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MrRixter

Can something be done about Saryn?

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How can people actually complain about a frame being strong in a game like warframe? 

Every frame has situational strengths and weaknesses.

Saryn is perfectly fine and her strength as a dps nuker is in more confined defense type missions where walls can hinder other nukers.

Warframe is designed in a way that it allows you to pick and play any frame you want in any scenario you want this diversity is healthy and good for the game.

Nerfing a frame does nothing but cater to those with fragile egos that another frame did more damage or had more kills then they were able to produce. 

I recently picked up Saryn as a previous Loki, mag, nova, nyx player and I find her kit fun and strong in the areas she excels. There are many other scenarios where I still revert to my other frames.

Having a Saryn on my team on defense missions is great and doesn't retract from me enjoying the game as it facilities the team goal of completing the mission successfully.

People that complain about relative strength of another frame are ludicrous the game is designed to have players with much higher power spikes and potential based on discrepencies that are created by time invested maxing out a character vs those that are less geared.

Also to have such a fragile ego of being outperformed in certain scenarios means you should just play and do everything solo. 

Playing Saryn I have had many scenarios where people are able to compete or even outperform me in any setting. I will concede that on defense missions she is king but I play her as an active melee playstyle.

Her kit is really well made and fun to use and something everyone can chose to enjoy nerfing her serves no real purpose

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vor 6 Stunden schrieb Pizzarugi:

Just because you don't play her like a nuke build, doesn't mean nobody else does. The vast majority of Saryn users play her for the purpose of being the most efficient frame for farming the game, by clearing everything in the blink of an eye over and over again. If what you say about how you play her is true, you're a rare exception, but not the norm.

sooo... because you could do something we have to restrict it? thats kind of patronize players...

i see many saryn which do not simply press 4 and go.. but yes, sometime it happens that a saryn do so. whats the problem? i go to the other side of the map and have fun for myself. thats not really the problem you write.  beside that - a slash is much faster in bringing down enemies even if they are attacked by miasma. or the shot with a arca.

to bring saryn to the all overkilling mega nuke (which she is not) you think she is, you have to go a long road, farm the right mods, the right arcanas, you have to forma her several time to get it all in and so on.. beside: you first need a mastery rank high enough to get her and a longer playing time. if you have just normal mods you will only kill enemies till lvl 20... if you are lucky. thats what in all of your nice little monologs is missing. and i see no problem in the fact that a high level player which has spend hunderts of hours in the game has a pretty nice frame. thats what you are playing for: getting the best equipment for the mission. also you will never play saryn in spy missions or something like that. because she is not build for this. and again, it's not to simply press 4 and go.. you need enough energy too. i enemies spawn rapidly you will fastly get out of energy if pressing 4 is the only thing you do. without it, a saryn pretty gets killed in no time. against corpus a saryn is also not really the best frame.

for farming also other frame are much better like nekros. as you will get saryn on sedna, you also will not make the game with this frame. 

saryn has a single purpose. strip enemies down, so you and other can kill them. support, not overkill. thats it.

for me this is a melee support frame, strip enemies armour, kill with slashing them down. thats how i play her. but if you can't do mass damage with her - her purpose is lost. it will simply destroy the frames beeing.

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21 минуту назад, (PS4)NewcastleDisease сказал:
i see many saryn which do not simply press 4 and go.. but yes, sometime it happens that a saryn do so. whats the problem? i go to the other side of the map and have fun for myself. thats not really the problem you write. beside that - a slash is much faster in bringing down enemies even if they are attacked by miasma. or the shot with a arca.

You're out of synthesis range. Mobs will spawn around the host, which means you cant see mobs if will go far.(For example on survival missions.) I don't think you've ever done what you say.

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vor 9 Stunden schrieb Pizzarugi:

snip~

thats more a design issue. if u decide to design a dmg frame then better make it good or it will just be a pointless effort. the issue clearing lv 60 rooms easily is more of an issue of game difficulty. warframes, weapons and mods grew more powerful over the years whilst content is still waiting for a growth in terms of difficulty aside of enemy scaling, which noone has to play above level ~110. thats not an issue of frames themselves though. saryn is just one way to do that and yea, the others arent as efficient but there will always be one most efficient way. the bigger discussion should be lead about more content which improves the need for teamplay and the actual power frames have nowadays in my opinion.

still, u have to remember that not everyone is a teamplayer and warframe tries to adress everyone. random squads usually dont have much teamplay, which starts with the loadout already...so innately teamplay in random groups is a counterargument to go too ham and cheese on missions requiring teamplay already and most of us play with randoms i dare say. if u play exclusively with friends then u can just leave saryn or any other "nuke" in ur orbiter and dont have to bother with what others outside of ur session play.

early game is not really something u can adress just by nerfing frames around low level. the concept of growing stronger brings the issue that once u do low level things others will just be bystanders, especially in games where u have a mission based design like warframe does, or dungeons in mmorpgs for example. if a high lvl vet joins a low level instance then good bye challenge, hello walk in the park. u do want to grow stronger in a looter...u dont want to go back to low level content because why ever and then see that ur still more or less as weak as back when u started because some script scales ur stats down to the level of the mission...thats prolly the worst u could do in a game like warframe.

we are too powerful after a certain point for the content thats usually played and nuke frames are the ones where its most noticable, by design. the core issue is content itself though. if we had content which required actual teamplay and gave value to every single frame, even more supportive ones, then the current "issue" wouldnt be as present and AoE dmg alone wouldnt be as powerful if enemies could withstand it better in regular content.

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This thread takes sweeping turns towards constructive and then back to personal attacks. I want to encourage good discussion on the topic, but only if the thread remains civil and does not degrade into personal attacks. If it tilts back towards the latter, then it will get locked. Please keep your discussion civil and constructive, please.

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Quote

thats more a design issue. if u decide to design a dmg frame then better make it good or it will just be a pointless effort. the issue clearing lv 60 rooms easily is more of an issue of game difficulty. warframes, weapons and mods grew more powerful over the years whilst content is still waiting for a growth in terms of difficulty aside of enemy scaling, which noone has to play above level ~110. thats not an issue of frames themselves though

This just completely goes over my head.

The fact that Warframes keep growing in power keep outpacing the content is not a Warframe problem?

Is keeping Warframe's power in line with the content's difficulty level somehow an inherently bad thing, and it's content's fault that it didn't manage to keep up?

"Enemies are too weak" is a problem, but "Player is too strong" is not?

Is everything just supposed to infinitely scale in power?

Quote

the core issue is content itself though. if we had content which required actual teamplay and gave value to every single frame, even more supportive ones, then the current issue wouldnt be as present and AoE dmg alone wouldnt be as powerful if enemies could withstand it better in regular content. 

Support and CC was more prevalent back when a single Warframe wasn't capable of removing all the threat on its own.

Lack of teamplay comes from the fact that one player can do an entire team's work.

Quote

if a high lvl vet joins a low any level instance then good bye challenge, hello walk in the park.

ftfy

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vor 2 Stunden schrieb zhellon:

You're out of synthesis range. Mobs will spawn around the host, which means you cant see mobs if will go far.(For example on survival missions.) I don't think you've ever done what you say.

Enemies spawn where ever a player is. 

That's why you should stay together in void vissure to get enough.. 

May you should rethink what you wrote? 

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vor 4 Minuten schrieb VentiGlondi:

The fact that Warframes keep growing in power keep outpacing the content is not a Warframe problem?

Is keeping Warframe's power in line with the content's difficulty level somehow an inherently bad thing, and it's content's fault that it didn't manage to keep up?

"Enemies are too weak" is a problem, but "Player is too strong" is not?

 

by design issue i meant frames themselves, not warframe as a game and its also not really an issue in a typical sense imo since if u want to keep frames and weapons interesting u need to introduce not just interesting new ideas but also stronger ones, or it will just be labled MR fodder so new frames/weapons/mods are bound to be stronger.

its just that when u have a looter which gets more interesting and stronger loot added over the years then content needs to follow up in terms of difficulty.

i mean powercreep is a thing...and thats basically what im talking about.

 

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13 minutes ago, VentiGlondi said:

 

 

This just completely goes over my head.

The fact that Warframes keep growing in power keep outpacing the content is not a Warframe problem? 

It certainly isn't a Warframe specific issue. Every source of damage in the game has been powercreeped. Primed mods, Rivens, Hunters Munitions, Condition Overload, Body Count/Blood Rush are all examples of this along with the base stats of weapons getting higher over time. For a long time Boltor Prime was the best primary in the game, then it got powercreeped into irrelevancy, then it got a pretty good buff and it still isn't top tier.

 

IMO, it isn't an easy situation to solve and when or if DE decides to tackle it they will undoubtedly upset a good chunk of the player base that likes that aspect of the game.

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24 минуты назад, (PS4)NewcastleDisease сказал:

Enemies spawn where ever a player is.

very often one can observe that the mobs have very little or no, if you're far away from the player at number 1. 

Although I thought, and understood, that this in principle not matter. Running away from the players is like playing solo. Makes sense to me, then, to play the game online if I still play alone?

 

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Not my Saryn T_T lol, I must confess at never having been toppled for top damage and kills using my Saryn since her rework (only use her during Onslaught) but at least I'm always spinning around and killing fools 😉

 

Edit: Realized you must meant nuking with her 4...gross that's so boring.

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We don't need an ember "rework" repeat. Honestly when when you play public you accept what comes with it. If you don't like that playstyle, my advice would be to recruit a squad or play solo. 

You're new and that's completely fine but you'll come to understand that after doing the same thing for the 1000th time, that saryn will seem more attractive as an option.  

Also, nuking is saryn's identity. She's the plague frame. 

Keep in mind that warframe is a power fantasy too. That's what gets people hooked.

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Saryn Main here 

its not fair to ask devs to nerf warframe just because few players abuse its abilities ... i use here 1 and 3 only and i use her 4 only as a panic button when am surrounded by many mobs in small area or if i want to rev someone 

yes 90% or maybe 95% of the time iam the 1st in kills and dmg% but guess who always (or most of the time) can get higher than me? mesa prime and eqnux because they dont have to move to kill enemies while my saryn have to jump all over the map to spread the spores and kill ... all they need to do is just sit there and kill BUT if i abused spammed saryn 4th i will be higher than them but i dont like do that bcos its not fun to me  ... am not complaining am just saying what i saw 

in any game there are always 1 or 2 characters that may considered OP and dps goddess so its not a sin to have that in warframe .. here we have 40 characters and i think 6 or max 10 are considered OP including saryn eqnux and mesa and Ember was there too but now RIP.. we even have a character that literally cant die even if he wants too (inaros) and another character that can stay invisible 100% of the time and CC the whole map (ivara) and kinda loki..keep in mind that this is a PVE game not PVP 

if they nerf all OP wf to what Ember became it wont be fun anymore 

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17 hours ago, SSI_Seraph said:

We don't need an ember "rework" repeat. Honestly when when you play public you accept what comes with it. If you don't like that playstyle, my advice would be to recruit a squad or play solo. 

You're new and that's completely fine but you'll come to understand that after doing the same thing for the 1000th time, that saryn will seem more attractive as an option.  

Also, nuking is saryn's identity. She's the plague frame. 

Keep in mind that warframe is a power fantasy too. That's what gets people hooked.

As someone earlier stated, the Ember rework was a result of nobody knowing how they were going to rebalance her. The end result is what we have now. Saryn needs LoS and range nerfs so she can't destroy everything 50+ meters away from her whenever players mash her 4.

Regarding that "play solo" point, I suggest you go back a page. I copy+pasted a response to someone suggesting it. Also, nobody should have to go on LFG chat just to ask to run one single mission that isn't even noteworthy in the slightest, leave, then ask for another so they can avoid playing with a broken frame.

Nuking isn't an identity, it's an abuse of mechanics borne from players wanting to cheese past the game's excessive reliance on grinding. You can argue that she's a DPS frame, but there's so many other DPS frames that doesn't suck the fun out of the game for everyone not playing but had the misfortune of teaming up with them. You can have a DPS frame without trivializing the game.

Also, power fantasy isn't an excuse to ignore balance. There are ways you can feel powerful without simplifying the experience down to pressing 1 button until everything's dead and walking to extraction. That is just mindless button mashing at this point, to watch a bunch of affinity points flash on your screen. Pretty sure that's not how DE intended the game to be played.

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17 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

The end result is what we have now. Saryn needs LoS and range nerfs so she can't destroy everything 50+ meters away from her whenever players mash her 4.

First that's not how to play saryn effectively to begin with and that was nerfed with her reworks. her 4 is bad alone unless you're playing against garbage enemies that no frame should struggle against.

17 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

Regarding that "play solo" point, I suggest you go back a page. I copy+pasted a response to someone suggesting it. Also, nobody should have to go on LFG chat just to ask to run one single mission that isn't even noteworthy in the slightest, leave, then ask for another so they can avoid playing with a broken frame.

Second, you're not gonna force randoms to play the way you want. In any giving game public means you accept anything that's thrown at you.

17 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

without trivializing the game.

She doesn't, maybe try to up the level a bit and she turns into an armor stripper rather than a dps nuking a room. ESO is an exception because of enemy density. OFC in hydron or any low level mission, the game is gonna be trivialized because those are low level missions. If we nerf everything a new player sees as op get ready to welcome 30 embers because last time I checked nearly all the frames with AOEs can "nuke" low level missions.

17 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

power fantasy isn't an excuse to ignore balance

if you think that needs balance. go check that mesa actually using one ability and nuking everything she looks at or revenant dealing % max health on reave.

17 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

Pretty sure that's not how DE intended the game to be played.

Except they did when modes like ESO exist and basicly force you into this or spamming maiming to keep up with the efficiency drop effectively.

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Just keep playing, level up your stuff, unlock more frames, get to higher tier content.  Once you get there, you will be happy you have a Saryn on your team.  High level she won't be one shotting as much but instead armor stripping and allowing the team to take out targets easier.

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2 hours ago, xRufus7x said:

It certainly isn't a Warframe specific issue. Every source of damage in the game has been powercreeped. Primed mods, Rivens, Hunters Munitions, Condition Overload, Body Count/Blood Rush are all examples of this along with the base stats of weapons getting higher over time. For a long time Boltor Prime was the best primary in the game, then it got powercreeped into irrelevancy, then it got a pretty good buff and it still isn't top tier.

 

IMO, it isn't an easy situation to solve and when or if DE decides to tackle it they will undoubtedly upset a good chunk of the player base that likes that aspect of the game.

Okay, well, that is true.

The paradox is that enemies did in fact also grow stronger, but the gap between player and AI enemy is still greater than it ever was.

Quote

High level she won't be one shotting as much but instead armor stripping and allowing the team to take out targets easier.

If only I could reach that high level earlier than 1 hour into survival 😢

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il y a 3 minutes, VentiGlondi a dit :

If only I could reach that high level earlier than 1 hour into survival

I saw a diffculty checkmark on that white board, Here's hoping.

 

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9 minutes ago, (NSW)Badger said:

Did we get the ultimate question yet?

Who is the cutest Warframe?

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9 минут назад, VentiGlondi сказал:

Who is the cutest Warframe?

32f68ab10bd29063f81beb4534feafccae463cba

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22 minutes ago, VentiGlondi said:

Who is the cutest Warframe?

Zanuka!

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Warframe needs PVP.  Or at least competitive PVE. It's clear from this thread and the amount of people getting competitive over number of kills a team mate is getting based on what warframes they use, and arguing about subjective "interactivity" requirements and how fast things should be done and just being plain envious or petty over someone doing something faster than they can, that people want something to compete over. The game by design didn't demand it, and allows for chilled play. It lets MR 26s taxi a bunch of low MR people to Hydron and lets those low level people grab XP from the MR 26 doing some nuking. But apparently some people do not like this and I've seen them even call this leeching and worthy of reporting in these forums. This is why charity is dying. Instead of letting people with more, do favours for people with less, we get people complaining against those with more to make those with more become lesser so everyone is equally lesser. :clap: 

Just cash in on this thirsty competitive logic, start making PVP objectives and be done with it. Not just leaderboards. Actual in-game awards for successfully doing certain things or actions the most in a match.

Awards for fastest to reach extraction. Awards for most kills. Awards for highest % efficiency average in ESO. Awards for tanked most damage (give tanky warframes or players in general more options to draw aggro to themselves so tanks can do tanking things if they so desire). Awards for people who healed allies most. Awards for people who give energy to allies the most. Awards for most fish caught per minute. Awards for most animals conserved per x amount of time. Awards for every single thing you can measure and let it be tangible rewards. Heck, even make warframe-specific awards. Add new options to matchmaking, where you can choose Wukong-only teams, Limbo-only teams, Atlas-only teams, Saryn-only teams, etc. Let the 7 and growing number of wukong mains duke it out and see who is best at slaying with their golden staff and worthy of the title of monkey king. Let the Saryns out-toxic each other and fight over limited number of targets to infect. Rewards come in terms of a boost to the endo, the credits, mod drop rate percentages, whatever, earned, based on how you play.

I mean, it clearly was made to be a chill co-op game, but based on how people talk and act on forums, this is clearly insufficient and people are tripping over each other over the existence of DPS frames like Saryn, I'd say might as well justify these petty competitive arguments on forums, and give them real reasons to trip each other by making competitive awards for actions in a match. 

 

Tl;dr Game has no PVP or competition and people are so bored that they PVP each other in words on the forums. Might as well put PVP or competitive PVE (with actual rewards and not just leaderboards) in game and be done.

 

 

Note: this post was written half in jest, but as I wrote more, I also began to see an appeal of something like "Fastest cloudwalker" "Fastest vault cracker" etc. in-game, per match accomplishments.

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Saryn needs a LOS restriction. Most of the objections in this discussion could be taken care of by limiting spore spreading to LOS.

Hell, they could even up the damage of spores to make up for it, but this lazy map clearing has to stop.

We have several examples of DE going this route in the past. The arguments traded back then where the same here and in the end DE found solution that ensured that all players could contribute...

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