How to Make Warframe Challenging Again, and A Challenge for Top Streamers

[chaotea]

18 minutes ago, bibmobello said:

We don't need support frames anymore but for excavations... And bringing a Volt or Saryn with zero health and shields and 600% strength and range it's not very useful...

But having 3 rhinos that maxed for Iron skin in a defence mission isnt helpful either. As most of the arbitrations rely on killing enemies to win (defence & survival) Those volts and saryns can be very helpful. But I mean more that you can take warframes that arnt just big bags of HP, but support the objective.

[SneakyErvin]

4 hours ago, Klokwerkaos said:

I think this is a good solution for you, but it's not a good solution for everyone.  What you find fun is subjective to you, and it's not necessarily the "correct" way to play.  It's the "correct way to play" for you and you only.

Shouldnt you kinda follow your own advice regarding this? That would have saved us a very pointless and click baity thread. I went in here to actually expect an idea for a real game mode that lets us utilize our progression in a challenging environment. I didnt expect another "dur hur nurf yerself for challinge!" idea.

4 hours ago, Klokwerkaos said:

I think you're forgetting that your definition of fun is not the same as anyone else's, nor is mine.

For the love of all things unholy, atleast use the right word. It would make you look less like a "my idea is right and nobody likes yours!".

The word you are looking for is everyone and not anyone.

[Gabbynaru]

Alright, let me take a page from the Nightwave defenders book:

Go play a different game, stop ruining our fun. Power fantasies have just as much of a right to exist as the torture simulators you're begging for.

10 hours ago, S.Dust said:

this game thrives on the communities lack of aggression towards the devs

Just... screw you! If you think attacking the devs is what we should be doing on this forums... screw you. If you think threatening people over a worthless video game is the right thing to do, then screw you. It's a bloody video game you don't even have to pay for, not a criminal organization. If that somehow offends you to the point you feel like we should be attacking the devs cause they don't give you a release date... sort your life out, you disgusting creature.

[Fenrir121]

All I'm going to say is I could care less about streamers. Don't balance a game around a player who's job it is to play it.

[Iludra]

Main problem I have with your suggestion, and most of similar "difficulty" or "challenge" topics, is that different players see challenge in different ways. To me, Warframe is a planning game. Figuring out most optimal loadout, mod configurations, finding the most fun or powerful synergies between different pieces of equipment - that's where it's at. To me, the challenge doesn't happen in the mission, it happens in my orbiter. I do all this planning so that I can go in and trivialize that mission, that's my reward, that's when I feel the satisfaction. 

You're suggesting to throw away all the enjoyable parts of the game, leaving what exactly?

Yes, the game keeps getting easier the longer you play it - that's the whole point. No game has infinite replayability, and Warframe is no different. 

[(PSN)Double991]

An excellent idea OP although I probably would like to maintain my frames appearance.

I've also often considered making a super tricked out build on the MK1 weapons and going into a mission as a default looking Excalibur just to mess around and see what some of the weakest weapons can really do.

[Klokwerkaos]

2 hours ago, Iludra said:

Main problem I have with your suggestion, and most of similar "difficulty" or "challenge" topics, is that different players see challenge in different ways. To me, Warframe is a planning game. Figuring out most optimal loadout, mod configurations, finding the most fun or powerful synergies between different pieces of equipment - that's where it's at. To me, the challenge doesn't happen in the mission, it happens in my orbiter. I do all this planning so that I can go in and trivialize that mission, that's my reward, that's when I feel the satisfaction. 

You're suggesting to throw away all the enjoyable parts of the game, leaving what exactly?

Yes, the game keeps getting easier the longer you play it - that's the whole point. No game has infinite replayability, and Warframe is no different. 

I think that's a valid point for you.  For vets with every item in the game and highly specialized load outs for every activity there is no planning involved.  The thing you're talking about as "fun" is non existent for a vet player except in one and only one circumstance, which is endless survival which has no appeal except for possible bragging rights.  When you have everything in the game, the game is not about skill or planning, but about knowing what to use, which you already know from experience, and to be honest, going forever in endless survival, the main challenge there is deciding whether or not to wear or diaper so you don't piss your pants, not the skill level of the game.  Essentially anyone with a proper build can manage 5+ hours in survival with the right load out and going 8+ hours is doable, but it's frankly an exercise in masochism in my book since you get no reward worthy of the effort outside of bragging rights, which is, to me, completely not worth it.  Even if you're just doing it for yourself, it's bragging rights to yourself, and that's not really much better.  Frankly anyone is welcome to do this and many people do, but for me, I was happy the first time I hit an hour.  Then I tried it later in the game and got up to five hours and just left because I got bored, so it's not my bag.

To drive my point home, lets take every single nightwave challenge to date.  I never need to plan for any of them, ever.   I know exactly what team composition I need, if I can pug it and carry the whole thing or if I need specific frames with players I can trust not to screw up their job, what gear I want, and how to complete multiple objectives at the same time.  I am not alone in this.  You may not be at that level, but that's OK.  Enjoy the game the way you enjoy it, but there's an old saying "don't someone else's yum".  If it's not for you, that's cool.  No activity is for everyone, some things have broader appeal, and some have more niche, and both are valid.

That said, the planning thing, like I mentioned, goes away... If anything, that's what the whole exercise is designed to do is to take that away, because when you're at that level, the planning is already done.  You already know what you're using and when and how to use it and failure is not a reasonable outcome 99.9999% of the time, only when something dumb happens, like a player with a sudden rad proc one shots the defense objective.  As it stands you don't even need to use "the right" warframe for the job, you can literally use the same one you like for literally all content because you know it so well, and selecting a warframe is more about time efficiency than success, and all that stuff is known quantities at that level as well.  I get that this is your thing, but be ready that the "excitement" you get, will evolve and go away eventually when your load outs become so broken you don't have to think anymore, and it will happen if you play long enough.

I don't mean to be condescending here, but it's hard not to have some of that in there.  It's good to have that excitement and enthusiasm, and we all have it at some point, but it's not something that lasts because it's completely pointless at a certain point.  It's kind of like telling brand new players to buy slots with their plat rather than waste it on cosmetics and colors.  They won't understand until they understand.  Yes, the colors will feel nice immediately, but then you'll be cussing yourself out when you realize "crap, they were right, I should have waited on buying the colors and gotten slots first since slots will make me more MR and Plat faster to get things like other weapons, warframes, and eventually cosmetics".

Also your argument about no game having infinite replayability is a black and white fallacy.  Either it's infinitely replayable or it isn't.  The facts are, many other games are much more engaging at endgame levels and have tons more activities to keep players feeling rewarded that are even less aged as warframe.  The criticism is leveled correctly in that warframe is not good at providing vet players with enough direct engagement. As proof I submit that I am not the first nor will I be the last to come up with dumb assed challenges to amuse myself, there are plenty out there, and I've done everyone I've been able to discover.  You may not see that criticism as being fair depending on where you are in the game, as newer players are often left in shock and awe with how much there is to do... but the well dries up fast, and then the repetition sets in.  And that's when you have to invent new ways to amuse yourself, which is what I did here, and why I thought I'd share.  If you don't like and it doesn't apply to you, that's cool too.

 

Edited August 1, 2019 by Klokwerkaos

[Klokwerkaos]

2 hours ago, (PS4)Double991 said:

An excellent idea OP although I probably would like to maintain my frames appearance.

I've also often considered making a super tricked out build on the MK1 weapons and going into a mission as a default looking Excalibur just to mess around and see what some of the weakest weapons can really do.

6 forma MK 1 braton!

[Klokwerkaos]

4 hours ago, ClapTrap007 said:

Exactly!
They said!...yeah ok..how about we stop talking on what they *said*...and start talking on what they *did* , which is btw...given their record...nothing!
A game that thrives on dreams and promises! This some classy ass bs right here!

I don't think that's entirely fair.  The game is fun for what it is... it just drops off sharp steep and fast.  As a new player it even seems overwhelming with how much there is to do... until you break through the wall some time around MR 12-16, and then it's all "collect junk so I can collect more junk".

I do heavily agree that the "they said..." line is absolutely on point though.  Screw what they said.  They also said we'd have kingpin 5 years ago.  Here we are 5 years later and it's supposedly coming in november and I'm skeptical that if it does that the launch won't be infested with bugs.

Edited August 1, 2019 by Klokwerkaos

[Iludra]

5 minutes ago, Klokwerkaos said:

 For vets with every item in the game and highly specialized load outs for every activity there is no planning involved. 

Right, hence my closing statement. To me, more challenge would mean creating situations where old tricks no longer work - Eidolons were like that for a short while, Profit Taker had hints of it (had to dust off the archwing guns), and I suspect Railjack will bring even more. But yeah, over time, the time you spend planning = time you spend having fun is less and less - that's when you go and find another game. No game can be designed to be eternal.

[Klokwerkaos]

5 hours ago, bibmobello said:

This is not true at all. The main reason they added revives in Arbitrations is that  many  players didn't play it or they died after 5 seconds every time. Now it's easier for leechers to bring low level gear to level up them and if they are the host you will be obliged to revive them...

If you die in under a minute for any mission the solution isn't to burden the team, it's to go up your arsenal until you can manage the content effectively.  The response here was a trash band aid rather than adjusting and addressing the core problem, like always.  What a better response would have been was to better gate the content to people that can actually do it, you know, like a proper endgame thing...

If I had a nickel for every MR 5 I catch in arbitration or ESO with rhino, leeching off the rest of the team...

Edited August 1, 2019 by Klokwerkaos

[Klokwerkaos]

5 minutes ago, Iludra said:

Right, hence my closing statement. To me, more challenge would mean creating situations where old tricks no longer work - Eidolons were like that for a short while, Profit Taker had hints of it (had to dust off the archwing guns), and I suspect Railjack will bring even more. But yeah, over time, the time you spend planning = time you spend having fun is less and less - that's when you go and find another game. No game can be designed to be eternal.

I just came back after an 8 month break where I did play other games.  I was caught up with 8 months of releases in three and a half days, and that's only because I chose to farm stuff and build it rather than just buy it, If I just bought stuff, which I easily could have, I'd be done in a day.  That's a problem with endgame player engagement, and that's my main issue with your argument is you seem to be dismissing that over and over again.

I hate to say it, but I think you just don't understand the experience I and many others have with the game, and that's OK, but it also means you can't really speak to that experience.

Edited August 1, 2019 by Klokwerkaos

[Klokwerkaos]

9 hours ago, FireSegment said:

Hey ... OP clearly say what he meant for this challenge type to do here: 

and to judge on how his propose restraints would success on recreating a MR5 experience for burn out MR27 player, it is kinda solid. 

When you are a MR5, you don't know how mods interact, and even if you do, you probably own it yet. The same goes for guns and frame: don't know which is good or now to mod it, or do not have forma or potato for the good mods. The randomization do recreate that situation. (though i would argue it's a bit too far with the randomizing frame appearance, we only have 3 precious slot @__@ )

The main point is to REACT to what happen in mission with just what you have, without relying on any and all of the OP mods, builds or gear you got too familiar with. It is to recognize again what warframe could offer outside of DPS (cuz a MR27 should already encounter most of it in one way or another). I will say there's nothing "dumb" about this type of play, as the main objective is not to kill enemy, heck it's not even about completing the mission with that random loadout, it is to reconnect to parts of the game that was overshadowed by power creep. (clowning around is optional of course).

Personally i only have less than 5 time doing challenges this type, not exactly with those restraint, but almost all of them brought special feeling that comparable to the first time I ever go to a LoR or JV raid before the community figure out how to beat it, and they remind me of the potential the game have if only it focused in a little different direction.

So to any hater who disregard this without reading,  - It's not for you, keep on enjoying your one-button nuke map fantasy as long as you can. as you still need a feel hundreds of hours or a long enough "content drought" with your personal play style before u can see the merit of these challenge. This is for us who already got there, to remind ourselves that warframe isn't just about using which meta frame to race toward extraction..

 

I think you get what I'm on about.  I'm surprised so many people are so vehemently opposed to the concept, honestly.  

[Klokwerkaos]

4 hours ago, chaotea said:

But having 3 rhinos that maxed for Iron skin in a defence mission isnt helpful either. As most of the arbitrations rely on killing enemies to win (defence & survival) Those volts and saryns can be very helpful. But I mean more that you can take warframes that arnt just big bags of HP, but support the objective.

The most intense arbitration I ever did was with a volt, saryn, octavia and nidus.  I was nidus.  We got several hours in, don't remember exactly how long, something like 3 or 4, it was a while back before the rez changes.  Eventually we inevitably just forgot to hit the life support because we were tired and had to run out.  Bringing tank only frames is only appealing for players that don't have access to everything because it keeps them alive.  When you get to the point where being alive isn't the concern, then you aren't worried about the tank frames.  To be clear, while nidus is a "tank frame" the main reason I brought him was for his 2 CC since it allows for fast group kills and I built him for range.

Volt was there to boost my melee speed and capacitance every so often, mostly melee speed though since my zaw is busted and capacitance is strictly CC at high levels since it doesn't damage for crap at a certain point. octavia kept everyone invisible so they didn't die and redirected their fire to the mallet, and saryn stripped the armor and cleared the trash for the first hour while I cleared all the heavies.  Nobody died.  Our Saryn also had a busted as hell zaw, but she couldn't use it at a certain point because entering melee would mean gas procs that would kill her, but that wasn't until about 1.5 hours, which is longer than most people stay in arb.  Point being, you don't need tank frames for arb, especially if you're bouncing at C.

Edited August 1, 2019 by Klokwerkaos

[DreisterDino]

Going in with random loadouts is fun for a while and i did it for quiet some time, but i would prefer to have gameplay thats challenges me a little even with loadouts i want to play with.

 

Besides that, of course like in every thread that talks about challenge so many forum users only see it in black and white. 😑

My main problem with Warframe is that i am forced to play against lvl 10 enemies over and over again for various reasons.

I dont know any other game that makes you play against the same "tutorial-enemies" over and over again after you played for several hours, learned a lot about the gameplay and got better equipment. But Warframe does exactly this. Edit: This doesnt make me feel like a god!

 

Sometime ago i made a suggestion for a gamemode called the "Nemesis Starchart" which main idea is that you can start missions in Nemesis mode, and at the end of the mission your progress gets saved and the next time you go in you start where you stopped before. If you want to read everything about it check this topic:

 

 

Edited August 1, 2019 by DreisterDino

[(PSN)ErydisTheLucario]

5 hours ago, bibmobello said:

This is not true at all. The main reason they added revives in Arbitrations is that  many  players didn't play it or they died after 5 seconds every time. Now it's easier for leechers to bring low level gear to level up them and if they are the host you will be obliged to revive them...

Lol, just saying that if you're gonna leech off my progress in arbies and expect me to revive you when you are doing next to nothing to help, you got another coming, host or not.

Edited August 1, 2019 by (PS4)ErydisTheLucario

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

16 hours ago, Klokwerkaos said:

How to Make Warframe Fun Again:

 

So I got together with some clan mates last night and we did two experiments for fun in WF and it really actually made the game fun and "a little" challenging.

I will state that the players involved are all MR 27 and have every frame and weapon, sometimes multiple copies of stuff.

Here's Experiment 1:
Daily Sortie, all 3
Random Loadout selected, reroll if you get any A or S Tier items (ie, no zaws/kitguns, no nidus/mesa/etc, any frame you have 5+ forma in is probably a no go, and it shouldn't be your fav frame that you know inside and out). 
All mods are Auto installed, no pre made builds.
No gear wheel or operator except for gravimag weapons (which you will probably need for eximus units).
All colors are random, all attachments are added blindly.
You can use pets but they are random and autoinstalled also.
We did say you can't add a potato if you don't have one, but changed that rule after we won, because basically one of the guys literally couldn't damage the enemies in the eximus survival at all, so next time we'll allow them.

I was proud to say I got a rank 0 dread that had a busted serration mod on it (tears). I also used Nyx, which I don't think I've ever used outside of speed leveling and playing dress up. I ended up relying on my talons because they could actually kill stuff.

Needless to say, it was pretty awesome and we actually failed the lua rescue the first time, and we had to actually use a revive or two and try to pick each other up.

Experiment 2:
Arbitration rotation C
Your warframe and 1 weapon are selected by whatever you get randomly for +300% bonus, but you have to autoinstall both and your gravimag (which again, you will need for eximus units). 
Operators not allowed.
Colors and attachments are random/selected blindly.
all gear wheel allowed, pets can have a build, otherwise they just die all the time.

We did actually fail after 20 min, but we did make it that long and it was a blast.

I strongly recommend people do these things (or similar) to revitalize their warframe experience once in a while because the game is easy enough to do this stuff, and it makes the game fun and challenging for a good minute to sorta remember what it's like to be MR 5 and stuff.

A Challenge for Top Streamers:
Team of Four Top Tier Streamers (first that come to mind are Tactical Potato, iFlynn, A Gay Guy Plays, Brozime, but could be anyone really, though I'd like to call them out specifically 😉 )

Team consists of all four streamers.

Challenges 1 and 2 are completed as a team.  Each for three days (in a row).  Stream lasts as long as it takes the team to complete both challenges.
Nobody should be practicing for the challenges ahead of time or directly coordinating with the other streamers about the project.

Each picks a charity, each gets 2 weeks to promote the event before it happens. 
All revenue from that stream is donated directly to the charity.
Each gets 2 minutes without interruption (alphabetically by channel name) at start to explain why their charity is the best charity and why everyone should donate to it.
Audio includes all team mates for the duration of the stream.

Selection of items and random generation is done on live stream because watching the nonsensical results is half the fun.

Winners are the four charities selected, and also goodwill for the participating streamers and raising awareness of the game through charitable causes.

If it goes well, maybe make it an annual thing during peak content drought.  If it works out even better than something done annually, maybe quarterly with different streamers featured each quarter.

If anyone has access to those streamers, maybe see about directing their eyes to this thread to see if they are interested as I'd really love to see this happen.

 

The proposal is sound, or it would be, if the people moaning about lack of challenge actually wanted a challenge. 

Really though, from what I have seen, most people just want to moan about the lack of challenge unopposed, because that helps them to further their power fantasy. 

[Klokwerkaos]

28 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

 

The proposal is sound, or it would be, if the people moaning about lack of challenge actually wanted a challenge. 

Really though, from what I have seen, most people just want to moan about the lack of challenge unopposed, because that helps them to further their power fantasy. 

I mean, who doesn't love a good power fantasy?  But the problem is that there is no power fantasy if there is no challenge, and that's the state of warframe.  I'm just trying to figure a way to work with the system rather than expect it to change, because that's never really worked out in my years at warframe.

Things sometimes do get fixed... usually 2 years past when they are relevant.  In some cases though, the "fixes" like with arbitrations, and of course, the "Final Solution" with raids, are not exactly things that should be "fixed" that way.

Then of course, there's the gripe about bugs with premium plat cost gear where you pay extra on your $130 prime access bundle to get a cool cosmetic, that is still busted years later... who doesn't love that?

 

Edited August 1, 2019 by Klokwerkaos

[Klokwerkaos]

5 hours ago, Fenrir121 said:

All I'm going to say is I could care less about streamers. Don't balance a game around a player who's job it is to play it.

I think you're kind of missing the point here.

It's not streamers that have a problem with challenge, it's literally the entirety of the old folks that have everything done that want challenge and endgame content.  The whole game doesn't need to be balanced around that though... but something... ANYTHING, would be nice and maybe make the people that have helped pay to keep the lights on at DE for literally years have something to do.  New players already have 3k hours of content.  They don't need anymore.  They are already overwhelmed as it is.  They need a better new player experience... but vets need content.  This isn't even an opinion, it's a straight up factual game design flaw and neglect from DE.

[SkalleBonk]

Another endgame thread?

Edited August 1, 2019 by SkalleBonk

[Renegade343]

17 hours ago, Miser_able said:

What does color and armor choice have to do with anything? 

To see if you can mentally stand your questionable choices in fashion.

[HexxyTheGrouch]

The streamers have to be online broadcasting and not be obnoxious for a whole hour?

/snark

[chaotea]

3 hours ago, Klokwerkaos said:

  Point being, you don't need tank frames for arb, especially if you're bouncing at C.

I think your getting the wrong end of this jumping in at the end of a conversation.

I was saying that the changes to revives were good as they promoted the use of different non-frames. Most people didnt want to take the risk before.

[SneakyErvin]

3 hours ago, Klokwerkaos said:

I just came back after an 8 month break where I did play other games.  I was caught up with 8 months of releases in three and a half days, and that's only because I chose to farm stuff and build it rather than just buy it, If I just bought stuff, which I easily could have, I'd be done in a day.  That's a problem with endgame player engagement, and that's my main issue with your argument is you seem to be dismissing that over and over again.

I hate to say it, but I think you just don't understand the experience I and many others have with the game, and that's OK, but it also means you can't really speak to that experience.

The problem with endgame is that there is no endgame. Eidolons is the only closest thing, everything else has rewards that fit the mid-early game and nothing else.

Endgame content would be something where we take the gear and experience we've gained and actually apply it in a proper way to beat something of challenge/difficulty that brings us endgame rewards to let us continue our progression. That leads to more future content that lets us progress even further and so on. Downgrading yourself and rendering your progression moot does not mean we magically get endgame or challenging content, it just means we take twelve steps back in order to create some illusionary band-aid for something we do not have.

The problem is just that your main idea adds nothing to this. Especially if that charity idea involves DE to create something which would only be used for charity. If your idea is simply to have streamers give their cash to charity it is another thing, but as soon as it involves DE and their resources you directly remove things that could go towards actual endgame content for everyone just to promote a few streamers (of varying quality) and the game/company itself.

[IIDMOII]

Screw streamers. The top ones in particular.

Next question....