Forma Increasing a Weapons Stats.

[Fenrir121]

Just what it says on the tin. Now I don't mean making a weapon overpowered, obviously there'd have to be a balance and a diminishing return on the effect. It could be as little as a .5 increase. However there are a lot of weapons in Warframe and only about ten that are good (hyperbole). I'd like to have a reason to pull some of my old weapons out of the dust and use them again. As it stands now some weapons are completely worthless at higher level difficulties and you're locked into certain set ups, which for a game with this much customization seems a bit like a slap in the face. I know there are Rivens, but that doesn't exactly hit the spot and its so RNG its not even funny (yes I'm aware you can trade them).

Anyway that's just my two cents. I'm not a dev or anything so I may be ignorant to the challenges this presents, just think it would be a nice feature that would give me something to do with my time.

[(PSN)NewcastleDisease]

you see a real problem (massiv underpowered weapons), but i don't think that your way is right.

also there a plenty of weapons which are useless for most but useful for a few.

for example Daikyu, which i love to use. a bow which is silent and get so massiv damage, espacially over 15m away (right modded). i do not see many of them arround.

beside that fact, there you have another problem: if you increase a stat by whatever percent... which one? what benefit one will disable another loadout.

so i think: right problem, wrong solution 🙂

Edited August 1, 2019 by (PS4)NewcastleDisease
typo

[Fenrir121]

You haven't actually pointed out anything wrong with it. As I said I'm not a dev, it would have to be balanced so obviously it wouldn't be a one size all for every weapon, as previously mentioned. There's nothing wrong with the concept functionally, it just needs more work than it appears at first glance.

[Chewarette]

There is no possible balancing with what you're proposing. Either the bonus sucks arse and you'll need 200 formas to see the difference, or it's insanely overpowered.

You decently can't expect DE to create something like that, even more if your only solution to the glaring balance issue is to apply a different parameter for each of the 400 weapons and warframes.

Formas so far are already giving you bonus stats by allowing you to slot more / more powerful mods. Don't ask more powercreep on Formas.

Edited August 1, 2019 by Chewarette

[Fenrir121]

7 minutes ago, Chewarette said:

There is no possible balancing with what you're proposing. Either the bonus sucks arse and you'll need 200 formas to see the difference, or it's insanely overpowered.

You decently can't expect DE to create something like that, even more if your only solution to the glaring balance issue is to apply a different parameter for each of the 400 weapons and warframes.

I can actually expect that lol. All of the numerical values for every weapon and warframe had to be intially calculated in the first place and when a game runs as long as this one has re-balancing is almost always required.Each boost would have to be balanced for each weapon. Moreover this is more about older weapons that are almost never used as compared to recent ones. You're acting like a bit of math is a large undertaking. Would it take time? Yes. Would it be that difficult? No.

If the attitude "Well we just have to many things to do anything with them" was actually taken a very large amount of games would suffer. Everyone spends time and resources to acquire these weapons, level them, and use them, and its a bit much to expect everyone to be ok with shelving them forever after.

Edited August 1, 2019 by Fenrir121

[Alcatraz]

Why would you possibly need to add .5 capacity to any weapon at all? I've got up to 7 forma weapons and I can manage fitting every single thing in it that I want to with that many forma. 7 because some weapons don't have any polarities so I have to add, to be able to fit in primed mods, regular but large capacity mods, and Riven if I own one for the weapon, and have a bit of capacity left over.

Yes I could see where after 7 forma you could have half of that in extra capacity, but that'd be completely useless and beyond putting in the required amount of forma to fit all your mods, there would be no reason to put in another 10 forma, just to get enough capacity in a weapon to come up high enough to not need the forma you just wasted in it.

Sometimes all you do need is 1 capacity more and if it added .5 for each like you said, If you had 2 forma in and was 1 capacity short, you'd be set with this idea, I can give you that. But most builds take 3-5 forma as it is.

In the end, it would be minuscule where it'd work.

Edited August 1, 2019 by Alcatraz

[Fenrir121]

I meant more that you would select a forma to use simply for stats instead of capacity and the .5 was simply an example number, as mentioned in the OP it would have to be balanced.

[Giantconch]

I'll attempt to highlight what I see as the issues with this idea.

 

So, say the idea does go through. A forma now increases X stats by X amount.

 

This suggested change would likely apply to almost all weapons, not just a select number of "bottom tier" (and DE being DE, it would just be the least used weapons considered bottom tier, which would get adjusted as those weapons became more used, so for simplicity sake, all weapons get the change, perhaps at best ignoring the top 5-10% most used weapons)

 

So, good work, the bottom tier weapons can now get their stats boosted, BUT, so can the nearly top tier. The different in weapon strength is unchanged, and now we've got even more power creep, with the only counter being even more armor and power-nullifying to try and balance things out.

 

As well, now those almost top tier weapons get to become the most used, and how would DE go about fixing that? Removing the ability to forma those weapons to increase their strength, leaving anyone who didnt jump on that bandwagon in the dust with weapons that can never be as good as the ones people who did jump on the bandwagon have.

 

Even if one was to take the time and go through every single weapon, and make it so a forma would adjust and increase its stats accordingly with the strength of the weapon, at that point why not just flat out buff all of these weapons to bring them more in line with top tier gear?

 

**Hopefully it's clear where I'm coming from in this, re-reading it I want to make a ton of edits but eh, you're probably halfway through responding so I'll save that headache

Edited August 1, 2019 by Giantconch

[Fenrir121]

You could do that too, just a straight buff, and I've no problem with them buffing lower tier weapons. Yes for this to work properly nearly everyone weapon would have to be balanced for how affected by forma it would be. It was simply a suggestion to bring in a way to keep a weapon you personally might love to a level that you could actually use it.

The only problem with a straight buff is that the power creep isn't going anywhere. So if there's no way to upgrade a lower powered weapon its eventually going to be outdated again.

Edited August 1, 2019 by Fenrir121

[Giantconch]

Just now, Fenrir121 said:

You could do that too, just a straight buff, and I've no problem with them buffing lower tier weapons. Yes for this to work properly nearly everyone weapon would have to be balanced for how affected by forma it would be. It was simply a suggestion to bring in a way to keep a weapon you personally might love to a level that you could actually use it.

 

Fair'nuff!

 

I dont know about the Forma idea, but I would like to see every 3 months or so maybe DE could take a look at the bottom 5% of used weapons, something that isnt creating an epic work load that holds up other features and fixes, and gives that bottom few % of weapons a nice little stat increase.

 

...except Seer. Screw that thing.

[Fenrir121]

Lol. I mean it might be a flawed idea really, I obviously haven't done the math for it and neither has anyone else. I just want to use more of the 200+ weapons there are.

[(PSN)boilerhogbc]

Remember, rivens are loot boxes.  Please refer to them as such.

[Giantconch]

18 minutes ago, Fenrir121 said:

Lol. I mean it might be a flawed idea really, I obviously haven't done the math for it and neither has anyone else. I just want to use more of the 200+ weapons there are.

 

Preaching to the choir man...

 

 

[Tiltskillet]

I've had a similar desire to improve lower tier weapons outside of the riven system.   The basic idea behind it would be increasing the MR of weapons for non-random basic stat increases.  Ideally, there'd be a real, logical model in place where this new mutable MR  would roughly correspond to actual power in the same weapon class.  For example, a Boar upgraded from MR 2 to MR 7 would be roughly comparable in DPS to a Sobek.*  

There'd be a cap to increasing this rank, which would be equal to  or one step more than the highest MR weapons currently in the game...and perhaps that MR +1 for an advanced variant like a Prime.  So a Lato could be brought up all the way to MR 15 or 16, and an Aklex Prime could only be ranked up once or twice at the most.    Additionally, the cost would go up progressively between rankings.  Perhaps ranking up a Sicarus Prime once to MR 15 would cost as much as ranking up the Lato all the way to MR 14.

I don't know what the cost mechanic would be, but I don't think it would or should be tied to forma.  Almost certainly a new resource or resources, although it's easy to imagine it involving an affinity/focus sink on top of that.

It also wouldn't have to be tied to MR--it's just that that system is already in place, visible,  and being used as a balancing mechanic--as flawed as it is.  It could be an "ilvl", only corresponding to MR at base, and not requiring players to rank up their own mastery.

*  _{We know DE is trying to make MR correspond to power level, but how much of it is a model versus trying to hand tune everything is a mystery to me. If there isn't a model, they really should develop one as it would be very helpful for streamlining balancing even if  something like this proposal never happens. If there is a comprehensive model...it probably needs some improvements.} 😛

[WhiteMarker]

3 hours ago, Fenrir121 said:

However there are a lot of weapons in Warframe and only about ten that are good (hyperbole). I'd like to have a reason to pull some of my old weapons out of the dust and use them again

But your suggestion won't make you use the bad stuff. You will just keep on using the good stuff.
If a good weapons gets 10 points of damage more, and a bad weapon gets the same 10 points of damage, then the good weapon is still way better than the bad one.
If you have no interest in the weapons right now, you won't have any interest in them even if they got buffed slightly. I mean, Rivens already do what you are suggesting. But people keep on using the meta, because it's the meta.

And let's be real here: More power is the last thing we need...

[(XBOX)KayAitch]

How about Stat Forma - like Umbra Forma this would be rare, event/nightwave locked stuff. Nobody's getting more than about 1 of these per 4 months.

Stat Forma would let you boost 1 stat and then re-level the weapon. You could pick the stat, but the amount is % of the base - this keeps the weapon personality (and stops meme builds like high crit % Nukor and the like).

Some balancing would be required, but 10% seems reasonable (though it might need to be higher for stats like reload and lower for crit or status %)

However, this would also add +1 MR to the weapon's requirement, and if that's more than your current MR you can't apply it.

This would create a small incentive to rank MR, keep weapons at a power level appropriate to their MR, but godlike weapons would be hard to create.

So, take an MR4 weapon, but 4 Stat Forma on it, the result would be about MR8 with comparable stats. You could also take an MR14 weapon and make it MR18, but that's over a year invested in one weapon.

[(PSN)caffinated_flame]

It doesn't change anything the top tier weapons would just become more op

Although I would definitely like to see a method that improves weapon stat that more viable(not rivens)

[Fenrir121]

19 minutes ago, (PS4)caffinated_flame said:

It doesn't change anything the top tier weapons would just become more op

Although I would definitely like to see a method that improves weapon stat that more viable(not rivens)

 

32 minutes ago, WhiteMarker said:

But your suggestion won't make you use the bad stuff. You will just keep on using the good stuff.
If a good weapons gets 10 points of damage more, and a bad weapon gets the same 10 points of damage, then the good weapon is still way better than the bad one.
If you have no interest in the weapons right now, you won't have any interest in them even if they got buffed slightly. I mean, Rivens already do what you are suggesting. But people keep on using the meta, because it's the meta.

And let's be real here: More power is the last thing we need...

Again, in the OP, I've said this would need to be balanced with diminishing returns. Meaning the more powerful the weapon the less it would benefit.

[(PSN)caffinated_flame]

3 minutes ago, Fenrir121 said:

 

Again, in the OP, I've said this would need to be balanced with diminishing returns. Meaning the more powerful the weapon the less it would benefit.

How do they determine which weapons are more powerful, objectively we can say kitguns and zaws are the most powerful weapons, what bout all the ones between the zaws and the fang

Would it be based on popularity, which would result in another riven situation where everyone something changes you would av loads of people complaining after investing loads of resources into one weapon

[Fenrir121]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)caffinated_flame said:

How do they determine which weapons are more powerful, objectively we can say kitguns and zaws are the most powerful weapons, what bout all the ones between the zaws and the fang

Would it be based on popularity, which would result in another riven situation where everyone something changes you would av loads of people complaining after investing loads of resources into one weapon

Every weapon has a numerical value? I don't understand where you're even coming from with this comment. Weapons have quantifiable stats.

[(XBOX)KayAitch]

6 minutes ago, (PS4)caffinated_flame said:

How do they determine which weapons are more powerful, objectively we can say kitguns and zaws are the most powerful weapons, what bout all the ones between the zaws and the fang

MR is decided by average DPS with the base stats, with exceptions for modular, reward weapons and some legacy stuff (like the Aklex Prime being MR15 with MR9 DPS).

Also, by about MR8 most weapons are at the point where mods can take them over for some stat or other (red crits, multishot 100% status, etc).

You can still see that MR8 was the max rank when they designed the game.

[(PSN)caffinated_flame]

36 minutes ago, Fenrir121 said:

Every weapon has a numerical value? I don't understand where you're even coming from with this comment. Weapons have quantifiable stats.

Lot of weapons in the game have similar stat but there performance are different due to their usability. For example with melee weapon pole arms/heavy blade seem to be the most used in the game despite the fact that on paper they have similar stat most other melee, they out perform most others because they av better stance and range.

So would stuff like stance be taken account of when determining the most powerful.

PS - I obviously dont have stat on most used weapons in the game this if just from my observation from day to day gaming.

[Fenrir121]

Just now, (PS4)caffinated_flame said:

Lot of weapons in the game have similar stat but there performance are different due to their usability. For example with melee weapon pole arms/heavy blade seem to be the most used in the game despite the fact that on paper they have similar stat most other melee, they out perform most others because they av better stance and range.

So would stuff like stance be taken account of when determining the most powerful.

PS - I obviously dont have stat on most used weapons in the game this if just from my observation from day to day gaming.

This has nothing to do with adding a diminishing bonus to any weapon. They all have quantifiable stats.

[(PSN)caffinated_flame]

15 minutes ago, Fenrir121 said:

This has nothing to do with adding a diminishing bonus to any weapon. They all have quantifiable stats.

The point I was trying to to make is paper stat doesn't necessarily translate to how powerful a weapons is.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

How bout no.