Can something be done about Saryn?

[bibmobello]

6 minutes ago, Ryim_Drykeon said:

No applause needed. How about some common sense instead.

 The new player was frustrated in a SORTIE!!!!!! If that Saryn hadn't been wiping the map, they would have been frustrated from being DEAD. The OP didn't even say the Saryn was spamming Spores. Just that they couldn't get a kill. For all anyone knows, that Saryn was killing with their weapons too fast for the OP to keep up. No one knows.

Want to play and not be frustrated? Play your level until you can step up. Testing the waters is fine, but don't whine when you can swim.

And jumping on players spamming abilities is just dumb. So says Trinity trying to keep newbies alive.

Being able to spam Aoe abilities is dumb and negating that is even more dumb! No "serious" game allows that! 

[Cubewano]

33 minutes ago, (XB1)Zweimander said:

Also Equinox ,Volt, Mesa, and an assortment of other frames kill low level enemies quickly so I guess they should be nerfed according to what OP thought then right? XD

Yes, and they should be. 

33 minutes ago, Ryim_Drykeon said:

Yup. Nerf any frame that a skilled player uses to out do a new player, hehe

Nerf any frame that can completely deny other players even the option of engagement in a co-op game, yes. (and no their effects are not exclusive to veteran versus new player)

[WoodedSkate89]

19 minutes ago, Ver1dian said:

Do you think the entire forum is full of idiots?

Ummm no...

Which one of your assortment of obvious lies are you going to present now to tell me how I've not red it? You also top damage with a Lex and Trinity?

You can get godly soma builds. I got a really good riven for it and I never stopped using it.

Why is every new player going for Rhino, because he requires skill? No, because he IS the noobframe, he invalidates the most of gameplay by reducing the value of propper modding in the early stages and teaches facetanking.

New players go for rhino because he is the first frame you unlock. And no. He doesn't reduce the value of modding. You can literally mod rhino out correctly to have 1 million iron skin. (With the right augment, which also inspires syndicate interest)

People may have their differences in this topic, but I bet my shiny metal ass that we all could agree that any of us will outdamage your Rhino+Soma so bad you may actually put a filter in that empty spot between your brain and you input function.

It's really ironic btw how you meant to say empty spot between my ears and messed up by putting brain. Wtf can I have between my brain. Between requires 2 nouns to make it work. You gave 1. You try calling me an idiot but you made a basic year 3 error. English isn't even my first language and I'm correcting you smh.

And I'm just saying, if built right, soma prime can be as good as ignis wraith. (Also luck with rivens)

Imma quote somebody who said this earlier

Quote

I just came back to this thread and there's some chucklehead saying rhino doesn't require skill

 

 

[WoodedSkate89]

Just now, Cubewano said:

Yes, and they should be. 

Nerf any frame that can completely deny other players even the option of engagement in a co-op game, yes. (and no their effects are not exclusive to veteran versus new player)

I have never found someone I agree with more

[Cubewano]

9 minutes ago, Ryim_Drykeon said:

No applause needed. How about some common sense instead.

The new player was frustrated in a SORTIE!!!!!! If that Saryn hadn't been wiping the map, they would have been frustrated from being DEAD. The OP didn't even say the Saryn was spamming Spores. Just that they couldn't get a kill. For all anyone knows, that Saryn was killing with their weapons too fast for the OP to keep up. No one knows.

Want to play and not be frustrated? Play your level until you can step up. Testing the waters is fine, but don't whine when you can swim.

And jumping on players spamming abilities is just dumb. So says Trinity trying to keep newbies alive.

If a learning curve affected this outcome you'd have a point, but the player being new, middling, or a veteran would not impede the effects of the situation the OP found themselves in. Saryn doesn't stop clearing rooms or do less damage and have less range based on how experienced or not other persons in their group are, and she will (among some others) clean house in a matter of moments regardless of your experience or knowledge, and that is the core issue. It is a tool with a design element so potent it can invalidate the game for others, and that is a problem, and it is not a state of affairs one should approve of. Being able to actually play the game you have offered up your time and possibly money to play should not be a means for debate, nor should it be put up to chance based on who you matchmake with during play, that is just a sign of broken game design, and broken balance. 

[WoodedSkate89]

19 minutes ago, Ryim_Drykeon said:

No applause needed. How about some common sense instead.

The new player was frustrated in a SORTIE!!!!!! If that Saryn hadn't been wiping the map, they would have been frustrated from being DEAD. The OP didn't even say the Saryn was spamming Spores. Just that they couldn't get a kill. For all anyone knows, that Saryn was killing with their weapons too fast for the OP to keep up. No one knows.

Want to play and not be frustrated? Play your level until you can step up. Testing the waters is fine, but don't whine when you can swim.

And jumping on players spamming abilities is just dumb. So says Trinity trying to keep newbies alive.

The Vibe I'm getting is that you don't like new players in sorties. If so...

I'm as against new players in sorties as you.

But it's not like DE will change it, so suck it up and carry

[(PSN)ErydisTheLucario]

1 hour ago, (XB1)Zweimander said:

I guarantee if I was on your platform with what I had if you brought anything else I could outdamage you as Sayrn or pretty much any other DPS in the game. Also I dont really go down at all in most game modes with any frame because I know what I'm doing with each and every one of them. for example I got close to 3K kills in solo ESO the other day because I know how to build and use her. you on the other hand seem to lack knowledge of the game in general and have very narrow thoughts on what is good and or bad...

Why does this post now seem to boil down to a $&*^ swinging contest?

[Ryim_Drykeon]

1 minute ago, bibmobello said:

Being able to spam Aoe abilities is dumb and negating that is even more dumb! No "serious" game allows that! 

You do understand what "Horde Shooter" type games are? Right?

 

2 minutes ago, Cubewano said:

Nerf any frame that can completely deny other players even the option of engagement in a co-op game, yes. (and no their effects are not exclusive to veteran versus new player)

No frame does that. Players do. Not frames. it's been said by many, that getting kills with a Saryn on the field is pretty easy. I know I have no issue with it. So yeah, that's exclusive to new player problems.

If new players can mix with older players, then this gulf of skill level with exist. Other games fix this by preventing higher level players from going back to lower levels, or being de-leveled to lower levels if grouping with them. Since Warframe has no levels, DE can't do this. So one must gain the skills to keep up, or simply fall behind.

Thankfully, the number of skilled players that go into missions to just take the joy from new players is rare. (There are always a$$ hats). Most will take pains to help the new players out and to help them enjoy the game. In the OP's case, they went into a SORTIE they were not prepared for, in a Public match, and ran into someone that wanted to speedrun the boring crap and get through it for the crappy rewards on that crappy loot table (or maybe for NW). So it was a single instance, that will probably never be repeated.

2 minutes ago, Cubewano said:

If a learning curve affected this outcome you'd have a point, but the player being new, middling, or a veteran would not impede the effects of the situation the OP found themselves in. Saryn doesn't stop clearing rooms or do less damage and have less range based on how experienced or not other persons in their group are, and she will (among some others) clean house in a matter of moments regardless of your experience or knowledge, and that is the core issue. It is a tool with a design element so potent it can invalidate the game for others, and that is a problem, and it is not a state of affairs one should approve of. Being able to actually play the game you have offered up your time and possibly money to play should not be a means for debate, nor should it be put up to chance based on who you matchmake with during play, that is just a sign of broken game design, and broken balance. 

There is a learning curve involved. Learn to get ahead of Saryn. Not hard to do. She, or her squad, has to work at spreading her Spores for her max damage on map clearing. Usually the mobs die off far to quickly to propagate through the map. Especially in Defense, where they degrade quickly between waves.

And Saryn's abilities do NOT clear maps as efficiently as you portend. If they did, EVERYONE would use her to cheeze maps. You can spout that some want challenge, but that's bull. Human nature will always take the easy path. So since not everyone is playing Saryn, she's not a press-to-win frame.

[WoodedSkate89]

1 minute ago, (PS4)ErydisTheLucario said:

Why does this post now seem to boil down to a $&*^ swinging contest?

Its just some saryn bragging about pressing the same 2 buttons over and over

[Ryim_Drykeon]

1 minute ago, WoodedSkate89 said:

The Vibe I'm getting is that you don't like new players in sorties. If so...

I'm as against new players in sorties as you.

But it's not like DE will change it, so suck it up and carry

ROFL, I don't care about new players in Sorties other than the fact they are probably going to die a lot and be frustrated with the game and quit.

I don't play Sorties as they are boring, and the rewards are crap. If DE makes the rewards worth it, I might do them, but as of now, I think I've completed a few dozen only.

[bibmobello]

9 minutes ago, Ryim_Drykeon said:

You do understand what "Horde Shooter" type games are? Right?

  

No frame does that. Players do. Not frames. it's been said by many, that getting kills with a Saryn on the field is pretty easy. I know I have no issue with it. So yeah, that's exclusive to new player problems.

If new players can mix with older players, then this gulf of skill level with exist. Other games fix this by preventing higher level players from going back to lower levels, or being de-leveled to lower levels if grouping with them. Since Warframe has no levels, DE can't do this. So one must gain the skills to keep up, or simply fall behind.

Thankfully, the number of skilled players that go into missions to just take the joy from new players is rare. (There are always a$$ hats). Most will take pains to help the new players out and to help them enjoy the game. In the OP's case, they went into a SORTIE they were not prepared for, in a Public match, and ran into someone that wanted to speedrun the boring crap and get through it for the crappy rewards on that crappy loot table (or maybe for NW). So it was a single instance, that will probably never be repeated.

There is a learning curve involved. Learn to get ahead of Saryn. Not hard to do. She, or her squad, has to work at spreading her Spores for her max damage on map clearing. Usually the mobs die off far to quickly to propagate through the map. Especially in Defense, where they degrade quickly between waves.

And Saryn's abilities do NOT clear maps as efficiently as you portend. If they did, EVERYONE would use her to cheeze maps. You can spout that some want challenge, but that's bull. Human nature will always take the easy path. So since not everyone is playing Saryn, she's not a press-to-win frame.

Do you understand that at the beginning this was not a   " farming horde looting random shooter" but it required some skills? i guess you don't... anyway they transformed this game to please people with no skill at all, now you are happy. The only difficulty  for newbies is that they have no idea how to play, they don't have any formed weapon and  frame because no one explained that in game.

Edited August 7, 2019 by bibmobello

[bibmobello]

Edited August 7, 2019 by bibmobello

[(NSW)Austee]

Thank the gaming gods 90% of you have ABSOLUTLY no say in what happens in this game. Or any game for that matter.  The amount of arm chair gaming developers in this forum is Frruuuking unreal. 

 

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

vor einer Stunde schrieb bibmobello:

Spamming abilities is the main problem of warframe.

A million times this.

[Cubewano]

5 hours ago, Ryim_Drykeon said:

No frame does that. Players do. Not frames. it's been said by many, that getting kills with a Saryn on the field is pretty easy. I know I have no issue with it. So yeah, that's exclusive to new player problems.

If new players can mix with older players, then this gulf of skill level with exist. Other games fix this by preventing higher level players from going back to lower levels, or being de-leveled to lower levels if grouping with them. Since Warframe has no levels, DE can't do this. So one must gain the skills to keep up, or simply fall behind.

Thankfully, the number of skilled players that go into missions to just take the joy from new players is rare. (There are always a$$ hats). Most will take pains to help the new players out and to help them enjoy the game. In the OP's case, they went into a SORTIE they were not prepared for, in a Public match, and ran into someone that wanted to speedrun the boring crap and get through it for the crappy rewards on that crappy loot table (or maybe for NW). So it was a single instance, that will probably never be repeated.

There is a learning curve involved. Learn to get ahead of Saryn. Not hard to do. She, or her squad, has to work at spreading her Spores for her max damage on map clearing. Usually the mobs die off far to quickly to propagate through the map. Especially in Defense, where they degrade quickly between waves.

And Saryn's abilities do NOT clear maps as efficiently as you portend. If they did, EVERYONE would use her to cheeze maps. You can spout that some want challenge, but that's bull. Human nature will always take the easy path. So since not everyone is playing Saryn, she's not a press-to-win frame.

Yet here we are with people citing those very experiences, even I a veteran player with full knowledge of the games systems, with all the gear, all the mods, all the progression antics that climb you to this supposed pinnacle of power. It's not a fabrication, and it's not a case of needing to grow stronger, it's just an objective design fault. The most that can be presently done to counter this issue is to play the same meta tools as these players, then hope to be the fastest to whichever room you're about to clean, but to that I'd say that's not a real solution. Forcing every to be a meta player to get to play or otherwise be left behind and excluded is not a solution, nor does it really even solve anything other than for that select individual and only by trading the impact for the most part. At no point in a game should being excluded from play be a standard, at no point should the standard be either to be a carry or to be the carried and that be the end all design, play should be engaging, it should be involved, and all people should be able to contribute in all instances in a satisfying way. Learning to accept the fate at some period is not a solution. Forcing yourself into the same meta play is not a solution. Cutting yourself off from matchmaking is not a solution. They are all just various forms of hindrance to put off actually addressing the problem and solving it. 

Edited August 8, 2019 by Cubewano

[(XBOX)Zweimander]

Honestly this has become a matter of the nerf advocates vs the people who are fine with it and want no change. It has lost all semblance of respect and should just go down as it has run its course. Either way though I still don't think OP was right on this though, they did not know enough bout the game to comment if were all being completely honest and he just got a bit salty about running into someone who outclassed them by a large margin gear wise.

[Loza03]

7 minutes ago, Oreades said:

The Profit Taker was ill concieved in a very algorithmic fashion that felt like they where strait up trying to counter players point for point instead of trying to craft a fun/engaging fight. That wasn't going to turn out well even if players weren't "over powered" because the mindset behind that fight just felt all wrong.

The wolf was more of a gotcha, That also felt like people where first and formost looking at metrics before they where looking at making an interesting encounter.

The exploiter started moving in the correct direction by making powers less of a focus and shifting to mechanics and the Rapadapalopolyst almost gets us there in a cohesive encounter. It skirts powers for the most part but does so in an engaging way unlike the Profit taker that simply shuts you down and then throws all the knockdown at you because everyone enjoys being continually stunlocked.

The fact of the matter is, they came from completely abandoning large chunks the core gameplay loop.

Regardless of how well-made the encounters themselves are (and I enjoy Exploiter and Ropalolyst), it still shows that DE can't make 'end-game' content, or even just interesting encounters on the core gameplay loop and has to actively depart from it.

14 minutes ago, Oreades said:

As for the games you listed that "embrace" the game loop, while I'm not sure what Vergil is from but the rest are for games that had the luxury of releasing as functionally complete. Also unlike Warframe those games have a very fixed number of "protagonists" where as Warframe has what 25-30ish unique Warframes to try to balance around. Monster Hunter might see a few expansions and power creep but they also have the luxury of being owned/ backed by a huge publisher and get their money up front form their users.

The core gameplay loop is exactly that - the core gameplay. It's not going to change to the point of invalidating all interesting encounters.

Minecraft's been going for ten years now and has undergone similar amounts of change since it's initial release, both as classic and the post-beta, if not even more changes than Warframe. Yet the core gameplay loop is still really strong.

40 minutes ago, Oreades said:

Warframe is also on that other hand a free to play title, piloted by a relatively small developer that lives and dies based on the continual flow of updates. Which has to some degree bitten them in the ass design wise because they have out of necessity pushed ideas that other games might not have. There was a time where Warframe might not have turned into a power fantasy and been a gritty "realistic" FPS but that time has long since passed as has the window for rolling it back. This is now the core of their game.

For example the whole mods system suffers from symptoms that I've seen time and time again in trading card games, they released their biggest and best ideas first and a few "expansions" down the road they started releasing watered down versions "with a twist". Much like a trading card game bans the use of the older more powerful cards at tournaments DE has taken to blocking abilities as their go-to to solve the issues that they created by deciding to take Warframe down the Power Fantasy path.

The core of the game is the combat system. That's what everything else is built around. The genre, difficulty, whatever, those aren't the core gameplay. And as for power fantasy, I see this thrown around all the time: "Warframe is a power fantasy".

Most games are power fantasy. Power fantasy is the fantasy of being more powerful than you actually are, or (for non-interactive media), projecting into a character who is. And a reasonable majority of games involve being more powerful, more competent and more influential than most people actually are. Even a 'gritty realistic' Warframe would still be power fantasy. And that means it's no excuse for poor balancing. I mean, look at Doom 2016. With how much people talk about how powerful that game makes them feel, and taking the Warframe definition, you'd think that game would just roll over, but it doesn't. It puts up stiff resistance. And don't forget classics like Halo and DMC. Or, again, Dynasty Warriors. You might not like the game, but it's definitely a power fantasy that doesn't trip over its 

48 minutes ago, Oreades said:

Yes we fight things but Warframe is at it's core a looter shooter not dissimilar to Diablo. The core gameplay loop demands we clear those enemies as quickly and efficiently as we can much like Diablo. Except with guns and space plague.

You say that, but given how many of the new resources are acquired through primarily non-combat means or through encounters that drop the standard gameplay loop, I'd say DE thinks we're too efficient at killing enemies and getting loot.

50 minutes ago, Oreades said:

The only "punishment" we have recieved has been the direct efforts of DE to release content that is simultaniously challenging and accessible. In a vain attempt to placate people who insist on min/maxing their builds at all times and then complaining that the game is easy. Again because DE lives and dies based on updates so their updates need to be aimed at the median not the outer extreme.

And DE has been improving their boss design by implementing mechanically driven bosses instead of just throwing everything and the kitchen sink into a fight while stripping all powers/abilities. Because after the Gauntelwhatever, hydrolyst and Profit Taker they finally realized the general player base doesn't enjoy that.

Which is admittedly a bit perplexing because the Kela fight came before those and mechanically speaking it's still one of my favourite fights. So to have got from that rework to the Profit Taker....?

Well, yes. As you point out, this is a game with a large emphasis on looting to augment the combat system. We are supposed to min/max as much as we are supposed to build our own style. But min/maxing in Warframe has caused problems.

Profit-taker is also a mechanically-driven boss. So are the Eidolons. You happen to hate the mechanics used in them. Operators, Arch-guns, forced close-quarters, damage weaknesses - those are mechanical gimmicks for those fights. That's going to happen again eventually. I know there's a lot of people who aren't fond of the Ropalolysts' oneshots.

The punishments we receive is the corroding of the game itself. So many people hate having to go fishing or hunting for things but DE had to put that in to prevent us from being able to at most nuke the Plains or Vallis until we had all the new resources - or, if no new resources were added, effectively have everything as soon as it came out because getting combat loot has a tendency to be trivial. Which is also why standing and hard caps are so common now too. And let's not fail to address how many people are saying 'just play solo' to people who clearly don't want to play solo in this co-op game. Being forced to play solo in a game that's largely about interacting with other players is a pretty big issue. Not for me (I solo by choice), yeah, but given that it's one of the big parts of this thread as a whole, it's undoubtedly a controversial topic.

1 hour ago, Oreades said:

What exactly is the state that constitutes an outcome as game breaking and what is simply working as intended? I'm hard pressed to come up with a frame that doesn't have an ability that I could classify as game breaking in one way shap and or form. Given warframe is a power fantasy one persons percieved game breaking interaction is very likley a simple case of working as intended.

Now if Warframe was a PVP game that requires absolout equalibrium to function maybe that would be different but it isn't, it's PVE power fantasy.

Game breaking is when it allows a player to circumvent the core gameplay loop. A non-Warframe example would be infinite jump glitches in platformers. In Warframe, these are powers that let players infinitely avoid engaging enemies in true combat, either through killing them before they meet, through disabling their AI with hard CC, preventing death (the primary fail-state) through unassailable EHP and/or self-healing and preventing all aggro with stealth.

It should be noted that it is only the unrestricted access to these powers that makes them game-breaking. Wisp, for example, has several restrictions on her invisibility (harsh energy costs through frequent recasts or inability to attack) so that element is A-OK in my book. The Tigris Prime famously hits like a train carrying a shipment of semi trucks, but you have to reload after every other shot, leaving yourself vulnerable due to an inability to attack. The Gram Prime also hits incredibly hard, but is a melee weapon (that actually works at melee range) and thus enemies massively outrange you. These have the hallmarks of nukes or immortals, but since their power is more conditional, they don't take away from the gameplay. Harrow is another classic example.

You're right - Warframe doesn't need absolute equilibrium. But it also needs to stop rewarding T-bagging in the corner to win.

Spoiler

 

Or anything that achieves a similar result. I've said a number of times across several conversations that I have fairly minimal issues with how Saryn actually plays (Spore management is a pretty good system), just the fact that at the levels that we actually encounter in-game, she's too effective. I've even gone so far as, in another thread, to say she's in a grey area.

 

As the name implies, balance is about finding that balance where the game is still engaging to play, and not trying to hold its core systems together with duct tape.

1 hour ago, Oreades said:

The echonemy is subjective, what is problems? The plat value of a mod went down because people are power farming it? If that's it, I don't see that as a problem but is it something else?

All of what I talk about with grinding and resources is the economy.

1 hour ago, Oreades said:

Duration as in the rate of it's release or the rate of which we consume it? Cause if it's the rate of it's release, it's going to release as fast as it releases. If it's the quality and co-operative elemtents (I'll just lump that into general difficulty artificial or otherwise) then DE is kind of between a rock and a hard place. On the one hand with people who keep saying they want harder and harder content but also with people crying that this that and everything is power creep.

The rate we consume it. How often do you see people complaining about content which 'lasts a week'? When you look at games like DMC which is supposed to be around 30 hours of content that people play for hundreds, if not thousands of hours, it's pretty undeniable that the better the gameplay, the longer people want to play content.

1 hour ago, Oreades said:

What you get is stagnation, where DE desperately trys to release compelling content that doesn't just keep hiking up the damage and spongieness of enemies because then existing median gear can't handle it....because it needs to be acceccible to be an decent ROI, while at the same time trying to figure out methods to challenge players with their min/max gear. So you have a company that is trying to figure out how to challenge while in constant fear of power creep but power creep goes by another name and that is progression. So they are functionally trying to create challenge without progression because they have no idea how to implemnt any further progression without further trivializing the existing content. 

Tho it seems like they are figuring it out with mechanic driven bosses like the Rapalapadapolys

I would agree there are definitely things they could do to encouarge diversity in builds which would mean an overall reduction in power..... because lets face it our current builds are for better or worse already peak power. Give people a direction to go that doesn't punish them for trying out something different. Right now you can take off mods or use lower tier mods but if you want to try out a differnt polarity and have already polarized that slot, you are functionally punished for re-polarizing if it turns out you don't like the new build. Cause ya gotta re-repolarize it back to the old build. So a lot of people never bother going past peak power.

You hit my point square on the head. If the game continues to let us be at peak power without limitation, the game will stagnate and already is to some degree. Gimmicks only delay the inevitable.

That's pretty much what I meant with 'our power is not proportional to the game we're in'

2 hours ago, Oreades said:

Define OP? One persons OP is another persons fun and one persons fun is another persons OP. There are powers/abilities in this game that do zero direct damage and I could very well classify them as suepr OP. And yeah we're slippery slopeing this because it's all fun and games when you prognosticate "my playstyle won't be effected because it is right and just" and then guess what people start deciding that your playstyle is now out preforming them and as such needs to be "adjusted".

As I said, somethings OP when it enables the player to trivialise or skip gameplay without or with minimal restrictions.

2 hours ago, Oreades said:

Again the game also isn't forcing you to play with any of these people or frames nor is the game forcing you to use them. That is all player choice and as far as I'm concerned working as intended. Trying to homoginize all the frames powers and abilities to make everyone happy, congratulations... I won't say no ones happy because the lowest common denominator is gonna be extatic everyone else not so much. As a game developer you better be sure that the lowest common denominator is the bulk of your paying customers or you have enough money frittered away to absorb  the losses as you attempt to rebuild your playerbase.

Who said I wanted homogenised frame powers? I just don't want the game to stagnate to death, and as we agree, that's just a matter of time if we remain at enough power to completely dodge the core gameplay forever.

2 hours ago, Oreades said:

ause nothing short of massive radical shifts are going to get us to this prommised land where no one ever steps on anyones toes and I can already attest that at least one of my friends strait up quit the game because of how DE handled Valkyr. Was her 4th ability cheese? Yeah. Ultimately did the change they made stop it from being cheese? Not really but it made someone somewhere who thought valkyr was cheese feel slightly better. Did changing the mechanics of someones favorite frame cost them at least one customer... most certainly. I've been able to drag them back to floof hunt here or there but that's about it, I don't see them ever coming back in any serious capacity

Let's be real here, no update's going to please everyone. If Heaven exists, I guarantee there's at least one person up there complaining about the quality of service. It's why I dislike the 'just play solo' argument - it's not an argument, it's basically saying 'your subjective taste doesn't matter'.

What matters is the larger effects on the game, and as we both agree, unlimited power gets the game to stagnate and forces the devs to deviate from the core gameplay, with mixed results.

2 hours ago, Oreades said:

Imagine if DE came out and said "Hey we're giving Arbitrations a random 300% power boost to a random frame and weapon"

Touche.

2 hours ago, Oreades said:

DE shouldn't need to ask players to do anything. Players should be smart enough to put two and two together and realize that if their build is too broken that they should maybe move to a different build. Tho honestly I feel the real goal is better rewards because typically in those "Add challenge to Warframe" threads if it isn't integrated into the first post then rewards are typically addressed within the first five.

In short people are more than capable to recognize that they can have the challenge any time they want but what they really want is the cheese. Alad gets it.

Kinda hoping that The New War will do both but I'm not going to be surprised if they again try to push challenge without progression.

People won't, and at the end of the day, it's not the player's job to do so. People will naturally gravitate to the most efficient way to do something. It's on the Dev's shoulders to make it so the most efficient way and the most engaging way are, if not the same thing, as close to each other as possible.

And, as we both agree - we're at peak power. How do we make better rewards? More power? 

[Spookmineer]

Who are we kidding? I see about 5 different discussions back and forth, and OP hasn't posted a single thing since friday.

I'm almost afraid the 30+ pages of this... whatever this is... scared him too much to come back.

But I'm hopeful.

[(XBOX)Zweimander]

3 minutes ago, Spookmineer said:

Who are we kidding? I see about 5 different discussions back and forth, and OP hasn't posted a single thing since friday.

 I'm almost afraid the 30+ pages of this... whatever this is... scared him too much to come back.

 But I'm hopeful.

Yep, the complaint of a new player started all of this and they were to intimidated to ever respond back to any of it. I would call this the battle of nerf the DPS vs the Dont nerfs XD

[goatwin]

8 hours ago, Ver1dian said:

Are you telling me all those Rhinos, Limbos and Inari (Inaroses?) In ESO with unleveled weapons wanted to do damage 😮 . My world view is shattered

And how does this relate to what I said? What are you trying to tell me?

[EquinoxPrime]

15 minutes ago, (XB1)Zweimander said:

I would call this the battle of nerf the DPS vs the Dont nerfs XD

I call it entertainment. 

[stormy505]

1 hour ago, moostar95 said:

At this point, we need mods. 

Considering the amount of toxicity in this thread, $&*^ swinging, insult throwing. Etc. I'm legitimately surprised it hasn't been shut down yet.

[goatwin]

8 hours ago, Oreades said:

No I'm going for the "it's never going to be enough until it's gone" truth. 

They will never be able to nerf AoE abilities sufficiently to make people like your friend happy without making them so ineffective that they have all but removed them from the game. As long as they are even mediocrely effective they will be "too much" and it will just be another Nerf Saryn thread because someone will decide that (Insert Nuke frame) is OP or Unfair or whatever angle they decide to approach from.

When the answer is and has always been to simply not group with frames you don't like and or accept the fact that not every PUG group is going to live up you your playstyle standards because ..... it's a PUG group, ya get what ya get. If you want specifics LFG.

Much like the answer to challenge in Warframe is a harsh and simple "don't redline your builds 4head" but that doesn't stop everyone who can redline their build from redlining their build at all times and coming to the forums to complain that the content is "too easy" because they CHOSE to cheese it and pigheadedly refuse to do anything but continue to cheese the content. 

Ah now THIS is a counter argument. Now if everyone else here sticks to this method instead of carcasm or hyperbole.. 

You said that changing nuke abilities are not possible without making them completely useless, can you explain why this is the case? Is it a game mechanic thing or dev inability thing?  I do know this happened to ember, but the excal rework was a good example of a rework that did more good than harm, and that one removed his nuking ability. Keep in mind though, i'm not asking for a complete removal of nuking abilities. 

[(XBOX)Zweimander]

26 minutes ago, EquinoxPrime said:

I call it entertainment. 

Well played sir...Well played...

[Oreades]

3 minutes ago, goatwin said:

Ah now THIS is a counter argument. Now if everyone else here sticks to this method instead of carcasm or hyperbole.. 

You said that changing nuke abilities are not possible without making them completely useless, can you explain why this is the case? Is it a game mechanic thing or dev inability thing?  I do know this happened to ember, but the excal rework was a good example of a rework that did more good than harm, and that one removed his nuking ability. Keep in mind though, i'm not asking for a complete removal of nuking abilities. 

Because it's human nature. As long as Saryn does anything more than 25% damage people are going to throw a hissy fit and since her damage is distributed across a lot of enemies even if she isn't killing her damage is naturally going to be higher than most frames even tho the actual ticks will become next to useless. Once Saryn is "fixed" to the crowds liking they will move on to the next offender and the next offender until everything is just gunframe because any power that gives a total damage advantage is going to be labeled "problematic" 

I mean think about Nova, Novas Antimater Charge probably does significantly more explosion damage then Saryns spores in a lot of instances (you can hit one enemy and the resulting cascading explosions will take out a hallway) but for whatever reason the game doesn't record those as Novas damage or count the enemies killed by explosions towards her EoM rating (as best as I can tell) and you don't hear people complaining about Nova because they don't register it. 

They'd be better off just hiding the total damage from the end of mission screen cause seeing one player with the bulk of the damage is the bulk of the problem. The second I decided that the Total Damage was something I just didn't care about anymore was the single best day for me in Warframe. Put another progress screen where the EoM screen is and have the EoM stats on another tab that people can look at if they want.

Cause even with a Saryn in SO/ESO I'm usually still running around killing stuff.... especially in ESO because they can't really hammer their 4. The big whammy is the EoM screen. when they are 80+% of your damage and people flip out. 

 

Not sure what they did to Excal because I always found him to be boring so I never play him but their hamfisted attempts to "correct" ember (IMHO because they panicked over Auger Messenger extending her range, which was already quite large to strait up crazy) they actually essentially just forced people into a max range build (I think my ember lost like 3 meters from what I typically ran but I never ran max range anyhow) and ultimately made Ember a worse offender on the star chart while simultaniously hobbling what little end game she had.

I think my Ember ended up going from like ~50-60% of the starchart damage to ~80-90% depending on the mission in part because I also needed to be a tad more aggressive because of the increased energy cost. All because what they really wanted to change was the range and instead of just capping it they did whatever it was that they decided to do to distract from ultimately reducing her range by 50%.

That's what happens when you over complicate things and that's another thing that is going to happen if they start mass nerfing things because they will need to disguise the nerfs as some sort of buff/QoL or risk losing the bulk of their population. Because if you start taking away peoples toys they will leave.

 

End of the day I see no reason to change pretty much anything power wise, if you don't like it don't play with it, there is a vast pool of plebs in the LFG only some of them run frames you hate. I would however like to see some more QoL that would free up the potential for people to experiment with builds without being punished for it. One of the worst culprits for build stagnation IMHO is the current single polarity Forma system and a itterative multi-polarity system would go a long way to giving people something to do and the freedom to feel that they can try other builds. 

And like I said in the other (tho possibly this) post, hopefully The New War brings in some higher level content because that's what this game needs but at the same time DE needs content that appeals to the widest possible range of players and that isn't people who have min/maxed their builds already. That said they might just pull out the stops and if they have then the. At the very least the enemy designs for The New War looked absoloutly baller.