Can something be done about Saryn?

[Sea_Blue_Stars]

1 hour ago, AkyFenrir said:

 I can do same things as nerf requesters now yeah :

THIS! JUST THIS IS THE PROBLEM! i'm kinda good at this too!

Making fun of the people arguing against you doesn't make your argument look any better. 

1 hour ago, AkyFenrir said:

My problem with this idea is very simple. Nukers are made to be AOE dps, therefore they kill a lot of low level ennemies quickly. That's their point. You are complaining that Saryn kills too quickly so let me ask this. How do you nerf Saryn without it being into the ground ? If you're expecting people to be able to shoot at things it would mean one thing only => nukers can't nuke anymore. There's litteraly no way around it,

Let's say DE change spore so LOS is needed to extend spores, it would become nearly impossible to expand spores making it a nerf into the ground too?

If you make her ult LOS it another nuke would take it's place immediately, and we would get a "nerf new nuke" posts again until they all get nerf and somehow Saryn gets back to light (despite nerfs) and should be nerf again? because  nukers are bad and stuff.

Make it kill a set number of enemies. Or a certain percentage. Thin the herd instead of wiping the map. 

There are a lot of ways that could keep her useful. But apparently, making her more fair for teammates to play with is a big no-no.

1 hour ago, AkyFenrir said:

If you don't understand my message stating everything is so nerfed because they affect people pew pew gameplay that trinity would be the last one standing to be able to let the team deal with ennemies... What am I supposed to say ?  

You're missing the entire point of what everyone else is saying, no matter how it is worded or how many times they say it. 

Saryn's ability to wipe the entire map is beyond rediculous. 

Nuking the entire map isn't fun for everyone else. 

This is a cooperative game and nukes are the least cooperative thing in this game. 

1 hour ago, AkyFenrir said:

Rules are NOT a bad thing, they're a good thing... Rules change gameplay doing exactly what you're asking for ! And strong is relative, fast warframes are "strong" in rescue/capture, yet i don't see anyone being like "hey this guy got there so fast i couldn't hack to save the hostage" or "Hey i didn't even reached the target area he was on extraction"? Because they can shoot stuff irrelevant to the mission so it's just fine ?

That's probably because bringing a Volt to a Rescue mission doesn't eliminate gameplay for everyone else. They still have to run, get through enemies, and still deal with the wonky hostage AI. The gameplay isn't eliminated for them. They still get to play.

That's the issue with Saryn and by extension other nukes. She takes the gameplay away from everyone else. 

That is a problem. Eliminating gameplay for others is wrong.

5 hours ago, uAir said:

It's usually some new-ish player who thinks the game should be played and made in his image that is the one complaining.

You know, think of it this way. Those players are going into missions not wanting to be carried. But they wind up carried and unable to do anything.

And it happens often enough that they get tired of it. 

That's why they get vocal about it. They're saying "Isn't it unfair that I can't do anything in the mission while Saryn stands in one spot and kills everything, while I'm frantically running around the map trying to kill things?" 

They're not asking for the game to be made in their image and I'm honestly wondering what kind of mental gymnastics its taking to get to that conclusion. 

They're asking for better balance between Warframes. 

1 hour ago, AkyFenrir said:

That's exactly what those warframes are, DE made those so solo players could have fun. And now it's used as an argument against nukers 🙂

Then keep them solo or for premade squads. I bet you there are tons in recruiting looking for a Saryn to take along with them. 

Playing her solo also works for the "power fantasy" side that people seem so focused on.

[AkyFenrir]

il y a une heure, Sea_Blue_Stars a dit :

Making fun of the people arguing against you doesn't make your argument look any better. 

Well, i'm pointing out the fact they've no arguments, making it funny is still better to me than being insulting.

il y a une heure, Sea_Blue_Stars a dit :

Make it kill a set number of enemies. Or a certain percentage. Thin the herd instead of wiping the map. 

There are a lot of ways that could keep her useful. But apparently, making her more fair for teammates to play with is a big no-no.

 

Saryn is NOT the only nuker in the game, nerfing her will just switch people to another warframe and nerf requesters will go for that one. By your definition "Ember" is fair for teammates right now. Wouldn't say it's such a great thing too look for. She's not cleaning all the map and is super weak. I would never ever consider EMBER is the direction the game should go.

There's an obvious problem we'll never solve anyway. I like Nukers and you don't, there's no argument that would change that anyway.

 

il y a une heure, Sea_Blue_Stars a dit :

You're missing the entire point of what everyone else is saying, no matter how it is worded or how many times they say it. 

Saryn's ability to wipe the entire map is beyond rediculous. 

Nuking the entire map isn't fun for everyone else. 

This is a cooperative game and nukes are the least cooperative thing in this game. 

Your focus on saryn proves you don't get that she's not the only one... And if you don't know about other nukers to introduce them in this very debate about nuking abilities, i think you don't have the knowledge to discuss this, 

il y a une heure, Sea_Blue_Stars a dit :

That's probably because bringing a Volt to a Rescue mission doesn't eliminate gameplay for everyone else. They still have to run, get through enemies, and still deal with the wonky hostage AI. The gameplay isn't eliminated for them. They still get to play.

That's the issue with Saryn and by extension other nukes. She takes the gameplay away from everyone else. 

That is a problem. Eliminating gameplay for others is wrong.

Unless if you think "running" accross weak ennemies dealing you 0 damage is "gameplay" than you should request a nerf for them too. And the AI goes 95% Of the time to the fastest player.

This is eliminating gameplay too. I won't type again my argument you completely ignored anyway.

il y a une heure, Sea_Blue_Stars a dit :

You know, think of it this way. Those players are going into missions not wanting to be carried. But they wind up carried and unable to do anything.

And it happens often enough that they get tired of it. 

That's why they get vocal about it. They're saying "Isn't it unfair that I can't do anything in the mission while Saryn stands in one spot and kills everything, while I'm frantically running around the map trying to kill things?" 

They're not asking for the game to be made in their image and I'm honestly wondering what kind of mental gymnastics its taking to get to that conclusion. 

They're asking for better balance between Warframes. 

The op doesn't know the game, because he made this post the first time he saw a nuker, sadly was a saryn could have been any other one, it would have been about those.

You're going in a discussion "You deny my gameplay so your gameplay should be denied". That's never a good argument.

I'm sure you know about mental gymnastics :)

Funny thing ! You people never thing about raising ennemy resistance instead of killing frames. It's easier to do an emotionnal reaction to a warframe than thinking i guess.

il y a une heure, Sea_Blue_Stars a dit :

 

Then keep them solo or for premade squads. I bet you there are tons in recruiting looking for a Saryn to take along with them. 

Playing her solo also works for the "power fantasy" side that people seem so focused on.

You know, it's funny to see you keep quoting me and answering to people i've been quoting myself. The thing is you completely ignore what i was talking about. If you just react to a single person without reading the entire subject and what i'm talking about, you should reconsider answering you know ?

This quote was not about Saryn, it was about : 

 

using Harrow, Nidus, or Capacitance Volt. Frames, who's abilities require you to damage or kill the targets in order to get the most out of them. Even if I'm using Rage Inaros or Oberon, I dislike playing with nukers since the enemies frequently die before they can shoot at me.

 

So thank you for quoting me out of context to present my arguments the way you want, it's a terrible way to debate.

[Cubewano]

11 hours ago, sinnae said:

I mean...you have the option to queue for a sortie solo. But you didn't. You didn't want to, or couldn't, do the thing alone. Then you ask that your teammates tailor their playstyles to your need for a difficulty level/team comp/team synergy that is *perfectly suited* to your personal desires?

ROFL

People running sorties every single day as a routine do not need to tailor their nuke builds for the benefit of your ~fresh experience~.

When I want to feel challenged or want to play at my own pace, I queue solo.

This is a co-operative shooter and the primary experience should be appealing to that. Being restricted from group play, or public matchmaking, and risking your ability to even have involvement in play just for having the desire to play with others should not even remotely be a norm or even a possible outcome at all. That's just an entirely unhealthy premise on its own, group play should be a broadly positive thing that enhances play, there shouldn't be instances where playing in a group prevents you from actually being able to play sheerly because of terrible game balance, that its become so standard as it has today is just all the worse.

But you are right on one thing, players shouldn't have to tailor themselves personally for a good co-operative experience, that should be on DE as the facilitators of the games balance and design to make it so players aren't so heavily impacting others experiences during co-op play, and its why people are requesting a nerf and not personal policing. 

Overall this matter isn't about challenge though, or having fine tuned pacing, it's about how a player should never be put in a position during gameplay where another person (a single person in a four person co-op shooter) can completely remove their (and the rest of their teams even) involvement in the game. It's saying people at least deserve some sort of bare minimum in terms of gamepaly at any period in a match, that the option to be just fully shut out by some over performer shouldn't exist. (and lets be honest, the level of killing nukes achieve is well beyond anything necessary for pushing objectives efficiently in all but like one game mode, in all other content they have no real reason to exist to the extent they do outside number fluffing vanity)

[ShockBurst]

I wouldn't want Saryn to get a not well thought out nerf and end up useless like Ember, but something should be done. It's truly broken if a player doesn't even see 70% of the enemies they kill. That's just how destructive Saryn is and I also feel this boredom at times when she's in the match.

[uAir]

4 hours ago, Sea_Blue_Stars said:

You know, think of it this way. Those players are going into missions not wanting to be carried. But they wind up carried and unable to do anything.

And it happens often enough that they get tired of it.

If those players don't want to get carried then they can solo and carry themselves.
Because invariably, if they play in a public group they are asking for other teammates to do some of the work for them. If you want to do all of it yourself, play solo.

[(PSN)The1stAzrael]

9 hours ago, Test-995 said:

Honestly that's the problem with those frame's design, because not only nukers, every one of squadmate (frame doesn't really matter, anything that can kill lot, or anyone who has superior aim than you) can remove your precious "resource" by killing it.

They are solo frame and not really coop friendly i guess.

While Nidus and Inaros are solo frames, Volt, Oberon and Harrow are not.

Harrow is a greedy support, he can be a kill-hog, but he doesn't strip the game and any of your team-mates of their ability to actively contribute, unlike nuke frames. You can stay within enough range to receive the benefits of his abilities, and still gain a reasonable amount of kills and resources.

Volt is something of a team nuke. Capacitance also grants shields to your team-mates; not to mention, electric damage tends to fall off around level 100(?), however, it's Tesla chain effect can still hold enemies in place long enough for you and your team to finish them off with other abilities or weapons.

Oberon is a jack-of-all-trades support. Playing Oberon is beneficial to both solo and co-op players; his kit is actually fairly well balanced and his survivability potential is immense. His Renewal allows you to heal your squad without having to micro-manage them, or consistently stay within their range, unless they somehow lose it. Phoenix Renewal becomes remarkably handy during long missions, where any stray grenade could take you out.

8 hours ago, AkyFenrir said:

If you don't understand my message stating everything is so nerfed because they affect people pew pew gameplay that trinity would be the last one standing to be able to let the team deal with ennemies... What am I supposed to say ?  

About nukers being essential, at this point i can say, There's no skills essential to the game? Sure it would make things longer but hey ?

That's exactly what those warframes are, DE made those so solo players could have fun. And now it's used as an argument against nukers 🙂

If everything was nerfed to that extent, then surely Trinity would no longer be as viable as she is now.

Do you permanently dis-trust DE's judgement, simply because of a nerf that took place, almost 2 years ago? I am no fan of DE, but I am willing to give them the benefit of doubt. Since that Ember debacle, they have taken some strides to produce better frames. Despite my own opinions of Wisp and Hyldrin I can see that they are fairly reliable frames, and many people find them enjoyable. The scenario you're describing would be the absolute death of this game, and it's extremely hyperbolic to say that DE would go as far as that in their attempts to please the crowd. And I think they know that.

I don't want nukers to be nerfed into the center of the earth. I want them re-balanced, so that other people can actually play the game, rather than being forced into solo mode, or given little to nothing to do.

But apparently, that means I want to nerf everything until nukers deal only -5 damage per target and healers have to kill themselves in order to gives buffs to their team-mates.

Edited August 17, 2019 by (PS4)The1stAzrael
typo

[Duduminador]

17 hours ago, DatDarkOne said:

Here's the interesting thing about that.  Before Ember was nerfed, most of us who knew better had said in all the Nerf Ember topics that players would just move to Saryn if/when Ember got nerfed.  

Post Nerf:  Look what happened just as we said it would.  

That said, should Saryn get nerfed, the players would just move on to the next frame and this whole process would just get repeated again and again until all frames are nerfed.  Why, because there will always be some players that will be salty of another frame for whatever reason.  

 

All frames nerfed/balanced across the board... is... the... ideal scenery tho...

[sinnae]

It's probably close to impossible to balance the power fantasy of each individual player being the protagonist, the special tenno, the singular hero of their own world, with fair and equitable teamplay, in game modes where the objective is killing or completing an objective as quickly as possible.

The solution probably doesn't lie with nerfing any of the dps/nuke frames but rather creating team-based activities where there are mechanics *other* than rapid extermination. Eidolons do this pretty well in that I can play a support or buffer frame and not topfrag in terms of damage numbers but still feel useful and involved. There are true cooperative mechanics in a tridolon bounty (imo). Of course if you queue tridolons solo you'll occasionally run into Chromas and Volts that are so hyper-minmaxed that they basically delete all three bosses in one shot, but those instances are far rarer. Most of the time I come away from a tridolon feeling like I had an active role and was an active participant and adequately challenged.

To me, tridolons are some of the best-balanced and most engaging team experiences in Warframe, and the closest I can get to that Destiny raid/dungeon feeling. Profit-taker fails miserably at this because of the damage-gating design etc. imo.

[Sea_Blue_Stars]

5 hours ago, AkyFenrir said:

So thank you for quoting me out of context to present my arguments the way you want, it's a terrible way to debate.

No one has been quoting you out of context, dude. Taking specific points to focus on them one at a time isn't trying to twist it, that's how debating works. I'm quoting you directly, and responding accordingly. If you want to see that as being out of context, that's your problem. 

5 hours ago, AkyFenrir said:

Well, i'm pointing out the fact they've no arguments, making it funny is still better to me than being insulting.

They do have an argument, you're just choosing to ignore it. Which, again, is on you.

Even if you think they don't making fun of them just makes your argument look worse, and quite frankly, empty. It makes it look like you have nothing left to refute points besides being childish and insulting. 

I don't mean any of this to sound rude, it's meant to be taken as friendly advice. 

5 hours ago, AkyFenrir said:

Saryn is NOT the only nuker in the game, nerfing her will just switch people to another warframe and nerf requesters will go for that one. By your definition "Ember" is fair for teammates right now. Wouldn't say it's such a great thing too look for. She's not cleaning all the map and is super weak. I would never ever consider EMBER is the direction the game should go.

There's an obvious problem we'll never solve anyway. I like Nukers and you don't, there's no argument that would change that anyway.

The thread is focused on Saryn, so that's going to be the focus. It's literally called "Can something be done about Saryn?"

And you're right, I don't like nukes. I choose not to play them, and I avoid them whenever I can. I have played nukes and found it incredibly boring and mindless gameplay. Some of my favorite Warframes to play with are support or have a fun gimmick. 

It's fine to like nukes, but you have to acknowledge how they don't even have to see or interact with or even know about the existence of their enemies to kill them. Even some other more powerful frames with a lot of killing power have to have line of sight for their abilities to kill. They're not cooperative, they're not great for working with the team. That much, at least to me, is undeniable.

There needs to at least be some reconsideration on nuke frames overall. 

No one is asking for them to be nerfed into the ground, and you keep missing that. You keep talking about them ending up like Ember, when I really don't think they're going to do something like that again. No one is asking for Ember to happen to another Frame. They just want Saryn, and by extension, other nukes, to be slowed down enough for other people to be able to keep up. 

No one is asking for another Ember-like nerf. I have said this before. 

Believe it or not, I don't think another Ember nerf to nukes would be a good thing. I think they need another look, and as unpopular an opinion as it may or may not be, I'm willing to trust DE if and/or when they do. Ember was a long time ago. They've surely learned more about it since. I'm willing to trust them to rework nuking. 

To restate, I agree that an Ember-level nerf isn't a good solution, but that does not mean that there shouldn't be something done. 

5 hours ago, AkyFenrir said:

You're going in a discussion "You deny my gameplay so your gameplay should be denied". That's never a good argument.

I'm sure you know about mental gymnastics 🙂

Funny thing ! You people never thing about raising ennemy resistance instead of killing frames. It's easier to do an emotionnal reaction to a warframe than thinking i guess.

(This one got a little weird because I had to copy an extra line from the original post after accidentally deleting said line, so apologies for that)

I'm saying no one should be denied actual gameplay, and in a lot of cases, nukes are the ones denying people's gameplay.

I really don't want to get into whose acting out emotionally. Debates tend to get emotional, and I get why. Everyone gets attached to the Warframes they like. I know I'm attached to my favorite Warframes.

Look, I don't care if you think I'm using mental gymnastics. I don't want to get into some petty insult war over this. That said, the fact that you come across as trying to be insulting and upsetting doesn't help your argument. Instead of trying to insult people, try to be persuasive. Counter points. Be to-the point and factual. That's what debating is for, isn't it? Trying to make a point that might change the mind of the other person somewhat? 

Being insulting, weather subtly or more straightforward, doesn't do anything for your argument. 

Again, this is meant as friendly advice. Take it as you will, but my intentions are to help. 

[Cibyllae]

21 minutes ago, Sea_Blue_Stars said:

The thread is focused on Saryn, so that's going to be the focus.

Then the thread isn't focused on the actual problem and should be closed for being a non-issue.

[(PSN)The1stAzrael]

11 minutes ago, Cibyllae said:

Then the thread isn't focused on the actual problem and should be closed for being a non-issue.

Looking at all the varying arguments in this thread, all of which are centered on Saryn, I'd say it's a definite issue. 

How severe it actually is, depends on who you're asking.

[MichaelKnightro]

The issue is that a lot of the gameplay available caters to nuke frames. Nerfing Saryn isn't a solution to the nuke problem, because people will just bring the next best thing. I'd just bring my Mesa and still kill everything before you'd get a chance to even look at the red dots on the map. The only real content where Saryn shines is ESO, but that because if how her synergies work with the unique enemy spawn mechanic. For everything else, we could be having this same argument about a dozen other frames as well.

 

 I also don't really see how a nerf gets rid of the problem, unless you completely change her playstyle or kit. I mean, a less powerful Saryn is still going to revolve around spreading spores and getting them to nuke as many enemies as possible. The only issue is that with a less powerful Saryn, you'd essentially have a useless frame.

 

[Blexander]

1 hour ago, Sea_Blue_Stars said:

No one is asking for another Ember-like nerf. I have said this before. 

Nobody asked for Ember to get nerfed the way she was either, but we still got the equvalent of CBT in the form of a nerf.

It always starts like this. "Can something be done about X?", "Why is X so damn strong?", etc.

[DatDarkOne]

5 minutes ago, Blexander said:

Nobody asked for Ember to get nerfed the way she was either, but we still got the equvalent of CBT in the form of a nerf.

It always starts like this. "Can something be done about X?", "Why is X so damn strong?", etc.

EXACTLY!!!

[Cibyllae]

1 hour ago, (PS4)The1stAzrael said:

Looking at all the varying arguments in this thread, all of which are centered on Saryn, I'd say it's a definite issue. 

Arguments can be centered around something that is a non-issue?

[(XBOX)Zweimander]

Next up on the nerf train if sayrn gets beat with the nerf bat is equinox, I can garuntee it. And Sayrn doesnt need a nerf to begin with either way so it accomplishes nothing. She has the best ability synergy in the game and requires knolege of how she functions to work late game so no change is needed...

[(XBOX)Zweimander]

Ignore this...

Edited August 17, 2019 by (XB1)Zweimander
Bad internet.

[(XBOX)Zweimander]

Ignore this...

Edited August 17, 2019 by (XB1)Zweimander
Bad internet.

[(XBOX)Zweimander]

1 hour ago, MichaelKnightro said:

The issue is that a lot of the gameplay available caters to nuke frames. Nerfing Saryn isn't a solution to the nuke problem, because people will just bring the next best thing. I'd just bring my Mesa and still kill everything before you'd get a chance to even look at the red dots on the map. The only real content where Saryn shines is ESO, but that because if how her synergies work with the unique enemy spawn mechanic. For everything else, we could be having this same argument about a dozen other frames as well.

 

 I also don't really see how a nerf gets rid of the problem, unless you completely change her playstyle or kit. I mean, a less powerful Saryn is still going to revolve around spreading spores and getting them to nuke as many enemies as possible. The only issue is that with a less powerful Saryn, you'd essentially have a useless frame.

 

Yep the only place I use her is in ESO myself because Equinox and any other DPS is better for most mission types. She excels in places where thileir is a constant flow of high level enemies to feed her spores and thats just how she is. If your using her instead of Equinox or even EMBER for a low level exterminate your doing it wrong because she is to energy ineficient if you min max her for total nukage...

[Basalto]

DE can't do much about her without pissing the "I don't like playing a game" crowd off, and I sure hope these people get hardcore tilted by the end of the year. I'm a bit lazy to expand on it now, but the current Saryn and the nuke mentality is a consequence of the game design more than people themselves loving the nuke playstyle. ESO is a place that forces you to spam Saryn to the point where the game won't actually give you enough enemies to kill and you'll fail. Blame not the drugs, maybe those who sell them, but absolutely blame the ones who buy it; there's no selling when there's no buying.

[(PSN)The1stAzrael]

1 hour ago, Cibyllae said:

Arguments can be centered around something that is a non-issue?

Again, how severely you consider the problem of nuke frames depends on how the issue affects you. For you, Saryn may be a non-issue, but for myself and others it is.

It's like, I'm never starving or going hungry, because I don't live in a poor environment. Just because hunger and starvation isn't a major problem for me, doesn't mean it's not a problem for someone else. 

Edited August 17, 2019 by (PS4)The1stAzrael
typo

[Cibyllae]

35 minutes ago, (PS4)The1stAzrael said:

Again, how severely you consider the problem of nuke frames depends on how the issue affects you. For you, Saryn may be a non-issue, but for myself and others it is. 

It's like, I'm never starving or going hungry, because I don't live in a poor environment. Just because hunger and starvation isn't a major problem for me, doesn't mean it's not a problem for someone else. 

Its a non-issue because if you nerf saryn, volt or equinox is just going to fill that vacuum. Acting like nerfing Saryn solves the 'nuker frame" issue is shortsighted.

 

Are you one of those people that thinks they can solve world hunger by giving money to homeless people?

 

[Test-995]

5 hours ago, (PS4)The1stAzrael said:

While Nidus and Inaros are solo frames, Volt, Oberon and Harrow are not.

Harrow is a greedy support, he can be a kill-hog, but he doesn't strip the game and any of your team-mates of their ability to actively contribute, unlike nuke frames. You can stay within enough range to receive the benefits of his abilities, and still gain a reasonable amount of kills and resources.

Volt is something of a team nuke. Capacitance also grants shields to your team-mates; not to mention, electric damage tends to fall off around level 100(?), however, it's Tesla chain effect can still hold enemies in place long enough for you and your team to finish them off with other abilities or weapons.

Oberon is a jack-of-all-trades support. Playing Oberon is beneficial to both solo and co-op players; his kit is actually fairly well balanced and his survivability potential is immense. His Renewal allows you to heal your squad without having to micro-manage them, or consistently stay within their range, unless they somehow lose it. Phoenix Renewal becomes remarkably handy during long missions, where any stray grenade could take you out.

You are thinking it differently, i said they are solo frames because they have maximum performance in solo, not because they can do whatever solo and don't need help of squadmate.

With that in mind, latter 2 isn't actually a solo frame, since both of them can works well with saryn and doesn't have any problem for "no enemies".

[(PSN)The1stAzrael]

10 minutes ago, Cibyllae said:

Its a non-issue because if you nerf saryn, volt or equinox is just going to fill that vacuum. Acting like nerfing Saryn solves the 'nuker frame" issue is shortsighted.

 

Are you one of those people that thinks they can solve world hunger by giving money to homeless people?

 

Except, unlike Equinox and Volt, Saryn and Mesa have nothing else to offer other than damage.

With Equinox, you have 5 different ways to play her. You could play sleep, damage, buff, healer or duality. She's not locked into one specific role, like Saryn or Mesa.

Same goes for Volt, who has at least 3 different build styles. Eidolon hunter, speed melee, and Capacitance. Even if their nuke abilities were removed or heavily nerfed, you'd still have 2 very decent frames.

If that happened to Mesa or Saryn, they would have nothing. No matter how you look at it, that isn't a well designed character.

And no, I am very wary of homeless people. Given the abundance of resources the population has access to, here in America, it'll take a lot to die of starvation.

 

[(PSN)The1stAzrael]

10 minutes ago, Test-995 said:

You are thinking it differently, i said they are solo frames because they have maximum performance in solo, not because they can do whatever solo and don't need help of squadmate.

With that in mind, latter 2 isn't actually a solo frame, since both of them can works well with saryn and doesn't have any problem for "no enemies".

Every frame has maximum performance in solo. Even a solo Vabaun could keep the defense objective safe.

As I had mentioned pages ago, Volt can't really build up the same amount of shields using Discharge, if almost everything is dead. That is a problem that nuke frames typically encounter. They have to compete with one another for kills, in a way that a majority of the frames don't.

When I play Oberon, I have to keep my energy up so I can have Renewal running for as long as possible, so naturally, I'll be using Rage or Hunters Adrenaline. I need enemies to target me, but they can't do that if they're dead. Even if I split off from the main group, at least one person will end up following me, and eventually, I'll be back in range of the nuke frame.