Arbitrations -- Another "tier" (or maybe change the normal one idk) where all non-bonused gear is PENALIZED

[Charlsendrex]

So the general concept of Arbitrations, I actually enjoy. Randomly picking a frame and weapon combo for you and giving them bonuses encourages diversity of play, right?

 

Well, no. Of several people I've done impromptu in-game discussions about it with, they usually just stick to their handful of high damage and/or high survivability frames and flavor of the week meta weapon(s), occasionally swapping to use a different meta frame if it happens to be bonused.

So there goes what I'm guessing is the entire point of the arbs, no one wants to deviate from what works best in the meta, so unless the bonuses line up with meta stuff, there's no real reason to change. The fact that they're still putting out 100% of their broken damage means they really suffer from no loss of efficiency.

Now I know just changing the base arbitrations in such a way as I propose would probably piss off a LOT of Endo farmers, so this is why I'd say to make it a different tier or whatever. Call them True Arbitrations or something.

Give a bonus to a particular frame, and let's say two weapons of different slots (so you aren't stuck having to try to use, say, a melee weapon on a ranged-focus frame, or try to kill shield drones with it). Everything else will be a 50% power/strength/damage penalty.

Now, to participate in these True Arbitrations, you have to put down your super meta ultimate nukeframe and thrice-formaed Ignis and dig something out of your closet that you haven't used since you maxed it out for MR. Or I mean, I guess you COULD still use the meta stuff, but your killing efficiency will be halved - a surefire way to make even the tryhardest of tryhards think, "well maybe I can go without my broken build just this once."

Edited July 25, 2019 by Angrytiger

[Guest]

And nobody would play it. Because they are being railroaded into a specific build.

 

[krc473]

2 minutes ago, Angrytiger said:

So there goes what I'm guessing is the entire point of the arbs, no one wants to deviate from what works best in the meta, so unless the bonuses line up with meta stuff, there's no real reason to change. The fact that they're still putting out 100% of their broken damage means they really suffer from no loss of efficiency.

The reasons I don’t bother with this are fairly obvious ones.

1. Rewards. They are the same regardless. Why use trash when it is still worse than what you would normally?
2. Bonuses. They are simply not worth it. I sometimes take the bonus frame, never the weapon. When you own almost every weapon, and every single frame you get the bonuses on totally useless weapons. 

4 minutes ago, Angrytiger said:

Give a bonus to a particular frame, and let's say two weapons of different slots

You need to take one for each slot. There should be four bonuses: the frame and one weapon from each set (primary, secondary and melee).

7 minutes ago, Angrytiger said:

a surefire way to make even the tryhardest of tryhards think, "well maybe I can go without my broken build just this once."

I think what you actually mean is: “oh, I might just completely ignore this new mode and keep doing old Arbitrations”.

[Charlsendrex]

Just now, Datam4ss said:

And nobody would play it. Because they are being railroaded into a specific build.

 

Hence why I said to make it an optional tier.

I mean, your instant gut response is to say something like this, but chasing the meta is a railroad all its own.

What the hell is the point of giving bonus damage to, I dunno, like Convectrix or something, just to have people go "lol Convectrix is crap" and use whatever they feel like? I mean, they're not wrong, but I'm just using it as an example.

Perhaps I'm just willfully misinterpreting what the "point" of arbs is, but the bonuses to me suggests it's something like what I'm saying. As of right now, as I already said in OP, it's just a Nightmare variant (condition: Shield Drones) you can play once an hour and occasionally get bonuses to your already broken meta build.

If it's supposed to be a challenge, then I'd say being encouraged to use certain frames/weapons plays heavily into that. That's what makes it a challenge, is having to improvise and overcome based on the conditions you work with.

[Charlsendrex]

5 minutes ago, krc473 said:

The reasons I don’t bother with this are fairly obvious ones.

1. Rewards. They are the same regardless. Why use trash when it is still worse than what you would normally?
2. Bonuses. They are simply not worth it. I sometimes take the bonus frame, never the weapon. When you own almost every weapon, and every single frame you get the bonuses on totally useless weapons.

You need to take one for each slot. There should be four bonuses: the frame and one weapon from each set (primary, secondary and melee).

I think what you actually mean is: “oh, I might just completely ignore this new mode and keep doing old Arbitrations”.

Can't quote in pieces on my phone but:

First and third parts of your post: Yes, this is precisely why I am saying to make it its own animal. Make it have a reason to be done over normal arbitrations. Give it its own mod reward pool (hundreds of nukeframe players ree in the distance) or give it a bigger Endo amount reward.

You can just stubbornly sit it out until the RNGods smile on you and give you a buff to a frame or weapon(s) you like, OR just, you know, try something new.

Second: yeah, you're probably right. I was already thinking "well if you're gonna penalize everything else, might as well diversify", and yeah, makes sense to have a full kit get bonused.

Edited July 25, 2019 by Angrytiger

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Angrytiger said:

Hence why I said to make it an optional tier.

Precisely because of that, no one would bother. As @krc473 above explained, there is no purpose doing content for the sake of doing content for the majority of the players. If you would be the sort to do content for the sake of it, you would use the buffed stuff, not the meta stuff, anyway.

2 minutes ago, Angrytiger said:

What the hell is the point of giving bonus damage to, I dunno, like Convectrix or something, just to have people go "lol Convectrix is crap" and use whatever they feel like? I mean, they're not wrong, but I'm just using it as an example.

So, what's the point of giving +300% power STRENGTH to Loki on arbs? I dunno man. Not that Loki is terrible in arbs but it's just pointless.

4 minutes ago, Angrytiger said:

I mean, your instant gut response is to say something like this, but chasing the meta is a railroad all its own.

There is still more variety in "meta" guns and frames than a selection of 3. Just leaving that there.

[Charlsendrex]

12 minutes ago, Datam4ss said:

1.) Precisely because of that, no one would bother. As @krc473 above explained, there is no purpose doing content for the sake of doing content for the majority of the players. If you would be the sort to do content for the sake of it, you would use the buffed stuff, not the meta stuff, anyway.

2.) So, what's the point of giving +300% power STRENGTH to Loki on arbs? I dunno man. Not that Loki is terrible in arbs but it's just pointless.

3.) There is still more variety in "meta" guns and frames than a selection of 3. Just leaving that there.

1.) Then as I said, "True Arbitrations" have their own, unique and/or increased rewards over normal ones. You're not "locked out" of the content, you just either have to bite the bullet and just use something you ground to 30 for MR fodder and never touched again, or wait patiently until something you think is "good" to become available as buffed gear.

2.) There are some indirect skill frames that don't really benefit from it, true, but it doesn't really provide a direct reason not to do it. Maybe add health/shield bonuses too or something. They refresh once an hour so if it happens to be a truly astonishingly bad roll of a frame that doesn't benefit and three (see above, I conceded it makes sense to have one weapon in each slot bonused) utterly crap weapons that even with bonuses will not be competitive... Just wait 60 minutes.

3.) And how many are NOT favored by the meta? You ever see a Vauban in an Arbitration? Anyone rock a Miter for their primary? Seen a Lato lately? My entire point is that, given that it's a CHALLENGE, you will be given the CHALLENGE of using a Vauban equipped with a Miter and Lato but buffed to hell and back so that you can keep your power fantasy going.

Edit: and since, in your own words, there's such VARIETY in the meta, surely one of the four buffed things will be a meta weapon or frame, right? What are the odds it won't be, e So what's the problem?

Edited July 25, 2019 by Angrytiger

[krc473]

15 minutes ago, Angrytiger said:

Make it have a reason to be done over normal arbitrations.

You are going to have to offer something far better than what normal Arbitrations do. You gear that lack potatoes and forma are still not going to compete with meta gear. That’s the issue. So you will also have to either narrow the selection criteria from ‘everything’ or substantially increase the buff. I have nearly everything, so I at least have the option to use the buffed item. But I haven’t bothered to potato or forma gear I do not like. These might need 1000 - 2000% damage buffs to equal what others would get. It is still going to be more efficient to take meta gear and sacrifice 50% of your damage, because that will be far superior to many trash weapons.

 

With the limited information provided I would not be touching these at all. There is no reason to. Maybe, add what you believe will be sufficient incentives to get people to play it. Just ‘increased endo’ is insufficient; how much more would be offered? I might do it for 10x the Endo. How will you change the bonuses to account for trash weapons being constantly picked?

Edited July 25, 2019 by krc473
Typo

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Angrytiger said:

1.) Then as I said, "True Arbitrations" have their own, unique and/or increased rewards over normal ones. You're not "locked out" of the content, you just either have to bite the bullet and just use something you ground to 30 for MR fodder and never touched again, or wait patiently until something you think is "good" to become available as buffed gear.

You do that, community backlash will be ... unmanageable. Trust me. DE nerfed Orb Vallis enemies because lots of people didn't want to bite the bullet, but wanted the rewards.

6 minutes ago, Angrytiger said:

2.) There are some indirect skill frames that don't really benefit from it, true, but it doesn't really provide a direct reason not to do it. Maybe add health/shield bonuses too or something. They refresh once an hour so if it happens to be a truly astonishingly bad roll of a frame that doesn't benefit and three (see above, I conceded it makes sense to have one weapon in each slot bonused) utterly crap weapons that even with bonuses will not be competitive... Just wait 60 minutes.

So essentially, your solution to people's disapproval is "wait and hope". That does not fly with most.

7 minutes ago, Angrytiger said:

3.) And how many are NOT favored by the meta? You ever see a Vauban in an Arbitration? Anyone rock a Miter for their primary? Seen a Lato lately? My entire point is that, given that it's a CHALLENGE, you will be given the CHALLENGE of using a Vauban equipped with a Miter and Lato but buffed to hell and back so that you can keep your power fantasy going.

Vauban doesn't work because Vauban is pure CC and Arbitrations completely ban CC/constantly cleanse CC with the drone spam. Even if he was given the PS buff, he wouldn't work because his powers are mostly non functional in Arbitrations. The Meta for Arbitrations was created precisely because Arbitrations itself had design that enforced such a narrow Meta in the first place. Metas are created by the conditions of the game. Narrow Metas cannot exist if the content is not the kind that is very specific and many imposed limits.

It's not a challenge so much as artificial difficulty. It ends up becoming a slog.

[Charlsendrex]

3 minutes ago, krc473 said:

You are going to have to offer something far better than what normal Arbitrations do. You gear that lack potatoes and forma are still not going to compete with meta gear. That’s the issue. So you will also have to either narrow the selection criteria from ‘everything’ or substantially increase the buff. I have nearly everything, so I at least have the option to use the buffed item. But I haven’t bothered to potato or forma gear I do not like. These might need 1000 - 2000% damage buffs to equal what others would get. It is still going to be more efficient to take meta gear and sacrifice 50% of your damage, because that will be far superior to many trash weapons.

 

With the limited information provided I would not be touching these at all. There is no reason to. Maybe, add what you believe will be sufficient incentives to get people to play it. Just ‘increased endo’ is insufficient; how much more would be offered? I might do it for 10x the Endo. How will you change the bonuses to account for trash weapons being constantly picked?

I mean, that's valid I suppose? A more cynical approach would be to cast DE as a bad guy here and say "wait you mean we'll get people to impulse-buy potatoes to put on gear they never use otherwise because they're too impatient to wait an hour? Sweet!"

I really don't have an answer for you, other than to just parrot myself -- I really, REALLY enjoy the idea of being required - or heavily encouraged at least - to use gear you never otherwise use. Make True Arbitration have lower health on enemies (ironic considering I'm trying to sell it as a "higher level" thing), give better buffs like you said.

There's really no way for me to project what kind of rewards to be "fair" because as I've already seen in replies in the mere hour this has been up, just the sheer notion of playing with something you don't often use seems to rub people the wrong way. I mean, maybe it's because I am still climbing the MR ladder, but I don't just go leech in Hydron every time I get a new weapon or frame, I'll run a couple missions with it just to see how it functions outside of preconceived notions.

A personal nexample here is Titania, I only recently got her and love her to bits. Razorwing is downright FUN for me. Can I take her on sorties? Not really. Can she hang in ESO? Not really. Diwata is trash and Dex Pixia is only slightly better. But I enjoy the gameplay of her, probably mainly because it's DIFFERENT. So I'm taking her into 25-minute Mot Survivals, falling behind the Catchmoon wielding Wukong (Primes) in kill efficiency but enjoying myself nonetheless.

I am not saying I don't enjoy the massacre-style OP gear, myself. Could always do with some bloodletting. But it's nice sometimes to remember that there are programmers and artists at DE who came up with neat-on-paper ideas that might not be as efficient at finishing a full Sortie blitz in under 10 minutes... But that's no reason to just throw them aside and ignore them for the rest of the game.

And the entire point of this thing I'm suggesting is precisely that, to get EVERYTHING the game has to offer into the limelight.

[Dama73]

So what happens to those people who dont have the weapons/frames that are on the arberation roll that day?

I tend to not keep weapons and frames I dont like, so are you saying that I and other players are to be punished for not having every single weapon or frame in inventory at all times?

[Charlsendrex]

8 minutes ago, Dama73 said:

So what happens to those people who dont have the weapons/frames that are on the arberation roll that day?

I tend to not keep weapons and frames I dont like, so are you saying that I and other players are to be punished for not having every single weapon or frame in inventory at all times?

You don't have to play the content. If FOMO dictated gameplay choices, then DE would have deleted Balor Fomorian events since everyone keeps screaming about how much they hate Archwing. How dare they have sorties when players who haven't potatoed any gear yet can't keep up!? WTF remove Profit Taker since not everyone has SU maxed! Dude I want Wisp but haven't done TWW yet, this is such BS!

Again, a cynical person would point out: complaints like yours almost make it an obvious thing for DE to do. Because now you're gonna get people impulse buying frames or guns off the market just to participate in this specific tier of Arbs.

Also, arbitrations are once an HOUR.

Okay, here you go: bonuses will only be given to gear in your inventory. Therefore, the truest minmaxers who only keep their optimum gear will only get their optimum gear bonused, and if anything it's a hindrance to completionist people who have an arsenal full of crap.

Edited July 25, 2019 by Angrytiger

[Guest]

15 minutes ago, Angrytiger said:

I really don't have an answer for you, other than to just parrot myself -- I really, REALLY enjoy the idea of being required - or heavily encouraged at least - to use gear you never otherwise use. Make True Arbitration have lower health on enemies (ironic considering I'm trying to sell it as a "higher level" thing), give better buffs like you said.

You already answered your question. You are thinking about yourself here, not the majority.

16 minutes ago, Angrytiger said:

A personal example here is Titania, I only recently got her and love her to bits. Razorwing is downright FUN for me. Can I take her on sorties? Not really. Can she hang in ESO? Not really. Diwata is trash and Dex Pixia is only slightly better. But I enjoy the gameplay of her, probably mainly because it's DIFFERENT. So I'm taking her into 25-minute Mot Survivals, falling behind the Catchmoon wielding Wukong (Primes) in kill efficiency but enjoying myself nonetheless.

Eh, Titania does ok on Sortie so long as it's not energy drain. ESO is a different bag but ESO is exactly the same as Arbs in one aspect - it is the conditions stipulated that limit frame choice.

Again, symptomatic curing that does not fix the core problem fixes nothing.

4 minutes ago, Angrytiger said:

Okay, here you go: bonuses will only be given to gear in your inventory. Therefore, the truest minmaxers who only keep their optimum gear will only get their optimum gear bonused, and if anything it's a hindrance to completionist people who have an arsenal full of crap.

Which again causes all its problems like "I have to sell my 6 forma meme grakata max fire rate bla bla" and forces people to forma everything they want to keep to max tier.

There is no solution. As I said, treating a disease symptomatically is not a cure.

[Charlsendrex]

18 minutes ago, Datam4ss said:

1.) You already answered your question. You are thinking about yourself here, not the majority.

2.) Eh, Titania does ok on Sortie so long as it's not energy drain. ESO is a different bag but ESO is exactly the same as Arbs in one aspect - it is the conditions stipulated that limit frame choice.

Again, symptomatic curing that does not fix the core problem fixes nothing.

3.) Which again causes all its problems like "I have to sell my 6 forma meme grakata max fire rate bla bla" and forces people to forma everything they want to keep to max tier.

There is no solution. As I said, treating a disease symptomatically is not a cure.

1.) I really don't get this pushback. I've seen similar sentiment in response to the people talking about how they like to "take their time" or whatever and the response is overwhelmingly "lol just play solo or git gud noob". I myself tend to prefer the storm-of-death approach to missions, but I'm also not going to dismiss the players who aren't able to keep up with the front line of the blitz. If I were suggesting a radical change to a fundamental part of the game, you might have a point, but I'm talking about an optional feature. Yes, optional.

Even if it has a unique reward pool, it's optional. Just like in order to get every Warframe's augment I either need to trade with other players or sacrifice potatoes to rebuild rep with hostile factions. Just like to get new rivens I need to be able to do a sortie. And hey, you're right, you can be carried in a Sortie if you're not quite up to par! Sooooo... Then... People can be carried in my arbitration idea if they have a truly poor set of rolls.

2.) Remove shield drones in my idea. Ez. You can try to dismiss this with your casual "symptomatic treatment" stuff, but that's what it takes. You're BUFFING the weaker frames/guns (or again, happening to get buffs on something already widely used). The alternative I guess would be to nerf everyone's Saryn virus bombs but I don't think that'd go over too well.

Hell, let's stop saying I'm trying to call this a "higher" level of arbitration. It's a sidestep. A different type. This one focused on the idea of diverse loadouts where you have to throw everything you've got into the game and have skill dictate your victory, not a gun with Primed mods and a perfect meta Riven and 8 Formas invested into it.

3.) Dude, you are not FORCED to do anything. I know this will astound you, but in many cases gear will be able to survive with its native 30 mod points and any built-in polarities. I guess here's the problem: you're laboring under the delusion that "if it doesn't outperform 95% of the available gear pool, it's trash", which is precisely why I keep droning on and on about the meta. I'll admit that. My point is, especially if (as I concede) it weren't as brutal as normal Arbitrations, the buffs will offset the non-potatoed, non-formaed aspect of it. You won't be as fast, though, and I guess if it boils down to it, that's what spooks you about this so much.

Edited July 25, 2019 by Angrytiger

[krc473]

8 hours ago, Angrytiger said:

Diwata is trash and Dex Pixia is only slightly better.

I guess you are allowed to think that. I completely disagree. Titania is a frame I would take to the mentioned places.

8 hours ago, Angrytiger said:

just the sheer notion of playing with something you don't often use seems to rub people the wrong way

This is where having some idea of the potential rewards would be useful. It is very easy to dismiss something like this. A new game mode that is basically the same as another, but encourages you to use gear you hate for no benefit. That doesn’t sound great. If you come up with suitable rewards, people will start to agree.

8 hours ago, Angrytiger said:

And the entire point of this thing I'm suggesting is precisely that, to get EVERYTHING the game has to offer into the limelight.

But why? I have tried most of the weapons by now (I like to at least try them before deciding I hate them). But nothing will make me take something like a Gaze kitgun, Amprex or Rubico to Arbitrations. Some weapons are great for some content, but really bad for others. 

• Example: I like the Secura Penta. It is a weapon I enjoy using. Would it be sensible to take it to Arbitrations? Absolutely not. There are weapons people won’t use because they are not appropriate.

8 hours ago, Angrytiger said:

A more cynical approach would be to cast DE as a bad guy here and say "wait you mean we'll get people to impulse-buy potatoes to put on gear they never use otherwise because they're too impatient to wait an hour? Sweet!"

This would be an optimistic approach. You have the problem that most people would only take gear with a Forma (or five) in it. People are unlikely to buy a potato to be able to do it, because the weapon will still be weaker than a meta one. Basically, this will just result in a whole lot of pointlessly buffed weapons that people won’t use. The buff is not sufficient to compensate for being terrible modded.

Edited July 25, 2019 by krc473

[(PSN)Double991]

I'm still not picking that 300% Power Strength Loki.

[ShortCat]

19 hours ago, Datam4ss said:

DE nerfed Orb Vallis enemies because lots of people didn't want to bite the bullet, but wanted the rewards.

It seems people still do not understand why there were complaints about Valis enemies.

/derail thread post end

[Guest]

2 hours ago, ShortCat said:

It seems people still do not understand why there were complaints about Valis enemies.

Ayy come on I did OV on the very first day it came out ...

It wasn't as bad as a lot of people made it out to be.

[(PSN)nekokujo]

Halve the rotation lengths, and I’ll happily play it.

[Charlsendrex]

2 hours ago, (XB1)GaussPrime said:

I'll pass, this sounds ... and completely kills player choice.. we don't need that.

 Just choose yourself and you're fine. Don't like meta stuff? Don't use it. Simple as that. No need to lock a whole game mode behind a slot machine.

Just as you would choose whether to do it or not. Just as you would choose whether to do syndicate missions or not. Just as you'd choose whether to do Arbitrations in the first place or not.

I like the irony of you talking about choice, then talking about how you are FORCED to do this. Nope, just like I have not been forced to build Cetus rep and build a Zaw yet, just like there's no penalty to not doing every day's sortie.

At the end of the day, a PVE game is all about choice. Any limits or conditions you set on yourself ("I MUST do every Sortie to make sure I have the best chance of getting rivens that will make my PVE experience better!") are personal choices. I pretty much gave up on getting Orokin Vault mods (unless I happen to run across the room without intending to), but there's literally no penalty to me other than my own feeling of completionism.

So far, the sum total of rebuttals fits in two categories:

- Good ol' Fear Of Missing Out

- legitimate concerns about a truly trash roll where you get a frame with no benefit to power strength and a bunch of "inefficient" weapons

For the latter, this is balanced out by the fact that arbitrations rotate once an hour. As I said, despite the thread title I don't really think there's a valid reason to taking away normal arbs, but my question then is, do you spend 60 minutes in every arbitration? No, you do other stuff while waiting for the new one. Or maybe just talk crap in Region or something, the real endgame, but again that's a personal choice. Hell, for that matter, you can do the normal arb AND my proposed alternate version within the same hour. Or choose to do one but not the other. Or just skip arbitration that hour altogether.

For the former... Sorry, but this is not an argument in good faith. Just because you personally don't like the content type and the fact that you miss out on rewards doesn't mean you should take the opportunity away from others. Just like I wouldn't want people to lose their mods and weapons from all the events I've missed. I don't get bitter and go "man this is BS how dare someone have something I don't!" They chose to start playing the game earlier, or chose to participate in the event, and they got rewarded for it.

I have precisely 0 of the rewards from the Fortuna event (the fissures or whatever). Probably never gonna get to it. Some people have Opticor Vandals, good for them. Some people have Amalgam Shotgun Spazz or whatever, good for them. I'm not gonna rage at DE to take away those players' content because I have no interest in it, myself. Likewise, rejecting my concept on the basis of "I don't like having content somewhere that I wouldn't personally ever participate in" is a remarkably personal judgment, and presumes that everyone in the game has the intention to play every mission type and all open world content and every alert or special event or... Etc.

I'd be interested in DE's stats on, I don't know, Ayatan Treasure Hunts. You think everyone in the game does those? Someone on the WF Reddit shared that 1% of steam players have MOAs (by achievement stats) By your argument, delete MOAs from the game then, a very small number of people even bothered with them so no big deal. "I don't (intend to) participate in it" is not a fair reason to remove (or reject future) features, sorry.

Edited July 26, 2019 by Angrytiger

[Charlsendrex]

2 hours ago, (XB1)GaussPrime said:

Don't like meta stuff? Don't use it. Simple as that. No need to lock a whole game mode behind a slot machine..

Double posting, but wanted to just try another angle on this one and didn't want to keep ninja editing myself:

"Don't like the (made viable by buffing) stuff? Don't use it." That's what I'd say if this mode already existed, and it has about as much standing.

Having the buffs offsets the damage drawbacks of these weapons. A fair point is available regarding situational/gimmick weapons, but that's a different discussion. Many guns and melee weapons are fine mechanically, they just don't have the raw DPS.

And since it might have been lost in my wall of text: I conceded and changed my mind about removing/changing normal arbs. This would be a second simultaneous OPTION in your Alert window. My proposal isn't locked behind a slot machine, it's locked behind your willingness to use "sub optimal" gear. Oddly enough, this goes right back to one of my first counterpoints, where I critiqued someone trying to say "the game isn't 'worth' playing if I can't walk all over it!" And yeah, this is precisely what you're saying, you can not tolerate people playing a type of mission that you aren't THE BEST in.

So I'll dust off my original counterpoint to that: tryhards are welcome to skip this game mode.

Edited July 26, 2019 by Angrytiger