourage single target damage from weapons or abilities. It's very common in online games to separate damage resistances between single target and AoE. Some are better at avoiding or reducing incoming area damage than others.

• With all of that said, I fully understand that the desire for pure dps speed runs of everything is based on the grind in this game. If DE implements the types of changes I suggest then they would have to make adjustments in that department as well. For example, if these adjustments were increase mission time by an average of 50% then drops rates should increase by 50% as well to keep the rewards for time spent somewhat similar. But I would much rather spend more time in a dynamic fight than do the same 3 minute nuke-fest mission 800 times.

yea, if 4 people are going to go through the trouble of coordinating, there better be some good loot. The ability to just do an endless mission for longer isn't worth teamplay either since A: loot drops in a cycle so you can just leave and do the mission again after wave/round/level 4. And B: time is still a valuable resource to most people. I for one, would be willing to do a very difficult mission for 5 minutes with a team and getting loot from tables A,A,B,C instead of doing a 20 minute mission that's easier for the same stuff.

Edited August 9, 2019 by Duhktape

[Duhktape]

On 2019-07-27 at 10:26 PM, (PS4)FK2P said:

Octavia >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>x1000>>>>>>>>> trinity. 

we don’t need your energy, your damage reduction has 15 base armour and lasts 20 seconds, and causes you to not build for your niche if you use duration.... sucks to be trinity.

Well technically Octavia gives energy regen as part of her passive (because that totally connects with music for some reason). Also the damage reduction reduces damage to a tenth. It is true that EV and Blessing do contradict each other in duration. But Octavia really does outshine Trinity ;-;

[(XBOX)Demon Intellect]

On 2019-07-24 at 8:34 PM, Oreades said:

Posts someone elses youtube Video without as much as a blurb of their own and then said youtube video can't even correctly identify why Raids where actually removed. 

 

I thought raids were removed because DE couldnt fix them. Theyd fix 1 issue and that fix would cause 10 new issues.

[-VS-Zany]

Okay. First.
You can scale up the UI. Read the options. Done.
When you mentioned that point you lost every credibility.

Also:

Trinity is useless you said?
4x Trinity best tank team in the game change my mind.
 

[selig_fay]

30 минут назад, -VS-Zany сказал:

4x Trinity best tank team in the game change my mind.

We have 300k EHP Trinity. We have a Trinity and get 300*4=1200к. Add one, 1200*4 = 4800. Add another 4800*4 = 9600k = 9.6 KK. Add ancient healer - 96кк. Okay, now take nezha +augment and three nuke frames, and demonstrate trinity party , which means effective teamwork.

[-VS-Zany]

vor 13 Minuten schrieb zhellon:

We have 300k EHP Trinity. We have a Trinity and get 300*4=1200к. Add one, 1200*4 = 4800. Add another 4800*4 = 9600k = 9.6 KK. Add ancient healer - 96кк. Okay, now take nezha +augment and three nuke frames, and demonstrate trinity party , which means effective teamwork.

ye? 96kk is wrong btw. The EHP is 40.000.000.
Can your team mindlessly facetank enemys around 2k? I guess not.
As i said: Best tank team. Kill effiency comes with other stuff


 

Edited August 9, 2019 by -VS-Zany

[selig_fay]

5 минут назад, -VS-Zany сказал:

ye? 96kk is wrong btw. The EHP is 40.000.000.

Can your team mindlessly facetank enemys around 2k? I guess not.
As i said: Best tank team. Kill effiency comes with other stuff

Frost's dome can facetank. xDI still have 2 nick frame in stock.

Edited August 9, 2019 by zhellon

[-VS-Zany]

vor 1 Minute schrieb zhellon:

Frost's dome can facetank. xD

Yes and no.
When you need to defend an objective, frost is way better but you are ignoring the original case.
Frost needs to recast the globe at 1 point every 3,9 sec.

And as i said. Nezha is nothing against it. Also in my eyes Nezha is overrated as Inaros is. 😄

[selig_fay]

2 минуты назад, -VS-Zany сказал:

Yes and no.

When you need to defend an objective, frost is way better but you are ignoring the original case.
Frost needs to recast the globe at 1 point every 3,9 sec.

And as i said. Nezha is nothing against it. Also in my eyes Nezha is overrated as Inaros is. 😄

Nezha has healthgate (DefencePointGate). Although Yes, revenant better

Edited August 9, 2019 by zhellon

[Neuerwinter]

On 2019-07-26 at 6:51 AM, Xzorn said:

The game is already over and DE knows it. That's why they've resorted to Immunity.

Based and redpilled, no sarcasm.

It’s the one big evidence right there that all people, who talk about how balanced their OP zim-zam nuke frame are, tend to ignore