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[DE]Bear

Dev Workshop - Revisiting Augments

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While you are at it you could maybe also fix the missing effect with the pyroclastic flow augment from nezha, the effect when you kick the flame after damage build up is missing for me for probably halve a year now and it makes playing with that augment not fun at all.

 

Hope you can fix that soon and thx for the great work you do.

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I am not going to talk about each of these augments individually because 1) that will take all day/night and 2) I haven't even put investment into like half of these warframes yet. However, if these "rarely used" abilities (and others) will seriously be considered for reworks, I would like to talk about why all of these abilities or augments have been neglected for so long.

Over the years of playing this game, reading the wiki, experimenting with builds, watching youtube how-to's, and chatting with clanmates, I've learned one true aspect that is shared across ALL warframes:

"There are no "best" builds, but there are "at the very least" builds."

This means that while someone can tell you exactly which 10 mods and 2 arcanes you should put on a warframe to have it function at what they assume is "maximum end-game performance"; in actuality, you probably only need to follow about 80% of their so-called recipe for success, while the other 20% is up to personal preference.

Take Excalibur. How do we build this warframe for general, everyday content, but have it also scale flexibly into high levels? Start by understanding his abilities. Against high level enemies (sortie/kuva flood/1hr survival/etc. not something ridiculous like "I have the day off so lets play a T4 survival for 10 hours straight"), his 4 is his staple ability and treasures efficiency and strength. His 2 benefits his 4 which is crucial; it benefits from duration and range, but taking the nature of the ability into account, we understand that its an "instant" cc and not a "lasting" cc (meaning it only affects those at the time of cast and doesnt stay in the map after cast). Couple that with the fact that it requires line of sight and it's correct to say that while a certain amount of duration is important, efficiency is more so because those blinded enemies will not survive long when followed up with Exalted Blade, plus new enemies will constantly spawn when existing are killed. Excalibur's 1 functions as mobility/panic invulnerability and benefits from range; strength doesn't matter here because low level enemies will die from neutral strength anyway and high strength won't even tickle a high leveled Lancer. Again, efficiency is valued here because the invulnerability isn't lengthened by duration but can be used quickly and repeatedly.

In summary, Excalibur is a frame that wants high efficiency and strength, and "at the very least" decent duration and range. This is how almost every Excalibur is built.

This is also why both his 3 and its augment are comparatively useless with the rest of his kit. His 4 deals better damage, it shares the same range as its 2 which also stuns enemies longer, and even with the augment his 2 still boosts Excalibur's damage on enemies on a much larger scale and for a much cheaper cost, both energy-wise and modding.

This all boils down to two things. For an ability/augment to be worth using, it needs to provide something that the rest of the kit doesn't AND it has to be benefiting from our "at the very least" builds. E.g Furious Javelin, it provides nothing truly beneficial to the rest of the kit and even if we included it into our builds, the fact that it wants EVERYTHING (high duration, high range, AND high strength) does not fit well into most Excalibur builds, which as mentioned before are mainly high efficiency and strength.

I'm very much hoping that if there really is going to be a mass overhaul of rarely used abilities/augments in the future, the community can assist as a source of pre-rework feedback, especially those that have their favorite warframes that they use religiously. I'm sure that those who main Mesa, or Garuda, or Frost, or any other warframe they fell in love with, have a deeper understanding of the workings of their abilities beyond the wiki. I'm sure they know the strengths of the frame, the weaknesses, and that they've dreamt up dozens of ways to fix them in ways that would actually fit in modern builds.

But for now I guess this will have to do.

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As for volt, remove timer from his shield once picked up, maybe let him cover more of himself and for the sake of everything thats sane remove speed penalty...

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I think you should consider designing augments more to augment abilities so they have new uses and not just make them numerically stronger, for example nezhas blazing just makes it stronger, sure I love it and use it all the time, but it doesn't change the way I use the ability at all. On the other hand we have an augment like pyroclastic flow that doesn't let you kill enemies that much faster, but completely changes the way you play with that ability.

 

That is why I think pyroclastic flow is a better augment even though blazing chakram is a stronger one.

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vor 15 Stunden schrieb LeTigreVolant:

I feel like Volt should not have an energy drain when move his shield around, considering he is the fastest frame (at least for now)

Volt isnt reallly the faster frame, there are a couple frames that are just as fast or faster, for example saryn has the same speed multiplier on her two as volt has. And there are a couple more frames that can be faster like Nova.

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1 minute ago, n.ull. said:

I think you should consider designing augments more to augment abilities so they have new uses and not just make them numerically stronger, for example nezhas blazing just makes it stronger, sure I love it and use it all the time, but it doesn't change the way I use the ability at all. On the other hand we have an augment like pyroclastic flow that doesn't let you kill enemies that much faster, but completely changes the way you play with that ability.

 

That is why I think pyroclastic flow is a better augment even though blazing chakram is a stronger one.

I agree, changing them to a different form like atlas's augment that creates 1 big elemental instead of 2 small ones is the sort of thing thats cool.

Magnetic discharge for MAG disarming seems silly when the augment for the third power does a much better job, magnetic discharge should cause a massive ragdoll blast when you detonate the sphere (not much damage mind you, just throws things away from the exploding magnetic orb)

Also chroma's augment that just changes the colour and ups the status a bit seems wasted too since the new weapon system allows you to colour it anyway. Maybe make ability 4 energy blade bolts bounce off in a random direction once it hits a target would be more interesting.

 

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vor 15 Stunden schrieb Koldraxon-732:

Speaking of augments, could Exalted Weapon augments be possibly moved to the Exalted Weapon itself as to allow for more build variety?* This would require a lot of new Exalted Weapons to be created though, like with Chroma's Spectral Scream.

Edit regarding more Exalted weapons: A lot of weapon-like abilities are under-performing in comparison to others. Some of the most obvious ones being a LOT of first abilities, with major examples being Volt, Frost, Nekros, Ember and Chroma's breath.

 

Edit. *This could turn those augments into Exalted Stances which alter the ability's function, but nothing else. I also agree that more room for more mods (slots and capacity, that is) would be nice.

Don't really agree on spectral scream being an exalted WEAPON, rather some kind of exalted ability at best but nothing else (I agree on some of the exalted weapon augments as being part of the weapon, cuz let's be real excals exalted blade without chromatic blade would be ten times less effective or valkyrs hysterical assault kinda fits too good to be an augment) 

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15 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:

Target Fixation - Tail Wind Augment - Zephyr

  • Remove buff after 2 seconds of being on the ground, instead of immediately
  • Damage increase per target hit

Okay DE, this might, just might, come as a surprise to you. But I play a lot of Zephyr. A. Lot.

So, when I saw Target Fixation on the list I thought that you might have done something substantial to it.

There is a problem innate to this augment that your changes do not address, and they're precisely why this augment does not work in the first place. No amount of buffing to these mechanics you've added will change that problem.

Target Fixation does not work because it fails to put Tailwind in context with Zephyr's other abilities. Zephyr's abilities, three out of the four of them, are modded with Duration.

Tailwind is a Duration based ability, as is Turbulence and Tornado.

If you mod for a long Duration on Turbulence and Tornado in order to get the most out of those two casts, you also end up getting the longest Tailwind. This makes it absolutely, categorically impossible to use Target Fixation.

I spent a long time today testing and re-testing. I would use Tailwind in a situation where there were enough enemies around in order to get the buff to reasonable levels (with some range you can get to 300% damage, which shouldn't be bad, in one pass). I cast Tailwind at the enemies, taking into account my surroundings, and attempted to land so that I would get the benefit of the proposed 2 second delay in the buff being removed, I attempted to use wall-jumps and wall-latches to the same effect.

Tailwind's Duration modding made using it literally impossible in any setting. Indoors, outdoors on the open worlds, even in the Simulacrum because you hit the respawn walls sooner than you can make it back and re-target the enemies you were trying to hit.

I then modded for shorter Duration, attempting to exclusively mod for Target Fixation and to get the most out of a shorter Tailwind that would not fire me off the edge of any given map or pin me into a corner forcing me to wall-cling to end the momentum, and do you know what happened in those missions?

I died. A. Lot.

I also wasted a huge amount more energy due to having to consistently cast Tailwind from the ground, as jumping to get the reduced cost often caused me to hit the ground before I meant to because I have to aim at all the enemies that are on the ground.

Turbulence and Tornado being at their base values of duration meant that I was unable to actively use that Target Fixation without my Turbulence running out. Even if I was extremely generous and said that I had only spent 2 seconds on the ground at any point to maintain the buff on Target Fixation, the moment a Turbulence recast came around it didn't matter whether I was in the air maintaining that buff or not, I would die to enemies that would now be close enough and completely un-CC'd enough to hit me while I was vulnerable, and the recast would often make me land on the floor and cancel the buff.

Without Duration, Zephyr's primary methods of survivability, her Turbulence and her large-area CC, are solidly compromised, and with Duration modding, her ability to actively use Target Fixation is completely non-existent.

I will add one more thing to this little tirade;

Tailwind's base damage is 500. With a little Umbral setup, that makes it 1000. I will step up and say that you could put Target Fixation's multiplier at 500% per enemy and it would still be terrible damage, and an un-usable augment.

There are dozens of ideas here on the Forums, from simply bringing back Dive Bomb Vortex (which was, and still is, a better augment for the cast), to making Target Fixation be a damage multiplier for while you're using the Hover. At least that would give players an actual reason to use the Hover.

Spoiler Alert; as proud as some of you were of the Hover, you forgot something important there too. Zephyr is mobile, and you've given her a dedicated cast where you have to squat on the ground, immobile, until you squeeze out that lifting gas, and then you have an arbitrary (non-Duration, non-timer delimited) time hovering, still completely immobile. It achieves nothing for Zephyr.

If the Hover were a mobile cast, able to be charged while moving on the ground, and able to be cast in the air to lock her in place as a brake, if it had a Duration we could mod for to be reliable when we actually use it, then maybe, just maybe Hover would be a viable use of time and Energy, but at the moment whoever gave it the okay in the current state might want to double check their working.

tl;dr

Target Fixation is the only augment in the game that is completely countered by the base functions of the ability it augments, and is unusable if the frame is modded to take advantage of its two other Duration based abilities.

And these proposed buffs to it still do not take that into account.

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15 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:

Hysterical Assault - Hysteria Augment - Valkyr

 

  • Let invulnerability linger for half a second when aiming to prevent getting downed immediately in high-damage areas, Increased Range

Rising Storm - Blade Storm Augment - Ash

  • Attacks by clones will raise the combo counter 
  • Include a passive benefit to extend the combo counter by a duration

Titanic Rumbler - Rumblers Augment - Atlas

  • Increase to damage and speed 
  • Re-triggering the power will activate the taunt, as well as cause a knockdown effect

Hallowed Eruption - Hallowed Ground Augment - Oberon

  • Additional passive ability that triples base duration

Furious Javelin - Radial Javelin Augment - Excalibur

  • Increase duration and damage on the buff

Tidal Impunity - Tidal Surge - Hydroid

  • Increase the duration of the immunity buff

Magnetized Discharge - Magnetize Augment - Mag

  • Include a passive benefit that increases power range for this Ability only 

Muzzle Flash - Shooting Gallery Augment - Mesa

  • For kills made by a player (self or ally) with Shooting Gallery activated, generate a blinding AoE when threshold is met

Explosive Legerdemain - Sleight of Hand Augment - Mirage

  • Increase damage and status chance when triggered

Total Eclipse - Eclipse Augment - Mirage

  • Increase range on the buff to other players

Piercing Roar - Roar Augment - Rhino

  • Allow Roar to be recast when equipped
  • Increase debuff duration based on equipped Mods
  • Generate a stagger effect on enemies when the Roar hits

Contagion Cloud - Toxic Lash Augment - Saryn

  • Allow buff to activate when enemy is killed by damage over time effects
  • General increase on range and damage

Transistor Shield - Electric Shield Augment - Volt

  • No additional energy drain when a shield is picked up by another player
  • Increase damage conversion %

Target Fixation - Tail Wind Augment - Zephyr

  • Remove buff after 2 seconds of being on the ground, instead of immediately
  • Damage increase per target hit

Fireball Frenzy - Fireball Augment - Ember
Freeze Force - Freeze Augment - Frost
Smite Infusion - Smite Augment - Oberon
Venom Dose - Spores Augment - Saryn
Shock Trooper - Shock Augment - Volt 

  • Holding the casting button will send out a wave (much like similar, expanding Warframe Abilities) giving the elemental buff to every player it touches, including the caster

From the top: Valkyr. The problem with hysteria is that Aiming in anyway takes you out of hysteria, which kills you. The Aug needs to be changed in someway to make you jump but not take you out for a small amount of time. Making it linger isn't even a good QOL aug, it's just awful.

Ash: The clones already add to the combo counter, Is just a nerf to Ash by making it aug only? Extra combo counter duration is good, but it comes with making the clones only add combo with the aug is a really bad idea.

Atlas: The problem is that 1 big rumbler is cool, But it's just worse than 2 rumblers in total hp and damage, aggro gain, and takes a mod slot? Make the 1 Big Rumbler equal to 3 small rumblers and then it'll work. 200% is better than 150%, Lets just make it 300% and we are cool.

Oberon: Amazing, Looks really good. You can run this mod instead of narrow minded and save on Modding, and have more range for a killberon build. Only thing I'll say is to simply change Hallowed Reckoning, The 4th ability augment to place Hallow ground on cast instead of the current zones. Same small AOE, but It'll strip armor for less energy cost, and has the trade off of not granting any allies extra armor. the Zone AOE was just far too small and the damage to weak anyway for it to really work, at least making it the grass adds more uses to it.

Excal: Just also make Javelin Scale with combo counter with this mod and then it'll worth it. Right now, it just doesn't add enough.

Hydroid: This aug wasn't worth a slot anyway, And I don't think adding more dur to it will make people run it. Try something else.

Mag: It's Fine, It'll allow you to take of a range mod to run this Aug, or if you were already running is aug, Extra range doesn't hurt you. Maybe your other squad members, but hey, this mod also allows you to detonate those inconvenient bubbles anyway.

Mesa: A small buff to a rarely run aug, it's just there. Doesn't hurt, doesn't really add anymore reason to run it.

Mirage: You need to looking at improving slight of hand first, It's just a bad ability that an aug can't save and buffing the aug won't change anything. All this does is making who programmed the buffs waste their time. Total Eclipse, on the other hand, Did indeed have a problem of being too short ranged, So this change is fine.

Rhino: Why? Rhino already has a "running augs just to recast" problem. You'll need try something by like making it linger and apply the debuff/buff to everything new that enters the range around rhino instead, other wise it's just adding more band-aids.

Saryn: Same thing as Mesa, It's small but there.

Volt: Making it not drain on anyone picking it up? Alright. Making the conversion % higher? You might look at making the Cap higher instead, The cap is too low for a increase to that to matter.

Zephyr: A Damage aug for a ability that is very hard to use for damage in anyway. Scrap this aug and find something new.

The elemental buffs: Smite infusion is now god, The others still have the problem of adding elements to make combos you don't want most of the time. Making them just add this element on top would feel far nicer. Also, this hurts ember's Flash accelerant by taking away it's AOE fire boosting, so you may want to have a look at that as well. Removing the Heat damage Amp and making it a movespeed or attackspeed buff could work, or just straight up proc heat on enemies to be a fast casting CC ability.

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Welp Saryn is becoming even more OP. Seems to have some of the best augment ideas in this list. For example, Saryn already kills hundreds of enemies she never sees... So an augment that increases both range and damage off of damage over time kills is even more broken.

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Regarding the Firequake aug for Ember. How about using it to change the current mechanics. Even if increases the cost for channel so it doesn't loose the range.

I used to use this with WOF to make Ember a CC frame, Dmg was not important so I was unenthused by the change to WOF. TBO I think it failed at its stated intent I can still blast thro low level missions (probably faster) where Iv observed an impact was in high level maps where the range and cc was more important than outright damage.

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that's great to hear, but please replace Hydroid's and Khora's Pilfering augments, too. They should receive something more worthwhile now that you can't stack with Nekros anymore, and Desecrate/Despoil is simply better than what they offer. Especially Hydroid could use some love.

 

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Please make all augment mods to able to fit into the exilus slot. 

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17 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:

Fireball Frenzy - Fireball Augment - Ember
Freeze Force - Freeze Augment - Frost
Smite Infusion - Smite Augment - Oberon
Venom Dose - Spores Augment - Saryn
Shock Trooper - Shock Augment - Volt 

  • Holding the casting button will send out a wave (much like similar, expanding Warframe Abilities) giving the elemental buff to every player it touches, including the caster

oh my god... my Buff Ember build will finally be viable and not just a meme.

 

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Posted (edited)
Il y a 21 heures, Gene_Freak a dit :

So, let me see if I have this right.

First, you guys broke Valkyr by making it so that when she aimglides she loses her invulnerability, because you made the choice to remove manual blocking without considering the ramifications across several frames, weapons and mods that rely on the established mechanics. Then, to compensate for this, instead of actually addressing the problems created by auto-block and expanded upon in a fifty page, nearly half year long thread that has not seen a single dev acknowledgement, you're making it so I have to slot an augment in order to gain back one half of one second of the functionality Valkyr had before you broke her.

I feel embarrassed for being hopeful.

Tbh while i can see why people would go mad at the change, it functionally made valkyr better by allowing two very specific things that couldn't be done beforehand:

- CO spooling. which multiplies her damage by easily 10x plus the additional armour strip on hard targets, on top of the ground pound bonus etc. She got something in the ballpark of an easy 320x + armour removal buff to her ground pound which already was one of the most damaging attacks in the entire game

- safe decast/ Rage charge. RMB decast doesn't actually decast so you can safely do it in the middle of a crowd to quickly recharge your energy via rage AND also it skips animations on both ends so it's much quicker to do.

 

Personally i'd 100% hate if she was brought back to her previous state, while an augment (even tho 0.5s is a bit too little) is imo the preferred solution so you can choose what you wanna have.

Edited by Autongnosis

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17 hours ago, Neightrix said:

Seeing as clones already add to the combo counter, does this mean you're planning on taking that away and making it exclusive to the augment. If so I'd prefer not.

Not included but I feel it's worth mentioning is Eternal War. It would be great if the augment also let you recast for half the energy cost to apply Warcry's slow effect on new enemies, otherwise you're locked out of slowing enemies when using the augment as intended. (It would also be nice if the strength required for maximum slow on enemies was reduced, but of course that's separate from the augment itself.)

I don't think most people are using Eternal War to slow enemies, just buff self and ally speed. The slow doesn't really matter in the long term

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why not add special slot for augment?
like exilus, or even better make the augment like the arcanes.

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17 hours ago, Xianos_Chaos said:

So Bladestorm will be reworked sometime later? Thank god, it needs it badly.

Where did you get this information?

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Posted (edited)
On 2019-07-25 at 5:00 PM, SkuLLtheDread said:

Hey @[DE]Bear nice to see - some of these changes look very promising!

As a Sandboi main, can I suggest Inaros' Augments here? I remember there was talk about him being a "selfish" frame, which birthed some rework to his Augment, but I have ideas, man!

TL;DR: 3 suggestions for better Scarab Swarm Augments, 2 suggestions for better Sandstorm Augments - read bold only and you'll get it.

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Negation_Swarm

I feel like this whole Augment should just be included in Inaros' 4th ability. Comparison - recent Wukong rework makes him just as tanky, with a free super powerful clone and the ability to move fast and undetected, heal and shed all Status effects at the press of a button (2). Meanwhile old sand boy needs a whole Augment just to be able to resist Status effects.

Negation Swarm is very much an essential mod (not an Augment), in my opinion. So I would merge it with his 4th ability and make a different Augment for his 4th, for example:

Inaros automatically trades % of his Scarab Armor to heal nearby injured allies.  - Basically allow Inaros to become a walking med kit in exchange for some percentage of his Scarab Armor (which he can then replenish by trading in his health, then seek ways to replenish that, thus tweaking/completing the Inaros health-gameplay loop).

Upon death, enemies trapped by Scarab Swarm release healing swarms that seek out Inaros and his allies (over great distance). - Scarab Swarm is great in that it turns enemies into health dispensers. The problem is that most people just go in and kill the trapped enemies, whose "health/second" effect is therefore wasted. Allies that could actually use it are usually too far or miss the health pulse. This Augment would guarantee a small bit of health return to everyone, thus making the ability more team-friendly.

Upon death, enemies trapped by Scarab Swarm have % chance to drop an Energy ball. - Again, some way to make Inaros into more of a team player and give some purpose to the senseless killing of the swarmed enemies who are just trying to have a sand party.

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Elemental_Sandstorm

The Sandstorm ability in itself is not the greatest and should probably be considered for a rework (anything that pushes enemies away from a tank is a bit counter-productive), but this Augment specifically feels so weak. Adding a 50% chance for a Status effect is hardly an Augment-worthy thing, since we have multiple ways to apply Status effects to anything with weapons, much more quickly and reliably than with an Augment to an already clunky ability.

Anything that makes it more like Wukong's Cloud Walker ability. - very fast / undetected / opens nearby enemies to finishers / heals / removes Status effects - any of those are great, especially the speed. This Augment would turn Sandstorm into more of a tactical / team player ability. Or even Stealth (we all know that Cloud Walker Wukong is the king of Jupiter Spy missions now).

Sandstorm dispenses energy/s allies within range while taking health/second from Inaros. If Scarab Armor is active, allies also receive armor/second. - This would be another nice loop, allowing Inaros to do a little more than just stun enemies and dispense health. Also a nice way to tie his 3rd ability to his 4th for that added armor bonus. Synergy. Beautiful sandy 

Quoted the wrong person, sorry

Edited by AaronGamer11
Mistake

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What if we have dedicated mod slots for Augments instead? And also MORE augment choices.

So we can get more customization and/or flexibility with our builds.

Example: ASH, Shuriken augments:
(1) Seeking shuriken - armor debuff
(2) Scattered shuriken, (spread)
(3) Kunai Throw (punch through)
(4) GIANT shuriken (one target),((x) dmg per second (+ability duration))

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Posted (edited)
19 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:

Magnetized Discharge - Magnetize Augment - Mag

  • Include a passive benefit that increases power range for this Ability only 

Well, I would like to see the Magnetize we saw in the new trailer. Make the magnetic field follow her so she can collect the bullets as she moves.  

Anyway, the bonus range is nice. But would like the recast on a Magnetize field to be more instant. Like, get rid of the hand animation on either the first or the second cast. Oh and if it's not too much to ask, also make the bullets that enter the field harmless to mag and her allies.

Edited by keychup

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Posted (edited)

Hallowed Eruption - Hallowed Ground Augment - Oberon

  • Additional passive ability that triples base duration

I use this augment to nuke enemies 40 or lower, tripling its base duration could make this do some serious damage. Please be careful making this change.

 

Edited by DeliciousDoob69
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2 hours ago, Autongnosis said:

Personally i'd 100% hate if she was brought back to her previous state, while an augment (even tho 0.5s is a bit too little) is imo the preferred solution so you can choose what you wanna have.

How about, they can change a Valkyr's default Hysteria back to having a functional aimglide, and then the augment can allow you to use a gun within Hysteria with a brief invincibility period? That way the majority of Valkyr players get the consistent function of their frame back, and if anyone wants to use a gun in tandem with Hysteria for maximum CO efficiency or other synergies they can mod specifically for that.

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Posted (edited)

Since we are in augmentations revisiting, can you plz revisit Pool Of Life for Trinity?
She's one of the least used support frame in the game (I dont remember the last time I've joined a squad with Trinity in it) and this augment is overshadowed by Blessing and Energy Vampire.

Edited by (PS4)Yuki5e7en

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Hysterical Assault - Hysteria Augment - Valkyr

  • Let invulnerability linger for half a second when aiming to prevent getting downed immediately in high-damage areas 
  • Increased Range 

 

The real problem with this augment is that when you aim to leap, Valkyr ends up drawing her primary/secondary.  This causes you to loose your melee counter, as well as allowing you to shoot while Hysteria is active.  This breaks whatever rhythm you have established while using melee with Hysteria active.  When Valkyr uses Hysteria, the drawing of her primary/secondary should be locked out until Hysteria is canceled either manually or by the lack of energy to continue the ability.  If weapon draw is locked out, then the extra invulnerability is not needed because Valkyr will not "loose" her exalted weapon due to triggering the augment.  It would be a better choice for her Hysteria ability to revert to the old system of manually blocking when activated.  I would also like to see the augment cause an AoE knockdown effect (no damage needed) if the leap one-shot kills the intended target.

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