Can something be done about Saryn?

[(PSN)ImTheOx]

Saryn isnt all that good against Corpus robotics and shes pritty useless against sentients. 

They should rather buff up other frames. 

Or just lower the spread of her spores. 

[(PSN)dtdionne]

I think saryns right where she needs to be...nerfing her any further would make ESO even more irritating than it already is.

[Rina_Ravyn]

Saryn is currently my No.3 Go-to warframe. Whenever i get bored by Zephyr or Mesa, both tying up my first choice depending on what i need.

Since i usually run 30 to 60 mins Kuva Fortress survivals, this is the most accurate experience i can draw from: 

Saryn isnt overpowered. Her Kit is dull and easy, sure, but other than Mesa or Birdy, you have no active tank or shield ability, and when it comes to hard CC the only real choice you have is to kill them outright. Ofc saryn can do that, but you lot in the higher ranks certainly know that a lvl 100 bombard just needs to get one good shot off to deck you before he dies to the spores himself. 

I might be a bit biased, or just bad.... i mean this is the internet, and were all just one step away from being called a noob and l2p, but i think saryn is in a good place period. Simple and easy kit but still requires focus and attention at higher levels.

 

Personally i however like a bit more complex stuff, so i 2&3 spam the S#&$ out of Mesa and Byrdie 😄

[tzaeru]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)dtdionne said:

You could always run solo, that’s what I do.

As you progress you will begin to appreciate the immense effort and time it takes to get a frame and gear to the point that you witnessed with that Tenno running saryn.

Me personally, when I see something like this, it fills me with excitement and encouragement...knowing that if I too continue to invest in this game, I just might be able to do the same.

Well.. I don't wanna be mean or anything, but, when you just do Hydron on repeat, you can fully forma up a frame in just a few hours. So that's all the effort it really takes, given that you have the forma. Which, nowadays, you've plenty of ways to get. The mods you need aren't very special and you should pretty much have them if you've just played a while.

That said, yeah, I like going with unranked or unoptimized builds and play with friends or just do lower level content in random squads hoping that I get newbies in the team. It's fun 🙂

Edited August 6, 2019 by tzaeru

[(PSN)dtdionne]

That response is far less mean than it is inconsiderate or disheartening...not to me, I’ve been max MR for years.  But to others, pretty much anyone that isn’t near max MR.

Theres enormous time and effort involved with simply maxing a single primed mod or vitality...unless you throw a bunch of money at it.  Which I not only do not disapprove of, but I encourage.  This is a great damn game, if they can’t or don’t make money (and lots of it), it’ll go away...and I DO NOT WANT THAT.

[RamonLLLL]

bruh why hasn't this thread ended yet

Edited August 6, 2019 by RamonLeeYJ

[EquinoxPrime]

Me reading this thread.

I’m thankful for Saryn, because with her around I fall under the radar. Granted, “Day only” Equinox irritate me because she can do more than just nuke.

How about we let people play how they want to? If you are unhappy with your current squad, leave and try again.

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

6 minutes ago, RamonLeeYJ said:

bruh why hasn't this thread ended yet

Because I think the mods are waiting for it to go even more off the rails before it gets locked. It shouldnt be in general discussion to begin with. FEED. BACK. jesus.

[(PSN)The1stAzrael]

17 hours ago, (PS4)wildcats1369my said:

Ash sure he is a stupidly broken frame but that is why i loved it, and now he is collecting dust with how clunky his ulti is specially on console. one of the reason why i despise these kind of complains.

ember on the other hand as mentioned is just for low level content and is not broken. 

saryn only excels in survival and eso where enemy spawns are endless. maybe in defense but a bit annoying. put her in the open world and my wukong twin without melee will make her fall to her knees. 

as many have put it already there is a frame in every situation. saryn out damages you because the situation is primed for her success. 

another question to consider is. why use saryn if i can have more loots in survival if i run nekros or hydroid. end mission score screen is worthless but loot count is a didferent thing. 

why spend 5+ minutes in defense if i can finishe it in 3 with saryn. in defense void fissure i nuke after everyone got their reactants to speed things up. 

boring? probably, efficient? yes, is it clowning around? never. 

this is a farming game and if meta dictates that this is the most efficient way to do things, people will follow. 

And when you succeed and destroyed saryn's usability because of nerf the meta will just switch to another broken thing and when all is gone because all is the same for the same of balance so are the players. 

WF is known for being overpowered it is a special niche that pulls players in and when everything is nerfed and gone, WF will just be another looter shooter devoid of its personality.

Ash and Ember players seemingly a rarity these days. And it's a shame since Ash's deluxe and his upcoming deluxe look amazing.

Given the fact that a fairly large amount of the missions on the starchart are survival and defense, it's not unusual for me to run into a Saryn, atleast twice a day; and then there are people who take her into every mission (I've seen people using her in Spy missions, rescue missions, etc).

For me personally, it's not about the end screen results, it's that Saryn happens to interfere a lot with the frames I enjoy playing. What can I cast Chaos on, if everything's dead? I have to actually damage enemies using Discharge in order to gain over shields from Capacitance.

As for the farming aspect, Saryn greatly disrupts Khora, Nekros, Hydroid and Atlas's abilities to receive additional loot, due to the fact that Desecrate requires a corpse to loot (Saryn's spore melts the bodies), Pilfering Swarm requires enemies to be killed by Hydroid's tentacles, Atlas needs to freeze enemies using Petrify in order or Ore Gaze to activate (again, who do I cast Ore gaze on, if they're all dead?), and Pilfering Strangle Dome needs the enemies to be caught in Khora's dome, in order to activate.

That is why nuke frames are not welcome in farm parties.

As for void defense, I also dislike playing with a Saryn (or any nuke for that matter), because most of the time, the nukers seem to forget that the enemies need to be corrupted before killing them. In that situation, the blames lies at the feet of the ignorant players, rather than the frame.

Warframe is known for being overpowered, however the powercreep has gotten so far out of hand, that the only ways to correct it is to

A. Rework the game from the ground up. We're fighting enemies from 2014-2015, using gear that's from 2017-2019, almost nothing has been done to improve our combatants, but we the Tenno, have merely gotten stronger over the years. I understand reworking the entire game would be a very long, and expensive process, and the end result might be something that I'd never even recognise, game play wise; it's unrealistic so obviously that solution is off the table.

B. "Fix" the powercreep by introducing enemies the counter our abilities by completely removing them. This is the case with a good percentage of the Orb Vallis and New Jupiter enemies. Of course, now we see people complaining about the constant nullifier spam, the demolyst's and Arbitration drones. Disruption is one of the few gamemodes where CC becomes somewhat viable, but still not good enough to bring it back to life. I think we can expect to see more nullfier-esque enemies in the near future, since that is seemingly the safest way to counter our over powered frames.

Also, it doesn't help that the Devs are sending mixed signals by designing and reworking frames so that they play better with Starchart enemies, but then release weapons (kitguns) or rework other frames, into death machines.

[Kwikwilyaqa]

When people will start complaining about Damage Types instead of random frames? Saryn have the holy trinity at her disposal, being highly effective against all enemy types in consequence - Viral (cutting HP in half), Corrosive (stripping armor) and Toxic (bypassing shields). Same goes to Equinox with Slash (bleeding - true damage - that ignores armor and shields) or frames with radiation (confusion, enemie self damage and is the best damage type against armor - the solo definition of unbalance in warframe). Gas (causes a cloud of toxic damage) and Heat (DoT, kinda insignificant, with a CC attached) are in the "good" side too, but somehow weak (or to situational) in comparison.

Now look at the other damage procs: Impact procs makes enemies flinch (yeah, just like that), a lesser version of Blast, that causes a knockdown; Puncture makes affected targets deal 30% less damage for 6secs; Magnetic do something to shields that you will never see use for (or, in case of players, cause major annoyance); Cold and Elec are again some insignificant CC (well, not "crowd", more like single target "control"). And what they cannot do? They can't deal with Armor, with Shields or anything else the game thrown at you - and they don't do damage like the others, having weak/useless/situational effects. Frames with this damage types associated with them (and also Gas and Heat) are underpowered by nature.

And this is only true if all the frames are "elemental" by nature, focused in DPS and all missions in the game are endless for infinite scaling (of the most balanced feature of Warframe: Armor) - what is not the case whatsoever.

[sungod1]

I am going to Nuke Entire Planets and take all the kills with my OP 4 button!!!!  Hell it might even take out the mobs on the other tile sets. 

Edited August 6, 2019 by sungod1

[Aldain]

1 minute ago, Kwikwilyaqa said:

When people will start complaining about Damage Types instead of random frames? Saryn have the holy trinity at her disposal, being highly effective against all enemy types in consequence - Viral (cutting HP in half), Corrosive (stripping armor) and Toxic (bypassing shields). Same goes to Equinox with Slash (bleeding - true damage - that ignores armor and shields) or frames with radiation (confusion, enemie self damage and is the best damage type against armor - the solo definition of unbalance in warframe). Gas (causes a cloud of toxic damage) and Heat (DoT, kinda insignificant, with a CC attached) are in the "good" side too, but somehow weak (or to situational) in comparison.

Now look at the other damage procs: Impact procs makes enemies flinch (yeah, just like that), a lesser version of Blast, that causes a knockdown; Puncture makes affected targets deal 30% less damage for 6secs; Magnetic do something to shields that you will never see use for (or, in case of players, cause major annoyance); Cold and Elec are again some insignificant CC (well, not "crowd", more like single target "control"). And what they cannot do? They can't deal with Armor, with Shields or anything else the game thrown at you - and they don't do damage like the others, having weak/useless/situational effects. Frames with this damage types associated with them (and also Gas and Heat) are underpowered by nature.

And this is only true if all the frames are "elemental" by nature, focused in DPS and all missions in the game are endless for infinite scaling (of the most balanced feature of Warframe: Armor) - what is not the case whatsoever.

A very good point 18 pages into a thread off the rails.

Elements are comically unbalanced, and while that is another thread entirely, does serve as a large portion of why Sayrn is as effective as she is.

Because of the comical inequity between elements (in both damage resistance and status effects) these problems are only made more noticeable.

[Loza03]

15 minutes ago, (XB1)Hyperion Rexx said:

I don't think that many actually do want a nerf tbh.  A very vocal few, certainly, but having read the whole thread (yes, that was a flex) I'd say probably more are opposed to a nerf than for it.

And I still maintain that given the average mission length is probably in the 5-10 min range, even if you despise saryn and you get in a team with her (rare) you only have to put up with it for a few short minutes.  It's sad how entitled some players are that they think the game should be designed around them personally.

 

15 minutes ago, str4dlin said:

Well, this game has something and it is that if you want to find a challenge you can find a challenge. The error is not about saryn rushing low mode content. As Gara, ember, volt, equinox or an Amprex, Catchmoon or whatever leveled and with equipment can do. The error is consider you can go public and find a challenge every game. 

Sorties are rushed from people that have done tons of them. I dont need to do every sortie with a pistol acting like a devotee to see how the other players enjoy or how good are them. 

The error is not the warframe the error is who try to find something where it isn't. Is demonstrated Saryn is not broken if you bring the numbers to the table so after that we dont need to say anything else. Others are tears. Most of them from frustrated players that try to show how good they are also in the wrong place and banissed by someone that is only rushing.

You never thought how fast people do the missions when you begin to play? That is frustrating also for new players. This is the same. LEt's nerf warframes and do them slower!
And the problem is they talk without argument and without knowledge about what the warframe they talk about is in the reality. And they are not much, they are a bit. But mostly veterans are not here losing the time because they know they are not going to find reasonable people. Just read the whole thread. "sayin is for noobs", "Nuke frame", "you only know to play Saryn", etc, etc. 

All going down when someone bring the arguments and the reality of the numbers.

 

14 minutes ago, uAir said:

Practically no one has a problem with Saryn.

Go to recruit chat in the game and wait for just one hour. I can almost guarantee you'll find at least 3-5 people if not more asking for a carry or for help with some low level content.
No one has a problem with someone else helping them through content or just leveling up something for them or hopping into ESO and having a Saryn sit there and carry them to 8 waves for drops. *no one*

Ask every single one of them and offer to help them. Tell them if it's okay if you use Saryn and I can guarantee they won't care who you play so long as you can get them through 8 waves of ESO/SO for their drops or complete the spy mission for them or help them farm for something.
(I'm MR27, I have nothing else I need to farm or do right now, I sit in the recruit chat and help people, no one cares what frame I use and no one cares where we go to farm for something so long as they get it)

============

The only people that want to complain are the very minor number of players who want to hop onto the forums and complain about it.
Warframe averages in the tens of thousands of players (if not more) online at any given time. If it were an issue this board would be inundated with posts and all we're seeing here are just a very few players who, we assume, and who already has revealed as much through their posting that

1) Don't know how to play the game well.
2) Are new.
3) Think the game should be made to their specifications and think their opinion is worth more than those of others.

It is a very small number of players against the backdrop of many more players that care. If we're going to cater to every player then we need to cater to me as well. Buff Mesa. ty 🙂

Glad to see people putting words in my mouth.

 

There is 18 pages and four days of near-constant arguing about Saryn in this thread alone, and many more threads as well. If there genuinely wasn't a problem with Saryn, this wouldn't happen. There has to be at least two sides for there to be a controversy, and rational for issue for it to keep coming up. A fire doesn't burn with no fuel. 

 

This is a game about fighting things. The vast majority and foundation of the game is built around fighting things. If there are things that can make the process trivial, then yes, there is a problem, regardless of how much or how little somebody individually cares about, enjoys or benefits from it. People enjoy hard drugs, people don't care about Global Warming and people benefit from crime. That doesn't mean those things are healthy or good for the person or the society they live in. The same thing applies to overpowered content.

For example, among the things that are directly tied to the combat system is progression and looting - things that Saryn is often cited as being needed for. Thing is, if fighting is trivial because you have a way to effectively disable or instantly kill enemies, if you get loot and progression from fighting, then logically, looting is trivial. And if looting is trivial, the only way for DE to make something valuable or respected is to make it cost a lot of resources or a lot of runs to get. In that way, Saryn (or, more accurately, similar frames and weapons that allow for easy combat). Meaning it's entirely likely that Nukeframes are an answer to a problem they were at least partially responsible in creating. 

Seriously, think about just how many of the game's problems can be attached, at least partially, to issues in the combat system.

[Cubewano]

1 hour ago, (XB1)RevenantRequiem said:

Except he hasn't said that and she isn't a mess. She's perfect the way she is. And if you don't think managing spores can be tough then you clearly aren't playing her right. She can't just sit in one spot and nuke the map anymore.

So she is a mess? Yet also perfect? Nah. And it sounds more like you're not playing her right if I'm having such an easy time wiping with her and you aren't. 

[Cubewano]

38 minutes ago, (PS4)dtdionne said:

I think saryns right where she needs to be...nerfing her any further would make ESO even more irritating than it already is.

nerfing her any further would imply she's faced any genuine nerfing at all, which she hasn't, her rework for some grand mistake of calculations made her more powerful, and now she's bordering into the area of predatory towards teamplay, and game design as a whole. she's not where she needs to, she's not where any tool in a combat game needs to be, and even the person who did the rework recognizes and acknowledges that. (and just wait until you realize eso is as irritating as it is directly because of where frames like saryn have gotten)

[Cubewano]

54 minutes ago, (XB1)Hyperion Rexx said:

I don't think that many actually do want a nerf tbh.  A very vocal few, certainly, but having read the whole thread (yes, that was a flex) I'd say probably more are opposed to a nerf than for it.

And I still maintain that given the average mission length is probably in the 5-10 min range, even if you despise saryn and you get in a team with her (rare) you only have to put up with it for a few short minutes.  It's sad how entitled some players are that they think the game should be designed around them personally.

Then you've been reading a different thread, or cherry picking, because the sentiment here seems far more split. And it seems like we never don't have a hot topic over the games balance state and in return nukes presence in the game. 

And 5-10 minutes of time consistently wasted is not short, nor should it be a standard at all, you're just completely shirking the issue by saying it won't happen always which is meaningless. All I run into these days are nukes, whether it's a Saryn, a Equinox, Volt, anyone spamming a high range maiming strike build, it's no wonder this is such a hot topic given how recurring it is, and how impactful it is to team paly, in a co-op game. Also just shut it with people being entitled just for wanting to be able to actually play the game they have invested their time and possibly money to enjoy, like how low of a bar are you living at that expecting something that basic is considered being entitled to you? 

[Samhel]

Public games will always provide higher level players too. What did you expect? It's a pve game anyway and making anything extremely balanced according to new player standards would make solo or good modding impossible. Either play with invited friends, clanmates or others and enjoy the "balanced" pve gameplay or go with public queue, it's totally your choice. Or try solo, which without a good build i do not recommend.

And what do you even mean by "with no effort"?? That guy worked hundreds of hours for their build to work that way. Like other high level players.

When new players complain that veterans are present in their game :DDD Funny

[(XBOX)Hyperion Rexx]

4 minutes ago, Cubewano said:

nerfing her any further would imply she's faced any genuine nerfing at all, which she hasn't, her rework for some grand mistake of calculations made her more powerful, and now she's bordering into the area of predatory towards teamplay, and game design as a whole. she's not where she needs to, she's not where any tool in a combat game needs to be, and even the person who did the rework recognizes and acknowledges that. (and just wait until you realize eso is as irritating as it is directly because of where frames like saryn have gotten)

What team play?   There's precious little of that in wf.  No planning ahead and agreeing on loadouts and tactics, just 4 random people with random gear all competing against each other for most kills.  Then crying if someone brought a frame that meant they didn't get the most themselves.   

And if you nerf saryn, the nerf hammer just logically moves on to the next frame with a nuke ability. And so on.

Plus, I would appreciate if you could point me towards where Pablo has said he thinks saryn is a mistake and needs nerfed.  I'm not saying he hasn't,  just I've not seen it and am genuinely curious to read it myself.

[(XBOX)Zweimander]

3 hours ago, (NSW)Badger said:

as a big fan of Saryn  I have been thinking of a possible solution that might satisfy all camps involved (hopefully). 

Make Miasma not Kill. Make it like False Swipe in Pokémon where it leaves them with one HP or so. Then if you use Miasma you'd also have to make it that they can't die from the spores, either. Then you can spread the spores to kill, use miasma to spread the spores but leave the killing to weapons or teammates. This way, spores becomes the main form of Saryn DPS besides Toxic Lash, and Miasma is used more for crowd-control and spreading viral status procs. This would slow her down a bit, but still give her plenty of DPS and give her teammates a chance to shine.

Or, alternatively, leave her alone and rework one of the other DPS frames, not sure who, (cough, ember, cough, cough) so that the killing everything on the map love gets spread around, giving not only more player choice but more dynamic team-building. 

So make a DPS frame into a frame that cannot kill with her powers and put her in the trashcan? I dont think I of many want that and it makes zero sense...

[(XBOX)Hyperion Rexx]

5 minutes ago, Cubewano said:

Then you've been reading a different thread, or cherry picking, because the sentiment here seems far more split. And it seems like we never don't have a hot topic over the games balance state and in return nukes presence in the game. 

And 5-10 minutes of time consistently wasted is not short, nor should it be a standard at all, you're just completely shirking the issue by saying it won't happen always which is meaningless. All I run into these days are nukes, whether it's a Saryn, a Equinox, Volt, anyone spamming a high range maiming strike build, it's no wonder this is such a hot topic given how recurring it is, and how impactful it is to team paly, in a co-op game. Also just shut it with people being entitled just for wanting to be able to actually play the game they have invested their time and possibly money to enjoy, like how low of a bar are you living at that expecting something that basic is considered being entitled to you? 

But it's not consistent, it's occasionally,  at least from my experience.  And it's a bit hypocritical to say players should be allowed to play what they want while at the same time say they shouldn't if you don't like their choices. 

If you're that dead set against any form of nuke frame, or even high damage weapons from the sound of it, there are other options you can use rather than pubs.  If so much of your time is being wasted in missions with players you don't like then it may be more efficient to try recruitment or get get people from your clan, maybe even start a clan solely for players who don't like nukes or aoe/large clear weapons.  That might actually be fun. 

[(XBOX)AMONGTHEWEAK]

The game isn't balanced, never has been, and I don't believe it ever will be. There will always be an alpha in whatever aspect we look at. 

[Cubewano]

Just now, (XB1)Hyperion Rexx said:

What team play?   There's precious little of that in wf.  No planning ahead and agreeing on loadouts and tactics, just 4 random people with random gear all competing against each other for most kills.  Then crying if someone brought a frame that meant they didn't get the most themselves.   

And if you nerf saryn, the nerf hammer just logically moves on to the next frame with a nuke ability. And so on.

Plus, I would appreciate if you could point me towards where Pablo has said he thinks saryn is a mistake and needs nerfed.  I'm not saying he hasn't,  just I've not seen it and am genuinely curious to read it myself.

Playing with others is playing with a team, and while the experience for it gets worse day by day the game is still at the core a 4 man co-op shooter. The 'crying' however has nothing to do with getting the most for themselves, its about being to get anything at all, as per the op. (which please do read some of the thread before making those arguments, it'd be a great help)

And yes, it would have to go on the other problem actors and imbalanced designs, that's how fixing problems works. 

As for Pablo, it's come up in his streams a few times, though I don't have any times stamps personally for them so that may take some digging. Within I believe the last two weeks if that's of aid I believe he made an off mention about when he reworks her again as well, implying plans to rebalance her again, so that's a thing as well. 

[Cubewano]

13 minutes ago, (XB1)Hyperion Rexx said:

But it's not consistent, it's occasionally,  at least from my experience.  And it's a bit hypocritical to say players should be allowed to play what they want while at the same time say they shouldn't if you don't like their choices. 

If you're that dead set against any form of nuke frame, or even high damage weapons from the sound of it, there are other options you can use rather than pubs.  If so much of your time is being wasted in missions with players you don't like then it may be more efficient to try recruitment or get get people from your clan, maybe even start a clan solely for players who don't like nukes or aoe/large clear weapons.  That might actually be fun. 

It is consistent, at least from my experience. And where did I say that? All I'm for is players being privy to an even positive experience. Ideally one not dictated by a single player in what is, again, a co-op game. 

And there aren't, unless you're going to secretly reveal a second version of Warframe with entirely different game balance and designs, unencumbered by the effects of nukes not just across themselves, but the game as a whole. These toys don't exist in a vacuum after all. 

 

[WoodedSkate89]

I hate saryn. She promotes 0 effort and 0 skill for players to get the highest damage counter at the end of the mission.

You don't become a better player with saryn, you get better at pressing 1

Edited August 6, 2019 by WoodedSkate89

[sungod1]

1 minute ago, WoodedSkate89 said:

I hate saryn. She promotes 0 effort and 0 skill for players to get the highest damage counter at the end of the mission.

You don't become a better player with saryn, you get better at pressing 1

Your idea of a better play is just your idea. People play the way they like.