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Duhktape

A Video Essay on why Support Frames are Kinda Lame.

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Posted (edited)
12 минут назад, -VS-Zany сказал:

Adaptation is giving us 90% Dmg resistance, but Toxin and Puncture has a positiv bonus. So: Toxin is cannot have 90% Reduction but 67,5 and Puncture has 45. Is that what you are talking about?

To be honest, I didn't understand what you wrote.

I'm talking about adaptation not being able to have 90% resistance against the toxin because the flesh is 50% vulnerable, from the tests I know 150% is total resistance to the toxin. Respectively 150=100, means, and it is equivalent 90=60. Plus, enemies don't always hit with just one type of damage.(1 opponent can hit 3 types of damage, but adaptation will count only priority) Plus, you can't always maintain 90% resistance. Adaptation is better not to take into account in the calculations, as it is not constant.

Edited by zhellon

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Posted (edited)
vor 11 Minuten schrieb zhellon:

To be honest, I didn't understand what you wrote.

I'm talking about adaptation not being able to have 90% resistance against the toxin because the flesh is 50% vulnerable, from the tests I know 150% is total resistance to the toxin. Respectively 150=100, means, and it is equivalent 90=60. Plus, enemies don't always hit with just one type of damage. Plus, you can't always maintain 90% resistance. Adaptation is better not to take into account in the calculations, as it is not constant.

Okay okay so we both mean the same but we talk "around each other". Maybe cause english is not my native english, and i lack the correct way to explain it. Sorry about that.
Yes, Adaptation has a couple Types of dmg where you cannot reach 90%. Slash, Puncture, Toxin, Corrosive and Viral. But due to the DR stacking this negativ point can be ignored. Also only Slash (+5% due to armor bonus) and Puncture (+50%) is the only important one. Viral is not dealt by enemys as well as corrosive, and Toxin can be "ignored" with some tools. But yes, in regard of that dmg types you are right. The EHP of Trinity would be diffrent when you get hit by those dmg types. Oh and yes you can maintain 90%. You just need to know what you are doing tbh.



To explain what I said:

Puncture, as an example, has a positiv 50% bonus against Warframes - We have Ferrit Armor. So it ignores 50% of our armor, gets 50% stronger AND ignores 50% of the Adaptations Stack Bonus (45%).
Example: take a Corpus Tech at lvl 16, Inaros, no mods. You will recieve 15 Dmg per Bullet. With Adaptation at 90% you recieve 6dmg or 7dmg (depends on the engine how it will round. RNG based. big oof) cause the 90% Adaptation is actually only 45%.

Edited by -VS-Zany

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Puncture damage is the main consideration when applying Adaptation. Nox can be annoying with their Toxic damage but otherwise Nullifiers, Techs, Corrupted Crewman. Those are the things you watch out for. Still though Adaptation technically never gives 90% DR unless the enemy does a pure elemental type like Napalms or Sapping Osprey. They always have a little bit of something else in there and the way faction damage is distributed you usually won't get a full IPS spread on Adaption.

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On 2019-08-09 at 9:42 AM, -VS-Zany said:

Okay. First.
You can scale up the UI. Read the options. Done.
When you mentioned that point you lost every credibility.

Also:

Trinity is useless you said?
4x Trinity best tank team in the game change my mind.
 

Hey m8, I replied to the YouTube version of your comment.

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Posted (edited)
On 2019-08-09 at 8:39 PM, Xzorn said:

Puncture damage is the main consideration when applying Adaptation. Nox can be annoying with their Toxic damage but otherwise Nullifiers, Techs, Corrupted Crewman. Those are the things you watch out for. Still though Adaptation technically never gives 90% DR unless the enemy does a pure elemental type like Napalms or Sapping Osprey. They always have a little bit of something else in there and the way faction damage is distributed you usually won't get a full IPS spread on Adaption.

fair enough.

Edited by Duhktape

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Posted (edited)

it's almost like what you're saying is the same thing all vets have been saying since forever... warframe needs challenge appropriate to the power level of the game to make squads matter.

now me, i always squad... why?  it's not for the team mates... it's because their presence means more loot pinatas and since i can clear a tile as fast as can bullet jump through it that just means more resources for my dojo.  but notice how the rest of the squad'S contribution is completely irrellavent to my being able to succeed.

indeed, on occasion i've had people get pissy in chat and say to me at various points:  "if you're so good, we're just going to stand here and fail the mission"... and then i clear the whole thing, for all four players, without their help, and pick them off the floor when they get shot because i can, because i literally don't need them and even their active hindrance by being a distraction to pick off the floor rather than clear enemies makes no difference to my success.

at best, someone that is equally as powered as me, can maybe save me three seconds on a sabo mission by pulling the other canister while i grab the other one, or hack the other stealth computer... they haven't made any difference in my guaranteed success, they have only shaved off .5 seconds off the mission complete time and that's only if we aren't waiting for a full minute on extract for babyexcal69 mr 6 who is still lost at the beginning of the mission.

the thing is, i'm not saying this to measure my  e-peen because literally anyone can do this in the game and it takes minimal skill and effort, just time investment.  i'm saying it to agree with how much of a problem the game design is...

again...

which will be ignored by de...

again...

Edited by Klokwerkaos

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A couple of things:

Some frames/builds are more self sufficient than others, but they still do benefit from a support frame

Yes, we can point to several frames and builds where our frame can tank, deal damage, CC, heal, and manage energy. Each of these builds can play a little differently from each other (ex: Chroma vs Saryn).

Even so, those frames do still benefit from support provided by the likes of other frames; Trinity being a great example. As some have shown in previous posts, while a frame is tanky, the math for that tankiness shows how much better it is with Trinity's damage mitigation. In addition, while players can manage their energy, it is excellent to have a Trinity providing more energy than you know what to do with. There's a bonus where if you plan ahead of time, such as we see even with ESO groups, it allows the Saryn, Volt, etc. to change their build to have less efficiency than they could otherwise handle as now they have Trinity enabling it.

Not all frames are as self-sufficient as others

Then you have other frames that aren't as completely self-sufficient. Nyx is a great example. A Nyx in her 4 has a harder time managing energy as her movement is impaired (or disabled if not using the augment) and she can't use Zenurik due to the constant energy drain. This greatly benefits from EV.

Being self-sufficient isn't a bad thing; there are problems with not being self-sufficient

One complaint players often have in other games they play is that it's aggravating trying to find a full group; especially one with a good composition. You can see the composition one over in Blizzard's Overwatch as they recently implemented new measures to try to aid with this. MMORPGs and other game genres have dealt with this issue for decades now.

There is something nice to allowing players to do most content without needing to wait for X other players; specifically X other players playing Y specific roles.

Whilst this is true, there are still bonuses to having other players such as when you get downed being able to be picked up, or the synergies you see even between the largely self-sufficient frames. There are also the bonuses others have mentioned such as it increasing the number of targets in the missions. Additionally, some of us don't mind running with random players as we occasionally take notice of one and it results in a new friend.

Some support frames are needed for doing the long end-game runs

Trinity is the best example of this, so I'll focus on her. While many think of Trinity purely in the terms of support, there are those that realize that since her ability scales off a % of the target's health, it scales infinitely with enemy levels. As such, Trinity is quite useful for the multi-hour runs that a small percentage of players take part in to challenge themselves. In fact, at those extremely high levels, she is one of the best damage dealers in the group if not the best.

Variety

The previous point brings us to a nice important point in Warframe ... we are given a good bit of variety. Not all frames are created equal, but in each tier we have multiple frames that are viable and they do each play differently. They even become more/less viable depending on the mission and the types of enemies in the mission. Then you throw in the various weapons, mods, etc. and we have a great deal of variety.

In addition to this, we have a variety of ways to tackle things. We can be self-sufficient and tear through the content or we can form a group with some great synergize and truly rip through the content. These are both good options. There are benefits to taking the time to form a group whilst you are not punished for not doing so. There's a carrot, but no stick. When talking about games, that's generally what you want.

If you start to muck with things in a way that makes some frames "more necessary", you may muck with the variety in a negative way. I'm not saying this means it shouldn't be done, but I would express extreme caution. Often times we put on our blinders because we want X and then it results in us getting side-swiped by Y and Z.

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Posted (edited)
On 2019-08-12 at 11:53 AM, Sebrent said:

A couple of things:

Some frames/builds are more self sufficient than others, but they still do benefit from a support frame

Yes, we can point to several frames and builds where our frame can tank, deal damage, CC, heal, and manage energy. Each of these builds can play a little differently from each other (ex: Chroma vs Saryn).

Even so, those frames do still benefit from support provided by the likes of other frames; Trinity being a great example. As some have shown in previous posts, while a frame is tanky, the math for that tankiness shows how much better it is with Trinity's damage mitigation. In addition, while players can manage their energy, it is excellent to have a Trinity providing more energy than you know what to do with. There's a bonus where if you plan ahead of time, such as we see even with ESO groups, it allows the Saryn, Volt, etc. to change their build to have less efficiency than they could otherwise handle as now they have Trinity enabling it.

Not all frames are as self-sufficient as others

Then you have other frames that aren't as completely self-sufficient. Nyx is a great example. A Nyx in her 4 has a harder time managing energy as her movement is impaired (or disabled if not using the augment) and she can't use Zenurik due to the constant energy drain. This greatly benefits from EV.

Being self-sufficient isn't a bad thing; there are problems with not being self-sufficient

One complaint players often have in other games they play is that it's aggravating trying to find a full group; especially one with a good composition. You can see the composition one over in Blizzard's Overwatch as they recently implemented new measures to try to aid with this. MMORPGs and other game genres have dealt with this issue for decades now.

There is something nice to allowing players to do most content without needing to wait for X other players; specifically X other players playing Y specific roles.

Whilst this is true, there are still bonuses to having other players such as when you get downed being able to be picked up, or the synergies you see even between the largely self-sufficient frames. There are also the bonuses others have mentioned such as it increasing the number of targets in the missions. Additionally, some of us don't mind running with random players as we occasionally take notice of one and it results in a new friend.

Some support frames are needed for doing the long end-game runs

Trinity is the best example of this, so I'll focus on her. While many think of Trinity purely in the terms of support, there are those that realize that since her ability scales off a % of the target's health, it scales infinitely with enemy levels. As such, Trinity is quite useful for the multi-hour runs that a small percentage of players take part in to challenge themselves. In fact, at those extremely high levels, she is one of the best damage dealers in the group if not the best.

Variety

The previous point brings us to a nice important point in Warframe ... we are given a good bit of variety. Not all frames are created equal, but in each tier we have multiple frames that are viable and they do each play differently. They even become more/less viable depending on the mission and the types of enemies in the mission. Then you throw in the various weapons, mods, etc. and we have a great deal of variety.

In addition to this, we have a variety of ways to tackle things. We can be self-sufficient and tear through the content or we can form a group with some great synergize and truly rip through the content. These are both good options. There are benefits to taking the time to form a group whilst you are not punished for not doing so. There's a carrot, but no stick. When talking about games, that's generally what you want.

If you start to muck with things in a way that makes some frames "more necessary", you may muck with the variety in a negative way. I'm not saying this means it shouldn't be done, but I would express extreme caution. Often times we put on our blinders because we want X and then it results in us getting side-swiped by Y and Z.

There still isn't enough challenging content to justify a support frame. Sure, it will make easy levels easier, but that feels so redundant.

Also, you just made me realize, if I didn't have to make a video complaining about how there's no team work, I would be making a video complaining about how people suck at teamwork XD. This is the best counterclaim I've read so far. Lord knows I hate it when I play Paladins and the last guy in competitive picks a random DPS instead of the support we needed.

Edited by Duhktape

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17 hours ago, Duhktape said:

Lord knows I hate it when I play Paladins and the last guy in competitive picks a random DPS instead of the support we needed.

This is precisely the kind of problem you'd be injecting into Warframe if you were to start making supports mandatory. Currently, it doesn't really matter which frame one picks for a mission, and that's good, because the vast majority of missions are random pubs, and it'd be disastrous if one needed a specific team comp each time. Even in premade missions for stuff like Relic runs, frame choice doesn't matter, which ultimately means everyone gets to pick whoever they want. The moment you start to make a particular kind of frame necessary, that's when players will start feeling the pressure to play something they don't want to, which generates frustration either way, i.e. when someone feels forced to play a type of frame they're not in the mood for, or as you pointed out when someone decides to ignore comp requirements and thus jeopardizes everyone else's chances of success. This is ultimately why I'd rather make teamwork in Warframe something that just happens from players doing their thing, instead of going for the more authoritarian route of MOBAs and MMOs, because it's Warframe's freedom of choice that has saved it from the latter games' problems, and is overall one of its biggest assets.

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19 hours ago, Duhktape said:

There still isn't enough challenging content to justify a support frame. Sure, it will make easy levels easier, but that feels so redundant.

That is a bit of a matter of opinion which is also based on the content you do. If you do long endurance runs, then you will find that 90% damage reduction isn't sufficient; you need 90%^2 damage reduction or eventually to not take any damage at all as eventually enemy scaling surpasses even that.

There is also support that is not damage reduction or healing. Armor Stripping, Ability Buffing, Shielding against Damage (looking at all the sexy volts), CC, etc. are all quite helpful in the correct scenarios. Heck, you can even provide support by quickly popping Nullifier bubbles; many frames greatly appreciate this.

Ultimately, support isn't just the healing, etc. that is largely focused on in the video. Support is supporting the current people at hand w/ the task at hand.

Btw, the video is incorrect in that you can't see the health of the lures. It's quite visible.

19 hours ago, Duhktape said:

Also, you just made me realize, if I didn't have to make a video complaining about how there's no team work, I would be making a video complaining about how people suck at teamwork XD. This is the best counterclaim I've read so far. Lord knows I hate it when I play Paladins and the last guy in competitive picks a random DPS instead of the support we needed.

I'm glad you liked this point.

You are correct that there are many people that are bad at teamwork. I don't know your age, but, assuming you're younger, as you get older you'll find that this is true everywhere; not just in games. In the workplace there are plenty of people that don't work well with others, communicate effectively, know how to coordinate, etc.. Effective teamwork and those capable of it are gems everywhere.

As to the counterclaim, I gave, we get a small taste of it when it comes to eidolon groups.

I run Trinity for eidolons as regardless of how good/bad the group is, I'm not letting those lures die to Harry and force me to go grab and charge more. I also, truth-be-told, have a few friends I've run into in PUGs that were excellent Chroma/Volts; helps quite a bit ... pays to make connections.

However, it is frustrating to jump into a group with bad (or no) Volt/Chroma for dealing damage and being Trinity with OK damage thus only getting in 2 tridolons that cetus night when you could get 3+ in less time.

We do also get a bit of a taste of this with various missions such as Defense missions at higher levels where you more often than not want a Frost, Limbo, Gara, etc. for defending the point. However, if your group takes more than one of these frames, especially 3+, it can be a bit aggravating as you suddenly wish you were clearing the map more with more DPS since 1 good Frost/Limbo/Gara is sufficient. NOTE: thankfully Frost can also strip armor and Gara do all sorts of other things on top of defending the point, so kudos to their designs. NOTE #2: Pair Limbo with Excalibur(s)/Mesa(s) and laugh your heads off from the void.

In comparison to need/wanting ideal builds for certain missions, I don't really care too much what people bring to Exploiter Orb fights as it largely boils down to whether or not they know the fight and can do what needs doing. I think this is a good place to be as you allow people to play what they want which enables them to largely play how they want and the fight gets left to knowing what you're doing. Sure, there are some nice things I can do such as bring Oberon to remove chilled from teammates in the first phase, but it's not nearly as important as the above examples for other missions.

Cheers. Kudos on the good discussion btw.

 

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Posted (edited)

"Support Frames are Terrible"

Hildryn: *exists*

Banshee: *exists*

Chroma: *exists*

Equinox: *exists*

Rhino: *exists*

Trinity: *exists*

Edited by WoodedSkate89

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1 час назад, WoodedSkate89 сказал:

Banshee: *exists*

Chroma: *exists*

Do you really think they're okay? One has only 1 useful ability. The other has 2, but got a huge nerf in his time. These frames are garbage.

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Just now, zhellon said:

Do you really think they're okay? One has only 1 useful ability. The other has 2, but got a huge nerf in his time. These frames are garbage.

Chroma's 2 and 3 is OP. His 4 is a decent passive damage output. His 1 is genuinely awful.

Banshee is OK. If you mod her you can get millions of damage

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34 минуты назад, WoodedSkate89 сказал:

Chroma's 2 and 3 is OP. His 4 is a decent passive damage output. His 1 is genuinely awful.

Banshee is OK. If you mod her you can get millions of damage

Millions of damage in conditions of normal mobs are no longer a problem. And as for the dragon, his defense will fall before his damage is needed. With the same success it is possible to take a rhino or octavia and not worry about the mechanics running around with weapons that are only able to selfdamage. 

Both frames are obsolete and useless. They're not even fun to play.

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On 2019-07-25 at 5:54 AM, moostar95 said:

if it wasn't for hunts being a thing, trin and support playstyle in general would of been forgotten. 

100% agree with is. Only time I ever use trinity any more is hunts. Oberon I suppose could be included in the support frame class because of his healing, and armor stripping, idk about anybody else but I still play oberon quite a bit.

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37 minutes ago, zhellon said:

Millions of damage in conditions of normal mobs are no longer a problem. And as for the dragon, his defense will fall before his damage is needed. With the same success it is possible to take a rhino or octavia and not worry about the mechanics running around with weapons that are only able to selfdamage. 

Both frames are obsolete and useless. They're not even fun to play.

Lets just agree to disagree. I know a lot of people that strongly disagree with you. And I'm sure you do I.

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Posted (edited)
Le 12/08/2019 à 09:39, Klokwerkaos a dit :

it's almost like what you're saying is the same thing all vets have been saying since forever... warframe needs challenge appropriate to the power level of the game to make squads matter.

now me, i always squad... why?  it's not for the team mates... it's because their presence means more loot pinatas and since i can clear a tile as fast as can bullet jump through it that just means more resources for my dojo.  but notice how the rest of the squad'S contribution is completely irrellavent to my being able to succeed.

indeed, on occasion i've had people get pissy in chat and say to me at various points:  "if you're so good, we're just going to stand here and fail the mission"... and then i clear the whole thing, for all four players, without their help, and pick them off the floor when they get shot because i can, because i literally don't need them and even their active hindrance by being a distraction to pick off the floor rather than clear enemies makes no difference to my success.

at best, someone that is equally as powered as me, can maybe save me three seconds on a sabo mission by pulling the other canister while i grab the other one, or hack the other stealth computer... they haven't made any difference in my guaranteed success, they have only shaved off .5 seconds off the mission complete time and that's only if we aren't waiting for a full minute on extract for babyexcal69 mr 6 who is still lost at the beginning of the mission.

the thing is, i'm not saying this to measure my  e-peen because literally anyone can do this in the game and it takes minimal skill and effort, just time investment.  i'm saying it to agree with how much of a problem the game design is...

again...

which will be ignored by de...

again...

The only problem most game designers have is that they have to create a constant flux of new "content" especially in such a collection game, weapons for example. And to make them more and more interesting they always end with power creep, which means that your typical mission will be less and less challenging. It's basically why MMOs are dying, they aren't evolving, theyre doing the same thing over and over until players are bored.

Sure WF does have additional missions or areas but nothing really changes as a whole since every new content is designed to replace older ones with new items to collect. That's kind of lazy design tbh but i guess it's the easiest way to make profit - creating new areas with the same old missions doesn't need a lot of brainstorming, i couldn't even quote any recent game with some innovative gameplay, or at least revolutionnary design. Any strategy game fan could play 4X games or wargames for decades cause this games are meant to be played a billion times. MMOs are more like fast foods, lots of fat and sugar to make them more appealing but no substance - not enough to compensate the repetitive gameplay. And by substance i mean fun - many people are playing games they have no fun with, which is ironically really sad.

So DE can implement new missions on harder difficulty like they did with arbitration, but it won't be enough cause game isn't even balanced so difficulty is really different between a low MR player and one who already got everything to gear him to the teeth. Get a fully geared Inaros and try to die at least once, best weapons/powers are literally destroying everything already...The only thing DE came out with were nullifiers and drones which are basically "cheating" with the game's rule to be some kind of threat. It's going nowhere.

Perhaps the difficulty increase could also hide in more tactics but tbh -i know it hurts but - most players aren't really smart or way too lazy to learn tactics anymore. Modern games are more based upon braindead easy farm than demanding elitist strategies so... More difficulty in 2019 means enemies with huge health pool or stupid oneshot players mechanics. More coop could be fine too, what they did with Disruption missions in Jupiter is interesting but game is still really lacking of more incentive to play along with other people anyway.

Edited by 000l000

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2 hours ago, 000l000 said:

The only problem most game designers have is that they have to create a constant flux of new "content" especially in such a collection game, weapons for example. And to make them more and more interesting they always end with power creep, which means that your typical mission will be less and less challenging. It's basically why MMOs are dying, they aren't evolving, theyre doing the same thing over and over until players are bored.

Sure WF does have additional missions or areas but nothing really changes as a whole since every new content is designed to replace older ones with new items to collect. That's kind of lazy design tbh but i guess it's the easiest way to make profit - creating new areas with the same old missions doesn't need a lot of brainstorming, i couldn't even quote any recent game with some innovative gameplay, or at least revolutionnary design. Any strategy game fan could play 4X games or wargames for decades cause this games are meant to be played a billion times. MMOs are more like fast foods, lots of fat and sugar to make them more appealing but no substance - not enough to compensate the repetitive gameplay. And by substance i mean fun - many people are playing games they have no fun with, which is ironically really sad.

So DE can implement new missions on harder difficulty like they did with arbitration, but it won't be enough cause game isn't even balanced so difficulty is really different between a low MR player and one who already got everything to gear him to the teeth. Get a fully geared Inaros and try to die at least once, best weapons/powers are literally destroying everything already...The only thing DE came out with were nullifiers and drones which are basically "cheating" with the game's rule to be some kind of threat. It's going nowhere.

Perhaps the difficulty increase could also hide in more tactics but tbh -i know it hurts but - most players aren't really smart or way too lazy to learn tactics anymore. Modern games are more based upon braindead easy farm than demanding elitist strategies so... More difficulty in 2019 means enemies with huge health pool or stupid oneshot players mechanics. More coop could be fine too, what they did with Disruption missions in Jupiter is interesting but game is still really lacking of more incentive to play along with other people anyway.

1) Innarros is trash frame for noobs, but that said, it only makes your point stronger that the game is too easy.

2) "harder" doesn't just mean amping up hp and armor.  that's the problem.  de keeps doing that without actually giving the enemy responses to deal with the players that affect the power level of the game (what you might call tactics, but it can be more than that, such as abilities, environmental conditions/effects/machines), etc.  this is because they frankly, don't give a crap about the vets, because no matter what they say, their track record says different in a very egregious manner.

3) calling arbitrations hard in any sense is a joke.

4) "most players aren't really smart or way too lazy to learn tactics anymore"  and that's why most players shouldn't be doing endgame content, because they are braindead messes, and frankly, they have 5K hours of warframe ahead of them before they are ready to tackle anything that could reasonably be called endgame, but because they are whiney babies they will demand everything be nerfed into the ground so they can feel like special snowflakes.  on this excuse, i agree, but note that it is a bull**** excuse and those players can eat a fat one.  warframe already caters to 5000 owers of whiney entitled baby screaming.  there is no need to give them more content.  at some point the training wheels have to come off otherwise the end result is weakness and death.

 

 

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Posted (edited)

I feel like energy flaws could be fixed if you spawn in with max energy and energy restores had a time limit between when you could use them.

Edited by (XB1)LordZonut

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On 2019-08-14 at 10:48 AM, WoodedSkate89 said:

"Support Frames are Terrible"

Hildryn: *exists*

Banshee: *exists*

Chroma: *exists*

Equinox: *exists*

Rhino: *exists*

Trinity: *exists*

M8, Chroma is a DPS. Once again, plenty of frames can "support". But to call all of them support frames is a bit misleading.

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, Duhktape said:

M8, Chroma is a DPS. Once again, plenty of frames can "support". But to call all of them support frames is a bit misleading.

I know chroma's a DPS. But he can also support

He gives shields and damage buffs to his squad.

If thats not a form of support I don't know what is

Edited by WoodedSkate89

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On 2019-08-20 at 11:17 AM, WoodedSkate89 said:

I know chroma's a DPS. But he can also support

He gives shields and damage buffs to his squad.

If thats not a form of support I don't know what is

Once again, see the first section of my video. I am specifically talking about Warframes that have ability sets, or builds, that focus specifically on supporting other players. Trinity, Oberon, Wisp, Vauban, and niche builds for other frames.

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1 hour ago, Duhktape said:

Once again, see the first section of my video. I am specifically talking about Warframes that have ability sets, or builds, that focus specifically on supporting other players. Trinity, Oberon, Wisp, Vauban, and niche builds for other frames.

Oh fair enough.

But oberon still has some good damage potential (with his 2 and 4), vauban is getting reworked, wisps 4 is also good

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