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Can something be done about Saryn?


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1 hour ago, WoodedSkate89 said:

I challenge you to find one instance where I did that

Your % quote.

Let me be a bit blunt here.

There will always be mouth breathers who cant assemble a build to carry a sortie who will complain Saryn is op.

If I can get 72% damage with Wu in Eso 8 vs a 26 Saryn, then you can buff your Rhino enough to get those 10 kills and not feel bored.

Edited by Ver1dian
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Just now, (NSW)Badger said:

Actually (insert nerd voice). It was a card game, THEN a Tabletop like warhammer, THEN an RPG. And as of today the only thing in that IP still worth playing is the 4th Edition RPG. FFG bought the IP and, well, they destroyed the card game and made the RPG into a new one that uses Narrative dice and not d10's. Sigh. 

ahh I stand corrected. I never played it, did character creation but never got to play the game itself. I was playing a woman umm Daimyo? She was masquerading as a man, so she was in a dangerous situation. 

 

I never played the card game. I only recently got interested in card games, and despised them previously. Though I did play a somewhat simple one that was Bible based where you tried to damn the souls of your opponent while saving your own souls. haha

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Just now, Ver1dian said:

Your % quote.

Let me be a bit blunt here.

There will always be mouth breathers who cant assemble a build to carry a sortie who will complain Saryn is op.

I never understood why 'mouth breather' was an insult. Some people have a deviated septum, man! 😉 

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1 minute ago, (NSW)Badger said:

I never understood why 'mouth breather' was an insult. Some people have a deviated septum, man! 😉 

No offence, I was looking for the least banable expression 😕

Edited by Ver1dian
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2 minutes ago, Ver1dian said:

No offence, I was looking for the least banable expression 😕

none taken, I breathe through my nose. But I've got a good friend that, despite never having snorted anything ever, has a deviated septum. I was just teasing, anyway. 

Edited by (NSW)Badger
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IMHO, OP and some of those who support the idea and acknowledge there is a problem, while IMO there is none, are those types of people who like tedious combat, bullet sponge enemies, and grunting characters. I personally hated the Division and while spent quite a lot in Mass Effect Andromeda, did not really enjoy it mostly due to weak powers and spongy overleveled and dumb enemies.

 

WF does not have the best AI but surely you cannot say that powers are useless, well, unless facing a horde of nullifiers, or enemies are sponges, well, unless it is sortie Lephantis. So, yes, you can nerf Saryn, Mesa, Mag, Volt, Harrow, Loki (now, seriously, invisible and can run, wtf), Ivara (permanent invisibility is silly), Nidus, Valkyr, Rhino (he is too survivable), Nezha, Frost, Inaros, etc etc, nobody would remain to play the game apart from a few selected persistent fellows who really like to take it slow and put a grunting effort to kill level 20 enemies with end game maxed weapons, frames, and mods. So, no, thank you, I think you'll be enjoying this state of affairs on your own. 😉

Edited by akots
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1 minute ago, (NSW)Badger said:

none taken, I breathe through my nose. But I've got a good friend that, despite never having snorted anything ever, has a deviated septum. I was just teasing, anyway. 

Yeah, my GF's got the same, you always wonder if they're sighing at you or just breathing 😄

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9 minutes ago, Ver1dian said:

Your % quote.

Let me be a bit blunt here.

There will always be mouth breathers who cant assemble a build to carry a sortie who will complain Saryn is op.

If I can get 72% damage with Wu in Eso 8 vs a 26 Saryn, then you can buff your Rhino enough to get those 10 kills and not feel bored.

Well I didn't manipulate evidence like you for 1. That was from my observation. You instantly lose by lying.

I don't like saryn because even with their 26% damage she doesnt deserve or work for it

Edited by WoodedSkate89
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46 minutes ago, str4dlin said:

You almost bring an elaborated opinion. I disagree in many terms where I think you are not right, it my opinion. But the only I will mention is that sure you know the term "glass cannon". 

Nerf Saryn potential and u will have a very nice remind like every other warframe who ended in the oblivion box because nerf maze. Saryn is not broken in terms of numbers. Demonstrated. 

And well, I dont know if you played some before but If you have 2 years playing I dont know if you can give a solid opinion about foundation and initial mechanics. That have changed a lot and real toxic mechanics have been removed. Sadly not reworked in a satisfactory way the most, but Saryn. Saryn passed the rework and now she is perfect because bring us an active gameplay, not like she was before. And not for lvl 20 mobs. 

Everybody talk about how she kills lvl 20  mobs and nobody talk about what she is weak on. So it is not fair. 

And yes it is about fighting things, but it never was only a shooter. You have Cod or CS Go for shooting. Skills always existed, builds always existed and people crying always existed too.

 

I am aware of a glass cannon, yes. That is arguably what Saryn, and the majority of DPS frames, should be. However - Saryn not only has a self-heal augment, but it really doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things, because for many enemies die before they can capitalise on her fragility - beyond level 20 mind you, ESO starts at 60-70 and goes into Sortie Level, and that's where she's the most effective. Though, in fairness, the enemy density is much higher in ESO so it will allow her to maintain more, thus more damage overall. But that's besides the main point, like most of your post.

You've failed to address the main point with any real point. When I talk about the foundation of the game's mechanics, I don't mean at the code level, I mean at the gameplay, experiential level. How all the finished systems fit together in the players hands, not what bits of code rely on what. It's the concept of a 'core gameplay loop'.

In terms of the actual playing of the game, the primary activity is fighting. You don't need a PhD in game design or 6 years of experience to see that it's the main thing you do in Warframe. It's not really a hard sell to call that the foundation or core of the gameplay, regardless of how much it has changed. Mario has changed a hell of a lot, but platforming remains the core of his main series games. Despite all the mechanical shifts, the main thing the games are built on is still jumping, climbing and maneuvering around.

Similarly, despite all the shifts in gameplay, most of Warframes mechanics and systems come back to fighting stuff, sooner or later. Warframe is still recognisably the same game from its early day footage. That includes both weapons gameplay and abilities - they're both a part of the overall combat system. And in a game that's almost entirely about combat, flaws within that combat stack up. 

 

Ironically, my issues with Saryn specifically are fairly minimal. Unlike, say, pre-rework Resonating Quake Banshee, she actually does have a gameplay loop that's fun and interesting in its own right. Banshee was the definition of press 4 to win, Saryn is not. If Saryn was numerically tweaked so she didn't erase everything, but rather set up for big damage or left behind some heavier troops or some other variation on 'things can actually survive in her presence at mid to high level gameplay', she'd be A-ok in my opinion. I have no qualms about players being powerful, but trivialising, dodging or ignoring core gameplay loops only leads to more and more problems down the road. And that affects a lot more than just the voluptuous bioweapon.

Edited by Loza03
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1 minute ago, akots said:

IMHO, OP and some of those who support the idea and acknowledge there is a problem, while IMO there is none, are those types of people who like tedious combat, bullet sponge enemies, and grunting characters. I personally hated the Division and while spent quite a lot in Mass Effect Andromeda, did not really enjoy it mostly due to weak powers and spongy overleveled and dumb enemies.

 

WF does not have the best AI but surely you cannot say that powers are useless, well, unless facing a horde of nullifiers, or enemies are sponges, well, unless it is sortie Lephantis. So, yes, you can nerf Saryn, Mesa, Mag, Volt, Harrow, Loki (now, seriously, invisible and can run, wtf), Ivara (permanent invisibility is silly), Nidus, Valkyr, Rhino (he is too survivable), Nezha, Frost, Inaros, etc etc, nobody would remain to play the game apart from a few selected persistent fellows who really like to take it slow and put a grunting effort to kill level 20 enemies with end game maxed weapons, frame, and mods. So, no, thank you, I think you'll be enjoying this state of affairs on your own. 😉

I don't think there is a problem, necessarily, but many people do seem to think so. I can empathize. I think that Saryn is really in a good place, a place I wish more frames would find themselves. 
I think part of the problem is people not realizing that Saryn is just a tool at the end of the day. A great tool, but not the only one. It's not about the kills or the damage numbers at the end screen. It's about getting to the end screen faster, as a team. 

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1 minute ago, (NSW)Badger said:

I don't think there is a problem, necessarily, but many people do seem to think so. I can empathize. I think that Saryn is really in a good place, a place I wish more frames would find themselves. 
I think part of the problem is people not realizing that Saryn is just a tool at the end of the day. A great tool, but not the only one. It's not about the kills or the damage numbers at the end screen. It's about getting to the end screen faster, as a team. 

 

"as a team" 

 

As saryn does 80% of the damage and the rest of the team sighs as they barely get in a few kills. 

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4 minutes ago, WoodedSkate89 said:

Well I didn't manipulate evidence like you for 1. That was from my observation.

If you're regarding your quote as "evidence" I'd google FTFY before that space between your ears appears even more hollow.

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9 minutes ago, WoodedSkate89 said:

I don't like saryn because even with their 26% damage she doesnt deserve or work for it

Bot your Rhino is sooo deserving right?

 

Edited by Ver1dian
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6 minutes ago, Ver1dian said:

If you're regarding your quote as "evidence" I'd google FTFY before that space between your ears appears even more hollow.

Lets recap.

I make a non serious point about how many people care.

You then quote me (evidence) but you change the quote to something I didn't write. (By dictionary definition that is manipulating evidence.)

Then you proceed to make your point on that evidence. Meaning your whole point is a lie.

 

I did not change evidence. Because that was a guesstimate. 

Not my fault that you like no skill frames getting easy not earned kills because you refuse to learn the game mechanics

 

Edited by WoodedSkate89
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hace 31 minutos, (PS4)Bigboodyjuudy dijo:

 

Tried what. You didn't show me your build. Your build may not be the most effective (and its not, I've seen better). 

Yes, probably you have seen a build that can oneshoot in the same situation than mine. Show me please, guru. I want to be your little padawan. 

Just make me laught while crying when I read comments like this. 

The important is the concept of the images, not the build. So sad.

the simpsons rat GIF

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Just now, (PS4)Bigboodyjuudy said:

 

"as a team" 

 

As saryn does 80% of the damage and the rest of the team sighs as they barely get in a few kills. 

sure, but in a dedicated set up say you have 1-2 DPS frames, a healer/support frame and a tank...

that is, if warframe was like every other team composition game. I mean, take a 3 pokemon team: scizor is your tank AND DPS but falls apart if someone lights a match near it. So you use Toxapex to cover that weakness and inject status. But while Toxapex is a status tank it dies to Earthquake, one of the most common moves in VGC. So you throw in a Gliscor and Earthquakes can't even touch it because it is has the flying type, which is immune to the ground type move Earthquake. Each one of these mons is great on their own, but each can easily be taken care of with the right tools. But together they form a pretty unstoppable core. If warframe played more like this, with frames overlapping and strengthening each other, I think the DPS vs CC issue would be minor if not nonexistent. 

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Just now, str4dlin said:

Yes, probably you have seen a build that can oneshoot in the same situation than mine. Show me please, guru. I want to be your little padawan. 

Just make me laught while crying when I read comments like this. 

The important is the concept of the images, not the build. So sad.

the simpsons rat GIF

Just show us the build?

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12 minutes ago, (NSW)Badger said:

It's not about the kills or the damage numbers at the end screen. It's about getting to the end screen faster, as a team. 

Exactly my thinking. If you really care about kills and such and want to compete with Saryn, yes, sure, go ahead and try. It is possible, depending on actual mission. But if you don't want to lift a finger and put a serious effort into frame selection, weapon setup, tactics, and enemies, and stand with your Frost in the middle of your snow globe on top of that defense objective cryopod with your Braton and wondering where all the enemies are, well, too bad, sorry, this is not something that works. IMHO, looking at the end screen damage numbers and kills is plain silly. It does not matter, you all worked together in the mission, everything is shared, whatever works best is working for the team. So, this is childish and silly IMHO.

I played about 2.5K hours in Mass Effect 3 multiplayer which is probably the most competitive coop game ever made and never cared about these things. It all comes naturally. After about 1000 hours, you start topping the socreboard, after another 300 hours you can solo platinum, after 200 more hours you can outscore Turian Ghost with Harrier with your Human Adept even without thinking. The game design of WF permits any frame to shine depending on how it is played and what is the setup IMHO. It seems like people are just coming to the mission with wrong frame, wrong setup and wrong mindset while still striving to be competitive. It does not work like that.

Edited by akots
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3 minutes ago, WoodedSkate89 said:

Lets recap.

I make a non serious point about how many people care.

You then quote me (evidence) but you change the quote to something I didn't write. (By dictionary definition that is manipulating evidence.)

Then you proceed to make your point on that evidence. Meaning your whole point is a lie.

 

I did not change evidence. Because that was a guesstimate. 

Not my fault that you like no skill frames getting easy not earned kills

 

What you dont get is I have enough skill to match Saryn with half of my frames, so I defend her based on that and if you cant all I can say is "git gud".

Edited by Ver1dian
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Just now, Pandabarrel said:

This thread is so off topic now that it should really be closed, where the mods at?

how is it off topic.

We began discussing whether saryn should be nerfed. Then once we did we started discussing how she should be nerfed

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Just now, Ver1dian said:

What you dont get is I have enough skill to match Saryn with half of my frames, so I defend her based on that and if you cant all I can day is "git gud"

So can I. My point is that saryn is a trash frame with no skill and its disappointing to see new players go straight down the saryn train instead of learning the game mechanics

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Just now, WoodedSkate89 said:

So can I. My point is that saryn is a trash frame with no skill and its disappointing to see new players go straight down the saryn train instead of learning the game mechanics

Same could be said about rhino. 

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