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Klokwerkaos

How to Make Warframe Challenging Again, and A Challenge for Top Streamers

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3 hours ago, Klokwerkaos said:

  Point being, you don't need tank frames for arb, especially if you're bouncing at C.

I think your getting the wrong end of this jumping in at the end of a conversation.

I was saying that the changes to revives were good as they promoted the use of different non-frames. Most people didnt want to take the risk before.

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3 hours ago, Klokwerkaos said:

I just came back after an 8 month break where I did play other games.  I was caught up with 8 months of releases in three and a half days, and that's only because I chose to farm stuff and build it rather than just buy it, If I just bought stuff, which I easily could have, I'd be done in a day.  That's a problem with endgame player engagement, and that's my main issue with your argument is you seem to be dismissing that over and over again.

I hate to say it, but I think you just don't understand the experience I and many others have with the game, and that's OK, but it also means you can't really speak to that experience.

The problem with endgame is that there is no endgame. Eidolons is the only closest thing, everything else has rewards that fit the mid-early game and nothing else.

Endgame content would be something where we take the gear and experience we've gained and actually apply it in a proper way to beat something of challenge/difficulty that brings us endgame rewards to let us continue our progression. That leads to more future content that lets us progress even further and so on. Downgrading yourself and rendering your progression moot does not mean we magically get endgame or challenging content, it just means we take twelve steps back in order to create some illusionary band-aid for something we do not have.

The problem is just that your main idea adds nothing to this. Especially if that charity idea involves DE to create something which would only be used for charity. If your idea is simply to have streamers give their cash to charity it is another thing, but as soon as it involves DE and their resources you directly remove things that could go towards actual endgame content for everyone just to promote a few streamers (of varying quality) and the game/company itself.

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Screw streamers. The top ones in particular.

Next question....

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3 hours ago, Klokwerkaos said:

I mean, who doesn't love a good power fantasy?  But the problem is that there is no power fantasy if there is no challenge, and that's the state of warframe.  I'm just trying to figure a way to work with the system rather than expect it to change, because that's never really worked out in my years at warframe.

Things sometimes do get fixed... usually 2 years past when they are relevant.  In some cases though, the "fixes" like with arbitrations, and of course, the "Final Solution" with raids, are not exactly things that should be "fixed" that way.

Then of course, there's the gripe about bugs with premium plat cost gear where you pay extra on your $130 prime access bundle to get a cool cosmetic, that is still busted years later... who doesn't love that?

 

You and I, are in agreement, Tenno. I am currently not anywhere near "I have everything and have done everything", and don't expect to be anytime soon. Like most people who have been around for a while I can probably make it through whatever the star chart throws at us, but I'm still to really master a lot of stuff. And that's fine with me, I know that I can get there in time. 

But yes, at some point I will be like you and know, that the game can't challenge me if I take all of my over-powered gear against it. It's just not reasonable for it to be that unbalanced, as weaker players won't have any chance at all. (As a reminder to those who have forgotten, I have been helping some young newbs and hear them talking about how very powerful their swords are, and how they are doing "almost 200 damage now, look I just killed that guy with one hit!!" while my Rhino's roar is active.) 

 

I proposed something similar to your OP, as a response to one of the whining posts. I had called it, tongue in cheek, something like Strategic Assault; Limited Tactical mode. The immediate responses I got to my proposed SALT Mode, were: "I demand over the top rewards", from people who were previously saying that all they wanted was a challenge; and "I worked hard to become so powerful that nothing could touch me, why should I be forced to give it up", from people who were previously complaining about how nothing in the game could threaten them, even hours into a mission. 

It's a paradox, until you realise that some people think that their power fantasy is real, and have invested heavily in it. Anything that threatens it cannot be allowed to stand. 

 

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5 hours ago, chaotea said:

I think your getting the wrong end of this jumping in at the end of a conversation.

I was saying that the changes to revives were good as they promoted the use of different non-frames. Most people didnt want to take the risk before.

I understand that and respectfully disagree with the reasoning, logic, and changes made.

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5 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

The problem with endgame is that there is no endgame. Eidolons is the only closest thing, everything else has rewards that fit the mid-early game and nothing else.

Endgame content would be something where we take the gear and experience we've gained and actually apply it in a proper way to beat something of challenge/difficulty that brings us endgame rewards to let us continue our progression. That leads to more future content that lets us progress even further and so on. Downgrading yourself and rendering your progression moot does not mean we magically get endgame or challenging content, it just means we take twelve steps back in order to create some illusionary band-aid for something we do not have.

The problem is just that your main idea adds nothing to this. Especially if that charity idea involves DE to create something which would only be used for charity. If your idea is simply to have streamers give their cash to charity it is another thing, but as soon as it involves DE and their resources you directly remove things that could go towards actual endgame content for everyone just to promote a few streamers (of varying quality) and the game/company itself.

I didn't claim this would fix the endgame problem, I stated very clearly what this was for in my post, so you have the wrong impression.

Also at no point did I suggest DE have anything to do with the charity event.  Frankly it would probably be better if they didn't.

 

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

You and I, are in agreement, Tenno. I am currently not anywhere near "I have everything and have done everything", and don't expect to be anytime soon. Like most people who have been around for a while I can probably make it through whatever the star chart throws at us, but I'm still to really master a lot of stuff. And that's fine with me, I know that I can get there in time. 

But yes, at some point I will be like you and know, that the game can't challenge me if I take all of my over-powered gear against it. It's just not reasonable for it to be that unbalanced, as weaker players won't have any chance at all. (As a reminder to those who have forgotten, I have been helping some young newbs and hear them talking about how very powerful their swords are, and how they are doing "almost 200 damage now, look I just killed that guy with one hit!!" while my Rhino's roar is active.) 

 

I proposed something similar to your OP, as a response to one of the whining posts. I had called it, tongue in cheek, something like Strategic Assault; Limited Tactical mode. The immediate responses I got to my proposed SALT Mode, were: "I demand over the top rewards", from people who were previously saying that all they wanted was a challenge; and "I worked hard to become so powerful that nothing could touch me, why should I be forced to give it up", from people who were previously complaining about how nothing in the game could threaten them, even hours into a mission. 

It's a paradox, until you realise that some people think that their power fantasy is real, and have invested heavily in it. Anything that threatens it cannot be allowed to stand. 

 

I mean, I totally understand their feelings... what it means is they are jumping the gun, they want challenge, not for the challenge but to feed the reward cycle, and until they have enough time with their power fantasy where they just go "meh, w/e" they aren't rightly wanting "exclusively" challenge, they are wanting more gameplay loop, being, increased challenge and reward, which from a gameplay perspective, that's a healthy attitude for a player.  If anything, getting to the point where I'm at where you just expect it to be broken forever and DE to never properly fix it  (or if they do, it being too little too late) is far more cynical.  That said, it's impossible for me not to have that attitude when there is so much crucial crap in the game that is bugged for years.

I mean they do actually fix stuff... I know I put together a scathing 1 hour video tearing apart how F'd the dojo's were about a year ago.  Now a year later, about half of that stuff has had a pass on it.  Not exactly the most important parts, but the easiest to fix parts.  And while that's not "great" it's "something".  Frankly crap like I pointed out should be fixed in a weekly patch, we're talking like fixing skins and managing control functions and collision, stuff that is not impossible to manage.

Edited by Klokwerkaos

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9 hours ago, Klokwerkaos said:

I didn't claim this would fix the endgame problem, I stated very clearly what this was for in my post, so you have the wrong impression.

Also at no point did I suggest DE have anything to do with the charity event.  Frankly it would probably be better if they didn't.

 

The title just gave a different impression since the post didnt really clarify it. However, as an optional idea for those that would enjoy it and hand out some charity in the process it seems like a good idea.

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22 hours ago, (PS4)Double991 said:

An excellent idea OP although I probably would like to maintain my frames appearance.

I've also often considered making a super tricked out build on the MK1 weapons and going into a mission as a default looking Excalibur just to mess around and see what some of the weakest weapons can really do.

I put 3 forma and a riven on the Mk1 Braton  just so I could see how far I could take it. Honestly, I think it needs a 4th forma but it handles the star chart just fine and can hang in the lower sorties. Sortie 3 everything becomes the Wolf of Saturn Six lol

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I for one would appreciate and certainly engage in an official "random loadout" challenge of some kind.

I also feel that the concept ties in quite neatly with the other 99,999999% of the game, which basically consists of farming and optimizing gear just for the heck of it. This would give the farm actual meaning, as it would heighten the chances of getting something worthile, while also promoting trying and fleshing out non-meta gear.

I salute the OPs effort to think of ideas how to make the game more challenging within its current confines (despite the fact (as he probably knows) i'd much rather see game balance fixed universally at the core... but yeah, that's most probably out of the question anyway).

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On 2019-07-31 at 6:06 PM, Miser_able said:

What does color and armor choice have to do with anything? 

Fashionframe is end-game, duh. Or are you still a stock color palette noobie?

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Honestly, I'd be fine with some more scrpited gameplay that actually requires you to do more than just roflstomp through tilesets. I want some challenge as well, some endgames that requires optimizing your gear while advancing tactically.

The thing is: Yes, you can play WF for some csual fun and the power fantasy. But the WF's and weapons this game give us offer so mmuch more than just that. There is much unused potential.

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We can oneshot tiles, ignore enemies while skipping entire levels, while at the same time very few things scale endlessly and the only way to find content you can sink your teeth into and chew on is to take the few frames/weapons that do scale and be bored in mot for 3 hours and you think people want to stream that? Sorry but this is what happens when you treat a horde shooter like a lootershooter, looks great to new players but vets like those streamers you mentioned?... the bones have been stripped clean and all the band aid challenges in the world wont fix it. 

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

The title just gave a different impression since the post didnt really clarify it. However, as an optional idea for those that would enjoy it and hand out some charity in the process it seems like a good idea.

I see that several people interpreted it that way, however, i do also see many people who didn't, and also pointed out in another post I was clear in my original post what my intentions were.  I assure you however, the title wasn't intentionally deceptive, though perhaps I could have communicated it better.

Edited by Klokwerkaos

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We could limit the player or...

we shift the problem from enemy scaling and focus on more enemy variety that require disciplined mechanical skill and knowledge to defeat other than by just doing enough raw damage to one shot everything 

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On 2019-08-01 at 3:10 AM, DeathDweller said:

How does crippling the gameplay make a game fun?There is no skill involved in Warframes core to begin with, so in the end this would be something like a personal challenge not an improvement or something different.

+1

On 2019-08-01 at 3:15 AM, (PS4)Kakurine2 said:

 

If i'm in the mood ill pop in and crack skulls for laughs.  I'm not hardcore I dont use games as an ego boost

+1

On 2019-08-01 at 4:37 AM, Klokwerkaos said:

The fact that you stated you won't read it, shows how clearly you missed the entire point.  But hey, you do you.

I mean... I don't agree with anything you said in your OP.... but I do agree with this....  that dude just came to troll you... 

 

On 2019-08-01 at 5:34 AM, AcceI said:

I believe the lesser of two evils would be to just invest some time finding another game

Indeed +1

 

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Posted (edited)
19 minutes ago, (PS4)CodyXSavageX said:

We could limit the player or...

we shift the problem from enemy scaling and focus on more enemy variety that require disciplined mechanical skill and knowledge to defeat other than by just doing enough raw damage to one shot everything 

We could do that, or DE could do that?

And when exactly is the timeline for that?  Looking at my calendar I'm thinking some time the second tuesday after never.  My expectations bar is very low after years of content drought.  You could even say my expectations are so low I've been forced to make my own fun distractions about how much of a joke the content is.

Edited by Klokwerkaos

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On 2019-08-02 at 2:45 AM, Klokwerkaos said:

I understand that and respectfully disagree with the reasoning, logic, and changes made.

Yet you agreed with everything I was saying.

By getting the wrong end, i ment you were arguing for the point I made, but seemed to think that I was opposing that view.

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On 2019-07-31 at 7:06 PM, S.Dust said:

Dont even have to read the post to say nothing you say will be considered or done this game thrives on the communities lack of aggression towards the devs, thats why we dont get release dates, thats why we wait all year for content that last a week, and thats why there is never anything to do but hey someone here is gonna go off about how im entitled and should be gratefull and that the devs are taking their time and dont want to release a unfinished mess. Im not gonna argue with anyone just gonna say nothing will make this game challenging because no one is forcing the devs to make it so. They get more attention from hyping people up than they do the actual game play releases anyways.

being aggressive towards the devs won't speed up release dates.

As much as I think OP's idea is stupid. Telling people to go be mad at the devs doesn't accomplish anything.

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10 hours ago, stormy505 said:

being aggressive towards the devs won't speed up release dates.

As much as I think OP's idea is stupid. Telling people to go be mad at the devs doesn't accomplish anything.

Aggressive isnt the word I wanted I honestly just couldnt think of the word I wanted the point is the community is docile and lets them get away with everything, Im not saying riot in the streets just saying more people should call them out when they take two years to release something or do something wrong. I feel like more of the community is willing to sit and call it a day rather than actually say anything and when people do there is just an army of people waiting to defend the devs. 

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On 2019-08-01 at 7:09 PM, Klokwerkaos said:

I don't think that's entirely fair.  The game is fun for what it is... it just drops off sharp steep and fast.  As a new player it even seems overwhelming with how much there is to do... until you break through the wall some time around MR 12-16, and then it's all "collect junk so I can collect more junk".

I do heavily agree that the "they said..." line is absolutely on point though.  Screw what they said.  They also said we'd have kingpin 5 years ago.  Here we are 5 years later and it's supposedly coming in november and I'm skeptical that if it does that the launch won't be infested with bugs.

Yea ok I agree, I mean there is a reason why I got excited and kept playing the game for a few months, so it is fun for what it is, as you said! The problem is that they are thriving on this experience! This hype of being really into a game (while you are still progressing through it). But then you hit a brick wall when you get to the "collect junk so I can collect more junk" part. And nothing ever chanegs from then on! No challenge, therefore no rewards! The super funny thing here is that I don't have a problem (and I'm sure most of us that want some sustainable content for the game) with the people that like killing lvl 20s and like collecting teddy bears or whatever their name was (floofs?)! If they have fun by doing that then hell yeah, go for it by all means! (the same reason why I don't diss or disrespect people that play vs AI in MOBAs for example, if that's how they have fun then so be it, who am I to tell em how to have fun). But these same people (I'm back to WF) have a problem with us for wanting endgame and challenges and better rewards! This is not how the laws of equivalent exchange work XD!!!!! I mean..if these people are just fine with collecting stuff, why is there a problem with me wanting hard content and good rewards for my efforts? It's super hypocritical! It's not enough for them to be happy with what they have...other people have to be miserable and only then will they be satisfied completely! Whatcha gonna do, life is not fair, evil prevails most of the time!
Now in regards to the buggs when the railjack thing comes out - yeah I mean it's annoying AF but it's kinda understandable for me atleast! I don't have much of an issue with that in particular since it's just a thing that can get patched in no time! The problem will be..and I'm firmly saying WILL be is that the mode is gonna be dead in 2 weeks tops for these reasons:
1)gameplay looks pretty meh tbh, nothing that interesting or challenging (also when in a party I don't see anyone wanting to pilot the ship)

2)bad rewards -> unless the game is challenging we will never get decent rewards, now don't get me wrong but the demo was ugh XD they did not use half of the game's mechanics(rolling,parkouring,wall jumping, etc), they did not use more than half of each frame's abilities and still destroyed the mission ez pz! ...irronoo maaan...looks kinda ga :D..I mean boring!
3)Kuva Lich looks like any other boss. Need I say more? (invulnerable -> take down shields/invulnerability -> proceed to one shot him)
What can I say...I'll give it a try I suppose cuz I'll prolly need to build a ship for the upcomming New War Quest which I'll hopefully enjoy and then go back to hibernation mode for when the next update drops so I can see what's up for a couple of days (or even hours, like the Jovian Concord was :D)

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Streamers are a special interest group and should not be catered to anymore more than they are.  

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