Frames and weapons you wish would get a nerf

[Cubewano]

12 minutes ago, str4dlin said:

What I say is people say just nerf, nerf, nerf instead of adapt warframes to a cooperative gameplay. If a warframe as DPS, with DPS role, does damage and my Atlas, for example, can't do the same nor close to it is not problem of DPS warframe. Is because Atlas has not spot in the meta-game. Just that. Ask for Atlas changes for being practical or having a role in the meta not nerf other that is made for what he does. 

Or If I say my trinity can't do the damage that Saryn does! I point the weird point of nerfs when this game has not a competitive points and most opinions come from people that does not understand the game at all as cooperative and just compete everywhere they go

And I am who is talking about warframe roles, so dont say I am saying about homogenization because I understand it game as role-based and I enjoy playing eveyone of those.

Nerfing is part of the effort to adapt the game to a more co-operative setting, current power heights do not allows for healthy teamplay, they do not allow for healthy balance, they do no allow for healthy engagement. Our current situation doesn't have room for flexible roles, it only has room for a role, which is why we need to bring down that barrier of entry to a reasonable place where diverse options are well...an option, and that requires to your misfortune, nerfing our highest performers. Otherwise the only other option is to just make that Atlas you mention a nuke just like the other highest performers, because that's the only workable solution without nerfs, and likewise then that would have to be applied to all other under preforming/different role frames until all we have are nukes. There isn't room for diverse things while adhering to our current power scale. Trinity would need to become a dps nuke. Oberon would need to become a dps nuke. Vauban would need to become a dps nuke. It's all very bland and uninteresting, and not at all the direction one should be advocating to go. Reel in the over performers, not redesign the entire game to facilitate them.  (edit: and for all of that teamplay would effective wind up dead as well, the game hardly has room for a single nuke much less the entire games roster being such)

Is there a particular reason you feels it so important to avoid nerfs flat out without consideration for the potential positive impacts they could have? 

 

 

Edited August 3, 2019 by Cubewano

[Loza03]

18 minutes ago, str4dlin said:

I think DEVs should nerf people that ask for a nerf.

Ask for changes, meta adaptations.. etc.. not nerfs. It is not a static game and is based on roles not all warframes are made for the same. They are not champions of league of legends. And it is not a competitive game.

Nerfs are meta adaptations, and when used in the right place very positive ones. And we have a lot of those places in the Warframe meta.

This is because Warframe a game where players are somewhat expected to take on a loose role - many 'meta' frames make that fact utterly irrelevant. Support? Your teammates are immortal. Weapon-based DPS? What's the point, nothing can hurt the objective because nothing can move. CC? Your role is worthless because nukes do that job but better.

 

Some things do need to get nerfed, not because they're powerful (I have 0 issues with the Tigris family or even the Tiberon Prime, for example), but because their power messes up core elements of gameplay. You can't have something that can do everything without weaknesses. The BFG and Chainsaw in Doom 2016 have harshly limited uses, for example - and that's not a competitive game. DMC doesn't just let you spam its strongest moves, they have wind-ups and/or require some other resources. Monster Hunter, too, has all the strongest attacks be the slowest, on weapons that inhibit your movement. Hell, I used to play a game way back when I was a kid called Lego Universe, and believe me, the energy economy was tight by design, with abilities, ranged weapons and the various builds seen throughout the levels (and appearing with reasonable frequency in combat encounters) all requiring the same resource - and that didn't even have PvP.

Just because Warframe isn't a competitive game doesn't mean it can get away with neglecting balance, because sooner or later it will mess up the core gameplay, and from there, the rest of the game, since most of the game is built around the combat.

[str4dlin]

hace 8 minutos, Cubewano dijo:

Nerfing is part of the effort to adapt the game to a more co-operative setting, current power heights do not allows for healthy teamplay, they do not allow for healthy balance, they do no allow for healthy engagement. Our current situation doesn't have room for flexible roles, it only has room for a role, which is why we need to bring down that barrier of entry to a reasonable place where diverse options are well...an option, and that requires to your misfortune, nerfing our highest performers. Otherwise the only other option is to just make that Atlas you mention a nuke just like the other highest performers, because that's the only workable solution without nerfs, and likewise then that would have to be applied to all other under preforming/different role frames until all we have are nukes. There isn't room for diverse things while adhering to our current power scale. Trinity would need to become a dps nuke. Oberon would need to become a dps nuke. Vauban would need to become a dps nuke. It's all very bland and uninteresting, and not at all the direction one should be advocating to go. Reel in the over performers, not redesign the entire game to facilitate them.  

Is there a particular reason you feels it so important to avoid nerfs flat out without consideration for the potential positive impacts they could have? 

Yes, the reason is I love high-end content and people that cry when playing casual ask for nerfs to end-game content warframes. If you nerf a warframe that is made for high level content you kill that part of the game. Here roles are not DPS, Support or healer, here roles are related to content. And most opinions are not coming from people doing arbitration high-rounds or index long time. You know what level are mobs in index after 1 hour? lets bring an ember to eliminate high performance warframes with high dps. For example. Or to arbitration the second hour. 

I remember this game people doing 24 hours of survival, time ago. There is the content I dont want to be eliminated becauuse some casual players cry about damage that a warframe made for that is capable to do. Most of them just dont understand the game as cooperative. I bet.

(Sorry my english I know it is not really good)

Edited August 3, 2019 by str4dlin

[str4dlin]

hace 15 minutos, Loza03 dijo:

Nerfs are meta adaptations, and when used in the right place very positive ones. And we have a lot of those places in the Warframe meta.

This is because Warframe a game where players are somewhat expected to take on a loose role - many 'meta' frames make that fact utterly irrelevant. Support? Your teammates are immortal. Weapon-based DPS? What's the point, nothing can hurt the objective because nothing can move. CC? Your role is worthless because nukes do that job but better.

 

Some things do need to get nerfed, not because they're powerful (I have 0 issues with the Tigris family or even the Tiberon Prime, for example), but because their power messes up core elements of gameplay. You can't have something that can do everything without weaknesses. The BFG and Chainsaw in Doom 2016 have harshly limited uses, for example - and that's not a competitive game. DMC doesn't just let you spam its strongest moves, they have wind-ups and/or require some other resources. Monster Hunter, too, has all the strongest attacks be the slowest, on weapons that inhibit your movement. Hell, I used to play a game way back when I was a kid called Lego Universe, and believe me, the energy economy was tight by design, with abilities, ranged weapons and the various builds seen throughout the levels (and appearing with reasonable frequency in combat encounters) all requiring the same resource - and that didn't even have PvP.

Just because Warframe isn't a competitive game doesn't mean it can get away with neglecting balance, because sooner or later it will mess up the core gameplay, and from there, the rest of the game, since most of the game is built around the combat.

Then bring numbers, skills and we talk, Not opinions or "I was in a sortie and a guy did my game boring". There is the point. And there is what DEVs are worried of I am sure. Bringing new content, new mechanics and giving maintenance to roles. 

Also most of roles lose some sense in some situations, I agree. But well, also people get gear, mods and get equipped. All games have that when you are level 100 and can oneshoot mobs of level 10. That is same in all games. 

If you feel this game is not role based go index 2 hours or do arbitration for many rotations C. We talk after. But of course, I got the same right to go sortie and rush it fast. Because is not the content that I like the most. I just pass it.

Of course maybe, and only maybe, something is out of numbers, but really, doesn't deserve people continuosly ccrying without sense. Mosts of the time because they are mad or they don't understand the game as cooperative. They want to be the best or make the best dps cause they have put 2 mods in the loadout and find someone rushing. Then go the right content to try the right loadout. Or inmortal mechanic doesn't mean you are inmortal depending where you are. Or is basically needed to perform a specific role.. I repeat myself.

Cheers.

Edited August 3, 2019 by str4dlin

[Loza03]

23 minutes ago, str4dlin said:

Then bring numbers, skills and we talk, Not opinions or "I was in a sortie and a guy did my game boring". There is the point. And there is what DEVs are worried of I am sure. Bringing new content, new mechanics and giving maintenance to roles. 

Content that encourages roles is impossible to make without nerfing some stuff.

Nukes, not DPS, nukes, will always overshadow CC. Immortality will always make support irrelevant. Room-wide hard CC will always make movement or survivability obsolete, without their proper limits. This is because they're actively operating within their roles without limits on their power.

DPS characters are supposed to rely on crowd control and support to mitigate incoming damage because whilst they have the ability to deal damage they can't take it and thus are severely weakened if they aren't helped. But if everything's dead to their damage, then it's the only role that's ever needed because they're the most direct way to the goal.  CC is supposed to mitigate and suppress threats to allow a safe area to stage a fight, enabling rather than dominating - but if it does that too well, then everywhere becomes a safe area.

Tanks are supposed to soak up damage for the rest of the team, or to act as core of a greater effort that can provide covering firepower being the most consistent characters - but if they can't die at all then the rest of the team isn't needed because they will win sooner or later because they can't lose. Invisibility/rogues are intended to be the opposite, able to identify and eliminate threats by trading consistent damage and survivability for conditional damage and survability, but if their stealth (and thus survival) has no conditions, then like tanks, they will inevitably win every fight because nothing is going to shoot them.

And Support is supposed to enable all of the above, covering their weaknesses to enhance their strengths. If they all can do it without limit, there is no point.

47 minutes ago, str4dlin said:

Also most of roles lose some sense in some situations, I agree. But well, also people get gear, mods and get equipped. All games have that when you are level 100 and can oneshoot mobs of level 10. That is same in all games. 

If you feel this game is not role based go index 2 hours or do arbitration for many rotations C. We talk after. But of course, I got the same right to go sortie and rush it fast. Because is not the content that I like the most. I just pass it.

Of course maybe, and only maybe, something is out of numbers, but really, doesn't deserve people continuosly ccrying without sense. Mosts of the time because they are mad or they don't understand the game as cooperative. They want to be the best or make the best dps cause they have put 2 mods in the loadout and find someone rushing. Then go the right content to try the right loadout. Or inmortal mechanic doesn't mean you are inmortal depending where you are. Or is basically needed to perform a specific role.. I repeat myself.

I'd recommend looking for one of my posts on page 7 of this thread, where I link several videos of CC and invisibility frames, completely solo, dominating level three hundred to three thousand plus enemies with almost no effort required on their part.

I believe this should be it, please tell me if the link's broken.

No. In its current state, the game is not role based, for as much as it wants to be, because several frames can perform their roles without the limits that make those roles form interesting gameplay. Even the index - Limbo or Gara can make it so the brokers can't ever score. I once accidentally brought a half-ranked Exergis into the index and still won two rounds with ease because I couldn't lose.

 

 

There's this quote that isn't about game design, but fits marvelously into the subject.

Quote

"Every action is seen to fall into one of three main catagories, guarding, hitting or moving.

Here, then, are the elements of combat, whether in war or pugilism."

~ B.H. Liddel Hart

Being too good at immortality or stealth makes guarding irrelevant, because it doesn't benefit you. Being too good at wide-ranging DPS makes hitting irrelevant because it's done for you. Being too good at CC makes moving irrelevant because you're already in an ideal position of being unassailable. And if even one of the three elements of combat are compromised, then the whole thing falls down.

[bibmobello]

The game is broken because you can't release a frame or a weapon without a reason but because you need to sell it.

I have the best tank frame in the game but i can't go further, ok we will develop a frame able to increase his health, armor or dps.(wow that's wisp but wtf need her  with this sub rookie difficulty level?)

There are too many enemies on a such level too hard to defeat with a single melee frame. Ok we will release a frame with low health able to destroy a single army but he needs protection from  other frames. (but no they released frames with high survivability able to destroy levels with 1 button...).

Surely i don't develop a frame able to stop the whole map for how he likes it...

Riven system is a big scam, it should have been able to balance old crappy weapons and instead it's (mainly) good to make good weapons meta weapons(chosen by the partner streamers).

In WF you can go operator and you don't need anything else, you have mass shooter frames with high defensive skills and practically immortal tanks on "normal" levels. i still don't understand why dogs and other animals should not "see" invisible frames.

 

And no nukes don't overshadow CC, take Nova, she is OP, she slows fk down everything or speedup even if you don't like it. SOme missions with Nova are boring as hell she makes the game trivial(more than it was) or a nightmare.

 

 

It's better to remake the whole game...

Edited August 4, 2019 by bibmobello

[FlyingDice]

None. I'd like a comprehensive balance pass to make nuking, CC, tanking, and weapon-focused buffing frames equally viable across the broad swath of extant content.

 

25 minutes ago, bibmobello said:

And no nukes don't overshadow CC, take Nova, she is OP, she slows fk down everything or speedup even if you don't like it. SOme missions with Nova are boring as hell she makes the game trivial(more than it was) or a nightmare.

You don't have the slightest clue what you're talking about. CC hasn't been in-meta for years, and for good reason: almost all non-trivial content has some form of ability cleansing, immunity, or nullification. It used to be that every planned comp would orient around a couple powerful CC frames and sometimes a good defensive or utility frame.

Edited August 4, 2019 by FlyingDice

[bibmobello]

6 minutes ago, FlyingDice said:

None. I'd like a comprehensive balance pass to make nuking, CC, tanking, and weapon-focused buffing frames equally viable across the broad swath of extant content.

 

You don't have the slightest clue what you're talking about. CC hasn't been in-meta for years, and for good reason: almost all non-trivial content has some form of ability cleansing, immunity, or nullification.

"You don't have the slightest clue what you're talking about" wuah mwauh muwah ngh ....

Instead you can kill arbitration drones with mesa or Titania guns...

Anyway you have no idea what you are talking about. bye!

Edited August 4, 2019 by bibmobello

[FlyingDice]

3 minutes ago, bibmobello said:

"You don't have the slightest clue what you're talking about" wuah mwauh muwah ngh ....

Instead you can kill arbitration drones with mesa or Titania guns...

Wow you really are clueless. You just said "nuke frames don't overshadow CC frames", I replied otherwise, and your comeback was... "yeah CC frames are useless in higher level content, just use nuke frames instead".

Christ, dude, I'm embarrassed for you.

I understand, though. If you only started playing in the past year or two you've never known a time where CC was relevant.

Edited August 4, 2019 by FlyingDice

[HugintheCrow]

5 minutes ago, FlyingDice said:

a time where CC was relevant.

*remembers the time when using vauban was some of the most godmode things you could do*

[Cubewano]

7 hours ago, str4dlin said:

Yes, the reason is I love high-end content and people that cry when playing casual ask for nerfs to end-game content warframes. If you nerf a warframe that is made for high level content you kill that part of the game. Here roles are not DPS, Support or healer, here roles are related to content. And most opinions are not coming from people doing arbitration high-rounds or index long time. You know what level are mobs in index after 1 hour? lets bring an ember to eliminate high performance warframes with high dps. For example. Or to arbitration the second hour. 

I remember this game people doing 24 hours of survival, time ago. There is the content I dont want to be eliminated becauuse some casual players cry about damage that a warframe made for that is capable to do. Most of them just dont understand the game as cooperative. I bet.

(Sorry my english I know it is not really good)

Yet you argue in defense of the exact thing that makes acquiring genuine high end content near impossible. Being broken isn't a form of late game behavior, it's the invalidation of it, if your interest is doing high level content and being pushed to your highest point to show your progress as a late game player, being able to completely turn off any form of difficulty growth is not reflective of that interest, which is the state we have arrived at in Warframe. The only thing this level of power allows for in vanity padding, where you think you are elite, or that you are impressive, because you have high stats. The stats aren't used for anything, and content isn't made truly more difficulty by the state we are at, it doesn't enhance gameplay, or create for some more difficulty at a later stage, it just trivializes and makes involvement more skippable. More or less, what we have now makes high end content impossible, as everything is made trivial and in turn easy/casual. 

That said I'm not sure what makes you think content would somehow go away from appropriate rebalancing, index will not close because you can't cheese it, nor will the concept of endless scaling, the closest to a change that would come (ideally) is that you would have to be actually engaged and deal with genuine difficulty after a point to proceed. It would become more trying, but since you seem to be a player vying for high level content that should be exactly what you are looking for, difficult content that requires lots of progression, skill, and knowledge, to overcome. 

Edited August 4, 2019 by Cubewano

[Cubewano]

40 minutes ago, FlyingDice said:

None. I'd like a comprehensive balance pass to make nuking, CC, tanking, and weapon-focused buffing frames equally viable across the broad swath of extant content.

That would require nerfs. Also a balance pass with only the option to raise power potential is just subtle power creep, not an attempt at actual balance. Bringing things down is as much an aspect of balance as is sometimes bringing things up, leaning exclusively to one no matter the condition is the opposite of attempting any semblance of balance. 

[str4dlin]

hace 5 horas, Cubewano dijo:

Yet you argue in defense of the exact thing that makes acquiring genuine high end content near impossible. Being broken isn't a form of late game behavior, it's the invalidation of it, if your interest is doing high level content and being pushed to your highest point to show your progress as a late game player, being able to completely turn off any form of difficulty growth is not reflective of that interest, which is the state we have arrived at in Warframe. The only thing this level of power allows for in vanity padding, where you think you are elite, or that you are impressive, because you have high stats. The stats aren't used for anything, and content isn't made truly more difficulty by the state we are at, it doesn't enhance gameplay, or create for some more difficulty at a later stage, it just trivializes and makes involvement more skippable. More or less, what we have now makes high end content impossible, as everything is made trivial and in turn easy/casual. 

That said I'm not sure what makes you think content would somehow go away from appropriate rebalancing, index will not close because you can't cheese it, nor will the concept of endless scaling, the closest to a change that would come (ideally) is that you would have to be actually engaged and deal with genuine difficulty after a point to proceed. It would become more trying, but since you seem to be a player vying for high level content that should be exactly what you are looking for, difficult content that requires lots of progression, skill, and knowledge, to overcome. 

I agree with you in that point. But then just focus on true opinions with foundation. Not always that someone cries. Because Valkyr was already nerfed, for example, something that made no sense and has left the warframe semi useless. Like Loki, removing his spot in the meta. (Giving some examples).

My opinion is "extreme builds" should exist but require time and get equipped, not for free. And giving the warframe an extreme condition for doing something. I dont think it should be nerfed but I could agree that requeriments were elevated.

And on the other hand we have warframes like Atlas that don't have a hole in the game. I think we should first look at these.

And stop crying please. Especially stop crying and throw unsubstantiated opinions. And I don't mean you in particular.

And for the trashtalker that calling me noob @InfinitePhoenix and calling their friends to upvote the comment. Well. I just ignore because is what you deserve. You are the example of what I refer to. Read all my opinions in this post and point where I say that Saryn is like the others. Continue trashtalking, pro player. Continue crying. We still waiting you to give an opinion founded in something. 

Edited August 4, 2019 by str4dlin

[LascarCapable]

That thread has gone bad.

Closing.