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Can something be done about Saryn?

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3 minutes ago, WoodedSkate89 said:

Omd no they don't. In MY opinion, saryn's are trash. You are allowed to think differently. Most players can outbuild a saryn. It's really not that hard.

My issue is...

(Just gonna take a moment to say he hasn't read what I've been saying before)

Even on their 20% damage they do not deserve it. Please read my post before responding. It helps both of us.

I don't care if it's nerfed or not, not enough to make me leave the game. I just rather it would.

 

Also calling me a "tool" is the equivalent of a year 2 calling someone a poopyhead

Ah I get your point now. I agree.

No no no, I get you perfectly, now please provide the screen where you do 60-80% with Hildryn and a Saryn does 20.

My opinion is that you are trash and full of it at that.

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, WoodedSkate89 said:

Tbh I like frames that have abilities that support what you're doing with your weapons without taking over and doing everything for you. Unfortunately, there's no frame dedicated to that. (To my knowledge), some frames have one or two abilities like that. And that's why I use them

Like Rhino or Loki. But in the end it's almost the same as playing with Saryn (atleast she moves around a lot unlike other nukers that stand in one place and press their 4).

Spamming E or casual pew pew (you don't even need to aim with most weapons).

Edited by InfinitusPhoenix

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, WoodedSkate89 said:

Tbh I like frames that have abilities that support what you're doing with your weapons without taking over and doing everything for you. Unfortunately, there's no frame dedicated to that. (To my knowledge), some frames have one or two abilities like that. And that's why I use them

And yet in your entire list of tanks and wisp, which you play there wasn't a trace of Harrow.

You play the worst offenders, face tankers with timers, not much different than a CoD single player.

Edited by Ver1dian

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Not surprised to see this thread still going but isn’t it time to switch to the “Speedrunners are ruining Warframe” one? Or maybe “Mesa is ruining my enjoyment of the game.”

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2 minutes ago, InfinitusPhoenix said:

Like Rhino or Loki. But in the end it's almost the same as playing with Saryn (atleast she moves around a lot unlike other nukers that stand in one place and press their 4).

Spamming E or casual pew pew (you don't even need to aim with most weapons).

True

2 minutes ago, Ver1dian said:

No no no, I get you perfectly, now please provide the screen where you do 60-80% with Hildryn and a Saryn does 20.

My opinion is that you are trash and full of it at that.

Next time i am in a lobby with a saryn. I will

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1 minute ago, Ver1dian said:

And yet in your entire list of tanks and wisp, which you play there wasn't a trace of Harrow.

You play the worst offenders, face tankers with timers, not much different than a CoD single player.

Because I do not own Harrow. I mainly stick to the frames I like and don't really expand.

 

So Rhino is the worst offender? Jesus you naive child. Doesn't even know the nova, banshee, gara, garuda builds which can destroy in DPS.

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Just now, WoodedSkate89 said:

So Rhino is the worst offender? Jesus you naive child. Doesn't even know the nova, banshee, gara, garuda builds which can destroy in DPS.

You can't get more no-skill than that, Rhino is trash on AoE dps, but if you can't even get what issue frames like Rhino and Inaros have you really have 0 game knowledge.

No wonder Rhino is often referred to as crutch prime btw.

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1 minute ago, Ver1dian said:

You can't get more no-skill than that, Rhino is trash on AoE dps, but if you can't even get what issue frames like Rhino and Inaros have you really have 0 game knowledge.

No wonder Rhino is often referred to as crutch prime btw.

Bruh a saryn main is trying to say rhino has no skill

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1 minute ago, WoodedSkate89 said:

Bruh a saryn main is trying to say rhino has no skill

What part of 31 umbral builds don't you get?

Im just not some trash tier tank only player who gets his e-peen stomped on by a dps frame and cry about it like a dog.

What happens next time when an Equinox makes you feel little as well?

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1 minute ago, WoodedSkate89 said:

Bruh a saryn main is trying to say rhino has no skill

you press 2+3. then usually use a weapon like ignis wraith to wipe mobs while pressing W.

warframe in general doesn't have a lot of complex in game mechanics to begin with. its mostly about knowing how to mod.

like all warframes are limited to four abilities so saying a frame only uses 1 + 4 as an insult (which saryn really doesn't tbh, most use the third ability to spread spores and the second ability as a healing mechanic, unless they have other ways of healing via arcanes or mods.) doesn't really make sense.

if we're bringing in movement keys as buttons we press. then dps and support frames do it far more then tank frames. cause they need to work for their survival in higher level missions.

and if we're going to say. m1/m2. how do you think saryn spreads spores.

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hace 1 hora, Ryim_Drykeon dijo:
hace 1 hora, WoodedSkate89 dijo:

Most people don't like saryn.

 

hace 1 hora, Ryim_Drykeon dijo:

Ahahahahahahahahahaha.....Good one.

4X5y4DN.png

See that spike in the middle of the graph?


Nice one. Very nice one. So new players dont understand saryn. What more this thread needs? 

Also.. Atlas, Zephir, And also Nyx.. that cute and lovely.. :😭

Also... I think wukong is scaling in the table, I like it.

Thanks for the graph!

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11 minutes ago, stormy505 said:

you press 2+3. then usually use a weapon like ignis wraith to wipe mobs while pressing W.

I'm not a rhino main. But he does require skill. And I use a soma prime or a paris prime. (Weapons that require aim)

warframe in general doesn't have a lot of complex in game mechanics to begin with. its mostly about knowing how to mod.

True


like all warframes are limited to four abilities so saying a frame only uses 1 + 4 as an insult (which saryn really doesn't tbh, most use the third ability to spread spores and the second ability as a healing mechanic, unless they have other ways of healing via arcanes or mods.) doesn't really make sense.
They don't really need to use the third if their build is good enough. I get the second ability. 
if we're bringing in movement keys as buttons we press. then dps and support frames do it far more then tank frames. cause they need to work for their survival in higher level missions.

and if we're going to say. m1/m2. how do you think saryn spreads spores.

Reach mods

 

19 minutes ago, Ver1dian said:

What part of 31 umbral builds don't you get?

Im just not some trash tier tank only player who gets his e-peen stomped on by a dps frame and cry about it like a dog.

What happens next time when an Equinox makes you feel little as well?

OK I'm sick of repeating myself.

I don't get outdamaged

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This thread has gone from "Topical" to "Hilarious" to "Disappointing" to "Just plain sad" pretty fast.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Because Profit-Taker wasn't made in isolation. She was made with immunity to CC and nuke strategies, and with tons of magnetic procs to reduce player energy as much as possible. She's even immune to Shattering Impact to make her as resistant as possible to our disproportionate power levels. She didn't crawl up from the pits of bad game design fully-formed, she was built in response to the issues with the core gameplay loop. Same with the Wolf, Exploiter and Ropalolyst. 

Compare this with great boss fights from other games. Vergil, SA2 Shadow, the Cyberdemon, Rathalos - they all embrace the core gameplay loop with love and affection.

The Profit Taker was ill concieved in a very algorithmic fashion that felt like they where strait up trying to counter players point for point instead of trying to craft a fun/engaging fight. That wasn't going to turn out well even if players weren't "over powered" because the mindset behind that fight just felt all wrong.

The wolf was more of a gotcha, That also felt like people where first and formost looking at metrics before they where looking at making an interesting encounter.

The exploiter started moving in the correct direction by making powers less of a focus and shifting to mechanics and the Rapadapalopolyst almost gets us there in a cohesive encounter. It skirts powers for the most part but does so in an engaging way unlike the Profit taker that simply shuts you down and then throws all the knockdown at you because everyone enjoys being continually stunlocked.

As for the games you listed that "embrace" the game loop, while I'm not sure what Vergil is from but the rest are for games that had the luxury of releasing as functionally complete. Also unlike Warframe those games have a very fixed number of "protagonists" where as Warframe has what 25-30ish unique Warframes to try to balance around. Monster Hunter might see a few expansions and power creep but they also have the luxury of being owned/ backed by a huge publisher and get their money up front form their users.

Warframe is also on that other hand a free to play title, piloted by a relatively small developer that lives and dies based on the continual flow of updates. Which has to some degree bitten them in the ass design wise because they have out of necessity pushed ideas that other games might not have. There was a time where Warframe might not have turned into a power fantasy and been a gritty "realistic" FPS but that time has long since passed as has the window for rolling it back. This is now the core of their game.

For example the whole mods system suffers from symptoms that I've seen time and time again in trading card games, they released their biggest and best ideas first and a few "expansions" down the road they started releasing watered down versions "with a twist". Much like a trading card game bans the use of the older more powerful cards at tournaments DE has taken to blocking abilities as their go-to to solve the issues that they created by deciding to take Warframe down the Power Fantasy path.

 

4 hours ago, Loza03 said:

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: this is a game about fighting things. If we can mess with that core gameplay loop, as we do with impunity in Warframe, then no matter the short-term benefits it comes right back around to punish us later.

Yes we fight things but Warframe is at it's core a looter shooter not dissimilar to Diablo. The core game play loop pushes the player to clear those enemies as quickly and efficiently as we can much like Diablo. Except with guns and space plague.

The only "punishment" we have received has been the direct efforts of DE to release content that is simultaneously challenging and accessible. In a vain attempt to placate people who insist on min/maxing their builds at all times and then complaining that the game is easy. Again because DE lives and dies based on updates so their updates need to be aimed at the median not the outer extreme.

And DE has been improving their boss design by implementing mechanically driven bosses instead of just throwing everything and the kitchen sink into a fight while stripping all powers/abilities. Because after the Gauntelwhatever, hydrolyst and Profit Taker they finally realized the general player base doesn't enjoy that.

Which is admittedly a bit perplexing because the Kela fight came before those and mechanically speaking it's still one of my favourite fights. So to have got from that rework to the Profit Taker....?

4 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Scout and Heavy aren't disproportionately out of balance with each other, but they have massively different playstyles. Same for V and Dante in DMC5, or Charge Blade and Heavy Bowgun in Monster Hunter. Hell, Limbo with max range and Limbo with minimum range in Warframe right now have different playstyles and they have the exact same moveset with different properties.

Again we're right back to games that aren't warframe and don't have any of the issues of design or content that Warframe does. When was the last time TF2 added a new character/class? Never. Monsterhunter, DMC all balanced before they where launched with finite parameters . Warframe is an evolution and if it stops, falters or even reverts too far it could simply stop existing.

As to Limbo, I play my max range the same as my min range. Bouncing around like a pinball shooting stuff but that's pretty much how I play most of my frames.

4 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Strawman and slippery slope in the same point, cool.

No, quite the opposite. Whilst such enemies do have a place in moderation (which I explicitly say in the part you quote), abilities should be instead brought in line so they're not snapping the game in two to the point where such enemies Warframe retains ability gameplay. They can exist without snapping the game in two. Kid Icarus manages it with its powers system, as wildly different from Warframe as it may be.

And as for you not liking Dynasty Warriors, Warframe regardless isn't 1:1 comparison by any stretch. There's tons of other games and horde modes that many people really enjoy. TF2's Mann Vs Machine mode, Halo Firefight, Splatoon's Salmon Run even. Or - once again - even Warframe itself when you're not abusing abilities with the Nox and Bursa enemies.

You used Limbo as an example of "different" play styles in one package, based on nothing more than a change in his range how does one go about implementing a time stop mechanic or a dimensional shift for that matter in a way that doesn't "snap the game in two"?

Cataclysm by itself doesn't do a ton of damage but preventing all enemy damage to a defense target removing a failure state and essentially pausing the enemy AI, pretty game breaking and potentially very disruptive to the enjoyment of the game for other players. Limbos base kit breaks the game in twain, why then is Limbo not a problem? Should he be?

4 hours ago, Loza03 said:

What makes something broken is the outcome.

 

What exactly is the state that constitutes an outcome as game breaking and what is simply working as intended? I'm hard pressed to come up with a frame that doesn't have an ability that I could classify as game breaking in one way shap and or form. Given warframe is a power fantasy one persons percieved game breaking interaction is very likley a simple case of working as intended.

Now if Warframe was a PVP game that requires absolute equilibrium to function maybe that would be different but it isn't, it's PVE power fantasy.

4 hours ago, Loza03 said:

For Warframe, the OP things that let players circumvent gameplay are causing big problems with the economy, with the duration and quality of content and with the co-operative elements of the game, along with probably a bunch of other smaller aspects as well. This ought to be addressed.

The economy is subjective, what is problems? The plat value of a mod went down because people are power farming it? If that's it, I don't see that as a problem but is it something else?

Duration as in the rate of it's release or the rate of which we consume it? Cause if it's the rate of it's release, it's going to release as fast as it releases. If it's the quality and co-operative elements (I'll just lump that into general difficulty artificial or otherwise) then DE is kind of between a rock and a hard place. On the one hand with people who keep saying they want harder and harder content but also with people crying that this that and everything is power creep.

What you get is stagnation, where DE desperately tries to release compelling content that doesn't just keep hiking up the damage and spongieness of enemies because then existing median gear can't handle it....because it needs to be accessible to be an decent ROI, while at the same time trying to figure out methods to challenge players with their min/max gear. So you have a company that is trying to figure out how to challenge while in constant fear of power creep but power creep goes by another name and that is progression. So they are functionally trying to create challenge without progression because they have no idea how to implement any further progression without further trivializing the existing content.

Tho it seems like they are figuring it out with mechanic driven bosses like the Rapalapadapolys

I would agree there are definitely things they could do to encourage diversity in builds which would mean an overall reduction in power..... because lets face it our current builds are for better or worse already peak power. Give people a direction to go that doesn't punish them for trying out something different. Right now you can take off mods or use lower tier mods but if you want to try out a different polarity and have already polarized that slot, you are functionally punished for re-polarizing if it turns out you don't like the new build. Cause ya gotta re-repolarize it back to the old build. So a lot of people never bother going past peak power.

Honestly I think one of the best things DE could do for the game is to move the end of mission readout to a separate non focused tab so people stop flipping out over not being top damage. Seriously the day I had the epiphany that top damage meant absolutely nothing was my single best day in Warframe, I'v never enjoyed the game more. I think that waaay too many people hyper focus on that breakdown. If people really want to see it they can tab over, give everyone else another progress bar to stare at.

4 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Again: characters being OP is not required for them to have or facilitate different playstyles.

The devs cannot rely on self-regulation to design tough content. They have to make hard content around the highest denominator. Which, again, is how we get stuff like Profit Taker, or floods of ability nullification, which hurts everyone.

Define OP? One persons OP is another persons fun and one persons fun is another persons OP. There are powers/abilities in this game that do zero direct damage and I could very well classify them as suepr OP. And yeah we're slippery slopeing this because it's all fun and games when you prognosticate "my play style won't be effected because it is right and just" and then guess what people start deciding that your play style is now out preforming them and as such needs to be "adjusted".

Again the game also isn't forcing you to play with any of these people or frames nor is the game forcing you to use them. That is all player choice and as far as I'm concerned working as intended. Trying to homogenize all the frames powers and abilities to make everyone happy, congratulations... I won't say no ones happy because the lowest common denominator is gonna be ecstatic everyone else not so much. As a game developer you better be sure that the lowest common denominator is the bulk of your paying customers or you have enough money frittered away to absorb  the losses as you attempt to rebuild your player base.

Cause nothing short of massive radical shifts are going to get us to this promised land where no one ever steps on anyone toes and I can already attest that at least one of my friends strait up quit the game because of how DE handled Valkyr. Was her 4th ability cheese? Yeah. Ultimately did the change they made stop it from being cheese? Not really but it made someone somewhere who thought valkyr was cheese feel slightly better. Did changing the mechanics of someones favorite frame cost them at least one customer... most certainly. I've been able to drag them back to floof hunt here or there but that's about it, I don't see them ever coming back in any serious capacity.

4 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Seriously, imagine if DE came out and said "We want Arbitrations to be hard, so we have to humbly request everyone not bring frames that can take so much damage they'll never die at conventional levels. Please?"

Imagine if DE came out and said "Hey we're giving Arbitrations a random 300% power boost to a random frame and weapon"

DE shouldn't need to ask players to do anything. Players should be smart enough to put two and two together and realize that if their build is too broken that they should maybe move to a different build. Tho honestly I feel the real goal is better rewards because typically in those "Add challenge to Warframe" threads if it isn't integrated into the first post then rewards are typically addressed within the first five.

In short people are more than capable to recognize that they can have the challenge any time they want but what they really want is the cheese. Alad gets it.

Kinda hoping that The New War will do both but I'm not going to be surprised if they again try to push challenge without progression.

Edited by Oreades

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1 minute ago, WoodedSkate89 said:

 

OK I'm sick of repeating myself.

I don't get outdamaged

I guarantee if I was on your platform with what I had if you brought anything else I could outdamage you as Sayrn or pretty much any other DPS in the game. Also I dont really go down at all in most game modes with any frame because I know what I'm doing with each and every one of them. for example I got close to 3K kills in solo ESO the other day because I know how to build and use her. you on the other hand seem to lack knowledge of the game in general and have very narrow thoughts on what is good and or bad...

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1 minute ago, str4dlin said:

 


Nice one. Very nice one. So new players dont understand saryn. What more this thread needs? 

Also.. Atlas, Zephir, And also Nyx.. that cute and lovely.. :😭

Also... I think wukong is scaling in the table, I like it.

Thanks for the graph!

It's not that new players don't understand Saryn. It's that they can't get her. Her farm, while not that hard, is not one a new player can do. Mainly because it's halfway through the Star Chart, heh. Atlas is even worse being in a mission that is buggy as heck.

For the graph to actually work, one has to compare MR to MR. It's not perfect, as the way it should be is rated by hours played. Since all of us that have been around a while know MR means zer0 with a big 0. Which is why Excal is off the charts when really, no one plays him. However, it was the only data I had that came from DE directly, so it's not something people could debate, lol.

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5 minutes ago, Aldain said:

This thread has gone from "Topical" to "Hilarious" to "Disappointing" to "Just plain sad" pretty fast.

Its still topical because we're talking about the main topic.

Posts like this are off topic

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1 minute ago, Ryim_Drykeon said:

Atlas is even worse being in a mission that is buggy as heck.

It also doesn't help that Atlas is kinda...not very good right now.

I mean he has only like 2 abilities that see any real use, Rumblers fall off in terms of effectiveness faster than Ember and his one tiny wall is overshadowed by Frost Limbo Gara and even Volt.

Poor Atlas, the worst grind in the game, on top of being meh at best.

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1 minute ago, Aldain said:

It also doesn't help that Atlas is kinda...not very good right now.

I mean he has only like 2 abilities that see any real use, Rumblers fall off in terms of effectiveness faster than Ember and his one tiny wall is overshadowed by Frost Limbo Gara and even Volt.

Poor Atlas, the worst grind in the game, on top of being meh at best.

Atlas prime is coming out next. He'll get reworked with the prime

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1 minute ago, WoodedSkate89 said:

Atlas prime is coming out next. He'll get reworked with the prime

I hope so, I really really do.

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Just now, InfinitusPhoenix said:

People play him only for his 1

I use petrify...sometimes...when I...feel like it...

...You are 100% right.

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Posted (edited)
hace 19 minutos, Ryim_Drykeon dijo:

It's not that new players don't understand Saryn. It's that they can't get her. Her farm, while not that hard, is not one a new player can do. Mainly because it's halfway through the Star Chart, heh. Atlas is even worse being in a mission that is buggy as heck.

For the graph to actually work, one has to compare MR to MR. It's not perfect, as the way it should be is rated by hours played. Since all of us that have been around a while know MR means zer0 with a big 0. Which is why Excal is off the charts when really, no one plays him. However, it was the only data I had that came from DE directly, so it's not something people could debate, lol.

You right. I correct myself. "New players saying that Saryn is out of balance don't understand Saryn"

And I agree but is not about time played too not, is about time dedicated to learn. I got over 2k hours in the game and Im not MR 27, Im 26. And you can find MR27 with 500. I am playing since 2013. You want to know the time I ve dedicated for building warframes and weapons and most of it doing high-end content. All this doesnt raise MR. So graph is not that unbalanced. I think it is the point you want to go in.

But I agree you in a part.Graph is a bit confusing also but statistics talk in general terms.  Is also good and nice info to have in mind. And Saryn was not hard to get before.

I also don't need the graph. You can navigate this thread and look for real elaborated content and not empty words too see who is giving it and what is their opinion.

Edited by str4dlin

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20 minutes ago, Aldain said:

This thread has gone from "Topical" to "Hilarious" to "Disappointing" to "Just plain sad" pretty fast.

Let see how far till beaten horse corpse 

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