Can something be done about Saryn?

[Cubewano]

12 minutes ago, (PS4)NewcastleDisease said:

you don't really get what i have written.

co-op is just perfekt with Saryn. Yes, you will kill the entiry map on low level with her abilities. but you get here Blueprint on SEDNA. this is lvl 30-40. a normal mod Saryn on lvl 30-40 will make your enemies weaker, which it is why she is actually a great frame for co-op. you can use here 1 to help friends, your 2 to draw attention from them, your 3 to ohave some meele fun, and her 4 to support your squad if to many enemies spawn.

kill entire map on all starcharts levels, and even sorties, and higher, with minimal effort. she clears rooms, that's all, if her one was more tame maybe she'd be more like you are describing her, an active participant in teamplay rather than an oppressive dominating force, but that's just not reality, and I believe you actually know that deep down. 

19 minutes ago, (PS4)NewcastleDisease said:

again: yes you can make her a killing frame for almost all lvl with the right mod. but you can do the same with eqinox which kills everything on the map with his aura, or a banshee, with her sound quake. just to get some examples. no one complain about them, but saryn is the bad frame? why?

saryn has more ease of use, and is just a more regularly used frame overall, which is why she draws more attention would be my broad conclusion. for this topic in specific, the op is new, so that's their defense. not sure why either matter for our conversation however to be honest. 

19 minutes ago, (PS4)NewcastleDisease said:

aaand again: it is not game balancing to just cut off every frame. it is not healthier in co-op to just have frames which can't do mass control. it will just cut frame off there abilities. but thats what make them unique. saryn as EVERY other frame has to be played right to get use out of here potential. this has nothing to do with balancing. Or do you want also nerf all Weapons which has a high damage, just because new players do not have the same powerful weapons? And the mods which make them so.

good thing i'm not arguing to cut off every frame. and history would speak to the contrary on map clear, there wasn't remotely as many topics and controversies and just general unrest over game balance before all this aoe clear arrived. it seems it created more division than anything. i also think we have plenty of great, enjoyable, and unique frames outside of a handful of nukes so not sure how founded concerns on that matter are either. i'd also agree to disagree on how precision based saryn is for the return on power she gives, she does a lot more for a lot less than most frames, so much so that an entire category of play is now considered worthless by comparison. and i suppose we could nerf some weapons as well, though not for the reasons you've listed, they're not even any of my talking points. 

19 minutes ago, (PS4)NewcastleDisease said:

or to make another example: Limbo. I HATE TO PLAY WITH LIMBO. why? because i get in his buble and can't hit enemies or farm loot in it. so i have to wait or go out. every time. 20-60 times on a defense with a Limbo. THIS is annoying. But i don't say: hey, cripple Limbo, make his best Power unusable because it s?%ks. I just do not play with Limbo Players. Why? Because Limbo Players like the way they play. I don't so i let them do.

and that all comes at a cost to you, and while maybe you're fine making that choice it doesn't mean anyone else has to be. people can be different like that. 

19 minutes ago, (PS4)NewcastleDisease said:

But you want to restrict Players just because.

 from the above it sounds like you're getting restricted.

[DeMonkey]

2 minutes ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

I am seeing from their perspective.

You aren't, and I must stress how important I believe it to be that you do.

You're still seeing this from the point of view of a veteran player, as displayed by your post.

4 minutes ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

And that somehow isn't the most selfish thing you have ever heard? Just because someone finds a certain playstyle boring

Not even slightly, because again, you're not seeing it from their perspective. They aren't complaining about the Saryn's playstyle, necessarily, but rather the complete lack of playstyle on their end.

If you are unable to take part in a mission then you have no playstyle, and that is absolutely worth complaining about.

10 minutes ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

And yes he is failing to see the point in being powerful as that is the kind of build you can get once you reach the level of veteran.

That's your point. For some people power is the point of the game, where clicking a button and killing an army is the greatest thrill there is. Please don't be so narrow minded as to believe that this is the only point however, because for others that's utterly boring and goes against the very reason they play video games. Your reason for playing and getting powerful is not the only one that matters.

12 minutes ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

If you or indeed the OP truly think like that, then it's pretty laughable. By this logic, why is everyone not using Saryn? Why isn't everyone not using Inaros? I mean if all you need is either of those two, then why are people not running around with them all the time.

It is not, because once again you are failing to see this from a new players perspective, it is new player logic and you are completely failing to see it that way. What else are they supposed to think upon seeing a map cleared with a flick of the wrist beyond "whats the point in using anything else"?

The entire game revolves around killing things, DPS is obviously king, so if you're new and see a DPS frame that DPS's so hard that no one else gets to play, you're obviously going to think "what's the point in using anything else?". Hell, I wouldn't blame them for thinking, "what's the point in me even being here?", which evidently they did, hence the cup of tea.

16 minutes ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

And so can a lot of other frames/weapons in the hands of players who know what they are doing. So it's not a misrepresentation of their argument at all, which is what you are trying to claim. A Mesa in the right hands can kill everything. An Equinox in the right hands can kill everything. An Excalibur in the right hands can kill everything. A lot of frames in this game have the potential to wipe maps clean. The fact this player immediately labels Saryn as OP clearly shows that he will not be having a very good time in the long run.

So my examples do count and are valid. Calling them a "Straw-man" is dishonest.

No, they don't, because that's not why they're strawmen. 

You've made explaining this far more complicated that it needs to be, and honestly I don't know if this'll actually get through but I'll give it a try.

OP complains about 'X' because it invalidated their role in the mission and caused them an unenjoyable mission. It doesn't matter that they used Saryn in their OP, their complaint is about the fact that they couldn't do anything, and thus is applicable to any frame or weapon that invalidates their role in the mission.

Your responses:

"Wow that gun kills loads of enemies in one shot, but my unmodded MK-Braton can't even kill one in good time. That makes me bored. Nerf it"

"Wow that polearm can sepreate an entire platoon from their bottom halves while my unmodded Skana can't even open a tin-can. I'm bored again. Nerf it."

Are strawmen, as they are complaints about item 'x' being better than their newbie item 'y'.

That is not the argument that the OP has presented, as a reminder the OP's argument is "Item 'x' invalidated my role in the mission by leaving me nothing to do, this is a bad thing", and thus by fabricating said arguments and ridiculing them you have created a strawman.

32 minutes ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

And like I said, there are plenty of frames and weapons that can do what Saryn does but in different flavours. Say for example, if MrRixter was in a mission with Equinox. He'd still likely complain because she kills everything with her Maim, if not initially, then with her AOE blast. Or perhaps your own Monkey. What if he gets annoyed by how much range Primal Fury has and how much damage it can do? You're zipping around killing things and he's just grumbling. If this was a post about Wukong, I have no doubt you'd not be on the OP's side. And before you say "It's not about Wukong though, it's Saryn" bear in mind that exposes your bias/hypocrisy.

It does not, because by saying "It's not about Wukong, it's Saryn" I'm dismissing your hypothetical scenario as nothing more than... well, hypothetical. I'll wait until there's an actual thread about Wukong's staff being overpowered and ruining the game for someone before commenting on such a scenario.

You're not going to be able to refute my points by trying to twist this into an irrelevant hypothetical argument designed to expose "bias". That just won't fly, and I strongly suggest you rethink such tactics in the future.

37 minutes ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

You do know that moving to another room makes enemies spawn in said room, so there is always enemies avaliable.

You're suggesting that a player who is new to the game should know better than to actually play the objective, and should, in the interest of actually enjoying themself, run away from whatever objective they actually have to perform? It's genius.

Once again you are not seeing this from a new player perspective. This is advertised as a co-operative shooter. The idea that you have to actually run away from your teammates in order to actually do anything is completely counter intuitive to anyone joining the game and believing it's a co-operative shooter. Which is everyone btw, if anyone has ever joined this game thinking it's a single player game I'll eat your hat.

38 minutes ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

The ironic thing you are making a very strong case against getting powerful mods or maxing out your builds at all since there is no point if new players come in and are not happy with them, since they have the capability to nuke enemies.

There's nothing ironic in that. Irony doesn't really come into this.

I'm strongly strongly suggesting you reevaluate how you're perceiving this, because your response shows that you're seeing it 100% from the eyes of a veteran player, not a new player.

[(PSN)NewcastleDisease]

vor einer Stunde schrieb Cubewano:

kill entire map on all starcharts levels, and even sorties, and higher, with minimal effort. she clears rooms, that's all, if her one was more tame maybe she'd be more like you are describing her, an active participant in teamplay rather than an oppressive dominating force, but that's just not reality, and I believe you actually know that deep down. 

thats just not correct. i play her for over a year now and know what i'm talking about.

(my build is no nuke - i build her for melee, support and speed)

 

Zitat

saryn has more ease of use, and is just a more regularly used frame overall, which is why she draws more attention would be my broad conclusion. for this topic in specific, the op is new, so that's their defense. not sure why either matter for our conversation however to be honest. 

again: not true. to make her the nuke all frame you see her you have to forma her several times, you have to get the right arcanas, to get the right mods, you have to max the mods which will cost a massive amount of endo and credits. and you have to be lucky to get what you need to do this all. just because the op firstly saw a max. build nuke saryn don't make it better that he blame the frame, the player and want to nerf a great frame to fit his level.

but the base Saryn is a great attack supporter - and whatever you say, it will not make it more or less true. 

 

Zitat

good thing i'm not arguing to cut off every frame. and history would speak to the contrary on map clear, there wasn't remotely as many topics and controversies and just general unrest over game balance before all this aoe clear arrived. it seems it created more division than anything. i also think we have plenty of great, enjoyable, and unique frames outside of a handful of nukes so not sure how founded concerns on that matter are either. i'd also agree to disagree on how precision based saryn is for the return on power she gives, she does a lot more for a lot less than most frames, so much so that an entire category of play is now considered worthless by comparison. and i suppose we could nerf some weapons as well, though not for the reasons you've listed, they're not even any of my talking points. 

and that all comes at a cost to you, and while maybe you're fine making that choice it doesn't mean anyone else has to be. people can be different like that. 

 from the above it sounds like you're getting restricted.

you're argument say exactly that. if we have to nerf all frames which are overpowered if you mod them right you have to restrict:

Ash

Banshee

Chroma

Equinox

Excal

Frost

Hydroid

Inaros

Limbo

Mesa

Nekros

Nova

Nyx

Octavia

Revenant

Volt

just to get the first ones which come to my mind - with every of that frame i can make a build which does the same or more damage than saryn does.

and for weapons the list will be much much much longer. and it will not make anything more enjoyable. the opposite is what will happen, because a lot of player will be angry/mad about.

 

so a nice question: if we have killed the frames and cripple the guns. how do we will survive high level missions? how we will hunt eidalons? or Spiders?

what will we do after every good frame and weapon is vanished?

 

i have no idea which you are so against Saryn, just because some Player maxed her out, while other frames do exactly the same.

go in another map part or leave the group. how easy is this?

 

this is a multiplayer game. player do have different playstyles and different views. so you can't expect any one else want to play like you. but you keep telling we all have to play the same, and makes frame incapatible of what they can now, just to fit your view. and thats just wrong. 

you can think whatever you want - but don't force your view on other.

a lot of players play this game, and you wont be able to play with all of them. so you can't keep telling they are all wrong just because you see it this way. then leave the group if you cant play with a saryn, or whatever, it's your own choice.  always. you should be old enough to do things on your own without forcing other to fit you mind. 

and yes - it will restrict me, if Saryn will be nerfed. because i play her most times beside Nezha - which already was reworked. and may some think its so a perfect rework: i hate it.

 

Edited August 5, 2019 by (PS4)NewcastleDisease
typo again

[Cubewano]

16 minutes ago, (PS4)NewcastleDisease said:

thats just not correct. i play her for over a year now and know what i'm talking about.

(my build is no nuke - i build her for melee, support and speed)

i don't think you do by the sounds of it

16 minutes ago, (PS4)NewcastleDisease said:

again: not true. to make her the nuke all frame you see her you have to forma her several times, you have to get the right arcanas, to get the right mods, you have to max the mods which will cost a massive amount of endo and credits. and you have to be lucky to get what you need to do this all. just because the op firstly saw a max. build nuke saryn don't make it better that he blame the frame, the player and want to nerf a great frame to fit his level.

but the base Saryn is a great attack supporter - and whatever you say, it will not make it more or less true. 

her dps is more instant, has arguably a higher range, is cheaper, is combo'd with utility, self manages to a degree, she also has a speed button, an instant aoe with okayish damage, especially high levels, and buff to her weapons. compared to equinox she could be seen as having more ease of use definitely. they both still require modding of course, though not really the the extent you seem to think they do, and never did i intend to imply otherwise. but again, not seeing the point with this line of debate. 

16 minutes ago, (PS4)NewcastleDisease said:

you're argument say exactly that. if we have to nerf all frames which are overpowered if you mod them right you have to restrict:

Ash, Banshee, Chroma, Equinox, Excal, Frost, Hydroid,  Inaros, Limbo, Mesa, Nekros, Nova, Nyx, Octavia, Revenant, Volt

just to get the first one which come to my mind - with every of that frame i can make a build which does the same or more damage than saryn does.

and for weapons the list will be much much much longer. and it ill not make anything more enjoyable. the opposite is what will happen, because a lot of player will be angry about.

The issue is how wide the damage can be distributed, not just how high it can go, at least for the present conversation. But if you think all those frames can out map clear Saryn with their kits feel free to supply builds and recordings of each frame doing such.

16 minutes ago, (PS4)NewcastleDisease said:

so a nice question: if we have killed the frames and cripple the guns. how to we will survive high level missions? how we will hunt eidalons? or Spiders?

what will we do after every good frame and weapon is vanished?

relevance? 

16 minutes ago, (PS4)NewcastleDisease said:

i have no idea which you are so against Saryn, just because some Player maxed her out, while other frames do exactly the same.

go in another map part or leave the group. how easy is this?

You can read through the last two pages for explanations as to why If you'd like. And I've already made it clear my stance isn't towards Saryn specifically nor exclusively, just a function she happens to have, and I'm against it universally. 

16 minutes ago, (PS4)NewcastleDisease said:

this is a multiplayer game. player do have different playstyles and different views. so you can't expect any one else want to play like you. but you keep telling we all have to play the same, and makes frame incapatible of what they can now, just to fit your view. and thats just wrong. 

i've not made any of those arguments.

16 minutes ago, (PS4)NewcastleDisease said:

you can think whatever you want - but don't force your view on other.

implying there is an alternative? 

16 minutes ago, (PS4)NewcastleDisease said:

a lot of players play this game, and you wont be able to play with all of them. so you can't keep telling they are all wrong just because you see it this way. then leave the group if you cant play with a saryn, or whatever, it's your own choice.  always. you should be old enough to do things on your own without forcing other to fit you mind.

again, relevance? 

16 minutes ago, (PS4)NewcastleDisease said:

and yes - it will restrict me, if Saryn will be nerfed. because i play her most times beside Nezha - which already was reworked. and may some think its so a perfect rework: i hate it.

ah no, i was talking about the limbo example. sounded a lot like you had to restrict your freedoms to keep him at bay.

[(PSN)NewcastleDisease]

Limbo is just a pain in the a$$ for me. But some people enjoy playing him. So i just leave a group where is see him or go to the opposite part of the map. 

 

The relevance of my posting parts are: you always have a choice to choose if you want to play with a group or not. I don't see any benefits on rework frames to death just because some people cry for their kilcount. 

 

Still I play a lot of missions on my own. Will also not possible if frames can't do damage over time. 

And another of your arguments: you need more customization on saryn as on some other frames to make her nuke. Banshee even do not need a single forma for example. 

[(XBOX)Zweimander]

You know whats funny though? if your good enough you can still get kills and be active in a mission before the enemies die to sayrns spores. So the asnwer to new players not getting any action is for them to just get better themselves instead of dragging the rest of the game down to their level. I am atleast somewhat competitive with most nuke frames regardless of what I bring because I know how to move optimally and have good weapon builds. It is a matter of climbing the ladder until you get on the level of your peers plain and simple...

Edited August 5, 2019 by (XB1)Zweimander

[Hypermega]

Look at it this way Defense frames (yes saryn is defense because her spores don't spread if she outranges them and her molt draws fire) where was i? Defense frames are much stronger as defensive missions are endless but as a rule less suited than say an excal or valkitty for short missions as they cant effectively mobilize their abilities unless the are low level in which case just let the classless troll think he is a big deal and take it as a free carry its all you can do for now until that stuff is behind you. and later you and saryn and equinox, volt, etc have to play second fiddle to the spin2win atterax club. (don't worry they are a rare breed) 

 

Also dont worry about sanctuary onslaught the whole mode is a total failure as people only use it to rank up weapons and it can be wildly exploited by nukers

Edited August 5, 2019 by Hypermega

[kgabor]

Don't mind me. I'm just here to give 'Hahas' and chew popcorn, but i'm all out of popcorn. (and my daily emote limit)

Btw. i don't think anyone here wants to make Saryn the dumpster fire World on Fire or Sound Quake/Resonating Quake currently is. (i personally would like to replace the latter with something more engaging and useful)

Currently the combination of Spores's armor debuff and damage scaling has the unintended effect of outright deleting mobs.

Only thing that needs to be changed about Saryn imo. is to tone down the damage numbers Spores can reach and Saryn would still be a great debuffer-dps-melee frame with a lot of utility, since Spores were already changed to be the armor strip ability and swapped places with Miasma, it was already a net buff.

[(XBOX)FISTO ROBOT0]

Because warframe actually pays off incredible hard work and dedication by allowing players to grow extremely powerful. It’s one of warframes most fun aspects. Nobody wants the best you can become to be “pretty good” or have the feeling of destiny where content is level gated but then when you are playing the content you feel exactly the same as a level 5 player fighting level 5 enemies. Warframe has tangible growths in power and you’ve just seen the result of a good Saryn build. If this bores you, you could try to recruit your own squad or play solo so that you don’t feel so outmatched. It’s not like you’ll be playing with that Saryn every game. Just say to yourself “wow that Saryn is kicking ass, good for them!” And then move on to the next activity.

[(XBOX)zThulsaDoomz]

Stop bringing up Limbo in this disaster.  He gets enough grief as is

[DeMonkey]

14 minutes ago, (XB1)GaussPrime said:

@DeMonkey

Oh I saw. I'm not replying because I'm currently plotting your demise. 

In all seriousness, the staff does do a ridiculous amount of damage, always has, and if DE ever get their act together about balancing the game it'll need a nerf along with all melee.

But it doesn't detract from others enjoyment.

[goatwin]

On 2019-08-03 at 1:18 AM, (XB1)Hyperion Rexx said:

Jeez, poor op.  Got carried in a sortie that by his own description he would probably have struggled in.  Went afk because he was so upset he wasn't getting all the kills himself.  FFS!

I'm getting royally fed up of players screaming for nerfs.  You know what happens when stuff gets nerfed?  Players go ape S#&$, that's what.  Why?  Because wf is about power.  About being the most godly, strongest, death dealing mo fo in the solar system.  Should players who have invested thousands of hours into the game in order to achieve that level of godliness have all their toys taken away because new players have their feelings hurt for a FEW MINUTES because they aren't on the same level?  HELL NO.  

Gaze upon their greatness, drool at their god like powers, aspire to be them.  Then collect all the loot.

Over the years i had to let others have all the fun usually because some new nuking meta shows up and 5 out of 10 games i had to sit and do nothing, then rejoiced when some sweet nerfs shows up. Yeah your idea of "you should accept me sapping you of all the fun because it would be selfish of you to want to have some fun too" had been around for years. But you know what? Maybe you should play solo since you can nuke everything why play public? That will make you feel like more of a god! 😄

[JackHargreav]

After they nerfed Mesa. Sure.

[Giantconch]

Theres a dozen other under-performing frames that should be reworked long before Saryn gets yet another rework

[(PSN)Yes-Man-Kablaam]

saryn's augment for her 2 gives her a heal I have a tanky Saryn. tbh all they need to some what lower her 4's damage since it cc's with a stun, inflicts viral and does a ton of damage. and then maybe cap spore spread range or cap the max damage on it since it also destroys all enemy armor.

[Giantconch]

Just now, (XB1)GaussPrime said:

Not this again..

I was hesitant to post similar feelings. Given how the OP was posting in that other Saryn thread, I was actually close to just calling this whole thread low quality bait.

[.Fire_Fly.]

Let’s buff a few first like mirage

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

14 minutes ago, JackHargreav said:

After they nerfed Mesa. Sure.

I dont know why anyone could even argue that Mesa is more overpowered. Her 4 cant go through walls. Unlike saryn who can not only disregard walls but also cover practically the whole tile much of the time.

[-Krism-]

21 minutes ago, InfinitusPhoenix said:

Reworking her 2 ability to a healing ability, like getting heals from inflicting toxin on enemy for example.

[PyreFox]

Remember something, if you see a Frame absolutely decimating everything, it's never a frame that is just out of the box. No frame kills everything until its been developed.

That's a frame with a dedicated time and forma. Effort into their mod build (researched or otherwise) then the sheer joy of melting platoons.

 

That's what Warframe is for mate, welcome to the ride.

[Mover-NeRo]

You think that if you nerf Saryn your problem will go away?

Nope... She will be replaced by other nuke frames. Volt, Mesa, Equinox, Revenant....even Nova with Drop.

Same thing when DE reworked old Draco as it was used for Affinity farm...other spots just took its place.

[Aldain]

25 minutes ago, PyreFox said:

Remember something, if you see a Frame absolutely decimating everything, it's never a frame that is just out of the box. No frame kills everything until its been developed.

That's a frame with a dedicated time and forma. Effort into their mod build (researched or otherwise) then the sheer joy of melting platoons.

And then there's Vauban...

[Veridian]

Why dont they instead nerf that crutch of a frame that is Rhino?

IS only reduces damage by 20% until it's concumed.

Roar lasts 8 hits...

LoL type of balanced

"-A frame solely based on killing should excell at killing"

            Someone who "mains" 30 frames.

Edited August 5, 2019 by Ver1dian

[(PSN)deathwolfclaw666]

Personally I'd rather they actually balance frames and fix enemy/player damage scaling rather than lazily nerf frames just because some people are crying too loudly about the  "most op frame" at that time.

[JackHargreav]

54 minutes ago, (XB1)ECCHO SIERRA said:

I dont know why anyone could even argue that Mesa is more overpowered. Her 4 cant go through walls. Unlike saryn who can not only disregard walls but also cover practically the whole tile much of the time.

Yeah but Mesa clears the enemies she sees in mere seconds, much faster than Saryn, since her ability might scale infinitely but it also needs time to actually become stronger and eventually it does too much damage and kills the host too fast.

And Mesa has DR. Put an Adaptation mod her some power strength and duration and you have a fast killing tank that doesn't give a flying about enemy lvl, damage and numbers.

And She's also the most meta Dps frame right now. While Saryn is used mostly in Eso. Outside of that mission type I've never seen a Saryn.