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MrRixter

Can something be done about Saryn?

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Just now, goatwin said:

Of course, there are other options. But i'm talking about the better option. The one where we don't need to constantly exit games or spend valuable time in lfg instead of playing: make it so no playstyle is at the cost of anybody elses playstyle.

So the "homogenize everything so it fits within my preferred playstyle" option. Not sure I'd call that one the "better" one because there is always going to be someone who doesn't like X playstyle. If we keep playing to the lowest common denominator there won't be anything left and god forbid someone take offense to you or your friends play style cause whelp then that's gotta go~

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2 minutes ago, (PS4)ErydisTheLucario said:

And to this day he still waits for his carry...

I just don't wanna quit my game to carry a MR2

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18 minutes ago, WoodedSkate89 said:

I just don't wanna quit my game to carry a MR2

Im just messing guy, I know what it is. I dont primarily play warframe myself.

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so yeah. Saryn is a divisive frame. So strange that this thread is still going. 

Either they will nerf her or bring up the other frames or, more likely, do nothing. I think the HOW of reworking her abilities is more important than the WHY. It is easy to suggest a nerf or a buff, much harder to propose a difference. I've seen some good examples here like get rid of the x4 damage with Miasma on those with Spores. But I've seen just as much: she's just too good, make her suck like ember (not verbatim but you see where I'm coming from- some people just hate her with no recourse.).

Why is DPS so controversial in a PVE CO-OP game? Do people really care how many kills they get? Some of my favorites runs were with EV Trinity, and she doesn't do much damage without weapons. I don't feel upset or deflated when I'm outclassed in damage or kills. I can see how others would, though. But just because you didn't lead kills it doesn't mean that you suck or are incompetent or on the wrong track with your builds. Like in life you take a step back, analyze then move forward better off than before.

Perhaps the role of each frames should be better defined, and folks should remember that games are fun. If Saryn is ruining your fun I understand. It can be easy to get your self-worth tied up with your success at hobbies. 

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Posted (edited)
25 minutes ago, Oreades said:

So the "homogenize everything so it fits within my preferred playstyle" option. Not sure I'd call that one the "better" one because there is always going to be someone who doesn't like X playstyle. If we keep playing to the lowest common denominator there won't be anything left and god forbid someone take offense to you or your friends play style cause whelp then that's gotta go~

Where did i ask for such dramatic change such as homogenizing everything? Going for Logical fallacy eh.  classic.  Warframe is already full of diverse playstyles that nobody have a problem with. And how is the argument that there will always be others that don't like playstyle-x, counters the argument that playstyle-x nullifies playstyles A-z?

Ps. I Doubt my playstyle is ever going to get axed.  

Edited by goatwin
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4 minutes ago, WoodedSkate89 said:

Hildryn

Rhino

Frost

Oberon

Wukong

Zephyr

Wisp

 

You might disagree with some of those

To be honest I'm all about taking a frame and trying to make it work how I want. The result is usually a build designed to speed up and trivialize gameplay because I'm playing to farm .

As for the list I don't use Hildryn and Wukong but

With Rhino, Frost and Oberon I build them to maximise their 4th, so basically I just spam one button (and Rhino's armor) to nuke the map with them. For example (I believe I posted it in this thread at some point) I had an encounter with a Saryn a few days back on Hydron where I ended up teasing her by nuking the map with my frost as soon as she landed her spores.

I used to spam Zephyr but now I've been using her to skip the wires during the Ropalolyst fight. Between her and my Operator they trivialize the fight a bit.

As for Wisp. I had crit, speedy, spin2win heavy sword builds going as it was, Wisp's speed just makes it crazier. I also partner her up with the Cyanex which is a deadly weapon without added speed. Her 4th while not the best DPS ability is still deadly especially down halls. After the Survival arbitration I did with her last week she might be one of my main frames for a while.

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52 minutes ago, WoodedSkate89 said:

Not how it works... Think about your arguments before presenting.

Some frames require skill and others do not.

A frame with an "I Win" button does not require skill.

Frames which require harder builds and use of abilities. Do require skill.

 

Obviously 

Nothing in this game requires any skill at all.  If you think it does you are wrong.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, InfinitusPhoenix said:

Players leave the game because of Saryn.

Do you have any proof to substantiate this load of crap?

54 minutes ago, WoodedSkate89 said:

Some frames require skill and others do not.

And you think Saryn requires less skill than your tank frames?

I play mainly Garuda, so I'm better than you fyi.

 

1 hour ago, goatwin said:

 if it didn't force them to put down their controller/mouse and watch the clock tick. 

In my ~1.5k hours I've never seen someone complain about this when I go Saryn, but I have been told to up my game and spam more.

 

I said it before and I'll say it again. If you picked a damage frame and cant compete with a Saryn, like it or not you suck. Thank god the game allows every cabage to reach "end game" state.

Edited by Ver1dian
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11 minutes ago, (NSW)Badger said:

so yeah. Saryn is a divisive frame. So strange that this thread is still going. 

Either they will nerf her or bring up the other frames or, more likely, do nothing. I think the HOW of reworking her abilities is more important than the WHY. It is easy to suggest a nerf or a buff, much harder to propose a difference. I've seen some good examples here like get rid of the x4 damage with Miasma on those with Spores. But I've seen just as much: she's just too good, make her suck like ember (not verbatim but you see where I'm coming from- some people just hate her with no recourse.).

Why is DPS so controversial in a PVE CO-OP game? Do people really care how many kills they get? Some of my favorites runs were with EV Trinity, and she doesn't do much damage without weapons. I don't feel upset or deflated when I'm outclassed in damage or kills. I can see how others would, though. But just because you didn't lead kills it doesn't mean that you suck or are incompetent or on the wrong track with your builds. Like in life you take a step back, analyze then move forward better off than before.

Perhaps the role of each frames should be better defined, and folks should remember that games are fun. If Saryn is ruining your fun I understand. It can be easy to get your self-worth tied up with your success at hobbies. 

While I wouldnt want saryn to end up like ember, I do think the main problem is not really losing to kill count, i think its losing time. when someone log in to the game with the intent of having fun for a a few sessions, spending just 3 games with saryn nuking the map completely takes away the content these people expect to get in this game,  which is to shoot something kill something.

Although i wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the proponents for a saryn nerf are just salty for not getting the higher kills. 

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33 minutes ago, WoodedSkate89 said:

I just don't wanna quit my game to carry a MR2

I'm still calling your bluff.
I want to see this Frost carry to 8 waves at ESO. True skill!

But luckily for you I have to leave in about 40 minutes to have lunch with some friends before work. But to be sure, I'll be back on after work. And tomorrow morning also. And every other day after that. Still want that true skill carry.

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9 minutes ago, uAirsaid:

I'm still calling your bluff.
I want to see this Frost carryto 8 waves at ESO. True skill!

But luckily for you I have to leave in about 40 minutes to have lunch with some friends before work. But to be sure, I'll be back on after work. And tomorrow morning also. And every other day after that. Still want that true skill carry.

And jumping around pressing 1 1 11 111 1 111 1 1 takes more skill?

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7 minutes ago, Ver1dian said:

In my ~1.5k hours I've never seen someone complain about this when I go Saryn, but I have been told to up my game and spam more.

 

I said it before and I'll say it again. If you picked a damage frame and cant compete with a Saryn, like it or not you suck. Thank god the game allows every cabage to reach "end game" state.

In my 2k hours playing this game, i too had never see anyone complain about saryn directly in chat, but neither have I seen anyone complain about limbo back when you couldn't roll out of the void. Even I never said anything back then to the limbo trolls who once in a while would just invade your game to banish you until you fail the mission. These things doesn't mean nobody has a problem with them. 

 

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1 hour ago, WoodedSkate89 said:

True. But salty saryn mains will leave the game if she gets nerfed

Edit: And honestly I don't care about saryn enough to leave the game. I'd just rather her be fixed.

If people leave a game because of saryn even though 10 other frames do the same role for less effort. Nobody's gonna miss those players.

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Posted (edited)
21 minutes ago, sungod1 said:

Nothing in this game requires any skill at all.  If you think it does you are wrong.

Well that statement has so much wrong with it I cba to begin

21 minutes ago, Ver1dian said:

Do you have any proof to substantiate this load of crap?

I feel that is an overstatement 

 And you think Saryn requires less skill than your tank frames?

Lets think. 

Saryn mains press 2 buttons and get easy DPS

Other tankier or more skilled frames require complex builds, multiple balanced synergys and good players.

Don't even begin to say Saryn has skill because you instantly lose.

I play mainly Garuda, so I'm better than you fyi.

I'm not familiar with her abilities but you can't really say you're better than someone without playing with them or seeing them play. (I know Imma regret saying that, MR5s dont count)

 

15 minutes ago, uAir said:

I'm still calling your bluff.
I want to see this Frost carry to 8 waves at ESO. True skill!

But luckily for you I have to leave in about 40 minutes to have lunch with some friends before work. But to be sure, I'll be back on after work. And tomorrow morning also. And every other day after that. Still want that true skill carry.

Jesus H Christ.

I DO NOT WANT TO CARRY YOU. I AM IN THE MIDDLE OF A GAME. I AM NOT LEAVING A GAME I ENJOY TO CARRY SOME MR 5 IN ESO. JUST BECAUSE YOU ARE INCAPABLE TO MAKE A BUILD WITH A FRAME THAT ACTUALLY REQUIRES SKILL BECAUSE YOU HAVEN'T GOTTEN PAST MR6. DOESN'T MEAN I HAVE TO DROP EVERYTHING TO PROVE TO YOU SOMETHING MOST PEOPLE CAN DO

 

I have one thing to say to you and I know it's old but in this case it really applies here.

Git gud

Edited by WoodedSkate89

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3 minutes ago, stormy505 said:

If people leave a game because of saryn even though 10 other frames do the same role for less effort. Nobody's gonna miss those players.

name them

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, goatwin said:

In my 2k hours playing this game, i too had never see anyone complain about saryn directly in chat, but neither have I seen anyone complain about limbo back when you couldn't roll out of the void. Even I never said anything back then to the limbo trolls who once in a while would just invade your game to banish you until you fail the mission. These things doesn't mean nobody has a problem with them. 

 

Are you telling me all those Rhinos, Limbos and Inari (Inaroses?) In ESO with unleveled weapons wanted to do damage 😮 . My world view is shattered

Edited by Ver1dian
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Posted (edited)
31 minutes ago, goatwin said:

Where did i ask for such dramatic change such as homogenizing everything? Going for Logical fallacy eh.  classic.  Warframe is already full of diverse playstyles that nobody have a problem with. And how is the argument that there will always be others that don't like playstyle-x, counters the argument that playstyle-x nullifies playstyles A-z?

Ps. I Doubt my playstyle is ever going to get axed.  

No I'm going for the "it's never going to be enough until it's gone" truth. 

They will never be able to nerf AoE abilities sufficiently to make people like your friend happy without making them so ineffective that they have all but removed them from the game. As long as they are even mediocrely effective they will be "too much" and it will just be another Nerf Saryn thread because someone will decide that (Insert Nuke frame) is OP or Unfair or whatever angle they decide to approach from.

When the answer is and has always been to simply not group with frames you don't like and or accept the fact that not every PUG group is going to live up you your playstyle standards because ..... it's a PUG group, ya get what ya get. If you want specifics LFG.

Much like the answer to challenge in Warframe is a harsh and simple "don't redline your builds 4head" but that doesn't stop everyone who can redline their build from redlining their build at all times and coming to the forums to complain that the content is "too easy" because they CHOSE to cheese it and pigheadedly refuse to do anything but continue to cheese the content. 

Edited by Oreades

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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, WoodedSkate89 said:

Saryn mains press 2 buttons and get easy DPS

Other tankier or more skilled frames require complex builds, multiple balanced synergys and good players.

Don't even begin to say Saryn has skill because you instantly lose.

Which of the frames you mentioned you can carry with have this complex build? Rhino? 

Is spamming IS skill?

And since aparently Saryn's build is simple, would you mind compiling one?

So far everything you've said has led me to believe you lack fundamental knowledge of the game.

Edited by Ver1dian
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Woe is me, a Saryn carried me through a Sortie. Nerf now!

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38 minutes ago, Oreades said:

Again we are back to, why? 

Disproportionate abilities offer different playstyles and the end user is always in charge of the playstyle that they prefer

Why? Well, it's simple - you even cite one of the reasons yourself:

39 minutes ago, Oreades said:

If ever there was a fight that deserved to be invalidated it is the Profit Taker fight, Tho interestingly enough based on how I've seen people classify challenge in the past, it wastes a non insignificant amount of my time therefore it is still "challenging" at least according to the "time required to complete = challenge" school of thought. Not that I agree with that and it's still a miserable fight but at least I never have to go back to it, until the next time Nightwave forces me to. 

Because Profit-Taker wasn't made in isolation. She was made with immunity to CC and nuke strategies, and with tons of magnetic procs to reduce player energy as much as possible. She's even immune to Shattering Impact to make her as resistant as possible to our disproportionate power levels. She didn't crawl up from the pits of bad game design fully-formed, she was built in response to the issues with the core gameplay loop. Same with the Wolf, Exploiter and Ropalolyst. 

Compare this with great boss fights from other games. Vergil, SA2 Shadow, the Cyberdemon, Rathalos - they all embrace the core gameplay loop with love and affection.

 

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: this is a game about fighting things. If we can mess with that core gameplay loop, as we do with impunity in Warframe, then no matter the short-term benefits it comes right back around to punish us later.

51 minutes ago, Oreades said:

Disproportionate abilities offer different playstyles and the end user is always in charge of the playstyle that they prefer

Scout and Heavy aren't disproportionately out of balance with each other, but they have massively different playstyles. Same for V and Dante in DMC5, or Charge Blade and Heavy Bowgun in Monster Hunter. Hell, Limbo with max range and Limbo with minimum range in Warframe right now have different playstyles and they have the exact same moveset with different properties.

We don't need to throw balance out the window to encourage individual playstyles. If anything, a more balanced game encourages more individual experimentation since there's fewer ways that totally outclass others. See also: the CC debate in Warframe. CC is certainly useful and in the infinite, hard CC variety even just as gameplay-avoiding, but because it's a less-direct way to the same result it's seen as dramatically inferior.

1 hour ago, Oreades said:

And yet I don't play Dynasty Warridors because I find it to be horrible and boring. 

Sooo just keep slathering the game with enemies that completely invalidate Warframe abilities and weapon effects until it's just what? Another run of the mill cover based shooter? 

Strawman and slippery slope in the same point, cool.

No, quite the opposite. Whilst such enemies do have a place in moderation (which I explicitly say in the part you quote), abilities should be instead brought in line so they're not snapping the game in two to the point where such enemies Warframe retains ability gameplay. They can exist without snapping the game in two. Kid Icarus manages it with its powers system, as wildly different from Warframe as it may be.

And as for you not liking Dynasty Warriors, Warframe regardless isn't 1:1 comparison by any stretch. There's tons of other games and horde modes that many people really enjoy. TF2's Mann Vs Machine mode, Halo Firefight, Splatoon's Salmon Run even. Or - once again - even Warframe itself when you're not abusing abilities with the Nox and Bursa enemies.

1 hour ago, Oreades said:

We already choose how you tackle the encounter based on the weapon and frames that you select and group with. You can do things the difficult way full of hard fought challenge or you can do things the easy way by leveraging more of the games mechanics. How do you think endurance runs get done? Cause it's by leveraging mechanics that break the game but people still consider the application to be a skill. 

Just because something takes skill to pull off (and, honestly, I question that for some endurance strats like Octavia's 'T-Bag in a corner forever' method, but that's beside the point) doesn't mean it's not broken. What makes something broken is the outcome.

For Warframe, the OP things that let players circumvent gameplay are causing big problems with the economy, with the duration and quality of content and with the co-operative elements of the game, along with probably a bunch of other smaller aspects as well. This ought to be addressed.

1 hour ago, Oreades said:

Embrace the chaos, enjoy the ride and if you find a playstyle you don't like, don't engage with it but don't try to nerf it until it fit's into yours.

Again: characters being OP is not required for them to have or facilitate different playstyles.

1 hour ago, Oreades said:

I think the most frustrating thing in these forums (and this is a bit of a tangent) is reading complaints that the game is too easy, knowing full well that Warframe is a game where the player has full control of the difficulty. They are CHOOSING to play in a manor that they don't enjoy and then refusing to use the tools they HAVE at their disposal to play in a way they do. It's like watching someone with peanut allergies who just absolutely refuses to stop eating peanuts and keeps petitioning for a region wide peanut ban. 

The devs cannot rely on self-regulation to design tough content. They have to make hard content around the highest denominator. Which, again, is how we get stuff like Profit Taker, or floods of ability nullification, which hurts everyone.

Seriously, imagine if DE came out and said "We want Arbitrations to be hard, so we have to humbly request everyone not bring frames that can take so much damage they'll never die at conventional levels. Please?"

1 hour ago, Oreades said:

Or since I'm into tangential analogies the old Minecraft Forums back when I read them, there was almost always a thread about how Mojang NEEDED to nerf dirt blocks because someone was offended at the very notion that while they had build this huge stone castle of granditude, someone somewhere else, not even in their game.... was having just as much fun and all they built was but a lowly house out of dirt blocks. 

As I've said before, there will always be people complaining for selfish reasons. That's not a reason to dismiss actual criticism.

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1 hour ago, InfinitusPhoenix said:

Mixed means a nerf. 

If Paying Players & Continuously Playing Players leave the game because of Saryn. DE will obviously nerf her. That's the only logical option.

Fixed that for you.

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20 minutes ago, WoodedSkate89 said:

Jesus H Christ.

I DO NOT WANT TO CARRY YOU. I AM IN THE MIDDLE OF A GAME. I AM NOT LEAVING A GAME I ENJOY TO CARRY SOME MR 5 IN ESO. JUST BECAUSE YOU ARE INCAPABLE TO MAKE A BUILD WITH A FRAME THAT ACTUALLY REQUIRES SKILL BECAUSE YOU HAVEN'T GOTTEN PAST MR6. DOESN'T MEAN I HAVE TO DROP EVERYTHING TO PROVE TO YOU SOMETHING MOST PEOPLE CAN DO

 

I have one thing to say to you and I know it's old but in this case it really applies here.

Git gud

Yeah, I acknowledge that you're in a game. I also acknowledge you're still here posting while playing that other game. I also opened it up and said we can do it at your convenience anytime in the near future. You don't have to drop everything. Just when you can. I would think that with this easy chance to prove me wrong, and with the fervor with which you've defended yourself on the forums here, that you would jump at the opportunity to punch me right in my optimism and prove your words. So it's either that you cannot or you will not. And as of right now, I'm thinking you can't is a stronger argument than you won't.

You say you prefer frames that takes true skill to play and that you run all this content with your true skill frames. I want to see your skill in action. Take me through 8 waves of ESO with your Frost and let me see that skill in action. And why do you keep changing my MR?

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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, Chappie1975 said:

Fixed that for you.

What paying player or one that spends tons of hours a day on this game will leave just because one frame got a nerf?

That's just pathetic. 

 

In WF you use different frames for different situations. And players with mr20+ are playing this game 24/7 anyway. Some nerf of one of their favorite frames will only make them quit the game for a couple of days at most. And when they cool off they will come back. Like they always do. Because Warframe is their life. No matter how sad it sounds.

Edited by InfinitusPhoenix
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