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Can something be done about Saryn?


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Just now, WoodedSkate89 said:

You're not that special most people have

Just like 90% here explaining how they do hour long endless runs, easy to say on the forums.

If you actually had you'd not complain as much, simply put even if "most" have, the majority, including you are not on this topic.

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Just now, WoodedSkate89 said:

I'm not a rhino main I don't get where this is coming from. The profile picture on my account hasn't updated to the one I have in game.

I have the Tea Wrex thingy

Not learning game mechanics. Press iron skin and ignore the map. So players just grab rhino early and don’t learn the game. 

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Just now, Ver1dian said:

Just like 90% here explaining how they do hour long endless runs, easy to say on the forums.

If you actually had you'd not complain as much, simply put even if "most" have, the majority, including you are not on this topic.

I'm complaining that new players always go for saryn instead of a skill based frame. I use a volt prime and sonar banshee and I can push out like a 60% damage usually

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13 minutes ago, (PS4)Bigboodyjuudy said:

As saryn does 80% of the damage and the rest of the team sighs as they barely get in a few kills. 

The only thing that mean is that without Saryn, your mission will be 3-4 times longer and harder. IDK why you would want that. It is not that Saryn kills too fast, it is you who are killing too slow or with a wrong setup. 😉

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1 hour ago, WoodedSkate89 said:

I'm complaining that new players always go for saryn instead of a skill based frame. I use a volt prime and sonar banshee and I can push out like a 60% damage usually

Ofc you can on the forums.

And if you could in game, you wouldn't be complaining about Saryn.

Should I also mention the hipocracy of mentioning you use Volt? A frame I like very much as well tbh.

Oh, also, noobs go for Rhino, they even get in your way, especially evident in the index, because it has been explained to them they've got the "god frame" and noobs like those create threads like this, cuz how dare someone perform better than them.

This isnt a PvP twitch game to compare skill. How is spamming Atterax more skillful than using Saryn. Heck spamming discharge is easier.

Edited by Ver1dian
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3 minutes ago, Brey223 said:

Not learning game mechanics. Press iron skin and ignore the map. So players just grab rhino early and don’t learn the game. 

I have never been a rhino main. It's just the free pfp they give you. When i found out about promo codes, I used them to get a different glyph. The forums didn't update my profile for some reason

Plus that argument doesn't apply. Rhino's iron skin isn't good without iron shrapnel. New players don't have access to that cuz they need max standing in a syndicate

Edited by WoodedSkate89
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1 minute ago, akots said:

The only thing that mean is that without Saryn, your mission will be 3-4 times longer and harder. IDK why you would want that. It is not that Saryn kills too fast, it is you who are killing too slow or with a wrong setup. 😉

If missions are considerably harder without a nuker.

You're doing something wrong

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Just now, WoodedSkate89 said:

I have never been a rhino main. It's just the free pfp they give you

Plus that argument doesn't apply. Rhino's iron skin isn't good without iron shrapnel. New players don't have access to that cuz they need max standing in a syndicate

Iron skin is really good and it teaches bad habits. 

Everyone has a knee jerk reaction to something and call for obliterating what the frame does. I’ve said it earlier in this thread but the only issue that could be considered an issue with saryn is the 4x damage boost from enemies being effected by both spores and miasma. If you look at the numbers there is nothing about what she does that’s explosive. 

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6 hours ago, str4dlin said:

stuff

I made the exact same point earlier in the thread: she falls off in higher levels. but then I made another point: almost no one does level 150 content and DE doesn't develop around it. 99% of content is sub lvl 120, and Saryn absolutely wrecks it. but yeah, there are much better frames for that 1% of the content lol.

Edited by Ikyr0
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1 minute ago, Brey223 said:

Iron skin is really good and it teaches bad habits. 

Everyone has a knee jerk reaction to something and call for obliterating what the frame does. I’ve said it earlier in this thread but the only issue that could be considered an issue with saryn is the 4x damage boost from enemies being effected by both spores and miasma. If you look at the numbers there is nothing about what she does that’s explosive. 

It only gives like 2k armor unmodded. And new players usually don't know to research their builds and get the right mods and augments

I agree with the second paragraph though. The synergy between her 1 and 4 are OP

Edited by WoodedSkate89
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12 minutes ago, EmberStar said:

I'm surprised they didn't kill it outright, honestly.

triple post. damn. I only pressed it once. I guess the thread really wants a riot 😉

Edited by (NSW)Badger
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Just now, (NSW)Badger said:

Everyone's gone for the holiday! Riot! 😉 

They're not closing it because everyone has been respectful (not really but in the bounds of their user policy) and it has remained relevant to the subject matter.

In fact there has been multiple cases where someone has made an unrelated point and said 

Quote

but that's a different matter

or

Quote

I won't go into that now

 

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2 minutes ago, akots said:

IMHO, OP and some of those who support the idea and acknowledge there is a problem, while IMO there is none, are those types of people who like tedious combat, bullet sponge enemies, and grunting characters. I personally hated the Division and while spent quite a lot in Mass Effect Andromeda, did not really enjoy it mostly due to weak powers and spongy overleveled and dumb enemies.

 

WF does not have the best AI but surely you cannot say that powers are useless, well, unless facing a horde of nullifiers, or enemies are sponges, well, unless it is sortie Lephantis. So, yes, you can nerf Saryn, Mesa, Mag, Volt, Harrow, Loki (now, seriously, invisible and can run, wtf), Ivara (permanent invisibility is silly), Nidus, Valkyr, Rhino (he is too survivable), Nezha, Frost, Inaros, etc etc, nobody would remain to play the game apart from a few selected persistent fellows who really like to take it slow and put a grunting effort to kill level 20 enemies with end game maxed weapons, frame, and mods. So, no, thank you, I think you'll be enjoying this state of affairs on your own. 😉

Ironically a majority of the bullet sponges and tedious play we've gotten in the game are in response to things being over powered so...yeah. I personally only care about combat being engaging, and that I have enough to do during play that my mind doesn't go completely idle (which actually prevents things from feeling tedious), and that's why I share no fondness for such a gameplay erasing level of power dominance kit design. That frames are so powerful you can go full missions without seeing a majority of the enemies you've killed, that seems a point of concern for me, more so when the people playing with you may not see them at all. 

In regards to powers being impactful, that isn't really tied to nukes existing -most of your list aren't nukes- quite the contrary actually given how many ability nullification factors are in the game nowadays. Having too much power means it has to be restricted, if you aren't comfortable with just a down scaling of the ability itself, DE have to find other ways to play down the abilities effects,  and presently they have found it in just full scale ability nullification/immunity, which seems like the worse version to me if you're in the game for the ability use, and it comes down on all frames not just over performers. Also don't confuse people taking issue with being able to clear entire rooms in an instant with wanting extremely slow paced tactical combat, those are two extremely different things, and people do not exist solely in extremes. 

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hace 47 minutos, Loza03 dijo:

I am aware of a glass cannon, yes. That is arguably what Saryn, and the majority of DPS frames, should be. However - Saryn not only has a self-heal augment, but it really doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things, because for many enemies die before they can capitalise on her fragility - beyond level 20 mind you, ESO starts at 60-70 and goes into Sortie Level, and that's where she's the most effective. Though, in fairness, the enemy density is much higher in ESO so it will allow her to maintain more, thus more damage overall. But that's besides the main point, like most of your post.

You've failed to address the main point with any real point. When I talk about the foundation of the game's mechanics, I don't mean at the code level, I mean at the gameplay, experiential level. How all the finished systems fit together in the players hands, not what bits of code rely on what. It's the concept of a 'core gameplay loop'.

In terms of the actual playing of the game, the primary activity is fighting. You don't need a PhD in game design or 6 years of experience to see that it's the main thing you do in Warframe. It's not really a hard sell to call that the foundation or core of the gameplay, regardless of how much it has changed. Mario has changed a hell of a lot, but platforming remains the core of his main series games. Despite all the mechanical shifts, the main thing the games are built on is still jumping, climbing and maneuvering around.

Similarly, despite all the shifts in gameplay, most of Warframes mechanics and systems come back to fighting stuff, sooner or later. Warframe is still recognisably the same game from its early day footage. That includes both weapons gameplay and abilities - they're both a part of the overall combat system. And in a game that's almost entirely about combat, flaws within that combat stack up. 

 

Ironically, my issues with Saryn specifically are fairly minimal. Unlike, say, pre-rework Resonating Quake Banshee, she actually does have a gameplay loop that's fun and interesting in its own right. Banshee was the definition of press 4 to win, Saryn is not. If Saryn was numerically tweaked so she didn't erase everything, but rather set up for big damage or left behind some heavier troops or some other variation on 'things can actually survive in her presence at mid to high level gameplay', she'd be A-ok in my opinion. I have no qualms about players being powerful, but trivialising, dodging or ignoring core gameplay loops only leads to more and more problems down the road. And that affects a lot more than just the voluptuous bioweapon.

Saryn augment is useless or remplaced easy by operator arcanes. First.

About AOE damage, for what is needed to apply corrosive first or have a premade team the thing is that is what saryn is made for. 
Also consider we exist players that don't play only 8 rounds and we like to beat ourselves. Same can be applied to all endless content. Sorties is not the end-game. Sorties can be done solo for players that don't want to find a Saryn (If we suppose eveyone uses, what is a lie, but well. Since alse she needs specific conditions) Same that you bring loki, octavia, wukong or whatever for Spy.


About the foundation of game mechanic I ve said here yet and I repeat that this is not a static game. And the future bring us more challenges and harder content. So the evolution should be to be stronger. 

about fighting mechanics I agree those are needed. But then, pick your Saryn, and don't go that far. Go Mot in Void and do a survival being stopped pressing your skills. For 30-40 minutes. Not need more. Bring me results.Say then that Saryn doesn't need to fight and constantly move and shoot. She is not godlike.

About Banshee it wasn't about the damage, it wasn't about the kills. It was because she was doing the game slower because she stop the mobs from comming. And not because she was killing them fast like Saryn in low-level, since a fast nova with an amprex was faster than having a Banshee, for rushing. Was called toxic gameplay.  And her damage was plain. And the 4th skill had not another purpose,And...and..and.. little difference from Saryn. Banshee had not a fighting mechanic as you said and really she hadn't a defined mechanic, Im glad you dont compare them. (If somebody doing, return Mot in Void).

And well about numbers my friend, I just need to link again the simulacrum: (For people asking, the build is based on range, the build of Saryn, with overextended and with blind rage and umbra intensify strength mods) I wont link because I dont find it needed since everyone can try by themselves.

https://gyazo.com/ccf95561e64b7dba5dcfd0509fc37229

https://gyazo.com/c93fe8907a9b0bfca73c4ce704e344d7

She does not erase all if you not apply a fighting mechanic. And still she needs time. And she is weak. So she has the perfect definition of glass cannon. What I like.

And if in the other hand she can rush low content and somebody doesnt like always he/she can solo that content or play with friends. Becase she is not the only. Gara, Volt or Equinox (I miss a bunch) can do it same. But numbers really are in the side of "Saryn is fine". Not needed videos everybody can check for themselves. Range? 20 meters. Damage by procs (150/sec) and not high. With the counter that she needs to be played for range (Overextended) what it does you have to sacrifice also the strength.

To compare, Gara has a base dmg of 800. Equinox can stack infinite damage, well. That now I mention with a similar fighting mechanic of what Saryn has.

Regards.

Edited by str4dlin
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30 minutes ago, str4dlin said:

Yes, probably you have seen a build that can oneshoot in the same situation than mine. Show me please, guru. I want to be your little padawan. 

Just make me laught while crying when I read comments like this. 

The important is the concept of the images, not the build. So sad.

the simpsons rat GIF

 

Why cant you just show us the build. It would take you like a minute to screenshot and show it. 

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8 minutes ago, Aldain said:

...I leave for five minutes and some chucklehead is now complaining that Rhino is a noob frame.

What is this forum smoking and why aren't they sharing?!

I didn't wanna get into a rhino argument so I settled. But he isn't. Without correct modding he blocks like 1k damage with iron skin. A noob would not know how to mod him correctly

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