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MrRixter

Can something be done about Saryn?

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I can understand the fustration in this for you as a new player. However theres something to be understood here.

The problem isnt sayrn. The problem is high level players with high level mods on lower level missions. Theres at least 5 frames that can do what your concerned about better that sayrn.

I suppose the issue is more that warframe is basically runs on a open MMO RPG system. At some point a player becomes so OP they trivulise the early game, yet are not prevented from playing in the same waters as new players.

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11 hours ago, VentiGlondi said:

Who is the cutest Warframe?

Nekros, obviously.

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Evaluate it as you want. The operator was not used.

Спойлер

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I think I could do all 8 waves if I strained. Am I the only one who thinks it's not normal?

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, zhellon said:

Evaluate it as you want. The operator was not used.

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I think I could do all 8 waves if I strained. Am I the only one who thinks it's not normal?

No it is very normal you have a pimped out weapon mod with healing return to sustain you that you can just constantly keep attacking and use mold to draw fire away when you get in trouble to recover.

I could of done the exact same or even better with a strong melee weapon with lifesteal and a frame with either invisibility or other survivability tools.

Also you are Zenruik which means you had all the energy you needed to use your 1 and 2 just enough to keep you going. 

I found your post so bait you are trying to present a point by posing a question when the onus is on you to prove your point with supporting arguments yet you have a thinly veiled biased post where you put the onus on the reader to disprove/discredit what you are saying. That is border line trolling 

 

 

Edited by ramious23
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44 минуты назад, ramious23 сказал:

Also you are Zenruik which means you had all the energy you needed to use your 1 and 2 just enough to keep you going.

I use vazarin. Don't play with zenuric.

46 минут назад, ramious23 сказал:

No it is very normal you have a pimped out weapon mod with healing return to sustain you that you can just constantly keep attacking and use mold to draw fire away when you get in trouble to recover.

I could of done the exact same or even better with a strong melee weapon with lifesteal and a frame with either invisibility or other survivability tools.

Look, I put 2 mod and increase my efficiency by almost 3 times. And I'm still not making much of an effort.

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Posted (edited)
20 minutes ago, zhellon said:

I use vazarin. Don't play with zenuric.

Look, I put 2 mod and increase my efficiency by almost 3 times. And I'm still not making much of an effort.

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What is your actual point ? You are making claims that can't be substantiated because you only provide screenshots which don't depict the entire story. As an example your screenshot shows you are gaining Zenruik which directly implies you use the school, despite you saying otherwise. There is no way to validate any of your claims wether you are or aren't or even of you used the aforementioned set up as you could of easily took screenshots of those loadouts put on more stuff then done the mission. Not saying that is what you did put the point still stands.

You bring up subjective notions of "no effort". What you deem as "no effort" might be alot of work for someone else. Your subjective opinion is quite frankly doesn't hold alot of weight of you are trying to prove to me that a frame is too strong. You need to substantiate with valid arguments, points and facts which you fail to do.

The previous point I made still stands I could easily (in what I deem as "easily") have done the same if not better on many different frames including Saryn, does that mean they should all be nerfed? To what end ? So we can massage your fragile ego that your preferred frame wasn't able to replicate the same results in the specific situation you are presenting ...

I mean you can still play your preferred frame equip it with items and achieve the same net goal. 

Ultimately in Warframe long term players that deck out their characters reach power spikes/levels to trivialize content. That is a general theme in most mmos/RPGs.

If this bothers you so much then maybe you should stick to single player games where no other player can make you feel invalidated for out performing you.

The real underlying issue isn't with Saryn, it is with a fundamental way the game is designed. As per the OPs intial argument of feeling frustrated because he wasn't able to participate in a lower level mission where a frame (i.e, any geared frame can do this) overpowered said low level mission in damage/kills.

The only real remedy to this would be to create a scaling game mode where you could chose to enter a mission with players that scale to the level of the mission to keep older content retain its relative strength. This however would have to be completely optional and a conscious choice a player makes going into a mission.

Edit:

I also found it interesting how you completely chose to ignore the points I brought about why you were able to achieve what you did.

Which was cause of your melee weapon and healing and much less cause of your frame. Something that can be replicated on many many many frames with a good melee weapon and life steal.

Edited by ramious23
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@ramious23 The fact that I have a zenuric focus Lenses does not mean that I use this school, because I can really use each of them, as I have a full pumping.

At the moment, the power of my computer does not allow me to record a video, but I think anyone can repeat these tests. And I only encourage if instead of useless discussions about the power of Saryn, people go and provide any evidence. And both camps may well do it, showing all the severity or ease of the game for Saryn. 

 

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Posted (edited)
23 hours ago, zhellon said:

You're out of synthesis range. Mobs will spawn around the host, which means you cant see mobs if will go far.(For example on survival missions.) I don't think you've ever done what you say. 

This isn't quite true.  The below quite is closer to the truth.

20 hours ago, (PS4)NewcastleDisease said:

Enemies spawn where ever a player is. 

That's why you should stay together in void vissure to get enough.. 

May you should rethink what you wrote? 

Me and various other players have noticed and actually proven that enemy radar does influence mob spawning in survival missions.  DE Glen (I think) tried to say that it wasn't in the coding, but multiple players have proven that the interaction does in fact exists.  

edit:  Granted that it is somewhat hard to test without using a frame like Ivara who can stay invisible for the whole duration of the testing.  

Edited by DatDarkOne

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vor 2 Minuten schrieb DatDarkOne:

Me and various other players have noticed and actually proven that enemy radar does influence mob spawning in survival missions.  DE Glen (I think) tried to say that it wasn't in the coding, but multiple players have proven that the interaction does in fact exists.  

I would really like to know how something like that can be ,,proven". How do you count the enemies if you can't see them on the map. Or how do you want to make the exact same conditions?

And about the ,,Saryn nerf" topic. Imo she doesn't need a nerf. She is only usable in survival and defense missions. The Heck even Volt would deserve a nerf more than her just because he is usable in every mission.

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On 2019-08-02 at 12:18 PM, Wyrmius_Prime said:

There's honestly no point in nerfing any other Warframes until Mesa gets nerfed.

Exactly, when you have a Mesa on the mission you can't do anything else, i much prefer a Saryn that lets me at least shoot the enemies.

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Le 15/08/2019 à 10:39, Pizzarugi a dit :

I will say this though: If DE allowed players to have a matchmaking blacklist, forbidding them from joining a game or letting people join theirs if they're using a blacklisted thing like certain weapons or frames, I'd totally support it and it would make your argument more credible.

At this point, there are already a lot of dead nodes in the game, i wouldn't encourage anything that would remove that, as mentionned before not every saryn is built correctly anyway and punishing people who can't build it, or are in the process for it is a terrible idea... It takes me 2 Seconds to think that people would lock out anything that isn't meta for a specific mode, you might think not, and if you do you're an idealist, nothing wrong with that but it can't translate in something positive.

 

 

Le 15/08/2019 à 12:20, Sea_Blue_Stars a dit :

I agree, Saryn needs another look. 

She is doing exactly what Ember did, just on a much larger scale and without punishment. Ember was too good at killing, so they nerfed her into the ground. Then they turned around and made Saryn a nuke, to my understanding.

While Saryn makes missions go by faster, I find she sucks the fun out of it. She leaves nothing for the rest of the squad to do. She kills through walls, all while standing in one spot. 

Please explain again how this isn't a problem? I'm genuinely curious.

Pretending that Ember was weaker than saryn is now is sooooooo WRONG! There was just one button to push for all the mission, in comparison saryn requires "more work" to do what ember did... I get that people could be confused about Ember, because it's quite an old nerf but we're not quite there yet with Saryn...

 

Imo the big problem here is a dual discourse going on:

 

1/ New players get a quite challenging experience and at some point they will meet their first other nuke player... Those players don't get why nuke is a thing since they've never encountered it before and don't have the full vision about what warframe is and the fact there's stuff to do. Most complaints turn around " i can't shoot or play", and it can't be so wrong, bringing a speed nova, a ev trin, a rhino boost can make things go faster. However you've to accept that you won't be first in kills... And some players never get that and want to nerf nukes for that reason.

 

2/ The whole difficulty thread and how I do think it's wrong based on the information we got so far.

Everytime some "new" mechanic is introduced by DE, there's a lot of nerf request (see arbitration rez recently for example ?). A place where you death was final is challenging... it isn't as challenging now.

This whole thing, the game can't be challenging as long as we get rid of the nukes is a dangerous thing. As far as I'm concerned warframe is a typical power fantasy... Destroying this power fantasy would make me reconsider playing the game and a full twist in the game design is never a good thing...

Warframe makes everything accesible to everyone and it's a good thing. 

I've done the raids before, both of them, wasn't perfect but if nobody gets there it's bad for a F2P game!

Can we get some new modes that would keep their difficulty ? probably yes, DE talks about resurrecting raids. I'll probably do those if they come out.

Wanting to completely change a games mean one thing: you don't like the game. There are games that are known to be difficult and are required to be less difficult, i'm not one of those people, if it's not for me it's fine ! 

I can't think of any game who did started in a power fantasy and turned out in a very skill based game! Other way around is a thing however. I'd like to know if you find examples for this :)

Have a nice day everyone !

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Il y a 3 heures, AkyFenrir a dit :

Wanting to completely change a games mean one thing: you don't like the game.

This is where you completely missed the point. People who complain about nukers do like the game, their main concern is that they can't basically play it because of selfish players (call that a power fantasy if you want - we aren't here to make psychological profiles) who are only spamming already overpowered powers, thus preventing other players from doing anything, at all. No one is or has to like that. No one forces you to overuse already strong abilities, Saryn doesn't need to spam her 4th every 5s - her spores aren't ruining most people gameplay and spores alone are a huge part of her gameplay.

Last time i told a guy he was ruining other players experience for his own profit (hence playing solo in a coop game), he told me he didn't care, cause he was having fun that way.

That's where we are now, in 2019, in a so-called coop game where only 4 people have to play together. I've played lots of games, many MMOs along with 60-30-20-10-5 players teams, things weren't that bad at first. Now you only have a bunch of idiotic kids who barely care about anything but themselves and the funniest part - They're proud of it.

Tbh WF is barely enjoyable if you dont' have friends or family to play with. If i was alone here i would have stopped playing it a long time ago.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, ES-Flinter said:

I would really like to know how something like that can be ,,proven". How do you count the enemies if you can't see them on the map. Or how do you want to make the exact same conditions?

How I did it was by doing multiple survival runs solo as Ivara with and without enemy comparing the enemy density, amount killed, behavior, and times.  Each time it was very noticeable difference within just the first 5 minutes each time.  Xzorn (if i remember correctly) also did a similar type test and posted the results in DE Glen's Ask Me Anything topic about a month or two ago.  

It was previously a "rumored fact" until Glen said it wasn't true and then others presented data proving otherwise.  😀 

edit: It's one those cases where the code says it suppose to do one thing, but other parts of the code is effecting the true outcome.  

 

Edited by DatDarkOne

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8 hours ago, zhellon said:

Evaluate it as you want. The operator was not used.

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I think I could do all 8 waves if I strained. Am I the only one who thinks it's not normal?

I have solod up to zone 12 with my sayrn who has an umbra forma installed and quite the min maxed build for maximum DPS but that still requires staying on the move and using all my abilities past zone 8. People who think she only has to press two buttons and nothing else do not truly know how to play her at the highest and anyone can see that. And on your zone that is just skill on your part and making it work despite gimping yourself. The average noob would of dropped the ball way sooner and you seem to show some good skill with her mechanics to have made it that far with her modded how you did.

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3 hours ago, AkyFenrir said:

1/ New players get a quite challenging experience and at some point they will meet their first other nuke player... Those players don't get why nuke is a thing since they've never encountered it before and don't have the full vision about what warframe is and the fact there's stuff to do. Most complaints turn around " i can't shoot or play", and it can't be so wrong, bringing a speed nova, a ev trin, a rhino boost can make things go faster. However you've to accept that you won't be first in kills... And some players never get that and want to nerf nukes for that reason.

The problem, to me at least, is that there is no way to actually contribute. Who wants to just have to sit around and do nothing? That's one part of the issue. People want to be able to contribute. It isn't about who gets the most kills. 

I'm actually particularly interested in your "However you've to accept that you won't be first in kills... And some players never get that and want to nerf nukes for that reason." Point. 

Have you considered that maybe the nuke players might be the ones focused on getting all the kills? They certainly do seem to like doing that. 

Tangents aside-

4 hours ago, AkyFenrir said:

This whole thing, the game can't be challenging as long as we get rid of the nukes is a dangerous thing. As far as I'm concerned warframe is a typical power fantasy... Destroying this power fantasy would make me reconsider playing the game and a full twist in the game design is never a good thing...

Call it a power fantasy all you want, but Warframe is a co-op game.

This is in no way cooperative.

That's the problem. Nuking the entire map is not working with your team. At its best it can be annoying and at its worst its downright selfish. 

It's about being allowed to participate and contribute to the team.

That's the problem.

I really don't know how it can be made much clearer.

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20 hours ago, Xepthrichros said:

Warframe needs PVP.  Or at least competitive PVE. It's clear from this thread and the amount of people getting competitive over number of kills a team mate is getting based on what warframes they use, and arguing about subjective "interactivity" requirements and how fast things should be done and just being plain envious or petty over someone doing something faster than they can, that people want something to compete over. The game by design didn't demand it, and allows for chilled play. It lets MR 26s taxi a bunch of low MR people to Hydron and lets those low level people grab XP from the MR 26 doing some nuking. But apparently some people do not like this and I've seen them even call this leeching and worthy of reporting in these forums. This is why charity is dying. Instead of letting people with more, do favours for people with less, we get people complaining against those with more to make those with more become lesser so everyone is equally lesser. :clap: 

Just cash in on this thirsty competitive logic, start making PVP objectives and be done with it. Not just leaderboards. Actual in-game awards for successfully doing certain things or actions the most in a match.

Awards for fastest to reach extraction. Awards for most kills. Awards for highest % efficiency average in ESO. Awards for tanked most damage (give tanky warframes or players in general more options to draw aggro to themselves so tanks can do tanking things if they so desire). Awards for people who healed allies most. Awards for people who give energy to allies the most. Awards for most fish caught per minute. Awards for most animals conserved per x amount of time. Awards for every single thing you can measure and let it be tangible rewards. Heck, even make warframe-specific awards. Add new options to matchmaking, where you can choose Wukong-only teams, Limbo-only teams, Atlas-only teams, Saryn-only teams, etc. Let the 7 and growing number of wukong mains duke it out and see who is best at slaying with their golden staff and worthy of the title of monkey king. Let the Saryns out-toxic each other and fight over limited number of targets to infect. Rewards come in terms of a boost to the endo, the credits, mod drop rate percentages, whatever, earned, based on how you play.

I mean, it clearly was made to be a chill co-op game, but based on how people talk and act on forums, this is clearly insufficient and people are tripping over each other over the existence of DPS frames like Saryn, I'd say might as well justify these petty competitive arguments on forums, and give them real reasons to trip each other by making competitive awards for actions in a match. 

 

Tl;dr Game has no PVP or competition and people are so bored that they PVP each other in words on the forums. Might as well put PVP or competitive PVE (with actual rewards and not just leaderboards) in game and be done.

 

 

Note: this post was written half in jest, but as I wrote more, I also began to see an appeal of something like "Fastest cloudwalker" "Fastest vault cracker" etc. in-game, per match accomplishments.

Warframe has PvP...

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7 hours ago, zhellon said:

I use vazarin. Don't play with zenuric.

Look, I put 2 mod and increase my efficiency by almost 3 times. And I'm still not making much of an effort.

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@ramious23He's got you here

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il y a une heure, Sea_Blue_Stars a dit :

Have you considered that maybe the nuke players might be the ones focused on getting all the kills? They certainly do seem to like doing that. 

Tangents aside-

Call it a power fantasy all you want, but Warframe is a co-op game.

This is in no way cooperative.

That's the problem. Nuking the entire map is not working with your team. At its best it can be annoying and at its worst its downright selfish. 

It's about being allowed to participate and contribute to the team.

That's the problem.

I really don't know how it can be made much clearer.

I can't talk about everyone, as far as i'm concerned i'm looking for efficiency, i'm most of the time not playing the nuker, i'd rather go on trinity/rhino/nova to makes things go faster, that's how i manage to contribute. I expect to see nukers in defense mission, by going support i know i'll be able to contribute. I'm doing ESO on premade to maximize efficiency anyway. 

And if i puck a nuker it's to make a mission i don't like done quicker, and i'll get much more by being in a full team than solo.

So there are ways to contribute and make the mission faster, if you don't pick a support, that's on you i'm afraid.

 

Everytime i see a post about saryn it's always "i can't do a thing". Things can be done... Willing to nerf a warframe because you don't want to play support is a bad thing imo.

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vor 12 Stunden schrieb chaotea:

I can understand the fustration in this for you as a new player. However theres something to be understood here.

The problem isnt sayrn. The problem is high level players with high level mods on lower level missions. Theres at least 5 frames that can do what your concerned about better that sayrn.

I suppose the issue is more that warframe is basically runs on a open MMO RPG system. At some point a player becomes so OP they trivulise the early game, yet are not prevented from playing in the same waters as new players.

I disagree, this has nothing to do with power disparity between veterans and new players.

Saryn has huge scaling(!) damage potential, a big range, she circumvents armor (which is a big one), she halves enemy HP for the whole team and is also quite tanky.

That alone is way more most damage frames can hope for.

No LOS requirement for spores on top of that shifts her in a terrain where here map clearing affects others players fun.

There's no reason for her to be in this game in her current implementation when there are frames who have to run around corners,parkour through maps to reach the enemies - without any real payback for the effort.

We have frames like Harrow that rely on aiming and hitting certain parts of the hitboxes to work optimally.  In the time a harrow needs to find a target, Saryn already has melted most enemies, forced them in erratic hitrecovery animations or generally painted the whole map with visual noise that makes it impossible to see anyhting zoomed in. It's a clash of game designs.  

Sorry, I've yet so see an arguement that convinces me why of all frames Saryn should have LOS-ignoring damage. Those discussions remind of those before the nerfs of Ash, Mesa, Excalibur and Ember.

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vor 22 Minuten schrieb AkyFenrir:

Willing to nerf a warframe because you don't want to play support is a bad thing imo.

Be careful, that sounds alot like "Accept my frame-choice, choose yours accordingly and be satisfied with playing support, plebs."

Also, accepting imbalance at the expense of others just because it helps reducing grind time is not what I would call desirable.

 

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il y a 42 minutes, AkyFenrir a dit :

I can't talk about everyone, as far as i'm concerned i'm looking for efficiency, i'm most of the time not playing the nuker, i'd rather go on trinity/rhino/nova to makes things go faster,

 

il y a 12 minutes, Sahansral a dit :

Be careful, that sounds alot like "Accept my frame-choice, choose yours accordingly and be satisfied with playing support, plebs."

Also, accepting imbalance at the expense of others just because it helps reducing grind time is not what I would call desirable.

 

It's funny how doing specific out of context quoting can help your cause right?

I can return your argument too, wanting to nerf a warframe is one "accept my warframe gameplay, choose yours accordingly and be satisfied without Saryn, plebs"

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49 minutes ago, AkyFenrir said:

Everytime i see a post about saryn it's always "i can't do a thing". Things can be done... Willing to nerf a warframe because you don't want to play support is a bad thing imo.

No one should have to play support but go off. 

Support characters are useful, but players shouldn't have to play a cartain kind of frame to feel like they're making a contribution. 

6 minutes ago, AkyFenrir said:

It's funny how doing specific out of context quoting can help your cause right?

I can return your argument too, wanting to nerf a warframe is one "accept my warframe gameplay, choose yours accordingly and be satisfied without Saryn, plebs"

It really wasn't taken out of context. 

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2 hours ago, AkyFenrir said:

Willing to nerf a warframe because you don't want to play support is a bad thing imo.

Saryn and Mesa (among others) don't even need support frames though, they don't even need anything but themselves.

Support frames aren't needed BECAUSE of the power balance issues, nevermind the endless energy economy that we have now, Harrow is outperformed by Operators and Energy Pizzas. Damage buff frames only stack more damage on top of already overkill damage and defensive frames are only needed in Defense missions when the point is reached that a stray bullet one-shots the defense target. Then there's Vauban, who has never been more useless because dead enemies are better than CC'd enemies.

There is slowly becoming no place for any frame that can't wipe a tileset every 5 seconds by itself, sure the frames can exist and be played, but why bother when the power gap is so large that playing anything else is deemed "inefficient" and shoved to the wayside.

That being said I will play my Excalibur until Warframe's servers go down no matter how "inefficient" it gets.

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il y a une heure, Sea_Blue_Stars a dit :

It really wasn't taken out of context. 

Yes sure, removing the part where i say i'm a support player to accuse me i'm forcing people to play support so i could play a nuker isn't out of context. If you don't understand the world "context" there's nothing i can do sorry.

il y a 3 minutes, Aldain a dit :

Saryn and Mesa (among others) don't even need support frames though, they don't even need anything but themselves.

Support frames aren't needed BECAUSE of the power balance issues, nevermind the endless energy economy that we have now, Harrow is outperformed by Operators and Energy Pizzas. Damage buff frames only stack more damage on top of already overkill damage and defensive frames are only needed in Defense missions when the point is reached that a stray bullet one-shots the defense target. Then there's Vauban, who has never been more useless because dead enemies are better than CC'd enemies.

There is slowly becoming no place for any frame that can't wipe a tileset every 5 seconds by itself, sure the frames can exist and be played, but why bother when the power gap is so large that playing anything else is deemed "inefficient" and shoved to the wayside.

That being said I will play my Excalibur until Warframe's servers go down no matter how "inefficient" it gets.

We had endless energy before with Ev trinity ... she still does it for ESO. Don't see the problem with damaging buff frames they're useful. Defensive frames are usefull in endless missions not only defense, if you think so you've a misunderstanding of warframe game modes. Vauban is useless because they made Limbo, and limbo is very usefull against every ennemies, vauban was only good against infested. I would point out, talking about a warframe needing a buff isn't an argument for a warframe nerf! 

Nerfing nukers to the ground would have a Impact on the player base, you seem to believe it would be a positive one, I think it would be a bad one. Point is none of us got info about this. 

Ember used to be the previous Saryn,  not seen  a single ember in any game mode in the past year ! That's what nerfing a single nuker does, that's what nerfing saryn would do. 

Nerfing isn't a solution, it would destroy the current balance that would need a full rework making warframe a different game.

 

I don't want that. I'm not complaining about any game difficulty because it's a game identity. 

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