Hunter Munitions Myths?

[TheArcSet]

Hi, This post is to try and clear up some of the many mechanics people keeps saying about hunters munitions, that aren't mentioned any where on the wiki.

1st Myth:

• Unlike the rest of the game, where bleed is 35%*Faction_modifiers*Modded_Base_Damage*Faction_modifiers(again) (*Armour_modifiers*Criticals), Hunter munitions also scales off elemental damage mods. I think this is just FALSE. But people keep repeating it and if anyone can show it to be true, please post here.

2nd Myth:

• Each pellet in a shotgun weapon can proc munitions separately, but the damage will only scale off the pellets damage, so you won't get 8 procs of 35% of the arsenal damage. This may make Hunter munitions less useful for weapons with lots of pellets, but it will still increase damage. I think this is TRUE. But again citation would be appreciated.

3rd Myth:

• Bleed procs ignore armour. Sadly this is FALSE. Bleed ticks deal True damage, which has no armour modifiers, or damage reduction, but the ticks are scaled off weapon damage, which is very much effected by armour; this means that the only time armour won't effect bleed ticks is: when there is none, or when it's removed after the proc, and the damage doesn't update.
  In a positive turn, unless it's one of the simulacrum bugs, this information turns out to be incorrect. Despite a number of videos appearing to show changing bleed values, with Corrosive_projection equipped and absent and a lot of anecdotal comments, together with, some reddit posts corroborating those videos; at the present time I am unable to replicate those results, with body and head shots remaining consistent regardless of solo armour stripping. Perhaps this was due to complete armour stripping changing damage modifiers.
   

4th Myth:

• Multishot increases Hunter munitions proc chance from 30%. This is sort of BOTH, where there are multiple projectiles from multishot (say +1 (100% MS&CC) for simplicity) the chance of one proc will go up, however the arsenal damage is now split between two bullets so while the chance of 1 proc will be 0.3+0.3-0.3*0.3 = 51%, up from 30%, the chance of getting two procs and therefore 35% of the listed arsenal value is only 9%. So Multishot is good and increases ammo to proc efficiency and bleed consistency, but it won't give as much extra bleeding damage as you might think; for +1 physical bullet, in 91% of cases you'll bleed proc will deal half of 35%(ect) of the arsenal listed damage, that's inflated by combining bullet damage.
• I am working with the assumption that, outside of beam weapons, the extra multishot damage is delivered by the extra bullet(s); this may work differently between hitscan and projectile weapons.

5th Myth:

• You can stack simultaneous bleed procs from one shot. This is just FALSE. Though Hunter munitions can give an extra proc from a shot, it can't give an extra bleed proc, the wiki clearly says that if there are both a munitions proc and a slash status proc, one will be ignored. So Munitions is not a sensibly choice for weapons with both high slash and status. You can however stack bleed procs from separate bullets, presumably including physical multishot bullets.
   

6th Myth:

• Red crits increase the proc chance, or allow another proc. This seems to just be FALSE.

Edited August 4, 2019 by TheArcSet

[WhiteMarker]

4 minutes ago, TheArcSet said:

Bleed procs ignore armour. Sadly this is FALSE. Bleed ticks deal True damage, which has no armour modifiers, or damage reduction, but the ticks are scaled off weapon damage, which is very much effected by armour

Sadly you are wrong.
Bleed is unaffected by armor. And it scales off BASE damage, not damage dealt.
So it's is completely unaffected by armor, and you are wrong.

I really have no interest to talk about the rest of your post, if you don't even know how the basic mechanic of bleed proc works.

[rapt0rman]

#1 HM bleed procs use the same formula as other bleed procs, uses your modified base damage (no elements As posted somewhere below, if the base damage itself is elemental then it does count).

#2 Correct.

#3 Bleed procs do ignore armor.

#4 Multshot from mods does not split base damage, it's entirely bonus damage, only the base multishot in shotguns splits the base damage. Modded multishot simply increases your general probability.

#5 It's the same as any other bleed proc, stacks just fine. (OK I see you're referring to multiple slash procs on a single hit, yeah that can't happen)

#6 yeah that one is false.

Edited July 29, 2019 by rapt0rman

[DontRunWScissors]

Yeah... something tells me it would be weird if your armor was bleeding, lol.

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, WhiteMarker said:

Sadly you are wrong.
Bleed is unaffected by armor. And it scales off BASE damage, not damage dealt.
So it's is completely unaffected by armor, and you are wrong.

Can confirm this. Tested in simulacrum vs level 160 Heavy Gunners and Corpus Tech. The bleed to both is the same.

14 minutes ago, TheArcSet said:

Multishot increases Hunter munitions proc chance from 30%. This is sort of BOTH, where there are multiple projectiles from multishot (say +1 for simplicity) the chance of one proc will go up, however the arsenal damage is now split between two bullets so while the chance of 1 proc will be 0.3+0.3-0.3*0.3 = 51%, up from 30%, the chance of getting two procs and therefore 35% of the listed arsenal value is only 9%. So Multishot is good, but it won't give as much extra bleeding as you might think.

It improves consistency of getting at least one proc per use of ammo.

15 minutes ago, TheArcSet said:

Each pellet in a shotgun weapon can proc munitions separately, but the damage will only scale off the pellets damage, so you won't get 8 procs of 35% of the arsenal damage. This may make Hunter munitions less useful for weapons with lots of pellets, but it will still increase damage. I think this is TRUE. But again citation would be appreciated.

Again, it improves consistency that you are getting procs every trigger pull.

But there is no shotgun which is really worth it since no shotgun has high enough crit chance.

[Xzorn]

1.   It does if the base damage type of the weapon happens to be Elemental.
2.   Difference in base pellet count does not increase or decrease the avg damage; it makes the proc rate more or less consistent.
3.   They do ignore armor since it's a function of the weapon's base damage.
4.   Multishot is multiplicative to your Avg status / Hunter's proc rates. Best to avoid Probability and use averages. A weapon with 100% crit chance would be (0.3) * (1 + 0.9) = 0.57 or 57% average Bleed proc rate per shot.
5.   True - As in accurate
6.   True - As in accurate

Edited July 29, 2019 by Xzorn

[WellIHopeThisOneWorks]

5 minutes ago, Datam4ss said:

But there is no shotgun which is really worth it since no shotgun has high enough crit chance.

(that and a lot of the meta shot guns can just max out status to guarantee a proc per pellet every trigger pull!)

[(PSN)boilerhogbc]

14 minutes ago, DontRunWScissors said:

Yeah... something tells me it would be weird if your armor was bleeding, lol.

Some next level Garuda stuff.

 

[TheArcSet]

On 2019-07-29 at 4:56 PM, WhiteMarker said:

Sadly you are wrong.
Bleed is unaffected by armor. And it scales off BASE damage, not damage dealt.
So it's is completely unaffected by armor, and you are wrong.

I really have no interest to talk about the rest of your post, if you don't even know how the basic mechanic of bleed proc works.

The point of this post was to discuss the myths that keep being circulated, and this is the most prominent one, though easily tested.
Though I will re-test, just for you, just to check.

Edited July 30, 2019 by TheArcSet

[TheArcSet]

On 2019-07-29 at 5:02 PM, rapt0rman said:

#1 HM bleed procs use the same formula as other bleed procs, uses your modified base damage (no elements As posted somewhere below, if the base damage itself is elemental then it does count).

#2 Correct.

#3 Bleed procs do ignore armor.

#4 Multshot from mods does not split base damage, it's entirely bonus damage, only the base multishot in shotguns splits the base damage. Modded multishot simply increases your general probability.

#5 It's the same as any other bleed proc, stacks just fine. (OK I see you're referring to multiple slash procs on a single hit, yeah that can't happen)

#6 yeah that one is false.

Thanks for clarifying one, that was what I meant by base damage, but it may not have been as clear as possible,
I will test 3 again, but I think it's the ticks, rather than the proc.
Are you certain about 4? I mean, with actual projectile weapons, there are physical bullets/pellets from the multishot, and especially with low accuracy, some of theses can miss, meaning they deal 0 damage, so why would their procs behave differently to shotgun pellets and scale off the 'shot' damage, rather than the bullet damage. Hitscan weapons may behave differently.

Edited July 30, 2019 by TheArcSet

[TheArcSet]

On 2019-07-29 at 5:10 PM, Xzorn said:

1.   It does if the base damage type of the weapon happens to be Elemental.
2.   Difference in base pellet count does not increase or decrease the avg damage; it makes the proc rate more or less consistent.
3.   They do ignore armor since it's a function of the weapon's base damage.
4.   Multishot is multiplicative to your Avg status / Hunter's proc rates. Best to avoid Probability and use averages. A weapon with 100% crit chance would be (0.3) * (1 + 0.9) = 0.57 or 57% average Bleed proc rate per shot.
5.   True - As in accurate
6.   True - As in accurate

Thank you for the input, apart from armour that was mostly what I meant, but I have made edits to try and communicate more clear.

[WhiteMarker]

33 minutes ago, TheArcSet said:

The point of this post was to discuss the myths that keep being circulated, and this is the most prominent one, though easily tested.
Though I will re-test, just for you, just to check.

You didn't test it to begin with.
You just stated that bleed procs would scale off damage dealt, which is wrong. You didn't provide any tests, you just stated something that was wrong...

[Lutesque]

On 2019-07-29 at 5:56 PM, WhiteMarker said:

Sadly you are wrong.
Bleed is unaffected by armor. And it scales off BASE damage, not damage dealt.
So it's is completely unaffected by armor, and you are wrong.

Jesus dude... Calm Down.... 

The purpose of this thread was just to dispell any myths about HM and Bleed Procs in general.... 

Theres no need to jump on anyone claiming they're wrong out right. 

On 2019-07-29 at 5:56 PM, WhiteMarker said:

 

I really have no interest to talk about the rest of your post, if you don't even know how the basic mechanic of bleed proc works.

If thats the case then don't bother responding in the first place.... Go Away be pain to someone else....

On 2019-07-29 at 6:06 PM, Datam4ss said:

But there is no shotgun which is really worth it since no shotgun has high enough crit chance.

Actually the Vaykor Hek can dish out the pain to Level 140 Targets just in twice the amount of time as The Tigris Prime but the inconsistencies in crits and status are really holding it back.....

I've got a Hek riven.... il need to roll something really good to be sure...

On 2019-07-29 at 5:49 PM, TheArcSet said:

3rd Myth:

I think everyone else has already covered this as far as Armor Goes.... but there is another factor to consider. 

Enemies with damage reduction.

It seems like enemies with Damage Reduction are highly resistant to the effects of Bleed Procs.... sadly the only  enemy you can test this on as the Grineer Nox as all the others are immune to status effects outright 

On 2019-07-29 at 5:49 PM, TheArcSet said:

•  

5th Myth:

• You can stack simultaneous bleed procs from one shot. This is just FALSE. Though Hunter munitions can give an extra proc from a shot, it can't give an extra bleed proc, the wiki clearly says that if there are both a munitions proc and a slash status proc, one will be ignored. So Munitions is not a sensibly choice for weapons with both high slash and status. You can however stack bleed procs from separate bullets.

This one is the one I need clarification on....

So Hunter munitions won't stop other possible Procs on the same projectile unless it also happens to be a slash proc.... ? Is that right ? 

[WhiteMarker]

Just now, Lutesque said:

Jesus dude... Calm Down.... 

The purpose of this thread was just to dispell any myths about HM and Bleed Procs in general.... 

Theres no need to jump on anyone claiming they're wrong out right. 

If thats the case then don't bother responding in the first place.... Go Away be pain to someone else....

OP doesn't want to dispel a myth, when he got the basic mechanic of bleed wrong.
OP didn't ask how bleed procs works. They straight up said, that bleed procs are affected by armor because of the damage they scale off, which is wrong.

[Lutesque]

3 minutes ago, WhiteMarker said:

OP doesn't want to dispel a myth, when he got the basic mechanic of bleed wrong.
OP didn't ask how bleed procs works. They straight up said, that bleed procs are affected by armor because of the damage they scale off, which is wrong.

And that gives you the right to be rude ? 

I never said OP was wrong or right but its easy to see why they made this thread.... you don't seem to be interested in any if that. You just came here to talk down someone. 

Not Cool....

[WhiteMarker]

Just now, Lutesque said:

And that gives you the right to be rude ? 

I never said OP was wrong or right but its easy to see why they made this thread.... you don't seem to be interested in any if that. You just came here to talk down someone. 

Not Cool....

If OP wants to dispel myths, and if they don't know how things work, they should ask.
They just straight up spread a myth by saying bleed procs would be affected by armor. OP did the opposite to what this thread is supposed to do. 
I was direct in telling them they were wrong.

[OvisCaedo]

Hmmm. A while ago, I remember a rumor that the bleed procs specifically WEREN'T ignoring the armor of units that had nonstandard armor types, such as the grineer Ghouls having cloned flesh armor or a couple of Vallis robots that I think had... robotic armor or something??

[Lutesque]

16 minutes ago, WhiteMarker said:

If OP wants to dispel myths, and if they don't know how things work, they should ask.
They just straight up spread a myth by saying bleed procs would be affected by armor. OP did the opposite to what this thread is supposed to do. 
I was direct in telling them they were wrong.

You're hopeless....

Consider yourself ignored....

[rapt0rman]

1 hour ago, TheArcSet said:

Thanks for clarifying one, that was what I meant by base damage, but it may not have been as clear as possible,
I will test 3 again, but I think it's the ticks, rather than the proc.
Are you certain about 4? I mean, with actual projectile weapons, there are physical bullets/pellets from the multishot, and especially with low accuracy, some of theses can miss, meaning they deal 0 damage, so why would their procs behave differently to shotgun pellets and scale off the 'shot' damage, rather than the bullet damage. Hitscan weapons may behave differently.

Just to clarify, the entire formula for calculating slash procs uses just your weapon and its mods, from that the slash proc damage is predetermined before you ever hit an enemy. Even if the entire initial hit damage is reduced to 1 damage by armor, the slash proc will still deal it's predetermined slash proc damage. 

That said, there are enemies with general damage reduction, and also strengths/weaknesses to finisher damage in particular.

At this point I'm not sure what you were originally asking about #4.

 

46 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

This one is the one I need clarification on....

So Hunter munitions won't stop other possible Procs on the same projectile unless it also happens to be a slash proc.... ? Is that right ? 

Yep, you can potentially get up to three procs on one single projectile if the weapon has its own forced proc. For instance, Arca Plasmor: forced impact proc, rad proc via status, and slash proc via HM.

Edited July 30, 2019 by rapt0rman

[TheArcSet]

1 hour ago, WhiteMarker said:

You didn't test it to begin with.
You just stated that bleed procs would scale off damage dealt, which is wrong. You didn't provide any tests, you just stated something that was wrong...

That was an assumption, although in fact I did use multiple sources of 2nd hand evidence and as such I am glad you prompted me to test again myself, removing multishot and set mods this time.

I am sorry that that was the point I was confident enough about to state outright, unlike some of the others and I am glad it is now fixed and not another source of mis-information.

[(PSN)death404]

28 minutes ago, TheArcSet said:

That was an assumption, although in fact I did use multiple sources of 2nd hand evidence and as such I am glad you prompted me to test again myself, removing multishot and set mods this time.

I am sorry that that was the point I was confident enough about to state outright, unlike some of the others and I am glad it is now fixed and not another source of mis-information.

Thank you for making the thread btw, it cleared my understanding up around HM a lot.

[Tiltskillet]

On 2019-07-29 at 8:49 AM, TheArcSet said:

Though Hunter munitions can give an extra proc from a shot, it can't give an extra bleed proc, the wiki clearly says that if there are both a munitions proc and a slash status proc, one will be ignored.

FWIW, I tested and verified this recently for my own curiosity's sake. With HM and high slash status chance, and without multishot, I could never get more than one bleed proc per shot.

Edited July 30, 2019 by Tiltskillet

[Lutesque]

2 hours ago, rapt0rman said:

Yep, you can potentially get up to three procs on one single projectile if the weapon has its own forced proc. For instance, Arca Plasmor: forced impact proc, rad proc via status, and slash proc via HM.

This is interesting. WAIT !!!! so.... if you can't get Slash twice then will the game reroll which Status Effect to apply or do you just nothing ? 

I ask because I need to decide what to Roll on my Dread Riven....

[DarthKadra]

On 2019-07-29 at 6:49 PM, TheArcSet said:

Multishot increases Hunter munitions proc chance from 30%. This is sort of BOTH, where there are multiple projectiles from multishot (say +1 (100%) for simplicity) the chance of one proc will go up, however the arsenal damage is now split between two bullets so while the chance of 1 proc will be 0.3+0.3-0.3*0.3 = 51%, up from 30%, the chance of getting two procs and therefore 35% of the listed arsenal value is only 9%. So Multishot is good and increases ammo to proc efficiency, but it won't give as much extra bleeding damage as you might think.

9% is double the damage when both procs occur and you still get the additional 21 per cent for at least one proc to occur. I don't see any misconception here, it's obvious that it doesn't do any magick but it does increase the proc damage output considerably. I don't think people actually believe it does any wonders, it's a rather simple thing to simulate in your mind, therefore I would not call that a myth, at least I haven't heard anything like that from other people. Not that I want to argue, I just don't think it's some kind of a myth is all.

Edited July 30, 2019 by DarthKadra

[Lutesque]

I think these myths happen when people ask about Hunter munitions in chat during a tense situation.... so the responses that comes is short and hurried and missing some details....

You actually see slot of that here too.... "I just Grab X and use X bro... Git Gud!!!".... 

[rapt0rman]

1 hour ago, Lutesque said:

This is interesting. WAIT !!!! so.... if you can't get Slash twice then will the game reroll which Status Effect to apply or do you just nothing ? 

I ask because I need to decide what to Roll on my Dread Riven....

You just get nothing. Dread is actually a great candidate for HM, its slash probability is high but not enough to make HM moot.