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MrRixter

Can something be done about Saryn?

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Posted (edited)
vor 14 Minuten schrieb Cubewano:

Then you play her? Ideally under the state of the later instance, which is what I'm for, where she'd function perfectly fine. 

Nobody is saying her playstyle has to change, just the extent it can go to. If you truly just enjoy her because of her aesthetic / kit flow there's nothing saying that has to change. Not to say you couldn't similarly enjoy if she changed either, people certainly like Wukong now more than in the past, albeit him being technically weaker for it. 

Yes we'd have to rework all that apply, at least if we're intent on actually solving the issue.

i like her because she is well designed, and sorry but she is balanced. just because she can do mass damage (which she was forged for) don't makes her overpowered. but you need to mod her the right way with the right mods to get her to that point. 

any limbo or eqinox or even an nekros and some other frames can do more damage in less time. no one cries about them. but it seems you just want to cripple all frame to the egde. why? whats the benefits on killing all these frames? and what issues are you talking about? that a frame is designed for a special purpose? sorry but do you also want to kick ivaras invisibility? or ashs bladstorm again? because they are able to do things other can't?

just let me know what the benefit is to "rework" saryn. that some are sadisfied because she can't mass controll any more? than what is saryn for? what would be her purpose?

 

ah, and if you don't want to play such frames: don't do it. 

 

Edited by (PS4)NewcastleDisease
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Posted (edited)

With Limbo the rift seems to be a problem. It can block enemy attacking and stop interaction with consoles to name a few. Excalibro, I've seen a few folks complain about people jumping out in operator and going afk. With Wukong Celestial Twin, I've already seen people complaining about room clears with the twin and the staff. We even had someone come flying by with their twin using catchmoon (it looked like) and wiping out the Index.

But your focus in the replies for me was only success. You asked me why I am focusing on the negatives to support my concerns. It's the same you use the success to support yours. I hadn't heard you say (unless I missed it) that reworks have failed so maybe a rework can go wrong. That's what I was trying to pointing out. I am also pointing out what others who experienced for both versions of Saryn's said and there are supporting claims that her nuke was much worse before.

I'm not ignoring you at all. The statement is made in response to several posts here that are from people who call her "boring" or say that "nuke frames have no place" etc etc. You yourself said that she feels like more of a nuisance to you, that you are cheating through the game, and that it grows old fast for you. Nevertheless, I feel sort of the same though, that you are ignoring the points I also have. I'm sorry, but as a person who really likes Saryn, if I don't speak up for a frame I DO enjoy and I DO like playing regularly....I am going to sit idly by and watch a frame I do happen to have fun with, destroyed. You see an issue...I don't. 

As for cooperative gameplay, again there are other solutions that are being ignored because some folks just want a nerf/rework. If these kinds of things ruin co-op play for you....then please take an option to not play with them? Why is that not even considered?.....instead the dislike of some to play with a frame should mean a change for everyone? That's pretty intense. There are many other options for coop play including clans, friends, and maybe one day a more detailed looking for group. I'm just over done with crying for nerfs every time someone doesn't think a frame should exist in the game the way it does. I still don't see how nuke frames even ruin the majority of game play. Can you please give me instances of every aspect she ruins to make it the majority? If the frames weren't meant to exist...they wouldn't be made.

As for the nullifiers, yeah I can try and take them out but in higher level maps/missions quite a few spawn. I enjoy using spores with miasma and the nullifiers seem to negate both. I normally run her 1,3 and 4.

Edited by FaithRose
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23 minutes ago, (PS4)NewcastleDisease said:

i like her because she is well designed, and sorry but she is balanced. just because she can do mass damage (which she was forged for) don't makes her overpowered. but you need to mod her the right way with the right mods to get her to that point. 

any limbo or eqinox or even an nekros and some other frames can do more damage in less time. no one cries about them. but it seems you just want to cripple all frame to the egde. why? whats the benefits on killing all these frames? and what issues are you talking about? that a frame is designed for a special purpose? sorry but do you also want to kick ivaras invisibility? or ashs bladstorm again? because they are able to do things other can't?

just let me know what the benefit is to "rework" saryn. that some are sadisfied because she can't mass controll any more? than what is saryn for? what would be her purpose?

 

ah, and if you don't want to play such frames: don't do it. 

 

 

How is she balanced when you have players refusing to play with a Saryn because she nukes everything on the map? Whats your definition of balanced exactly? 

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Posted (edited)
vor 25 Minuten schrieb (PS4)Bigboodyjuudy:

 

How is she balanced when you have players refusing to play with a Saryn because she nukes everything on the map? Whats your definition of balanced exactly? 

so, do you know what you have to do to make her able to wipe out an entire map? 

to get her so far you have to play a lot and farm mods, arcanas etc. 

thats something you can do with a lot of frames. make them nearly impossible to kill, autoaim to shot every enemies head or even wipe out a map too. that do not make them unbalanced. it's there purpose to be a such a frame. Saryn is just a very popular one. Thats all.

but beside there 4th, she perform very good as  support with her 1st to make enemies weaker and her 2nd to draw attention, and also be good in meele with her 3rd. thats why i say: she is good balanced. i can play every situation with her (na... without a few spy missions i think 😄)

i like to play in teams, to support other 

and also doing stuff on my one.

and Saryn give me everything i need to do this.

i just like the way you can play with her abilities.

but as already wrote: there are frame which can do more damage, and noone complain about them - just because they are not that popular.

and the op is just another new player which write the same old stuff about a frame just to nerf it to his own abilities. and missed to see that you need a lot of stuff and work and time to get this far.

so your solution is to rip every frame just you are able to do such things with enought time and work? this is a loot game. we play to do such things one time, or to get the new perfect fitting high damage weapon and mod her to be better. and so on.

but go on, kill the whole game and restrict every frame which do not sadisfy your mind. And in a few month noone will play warframe because every frame is exactly like every other frame else just with another animation. would be a very cool game then... 

 

Edited by (PS4)NewcastleDisease
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Posted (edited)
44 minutes ago, (PS4)Bigboodyjuudy said:

How is she balanced when you have players refusing to play with a Saryn because she nukes everything on the map? Whats your definition of balanced exactly? 

You have players refusing to play with others for a variety of reasons. Should we be considering all of them in that case? For example, someone who still insists on leaving a mission when Limbo pops in, evne after it's shown that he actually plays with other people in mind?

Or should we consider those who refuse to play with Equinox because her Maim wipes everything off the map?

Or those those who refuse to play with players who refuse to play with others who use kitguns because they are incredibly powerful and can cut through most enemies like butter?

Or those who refuse to run with a Mesa because her guns make short work of enemies too?

Or new players who enter missions where players with high-level gear - which they have more than likely spent ages building and getting mods for - hang out and the proceed to complain about being bored because the high-level players are unsurprisingly taking on high-level content easier than they are, like the OP is doing?

You see how this sort of thinking is awful and slippery slope? You will never ever satisfy everyone. People will have gripes whatever the reason. Some are genuine, but most are not. This thread is an example of the latter. Should we listen to the OP? I really do not think so.

Edited by TheGodofWiFi
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On 2019-08-02 at 5:13 PM, MrRixter said:

 can nuke the whole map with no effort at all

Yep, Saryn can do that. Another 30 or so frames can also do that. Unlike others she is very expensive to get to that point.

Why should Saryn take a hit because some vet didn't care for some newbie's feelings?

I know I wouldn't either on my Nth sortie and I'd still wipe out the map with anything from Inaros with PK zaw to Discharge Volt, so should everything be nerfed?

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Just now, Ver1dian said:

Yep, Saryn can do that. Another 30 or so frames can also do that. Unlike others she is very expensive to get to that point.

Why should Saryn take a hit because some vet didn't care for some newbie's feelings?

I know I wouldn't either on my Nth sortie and I'd still wipe out the map with anything from Inaros with PK zaw to Discharge Volt, so should everything be nerfed?

Took the words right out of my mouth.

Rixter's complaint would hold no weight even if he was reffering to the normal star-chart level missions, but the thing that makes it worth even less is that he very clearly went into a Sortie and somehow didn't expect high-level players to be there or something.

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1 hour ago, (PS4)NewcastleDisease said:

i like her because she is well designed, and sorry but she is balanced. just because she can do mass damage (which she was forged for) don't makes her overpowered. but you need to mod her the right way with the right mods to get her to that point. 

any limbo or eqinox or even an nekros and some other frames can do more damage in less time. no one cries about them. but it seems you just want to cripple all frame to the egde. why? whats the benefits on killing all these frames? and what issues are you talking about? that a frame is designed for a special purpose? sorry but do you also want to kick ivaras invisibility? or ashs bladstorm again? because they are able to do things other can't?

just let me know what the benefit is to "rework" saryn. that some are sadisfied because she can't mass controll any more? than what is saryn for? what would be her purpose?

 

ah, and if you don't want to play such frames: don't do it. 

 

just because you say she is enough doesn't make it reality. she invalidates fields of play, negatively impacts co-operative play, and breaks balance to the extent of pushing out entire class roles. if you can somehow find a way to argue that is balanced, feel free, but i'll have a mighty hard time seeing how clearing rooms of enemies without even having to see them while completely restructuring the games balance curve is anything other than woefully imbalanced and overpowered. 

equinox maybe, nekros less so, and to the same ease/efficiency? debatable. why? the earlier issues of game balance, co-operative play, and role diversity. why water down the entire game for a handful of flawed designs? emphasis on handful, there aren't as many over performers as you seem to be painting there to be. equinox, saryn, volt, octavia (for somewhat alternate reasons), and mesa are the only notable standouts, some more than others. 

better game balance, more engaging gameplay, healthier co-operative play, better design/role diversity and viability. as for what her purpose would be after a rework, that'd be up the those reworking her, she could remain the same as a dps with background utility or she could become more support oriented, a debuffer/tank maybe, whose to say. there are many roles aside from being a map clearer, and without the map clearing they all become pretty viable. 

that's not the issue, nor would it resolve any issues. the frame doesn't exist in a vacuum unto itself. 

 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

The part where you say "whats the point" is the part that I'm struggling with the most. The point is right in front of you; Saryn. You get the mods and arcances so you can one day be as powerful as her.

You see, I'd say that this response (not just the bit I've quoted) is quite selfish and fairly narrowminded, not the OP's. You're completely and utterly failing to see it from the point of view of the other player, and it's absolutely impossible to have a reasoned discussion until you can.

To them it's not, "You get the mods and arcances so you can one day be as powerful as her."

It's instead, "You get the mods and arcances so you can one day be as boring as her." 

Hence their question? What is the point? From this new players perspective, what is the point in getting a support frame like Trinity when Saryn nukes everything without support? What is the point in getting a tanky frame like Chroma when Saryn nukes everything, there's nothing to shoot you? What's the point in unlocking new content when Saryn invalidates content? Now, granted, this is not a problem singular to Saryn, but as they have expressed they are new and do not know about all the other ways of invalidating content.

This is not something you should be struggling with.

1 hour ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

I mean could you imagine if this is the attitude all new players had when they saw something powerful?

"Wow that gun kills loads of enemies in one shot, but my unmodded MK-Braton can't even kill one in good time. That makes me bored. Nerf it"

"Wow that polearm can sepreate an entire platoon from their bottom halves while my unmodded Skana can't even open a tin-can. I'm bored again. Nerf it."

Cough Strawman Cough.

They didn't say that they were bored because other things kill better, that's standard fare for a video game, they were bored because something (Saryn) killed everything.

There is a huge difference between:

I killed 5 things in the time it took someone to kill 20, they're powerful but I'm still able to do something and enjoy myself.

vs

I killed nothing throughout the entire mission because someone killed everything before I could. I was so bored I got up and made myself a cup of tea. 

Edited by DeMonkey
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1 hour ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

You do realise what this post sounds like?

"I'm new and I've just seen a player in one mission who has been playing longer than me and thus is more powerful. But I don't really like that. Nerf it."

That's honestly what your post sounds like. I'm sorry but coming into a game and expecting players who have been playing before you to somehow come back down to your level is not only arrogant, but also very selfish.

The part where you say "whats the point" is the part that I'm struggling with the most. The point is right in front of you; Saryn. You get the mods and arcances so you can one day be as powerful as her. That's the whole point of playing the game. I don't know where you have come from before, but that is how Warframe works. Mods make you extremely powerful and they always have done. The fact you don't see that and instead want to just nerf Saryn because you got bored in one mission and can't see how cool it would be to work towards that Saryn's power level is worrying.

It would only be broken if Saryn was like that from the get-go, but she isn't. And yes, considering your definition of broken, there are plenty of frames/guns out there that would qualify for that label in your eyes.

I mean could you imagine if this is the attitude all new players had when they saw something powerful?

"Wow that gun kills loads of enemies in one shot, but my unmodded MK-Braton can't even kill one in good time. That makes me bored. Nerf it"

"Wow that polearm can sepreate an entire platoon from their bottom halves while my unmodded Skana can't even open a tin-can. I'm bored again. Nerf it."

This is not a good post. At all.

Coming into a game and expecting to be able to actually play is about as far from arrogance as one can get. This isn't some vanity piece about "how dare someone be stronger than me", it's a bout a player literally going into a piece of content and being completely cut off being actually able to play due to another player. It's honestly awful you are trying to look down on someone for wanting something as basic as being able to actually play the game they are here to play. 

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Posted (edited)
37 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

You're completely and utterly failing to see it from the point of view of the other player, and it's absolutely impossible to have a reasoned discussion until you can.

I am seeing from their perspective. This is a new player, who has seen a player who has clearly been playing longer than them and has access to mods/resources they do not have yet and is actively making use of them and they do not like it because they find it makes the mission boring. Bear in mind this is one mission and the only mission they have found boring in their opinion. I am not being selfish by pointing out how you can't just expect people to stop using the gear they have worked hard to make, simply because you find it boring. The thing that makes this post extra rich is that MrRixter was in a Sortie at the time he encountered this Saryn.

37 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

To them it's not, "You get the mods and arcances so you can one day be as powerful as her."

It's instead, "You get the mods and arcances so you can one day be as boring as her." 

And that somehow isn't the most selfish thing you have ever heard? Just because someone finds a certain playstyle boring, doesn't suddenly give them the right to demand a nerf. And yes he is failing to see the point in being powerful as that is the kind of build you can get once you reach the level of veteran.

37 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

From this new players perspective, what is the point in getting a support frame like Trinity when Saryn nukes everything without support? What is the point in getting a tanky frame like Chroma when Saryn nukes everything, there's nothing to shoot you?

If you or indeed the OP truly think like that, then it's pretty laughable. By this logic, why is everyone not using Saryn? Why isn't everyone not using Inaros? I mean if all you need is either of those two, then why are people not running around with them all the time. That is the true signal that something is broken. You play certain frames because you find them fun, it's not just about efficiency, although that is a big part.

The point is to get mods to make your frame of choice, just as viable as those two and yes, there are frames who can rival Saryn. Both in the fact they cost less to make a massive nuke build and because they in some cases like Equinox can be far easier to use as they don't even require spamming. Hit one button and there you go. With the right build, certain frames can wipe the floor with enemies. Saryn is not unique in that regard at all.

37 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

They didn't say that they were bored because other things kill better, that's standard fare for a video game, they were bored because something (Saryn) killed everything.

And so can a lot of other frames/weapons in the hands of players who know what they are doing. So it's not a misrepresentation of their argument at all, which is what you are trying to claim. A Mesa in the right hands can kill everything. An Equinox in the right hands can kill everything. An Excalibur in the right hands can kill everything. A lot of frames in this game have the potential to wipe maps clean. The fact this player immediately labels Saryn as OP clearly shows that he will not be having a very good time in the long run.

So my examples do count and are valid. Calling them a "Straw-man" is dishonest.

37 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

I killed nothing throughout the entire mission because someone killed everything before I could. I was so bored I got up and made myself a cup of tea.

And like I said, there are plenty of frames and weapons that can do what Saryn does but in different flavours. Say for example, if MrRixter was in a mission with Equinox. He'd still likely complain because she kills everything with her Maim, if not initially, then with her AOE blast. Or perhaps your own Monkey. What if he gets annoyed by how much range Primal Fury has and how much damage it can do? You're zipping around killing things and he's just grumbling. If this was a post about Wukong, I have no doubt you'd not be on the OP's side. And before you say "It's not about Wukong though, it's Saryn" bear in mind that exposes your bias/hypocrisy. You could also be killing enemies before he can with Wukong.

Also, there are always some enemies that spawn in rooms. If you're just sitting there, letting other players kill everything without doing much effort to find some yourself in another part of the map, then you have little ground to stand on. Also, for the record I will remind you that OP went into a Sortie somehow expecting not to encounter high-level players.

37 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

No new player goes into a mission with the expectation to actually not be able to play the mission.

You act like Saryn press one button and every enemy everywhere simply dies. You do know that moving to another room makes enemies spawn in said room, so there is always enemies avaliable. They don't just spawn in one location. If the Saryn follows MrRixter into different rooms, then that still doesn't justify a nerf as again; plenty of other frames have that capability as well.

The ironic thing you are making a very strong case against getting powerful mods or maxing out your builds at all since there is no point if new players come in and are not happy with them, since they have the capability to nuke enemies.

24 minutes ago, Cubewano said:

Coming into a game and expecting to be able to actually play is about as far from arrogance as one can get. This isn't some vanity piece about "how dare someone be stronger than me", it's a bout a player literally going into a piece of content and being completely cut off being actually able to play due to another player.

The thing is, he isn't. He can easily go into another room and make enemies spawn there, or he can go solo or put together a squad from recruitment, both of which take little to no time at all. Still can't believe people don't know those options exist. If you want to play with randoms, then you simply have to be prepared to roll the dice.

24 minutes ago, Cubewano said:

It's honestly awful you are trying to look down on someone for wanting something as basic as being able to actually play the game they are here to play. 

I'm looking down on him because it's a very selfish post that boils down to "I'm really bored because these veterans are using their maxed builds, they should be nerfed". There are plenty of ways he can enjoy the game both with a Saryn and without one. Please see to the options I listed above.

Veterans shouldn't have to suffer because new players find that their maxed out builds make a mission boring for them, when there are plenty of workarounds for it. MrRixter is going to have an incredibly hard time when he discovers all the other nuke frames and one-shot, max range weapons.

Edited by TheGodofWiFi
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Posted (edited)
vor einer Stunde schrieb Cubewano:

just because you say she is enough doesn't make it reality. she invalidates fields of play, negatively impacts co-operative play, and breaks balance to the extent of pushing out entire class roles. if you can somehow find a way to argue that is balanced, feel free, but i'll have a mighty hard time seeing how clearing rooms of enemies without even having to see them while completely restructuring the games balance curve is anything other than woefully imbalanced and overpowered. 

equinox maybe, nekros less so, and to the same ease/efficiency? debatable. why? the earlier issues of game balance, co-operative play, and role diversity. why water down the entire game for a handful of flawed designs? emphasis on handful, there aren't as many over performers as you seem to be painting there to be. equinox, saryn, volt, octavia (for somewhat alternate reasons), and mesa are the only notable standouts, some more than others. 

better game balance, more engaging gameplay, healthier co-operative play, better design/role diversity and viability. as for what her purpose would be after a rework, that'd be up the those reworking her, she could remain the same as a dps with background utility or she could become more support oriented, a debuffer/tank maybe, whose to say. there are many roles aside from being a map clearer, and without the map clearing they all become pretty viable. 

that's not the issue, nor would it resolve any issues. the frame doesn't exist in a vacuum unto itself. 

 

you don't really get what i have written.

co-op is just perfekt with Saryn. Yes, you will kill the entiry map on low level with her abilities. but you get here Blueprint on SEDNA. this is lvl 30-40. a normal mod Saryn on lvl 30-40 will make your enemies weaker, which it is why she is actually a great frame for co-op. you can use her 1 to help friends, your 2 to draw attention from them, your 3 to have some meele fun, and her 4 to support your squad if to many enemies spawn.

again: yes you can make her a killing frame for almost all lvl with the right mod. but you can do the same with eqinox which kills everything on the map with his aura, or a banshee, with her sound quake. just to get some examples. no one complain about them, but saryn is the bad frame? why?

aaand again: it is not game balancing to just cut off every frame. it is not healthier in co-op to just have frames which can't do mass control. it will just cut frame off there abilities. but thats what make them unique. saryn as EVERY other frame has to be played right to get use out of here potential. this has nothing to do with balancing. Or do you want also nerf all Weapons which has a high damage, just because new players do not have the same powerful weapons? And the mods which make them so.

or to make another example: Limbo. I HATE TO PLAY WITH LIMBO. why? because i get in his buble and can't hit enemies or farm loot in it. so i have to wait or go out. every time. 20-60 times on a defense with a Limbo. THIS is annoying. But i don't say: hey, cripple Limbo, make his best Power unusable because it s?%ks. I just do not play with Limbo Players. Why? Because Limbo Players like the way they play. I don't so i let them do.

But you want to restrict Players just because.

Edited by (PS4)NewcastleDisease
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1 hour ago, FaithRose said:

With Limbo the rift seems to be a problem. It can block enemy attacking and stop interaction with consoles to name a few. Excalibro, I've seen a few folks complain about people jumping out in operator and going afk. With Wukong Celestial Twin, I've already seen people complaining about room clears with the twin and the staff. We even had someone come flying by with their twin using catchmoon (it looked like) and wiping out the Index.

Why is blocking enemies attacking a problem? The interaction issues I can agree being a problem, and it's a miracle DE hasn't done anything about it up to now, but I believe many are on board for changes to that. (Operators are the current inbetween for when Limbos cast their four over consoles) Afk'ing is not a supported behavior and is a reportable offense actually, so one should just report such players, it isn't a backed up behavior by the dev team. And where have you seen these complaints, and how is the room clear being done? I've yet to see any grievances of this sort given the lack of aoe and range for the frame honestly. As for the twing using a catchmoon, any player can use that weapon, it's not really specific to Wukong now is it? 

1 hour ago, FaithRose said:

But your focus in the replies for me was only success. You asked me why I am focusing on the negatives to support my concerns. It's the same you use the success to support yours. I hadn't heard you say (unless I missed it) that reworks have failed so maybe a rework can go wrong. That's what I was trying to pointing out. I am also pointing out what others who experienced for both versions of Saryn's said and there are supporting claims that her nuke was much worse before.

I was offering you a full perspective, since you only seemed to note a specific failure, of course I wasn't requoting that failure back to you since you already mentioned it as that'd be pointless. It was already a present/acknowledged piece of information.

1 hour ago, FaithRose said:

I'm not ignoring you at all. The statement is made in response to several posts here that are from people who call her "boring" or say that "nuke frames have no place" etc etc. You yourself said that she feels like more of a nuisance to you, that you are cheating through the game, and that it grows old fast for you. Nevertheless, I feel sort of the same though, that you are ignoring the points I also have. I'm sorry, but as a person who really likes Saryn, if I don't speak up for a frame I DO enjoy and I DO like playing regularly....I am going to sit idly by and watch a frame I do happen to have fun with, destroyed. You see an issue...I don't. 

Then going forward I'd prefer you maybe address my responses in specific when responding to well...my responses, so that our discussion can move forward? And where do you feel I have ignored your points? I'd be perfectly happy to address anything I've missed. 

1 hour ago, FaithRose said:

As for cooperative gameplay, again there are other solutions that are being ignored because some folks just want a nerf/rework. If these kinds of things ruin co-op play for you....then please take an option to not play with them? Why is that not even considered?.....instead the dislike of some to play with a frame should mean a change for everyone? That's pretty intense. There are many other options for coop play including clans, friends, and maybe one day a more detailed looking for group. I'm just over done with crying for nerfs every time someone doesn't think a frame should exist in the game the way it does. I still don't see how nuke frames even ruin the majority of game play. Can you please give me instances of every aspect she ruins to make it the majority? If the frames weren't meant to exist...they wouldn't be made.

I already explained why that wasn't an option earlier in our conversation:

3 hours ago, Cubewano said:

That isn't really an option though is it? Frames don't exist in a vacuum, and their designs and powers affect the development of future content, and the balance of that content, they even affect the balance of other frames. Toggling them off as a personal pick doesn't undo those impacts, and doesn't put an end the designs they more or less necessitate by proxy of their existence. 

it's also not really a solution but just a shifting burden to lock people out public play so that you can maintain your preferences. 

1 hour ago, FaithRose said:

As for the nullifiers, yeah I can try and take them out but in higher level maps/missions quite a few spawn. I enjoy using spores with miasma and the nullifiers seem to negate both. I normally run her 1,3 and 4.

 Just get any high rof weapon to burst their bubbles at the minimum, they really shouldn't be that much of an obstacle, at least not on the basis of their bubble. 

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Personally I'm playing either Trinity or Wisp.  Mainly Wisp.  But I still drop down my stuff for a Saryn so she can do her job better.  With Wisp I can increase the attack speed of a saryn and also use the stun to pretty much lockdown everything.  And with EV I can keep the Saryn doing what they do best which is nuke.

 

I still feel useful.

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21 minutes ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

I am not being selfish by pointing out how you can't just expect people to stop using the gear they have worked hard to make, simply because you find it boring.

You are absolutely right, and I don't think anyone is expecting or advocating restraint on the part of players; it's not the tool user's fault, it's the tool giver's.

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12 minutes ago, (PS4)NewcastleDisease said:

you don't really get what i have written.

co-op is just perfekt with Saryn. Yes, you will kill the entiry map on low level with her abilities. but you get here Blueprint on SEDNA. this is lvl 30-40. a normal mod Saryn on lvl 30-40 will make your enemies weaker, which it is why she is actually a great frame for co-op. you can use here 1 to help friends, your 2 to draw attention from them, your 3 to ohave some meele fun, and her 4 to support your squad if to many enemies spawn.

kill entire map on all starcharts levels, and even sorties, and higher, with minimal effort. she clears rooms, that's all, if her one was more tame maybe she'd be more like you are describing her, an active participant in teamplay rather than an oppressive dominating force, but that's just not reality, and I believe you actually know that deep down. 

19 minutes ago, (PS4)NewcastleDisease said:

again: yes you can make her a killing frame for almost all lvl with the right mod. but you can do the same with eqinox which kills everything on the map with his aura, or a banshee, with her sound quake. just to get some examples. no one complain about them, but saryn is the bad frame? why?

saryn has more ease of use, and is just a more regularly used frame overall, which is why she draws more attention would be my broad conclusion. for this topic in specific, the op is new, so that's their defense. not sure why either matter for our conversation however to be honest. 

19 minutes ago, (PS4)NewcastleDisease said:

aaand again: it is not game balancing to just cut off every frame. it is not healthier in co-op to just have frames which can't do mass control. it will just cut frame off there abilities. but thats what make them unique. saryn as EVERY other frame has to be played right to get use out of here potential. this has nothing to do with balancing. Or do you want also nerf all Weapons which has a high damage, just because new players do not have the same powerful weapons? And the mods which make them so.

good thing i'm not arguing to cut off every frame. and history would speak to the contrary on map clear, there wasn't remotely as many topics and controversies and just general unrest over game balance before all this aoe clear arrived. it seems it created more division than anything. i also think we have plenty of great, enjoyable, and unique frames outside of a handful of nukes so not sure how founded concerns on that matter are either. i'd also agree to disagree on how precision based saryn is for the return on power she gives, she does a lot more for a lot less than most frames, so much so that an entire category of play is now considered worthless by comparison. and i suppose we could nerf some weapons as well, though not for the reasons you've listed, they're not even any of my talking points. 

19 minutes ago, (PS4)NewcastleDisease said:

or to make another example: Limbo. I HATE TO PLAY WITH LIMBO. why? because i get in his buble and can't hit enemies or farm loot in it. so i have to wait or go out. every time. 20-60 times on a defense with a Limbo. THIS is annoying. But i don't say: hey, cripple Limbo, make his best Power unusable because it s?%ks. I just do not play with Limbo Players. Why? Because Limbo Players like the way they play. I don't so i let them do.

and that all comes at a cost to you, and while maybe you're fine making that choice it doesn't mean anyone else has to be. people can be different like that. 

19 minutes ago, (PS4)NewcastleDisease said:

But you want to restrict Players just because.

 from the above it sounds like you're getting restricted.

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2 minutes ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

I am seeing from their perspective.

You aren't, and I must stress how important I believe it to be that you do.

You're still seeing this from the point of view of a veteran player, as displayed by your post.

4 minutes ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

And that somehow isn't the most selfish thing you have ever heard? Just because someone finds a certain playstyle boring

Not even slightly, because again, you're not seeing it from their perspective. They aren't complaining about the Saryn's playstyle, necessarily, but rather the complete lack of playstyle on their end.

If you are unable to take part in a mission then you have no playstyle, and that is absolutely worth complaining about.

10 minutes ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

And yes he is failing to see the point in being powerful as that is the kind of build you can get once you reach the level of veteran.

That's your point. For some people power is the point of the game, where clicking a button and killing an army is the greatest thrill there is. Please don't be so narrow minded as to believe that this is the only point however, because for others that's utterly boring and goes against the very reason they play video games. Your reason for playing and getting powerful is not the only one that matters.

12 minutes ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

If you or indeed the OP truly think like that, then it's pretty laughable. By this logic, why is everyone not using Saryn? Why isn't everyone not using Inaros? I mean if all you need is either of those two, then why are people not running around with them all the time.

It is not, because once again you are failing to see this from a new players perspective, it is new player logic and you are completely failing to see it that way. What else are they supposed to think upon seeing a map cleared with a flick of the wrist beyond "whats the point in using anything else"?

The entire game revolves around killing things, DPS is obviously king, so if you're new and see a DPS frame that DPS's so hard that no one else gets to play, you're obviously going to think "what's the point in using anything else?". Hell, I wouldn't blame them for thinking, "what's the point in me even being here?", which evidently they did, hence the cup of tea.

16 minutes ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

And so can a lot of other frames/weapons in the hands of players who know what they are doing. So it's not a misrepresentation of their argument at all, which is what you are trying to claim. A Mesa in the right hands can kill everything. An Equinox in the right hands can kill everything. An Excalibur in the right hands can kill everything. A lot of frames in this game have the potential to wipe maps clean. The fact this player immediately labels Saryn as OP clearly shows that he will not be having a very good time in the long run.

So my examples do count and are valid. Calling them a "Straw-man" is dishonest.

No, they don't, because that's not why they're strawmen. 

You've made explaining this far more complicated that it needs to be, and honestly I don't know if this'll actually get through but I'll give it a try.

OP complains about 'X' because it invalidated their role in the mission and caused them an unenjoyable mission. It doesn't matter that they used Saryn in their OP, their complaint is about the fact that they couldn't do anything, and thus is applicable to any frame or weapon that invalidates their role in the mission.

Your responses:

"Wow that gun kills loads of enemies in one shot, but my unmodded MK-Braton can't even kill one in good time. That makes me bored. Nerf it"

"Wow that polearm can sepreate an entire platoon from their bottom halves while my unmodded Skana can't even open a tin-can. I'm bored again. Nerf it."

Are strawmen, as they are complaints about item 'x' being better than their newbie item 'y'.

That is not the argument that the OP has presented, as a reminder the OP's argument is "Item 'x' invalidated my role in the mission by leaving me nothing to do, this is a bad thing", and thus by fabricating said arguments and ridiculing them you have created a strawman.

32 minutes ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

And like I said, there are plenty of frames and weapons that can do what Saryn does but in different flavours. Say for example, if MrRixter was in a mission with Equinox. He'd still likely complain because she kills everything with her Maim, if not initially, then with her AOE blast. Or perhaps your own Monkey. What if he gets annoyed by how much range Primal Fury has and how much damage it can do? You're zipping around killing things and he's just grumbling. If this was a post about Wukong, I have no doubt you'd not be on the OP's side. And before you say "It's not about Wukong though, it's Saryn" bear in mind that exposes your bias/hypocrisy.

It does not, because by saying "It's not about Wukong, it's Saryn" I'm dismissing your hypothetical scenario as nothing more than... well, hypothetical. I'll wait until there's an actual thread about Wukong's staff being overpowered and ruining the game for someone before commenting on such a scenario.

You're not going to be able to refute my points by trying to twist this into an irrelevant hypothetical argument designed to expose "bias". That just won't fly, and I strongly suggest you rethink such tactics in the future.

37 minutes ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

You do know that moving to another room makes enemies spawn in said room, so there is always enemies avaliable.

You're suggesting that a player who is new to the game should know better than to actually play the objective, and should, in the interest of actually enjoying themself, run away from whatever objective they actually have to perform? It's genius.

Once again you are not seeing this from a new player perspective. This is advertised as a co-operative shooter. The idea that you have to actually run away from your teammates in order to actually do anything is completely counter intuitive to anyone joining the game and believing it's a co-operative shooter. Which is everyone btw, if anyone has ever joined this game thinking it's a single player game I'll eat your hat.

38 minutes ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

The ironic thing you are making a very strong case against getting powerful mods or maxing out your builds at all since there is no point if new players come in and are not happy with them, since they have the capability to nuke enemies.

There's nothing ironic in that. Irony doesn't really come into this.

I'm strongly strongly suggesting you reevaluate how you're perceiving this, because your response shows that you're seeing it 100% from the eyes of a veteran player, not a new player.

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Posted (edited)
vor einer Stunde schrieb Cubewano:

kill entire map on all starcharts levels, and even sorties, and higher, with minimal effort. she clears rooms, that's all, if her one was more tame maybe she'd be more like you are describing her, an active participant in teamplay rather than an oppressive dominating force, but that's just not reality, and I believe you actually know that deep down. 

thats just not correct. i play her for over a year now and know what i'm talking about.

(my build is no nuke - i build her for melee, support and speed)

 

Zitat

saryn has more ease of use, and is just a more regularly used frame overall, which is why she draws more attention would be my broad conclusion. for this topic in specific, the op is new, so that's their defense. not sure why either matter for our conversation however to be honest. 

again: not true. to make her the nuke all frame you see her you have to forma her several times, you have to get the right arcanas, to get the right mods, you have to max the mods which will cost a massive amount of endo and credits. and you have to be lucky to get what you need to do this all. just because the op firstly saw a max. build nuke saryn don't make it better that he blame the frame, the player and want to nerf a great frame to fit his level.

but the base Saryn is a great attack supporter - and whatever you say, it will not make it more or less true. 

 

Zitat

good thing i'm not arguing to cut off every frame. and history would speak to the contrary on map clear, there wasn't remotely as many topics and controversies and just general unrest over game balance before all this aoe clear arrived. it seems it created more division than anything. i also think we have plenty of great, enjoyable, and unique frames outside of a handful of nukes so not sure how founded concerns on that matter are either. i'd also agree to disagree on how precision based saryn is for the return on power she gives, she does a lot more for a lot less than most frames, so much so that an entire category of play is now considered worthless by comparison. and i suppose we could nerf some weapons as well, though not for the reasons you've listed, they're not even any of my talking points. 

and that all comes at a cost to you, and while maybe you're fine making that choice it doesn't mean anyone else has to be. people can be different like that. 

 from the above it sounds like you're getting restricted.

you're argument say exactly that. if we have to nerf all frames which are overpowered if you mod them right you have to restrict:

Ash

Banshee

Chroma

Equinox

Excal

Frost

Hydroid

Inaros

Limbo

Mesa

Nekros

Nova

Nyx

Octavia

Revenant

Volt

just to get the first ones which come to my mind - with every of that frame i can make a build which does the same or more damage than saryn does.

and for weapons the list will be much much much longer. and it will not make anything more enjoyable. the opposite is what will happen, because a lot of player will be angry/mad about.

 

so a nice question: if we have killed the frames and cripple the guns. how do we will survive high level missions? how we will hunt eidalons? or Spiders?

what will we do after every good frame and weapon is vanished?

 

i have no idea which you are so against Saryn, just because some Player maxed her out, while other frames do exactly the same.

go in another map part or leave the group. how easy is this?

 

this is a multiplayer game. player do have different playstyles and different views. so you can't expect any one else want to play like you. but you keep telling we all have to play the same, and makes frame incapatible of what they can now, just to fit your view. and thats just wrong. 

you can think whatever you want - but don't force your view on other.

a lot of players play this game, and you wont be able to play with all of them. so you can't keep telling they are all wrong just because you see it this way. then leave the group if you cant play with a saryn, or whatever, it's your own choice.  always. you should be old enough to do things on your own without forcing other to fit you mind. 

and yes - it will restrict me, if Saryn will be nerfed. because i play her most times beside Nezha - which already was reworked. and may some think its so a perfect rework: i hate it.

 

Edited by (PS4)NewcastleDisease
typo again
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16 minutes ago, (PS4)NewcastleDisease said:

thats just not correct. i play her for over a year now and know what i'm talking about.

(my build is no nuke - i build her for melee, support and speed)

i don't think you do by the sounds of it

16 minutes ago, (PS4)NewcastleDisease said:

again: not true. to make her the nuke all frame you see her you have to forma her several times, you have to get the right arcanas, to get the right mods, you have to max the mods which will cost a massive amount of endo and credits. and you have to be lucky to get what you need to do this all. just because the op firstly saw a max. build nuke saryn don't make it better that he blame the frame, the player and want to nerf a great frame to fit his level.

but the base Saryn is a great attack supporter - and whatever you say, it will not make it more or less true. 

her dps is more instant, has arguably a higher range, is cheaper, is combo'd with utility, self manages to a degree, she also has a speed button, an instant aoe with okayish damage, especially high levels, and buff to her weapons. compared to equinox she could be seen as having more ease of use definitely. they both still require modding of course, though not really the the extent you seem to think they do, and never did i intend to imply otherwise. but again, not seeing the point with this line of debate. 

16 minutes ago, (PS4)NewcastleDisease said:

you're argument say exactly that. if we have to nerf all frames which are overpowered if you mod them right you have to restrict:

Ash, Banshee, Chroma, Equinox, Excal, Frost, Hydroid,  Inaros, Limbo, Mesa, Nekros, Nova, Nyx, Octavia, Revenant, Volt

just to get the first one which come to my mind - with every of that frame i can make a build which does the same or more damage than saryn does.

and for weapons the list will be much much much longer. and it ill not make anything more enjoyable. the opposite is what will happen, because a lot of player will be angry about.

The issue is how wide the damage can be distributed, not just how high it can go, at least for the present conversation. But if you think all those frames can out map clear Saryn with their kits feel free to supply builds and recordings of each frame doing such.

16 minutes ago, (PS4)NewcastleDisease said:

so a nice question: if we have killed the frames and cripple the guns. how to we will survive high level missions? how we will hunt eidalons? or Spiders?

what will we do after every good frame and weapon is vanished?

relevance? 

16 minutes ago, (PS4)NewcastleDisease said:

i have no idea which you are so against Saryn, just because some Player maxed her out, while other frames do exactly the same.

go in another map part or leave the group. how easy is this?

You can read through the last two pages for explanations as to why If you'd like. And I've already made it clear my stance isn't towards Saryn specifically nor exclusively, just a function she happens to have, and I'm against it universally. 

16 minutes ago, (PS4)NewcastleDisease said:

this is a multiplayer game. player do have different playstyles and different views. so you can't expect any one else want to play like you. but you keep telling we all have to play the same, and makes frame incapatible of what they can now, just to fit your view. and thats just wrong. 

i've not made any of those arguments.

16 minutes ago, (PS4)NewcastleDisease said:

you can think whatever you want - but don't force your view on other.

implying there is an alternative? 

16 minutes ago, (PS4)NewcastleDisease said:

a lot of players play this game, and you wont be able to play with all of them. so you can't keep telling they are all wrong just because you see it this way. then leave the group if you cant play with a saryn, or whatever, it's your own choice.  always. you should be old enough to do things on your own without forcing other to fit you mind.

again, relevance? 

16 minutes ago, (PS4)NewcastleDisease said:

and yes - it will restrict me, if Saryn will be nerfed. because i play her most times beside Nezha - which already was reworked. and may some think its so a perfect rework: i hate it.

ah no, i was talking about the limbo example. sounded a lot like you had to restrict your freedoms to keep him at bay.

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Limbo is just a pain in the a$$ for me. But some people enjoy playing him. So i just leave a group where is see him or go to the opposite part of the map. 

 

The relevance of my posting parts are: you always have a choice to choose if you want to play with a group or not. I don't see any benefits on rework frames to death just because some people cry for their kilcount. 

 

Still I play a lot of missions on my own. Will also not possible if frames can't do damage over time. 

And another of your arguments: you need more customization on saryn as on some other frames to make her nuke. Banshee even do not need a single forma for example. 

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Posted (edited)

You know whats funny though? if your good enough you can still get kills and be active in a mission before the enemies die to sayrns spores. So the asnwer to new players not getting any action is for them to just get better themselves instead of dragging the rest of the game down to their level. I am atleast somewhat competitive with most nuke frames regardless of what I bring because I know how to move optimally and have good weapon builds. It is a matter of climbing the ladder until you get on the level of your peers plain and simple...

Edited by (XB1)Zweimander
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Posted (edited)

Look at it this way Defense frames (yes saryn is defense because her spores don't spread if she outranges them and her molt draws fire) where was i? Defense frames are much stronger as defensive missions are endless but as a rule less suited than say an excal or valkitty for short missions as they cant effectively mobilize their abilities unless the are low level in which case just let the classless troll think he is a big deal and take it as a free carry its all you can do for now until that stuff is behind you. and later you and saryn and equinox, volt, etc have to play second fiddle to the spin2win atterax club. (don't worry they are a rare breed) 

 

Also dont worry about sanctuary onslaught the whole mode is a total failure as people only use it to rank up weapons and it can be wildly exploited by nukers

Edited by Hypermega
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Don't mind me. I'm just here to give 'Hahas' and chew popcorn, but i'm all out of popcorn. (and my daily emote limit)

Btw. i don't think anyone here wants to make Saryn the dumpster fire World on Fire or Sound Quake/Resonating Quake currently is. (i personally would like to replace the latter with something more engaging and useful)

Currently the combination of Spores's armor debuff and damage scaling has the unintended effect of outright deleting mobs.

Only thing that needs to be changed about Saryn imo. is to tone down the damage numbers Spores can reach and Saryn would still be a great debuffer-dps-melee frame with a lot of utility, since Spores were already changed to be the armor strip ability and swapped places with Miasma, it was already a net buff.

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Because warframe actually pays off incredible hard work and dedication by allowing players to grow extremely powerful. It’s one of warframes most fun aspects. Nobody wants the best you can become to be “pretty good” or have the feeling of destiny where content is level gated but then when you are playing the content you feel exactly the same as a level 5 player fighting level 5 enemies. Warframe has tangible growths in power and you’ve just seen the result of a good Saryn build. If this bores you, you could try to recruit your own squad or play solo so that you don’t feel so outmatched. It’s not like you’ll be playing with that Saryn every game. Just say to yourself “wow that Saryn is kicking ass, good for them!” And then move on to the next activity.

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