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MrMrs

What would you do about CC frames?

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4 minutes ago, khazlol said:

Well they have talked about reworking damage for years. but it was delayed and then forgotten

I would forget about it too after looking at just how much work was entailed. It would be years of work and they have other things to work on that that. I would rather they come up with enemies that challenge us, maybe even force us to CC, instead of just nullifiers/straight up immune bullet sponges. There are plenty of concepts for enemies on the forums like that. 

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What DE really should do with CC is actually put some effort into how abilities interact with specialty enemies like bosses and anyone else that currently laugh at CC. Unique interactions, be they useful or less than useful, to give it something beyond mere AI or bodily manipulation. For example, off the top of my head, ideas over Nyx in several situations:

  • Nyx in Eidolon fights: Mind Control shouldn't work on big Eidolons at all, but should be castable and subsequently punish the player with something like a self stagger or concussion. Vomvalysts however should have weaker links to their Sentient brethren and be controllable for shorter than normal periods of time, as it currently works, but they should at least be able to do some light damage to Eidolon shields if anything. Chaos should work as it normally does, for a short period of time, giving the chance for Vomvalysts to even hurt their spectral forms, and even target the big guy for at least shield damage
  • Nyx in boss fights: Being able to mind control most bosses to give them a head ache for a short time, and then having a resistance to repeat attempts in a short time, with that cool down growing with every subsequent/successful attempt. Mind Controlled and Chaos'd enemies who target bosses should take initiative to rush their targets and gather aggro, that way serving a more effective distraction.

Or Vauban for another example:

  • Against boss fights, Vortex should occasionally stumble bosses who walk near it and slow them down, with an increasing resistance to subsequent procs. Same with Bastille, it should offer a slowdown similarly to how it affects other players under rad procs. Though I'm hoping for a complete removal of most of Minelayer, to think up of uses for them, the Tripwire could actually work against humanoid bosses but of course give them a quick recovery.
  • In Eidolon hunts, actually being able to lockdown Vomvalysts at least in physical form. Movement slowdowns against the big ones, but then completely crushing the small Minelayer grenades as they step on them, to show they're not entirely susceptible to all of Vauban's tricks.

When I say DE should put in effort, I mean new and custom animations+effects for these staggers and recovers on the boss' part. Something to make CC actually attempt to bully them in a way but actively show that these targets will not stand it to be abused for long. But again, that'd be effort, so we can't have that can we?

Aside from changing how they work against special enemies, straight up CC probably no longer has a real place in this game anymore without something further like helpful buffs/debuffs, physical cover. Hard benefits that can't be completely nullified by in certain situations. There's a reason Vauban currently only still sees use against Infested since the majority of them are melee units and charge towards you. Adding projectiles into the mix suddenly make Frost and Limbo far more attractive options, because Vauban can't physically block anything like that. Nyx's Chaos is cool in theory until you remember that the standard enemy AI kind of sucks at killing each other. How to fix such problems? Perhaps by giving Vauban some much needed physical ways to offer cover, maybe giving Chaos an enemy damage buff against each other or giving the team in range a buff of some kind. Things like that that can't be completely negated even when the enemies in question brush off being pushed around or confused.

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Nothing. 

Use them for the right missions. Interception, Mobile Defense, Sabotage, defection, Rescue, or any occasion where you don't want enemies to be shooting at you at all.

I use Nyx and Oberon all the time, for example. Especially nice in Sorties when there are squishy squadmates. 

If you're not dealing enough damage with a CC frame then I suggest you look at your weapons and their builds instead. There is very little content that require damage buffing frames.

 

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3 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

I believe this is a duplicate post? Will ask mods to delete or merge it. 

I reported on of the duplicate posts lol idk what they'll do

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You don't have to do anything.  CC frames will regain relevance when DE decides to place missions in that actually require more thought than just 'bring a tank or Saryn/Equinox, because that's where we are now.  

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CC by thinning the crowd. Thin the crowd down with our meta killing frames and our weapons. As a new player CC is helpful because we don't have leveled gear and fancy equipment, but it's also not necessary as most new and early content is so easy we don't even need CC . As a veteran, we can just with one swing of our donkey sword bonk the enemy upside the head and he tells 5 of his other friends to fall over dead as well. CC is needed if we have like hordes of enemies and we can't hold a point but more so we can just outright kill everything, except in the case of arbitration drones making enemies impervious to our charm. Maybe DE will add future content where we will have more enemies we aren't meant to actually kill because they aren't affected by damage but more so CC abilities.  

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7 hours ago, Cubewano said:

So what exactly is your suggestion here, remove any CC limiters from the game and let it run wild? How do you think that would impact the combat experience and balance of certain content and enemy designs? 

Frankly I dont have a suggestion. My comment wasnt a statement on anything besides observing why CC is weak at the moment. 

 

If I had to suggest something, CC benefits greatly from having something to stop enemies from getting to. Like a defense point, an objective of some kind. If de wants CC back into the meta, we would need to veer away from modes where you have a limited amount of time to do as much damage as you need and instead have as much time as you need to defend something like the old days

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6 hours ago, .Dracula. said:

in 'the early days' you camped in a pipe. I'd say power creep did us a favor.

Some did. 

Most did not. We had CC 'frames, after all. 

The difference was you either controlled the enemy (CC ability, the harder the better) or you restricted their access to you through map geometry. 

Now, well, you just kill stuff with AoE weapons and abilities since those have completely taken over and are thoroughly out of control. This happened in PSO and it's happening here. 

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As long as skills can be mindlessly spammed, cc frames will remain useless.  Either add cool down timers to abilities or eliminate/reduce all energy generating mods and arcanes as well as Zenurik so energy management and smart skill usage is a thing.  

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The problem is that this is a horde looter.

CC... doesn't really work for the game mode. Not when simply annihilating our enemies is more efficient.

What we need isn't so much to do less damage, but is to make CC worth using with the core design of the game. It's a much bigger problem than just how to scale damage.
Some of that is giving us enemies that are worth CCing, and CAN be to begin with. Another part of that is giving us enemies that can't be blown up with minimal effort.

Fight design in general is... sad to say, not a strength for DE yet. They show potential, but it's yet to be realized. Enemy AI simply does not call for a strategy more complex than spamming massive damage at everything in sight.

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i like to do long mot runs.. and one thing ill tell you is CC is still king after 70min into mot... ill take a disarm loki, speedva, slowva, frost, nezha anyday.. non scaling dps frames cant keep up after a certain point like mesa... she wont kill sht after 100min without help BUT yea you still need SCALING dps frames in long runs..using 4 cc frames wont work either but CC frames make it a breeze at long runs

my opinion most cc frames are bad not cc itself...

vauban: bastille has enemy limit. why? 

nyx: chaos is just a fake radiation proc

zephyr: why doesnt her tornado stay in one place? let us keep tornadoes in one place to lock down chokepoints

atlas: why enemy dont take status effect when petrified? 

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Make CC abilities have some (maybe different or limited) effect on ability immune enemies.  CC becomes better.

Like chaos on a nullie turns off their nullie drone for the duration (drone no longer sees nullie as ally).

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2 hours ago, (PS4)CommanderC2121 said:

Frankly I dont have a suggestion. My comment wasnt a statement on anything besides observing why CC is weak at the moment. 

 

If I had to suggest something, CC benefits greatly from having something to stop enemies from getting to. Like a defense point, an objective of some kind. If de wants CC back into the meta, we would need to veer away from modes where you have a limited amount of time to do as much damage as you need and instead have as much time as you need to defend something like the old days

But CC is weak even in content outside those instances. 

And CC was valuable in the old days because endurance runs were meta, and back then we were far more vulnerable and dps didn't scale nearly as efficiently so CC was needed to alleviate enemy threat so that we could fight back. As it is bringing back old school endurance wouldn't save CC either, since a single frame can more or less do what a group did back then, without the need for cc, because our killing potential and survability are vastly ahead of back then. (not to mention we all more or less have built in cc with our operators, spammable iframes, a mini constant energy restore) Defensive missions also don't bring value to CC frames, they bring value to defensive frames, and more or less just two, frost or limbo. There isn't a need for CC since killing is still the more effective method of disabling enemies, and costs just as much to achieve if not less for particular frames / weapon combos. 

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5 hours ago, DrakeWurrum said:

The problem is that this is a horde looter.

CC... doesn't really work for the game mode. Not when simply annihilating our enemies is more efficient.

What we need isn't so much to do less damage, but is to make CC worth using with the core design of the game. It's a much bigger problem than just how to scale damage.
Some of that is giving us enemies that are worth CCing, and CAN be to begin with. Another part of that is giving us enemies that can't be blown up with minimal effort.

Fight design in general is... sad to say, not a strength for DE yet. They show potential, but it's yet to be realized. Enemy AI simply does not call for a strategy more complex than spamming massive damage at everything in sight.

Relevance?

CC used to work, it used to be the meta, but as we became exceedingly more powerful, and enemies became exceeding less threatening, it more or less died off entirely. 

So long as we can near instantly vaporize enemies in large ranges at zero risk, no CC isn't going to make a return. CC is a form of support, it is only valuable when one is in need of aid, if someone is so fully domineering and peerless as we are now there is effectively no reason to want that support unit since nothing it does is called for. Enemies need to be more of a threat to players (right now they just flat out aren't in any way shape or form) and part of that is making it so we can't pretty much decimate them from a mile away out of sight in seconds if, even that, without any chance of retaliation, much less retaliation that can be felt. Our power sets have outscaled enemies by leaps and bounds, and we need to reel it in if we want support to matter more. (our power set is reeled in with certain boss fights and look how that managed for support roles, ala eidolons)

Enemy scaling (and our own) don't call for complex play, enemy ai doesn't even get a chance to operate given just how overwhelmingly stacked the odds are in our favor for near all instances of combat. 

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5 hours ago, Datam4ss said:

I will repeat - the reason why CC died is because anything which actually require to be CCed (things like Demolyst, Wolf of Saturn Six, Eidolon, Boss, Ancient Disruptor etc) are flat out immune to CC, while trash mobs which would be cleared by damage anyway, even from a gun, can be CCed but don't actually have to be CCed. Crowd Control is only useful if it can take something you cannot kill out of the fight so you can buy time to deal with it, but all these things where time needs to be bought, they are immune to CC anyway.

This is why, nerfing damage does not make CC relevant. It makes damage frames as useless and as irrelevant as CC frames, and makes the only viable content a strong gun with high damage. That solves nothing. A CC frame right now is like a powerlifter being asked to run in 100 meters sprint, because, say there is a ban on power lifting in the olympics. You don't cut off the legs of the actual runners to make the powerlifter relevant, you give him back the sport he excels at.

This is not properly accurate. Why should  i use  Nyx when equinox can cc and kill the enemies?Some frames with only cc abilities have no sense to exist anymore, they should retire themselves.

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Nyx is still more then viable, I can do every piece of content in the game with her, and main her, vauban on the other hand....

She definitely needs some more changes and QoL dont get me wrong, but all of her abilities have uses, she can tank and can buff herself with absorb, its not great by any means buts it better then using tesla or bounce lol

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Just now, bibmobello said:

Why should  i use  Nyx when equinox can cc and kill the enemies?

Your comparing a frame with basically 8 abilities and the ability to nuke an entire room, with a frame meant for tanking hits, and ccing, its not a fair comparison

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15 hours ago, .Dracula. said:

You can reminisce about camping in a pipe with Vauban all you want, but DE is never going to nerf damage, sorry. With power creep came more active and flowing ability kits instead of being forced to mod for one ability or the other like the game use to be. For the record, sitting in a pipe behind a vortex while Trinity gives you energy is probably just squeezing by the definition of 'teamwork'. I also never ever run into a mission where a single player is doing literally everything. Is this just a pseudo "nerf Saryn" thread I never see her anywhere outside of ESO. All that needs to happen is more content that benefits more from locking down enemies instead of killing them, not an all around damage nerf, which is hard to do for a looter shooter hoard game.

Sorry I forgot about the ever so engaging mesa sits on a box and presses 4 while mag pulls in energy orbs.

I wasn't reminiscing, I was stating factual realities, you were wrong about why those play methods happened and I offered the actual explanation for where it came from and why it left, no need get defensive about it. And fluid ability kits have nothing to do with the heights of power creep in the game, Nidus was pretty much the poster boy of a fluid kit and he isn't remotely on the level of say a nuke frame, those aspects aren't one in the same and never have been. As for hard carries maybe that just means you were the carry player in question, just play some fissures though, you'll find plenty of speed runners depleting enemies faster than they spawn. Or just read the forums for the on and off thread about people who feel pushed out of play by a teammate with meta frames and meta weapons leaving no play for them. At this point we empty rooms as quickly as we enter them, that doesn't leave room for multiple people to be involved in combat. I do agree making more defensive oriented modes could help the issue of CC specifically being less desirable, but what exactly would these modes do? The best we've gotten for a cc specific mode in the second stage of lor, and that's about it. And how would you keep those modes engaging amidst all the cc? 

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They dont need to nerf damage frames, they just need to make more content where CC is viable, instead of what there making now, looking at you jovian concord. The more you make enemies immune to CC, the more you make damage frames, and tank frames, the likely choice for people to pick

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the only thing u can do about CC frames, and defensive support frames (like Oberon, Hildryn, etc.) is crank up the difficulty. Harder enemies, better AI, whatever. as long as DE is stingy on the scaling, and as long as they don't give a fuk about endgame content, we will never see a role for these frames. again - what's the point of shutting down the map if no one is at risk of dying? Why do it if it's just better to nuke the tile set?

Arbitrations come a tiny bit closer to giving a reason for these guys to exist, because nuke frames are less potent.

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2 hours ago, OmegaDonut said:

As long as skills can be mindlessly spammed, cc frames will remain useless.  Either add cool down timers to abilities or eliminate/reduce all energy generating mods and arcanes as well as Zenurik so energy management and smart skill usage is a thing.  

I'd prefer we just tone down their range / aoe presence, this is a horde shooter, being able to efficiently take down a small (within reason) range isn't going to heavily break the potential for enemy opposition. That plus reduction in our overall ability to be virtually immortal, or otherwise improvements to make enemies able to pose more of a threat (operator iframes really need to be addressed) would probably give CC a fighting chance. We just need to give enemies a fighting chance to be a remote threat/problem. 

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9 minutes ago, Ikyr0 said:

Arbitrations come a tiny bit closer to giving a reason for these guys to exist, because nuke frames are less potent.

Yeah but the same drones that make nuke frames less potent, basically invalidate cc frames, theres a reason why most people take certain frames like inaros, rhino, etc into Arbys

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Just now, Vanilla_nuka said:

Yeah but the same drones that make nuke frames less potent, basically invalidate cc frames, theres a reason why most people take certain frames like inaros, rhino, etc into Arbys

Nyx's CC goes through drone buff.

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6 minutes ago, Ikyr0 said:

Nyx's CC goes through drone buff.

I have never personally seen that happen,  I would have to test this later. from everything that I have seen, enemies shielded by the drone can not be affected by CC abilities, and the enemies that are affected prior to the drone protecting them, have the ability dispelled when the drone comes near them

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