Can something be done about Saryn?

[Cibyllae]

24 minutes ago, (PS4)The1stAzrael said:

With Equinox, you have 5 different ways to play her. You could play sleep, damage, buff, healer or duality. She's not locked into one specific role, like Saryn or Mesa.

Same goes for Volt, who has at least 3 different build styles. Eidolon hunter, speed melee, and Capacitance. Even if their nuke abilities were removed or heavily nerfed, you'd still have 2 very decent frames.

If that happened to Mesa or Saryn, they would have nothing. No matter how you look at it, that isn't a well designed character. 

First, if we're going to play this game of build styles, you can build Saryn as melee, debuffer, speed, tank, cc, and support. So your statement that because Saryn is unlike volt and equinox in that Saryn has only one build path, and that this is what makes her poorly designed frame, is just not true. Because Saryn can be built many different ways.

Second just because a frame can be played multiple ways doesn't mean the community is not going to abuse and exploit the frame. Just because Volt can be played many different ways isn't going to stop people from abusing him as a dps frame. Again, just because equinox can be played many different ways isn't going to stop people from abusing her as a dps frame.

So again, trying to nerf Saryn isn't going to get rid of the "problem that is nuker frames" because there are plenty of other frames to take her place. Which then call forth another wave of new players that have no conception of the history of this game and ask for things which are mistakes we have already committed ala ember. And if you think that this time will be any different, you probably think real communism hasn't been tried yet too. We have nerfed aoe frames in the past yet here we are in the current year asking for the same exact thing that never fixes the problem.

Like i said in my first post, this thread should just be closed, because this griping about Saryn is a non-issue. Nerfing Saryn isn't going to do anything about the actual problem. So why keep talking about nerfing Saryn if it isn't going to fix the problem you are trying to solve?

[Test-995]

47 minutes ago, (PS4)The1stAzrael said:

Every frame has maximum performance in solo. Even a solo Vabaun could keep the defense objective safe.

As I had mentioned pages ago, Volt can't really build up the same amount of shields using Discharge, if almost everything is dead. That is a problem that nuke frames typically encounter. They have to compete with one another for kills, in a way that a majority of the frames don't.

When I play Oberon, I have to keep my energy up so I can have Renewal running for as long as possible, so naturally, I'll be using Rage or Hunters Adrenaline. I need enemies to target me, but they can't do that if they're dead. Even if I split off from the main group, at least one person will end up following me, and eventually, I'll be back in range of the nuke frame.

No, 4 vauban is better than solo vauban, you can make it even more safer.

And well, volt capacitance is a problem of that augment/ability, because if you NEED enemies to work, that is against the game mode that you (or everyone but you, staticor/atterax user won't wait for you just because your abilities doesn't work) have to kill enemies ASAP and keep place clean as possible.

And honestly, idk if you are actually having problem with oberon, my friend with oberon never had a problem like that in both arbitration or ESO when i was using saryn.

If you are on hydron, perhaps they just don't have enough firepower for sustaining your energy, how about go for little more efficient build then?

 

Edited August 18, 2019 by Test-995

[(PSN)The1stAzrael]

1 hour ago, Cibyllae said:

First, if we're going to play this game of build styles, you can build Saryn as melee, debuffer, speed, tank, cc, and support. So your statement that because Saryn is unlike volt and equinox in that Saryn has only one build path, and that this is what makes her poorly designed frame, is just not true. Because Saryn can be built many different ways.

Second just because a frame can be played multiple ways doesn't mean the community is not going to abuse and exploit the frame. Just because Volt can be played many different ways isn't going to stop people from abusing him as a dps frame. Again, just because equinox can be played many different ways isn't going to stop people from abusing her as a dps frame.

So again, trying to nerf Saryn isn't going to get rid of the "problem that is nuker frames" because there are plenty of other frames to take her place. Which then call forth another wave of new players that have no conception of the history of this game and ask for things which are mistakes we have already committed ala ember. And if you think that this time will be any different, you probably think real communism hasn't been tried yet too. We have nerfed aoe frames in the past yet here we are in the current year asking for the same exact thing that never fixes the problem.

Like i said in my first post, this thread should just be closed, because this griping about Saryn is a non-issue. Nerfing Saryn isn't going to do anything about the actual problem. So why keep talking about nerfing Saryn if it isn't going to fix the problem you are trying to solve?

But she doesn't excel at those rolls, or even become co-op friendly regardless of the role you try placing her in because her kit so heavily focused on damage.

Her spores tick damage far too quickly for her to debuff or CC the enemies, so she can't do that. 

People label her as tanky, but if I'm playing with a Saryn in a mission above level 25, chances are, they'll go down at least once. And that's being optimistic.

Saryn's kit basically forces her back into the nuke role, since that is what her survivability depends on.

My point was, if DE goes through and nerfs all the nuke frames, Saryn will end up like Ember because she has nothing but damage, whereas Volt and Equinox will still be in a decent position. When Banshee was hit with the sound quake nerf, she didn't turn out like another Ember because her kit still offered some very solid abilities. 

Reworking a handful of frames is a much more palatable option compared reworking the entire damage system. 

Funnily enough, the history of this game was built on CC frames, not nukers. However, once the meta shifted (around 2017, I believe) CC frames quickly became obsolete, in favor of damage dealers. Over the years, a general lack of care from the devs has done nothing but solidify CC's position as dead.

These complaints about Saryn aren't a non issue, saying they are makes you appear dismissive and flippant. This topic has been breached multiple times since Saryn was reworked, and they always garner a hefty amount of attention, so obviously this problem is very real.

You also shouldn't assume someone's political opoinions

Edited August 18, 2019 by (PS4)The1stAzrael
typo

[(PSN)The1stAzrael]

56 minutes ago, Test-995 said:

No, 4 vauban is better than solo vauban, you can make it even more safer.

And well, volt capacitance is a problem of that augment/ability, because if you NEED enemies to work, that is against the game mode that you (or everyone but you, staticor/atterax user won't wait for you just because your abilities doesn't work) have to kill enemies ASAP and keep place clean as possible.

And honestly, idk if you are actually having problem with oberon, my friend with oberon never had a problem like that in both arbitration or ESO when i was using saryn.

If you are on hydron, perhaps they just don't have enough firepower for sustaining your energy, how about go for little more efficient build then?

 

One Vabaun can still do a more than competent job of protecting the defense pod in solo.

Capacitance doesn't necessarily need to kill them, it just needs to damage the enemies, but it can't do that if the enemies are dead. Atterax and Staticor users don't present the same level of nuking that a Saryn does.

Your original statement could actually be applied to Saryn, who relies on a steady stream of enemies in order to stack up a considerable amount damage. Saryn does so horribly in lower level missions because she keeps the map too clean.

Of course Oberon isn't going to run into issues in ESO and Arbitrations. ESO spawns in enemies faster than normal modes, and Arbitration enemies start on level 60-70, so of course they'll deal more damage than a level 25-30 enemy.

These issues are prevalent in every gamemode, except maybe POE or OV.

[BLI7Z]

Why not buff everything else then? Maybe the "overpowered" stuff should be they way things should be measured. 

[Sea_Blue_Stars]

16 minutes ago, BLI7Z said:

Why not buff everything else then? Maybe the "overpowered" stuff should be they way things should be measured. 

An interesting take, but I would be wary of that one, as well.

A lot of Frames seem like they are in good spots and don't need much or any work. Some do need a buff.

But nukes are an on a completely different level from either. Their killing power eliminates the gameplay itself, and they don't even really have to do much to do so. 

[Cibyllae]

52 minutes ago, (PS4)The1stAzrael said:

But she doesn't excel at those rolls, or even become co-op friendly regardless of the role you try placing her in because her kit so heavily focused on damage.

Her spores tick damage far too quickly for her to debuff or CC the enemies, so she can't do that. 

People label her as tanky, but if I'm playing with a Saryn in a mission above level 25, chances are, they'll go down at least once. And that's being optimistic.

Saryn's kit basically forces her back into the nuke role, since that is what her survivability depends on. 

Bud I already told you it, it wouldn't matter even if she had your divine blessing and passed all of your purity tests. Just because a frame has multiple roles does not mean their damage spec won't be abused.

58 minutes ago, (PS4)The1stAzrael said:

My point was, if DE goes through and nerfs all the nuke frames, Saryn will end up like Ember because she has nothing but damage, whereas Volt and Equinox will still be in a decent position. When Banshee was hit with the sound quake nerf, she didn't turn out like another Ember because her kit still offered some very solid abilities.  

Ahhh, but that's the catch isn't it? You want all potential for nuke frames to disappear. You just don't like nuke frames and think the game would be better off without them. Why? Because you think nuke frames trivialize game play. Well guess what bud, guess what happens when you take out nuke frames as a whole? You slow down farming, you reduce the rate and which people can acquire rewards. And people are going to leave because of that. THEN, in order to farm people are going to whip out their Nyxs, their Lokis, their FA embers and 175% Eff Max Range Rhinos, and you're gonna have the same problem you had when the nuke warframes were around. You're going to have the same game, with less enjoyable frames, less players, and the same problem.Non-interactive game play.You're going to have the same problem. Stop thinking nerfing things is going to make the problem go away, you're only going to ruin the game for more people.

1 hour ago, (PS4)The1stAzrael said:

Reworking a handful of frames is a much more palatable option compared reworking the entire damage system.

Just because you can doesn't mean you should. Nerfing Reworking a handful of frames is not going to solve the issue you have. And the issue you have is Non-interactive gameplay.

1 hour ago, (PS4)The1stAzrael said:

These complaints about Saryn aren't a non issue, saying they are makes you appear dismissive and flippant. This topic has been breached multiple times since Saryn was reworked, and they always garner a hefty amount of attention, so obviously this problem is very real.

They are a non-issue, because people aren't complaining about Saryn, haven't you been listening? They are complaining about having nothing to shoot. Which is a valid complaint, and nerfing Saryn, or any other nuker for that matter isn't going to fix that problem. Because there is no difference between an enemy that isn't there, and an enemy that is cc'd so that they are not a threat, almost as if they might as well be dead. It's why Vauban's Bastille has a limit on the amount of enemies he can trap. Why? Because people complained about it. Now look where cc frames are, because people complained about them. I am being dismissive because complaining about Saryn isn't going to do anything. And the people who actually think that nerfing her, or nukers in general, is going to solve anything, don't understand the complete issue. And if you are saying things which show you don't understand the problem completely, I'm going to be dismissive of what you have to say. Its not a negative thing to be dismissive, being dismissive is actually a really positive tool that humans need otherwise they get overwhelmed with too much information, And you making me out to be some kind of villain because I make use of a tool you don't seem to hold in high regard only adds to the irony.

 

If you really think you've done the due diligence and think that getting rid of nukers is going to lead the game in the right direction fine, I'll support you all the way to the ballet. Just remember when the game dies because the Devs listened to your opinion it'll be on you.

[Test-995]

1 hour ago, (PS4)The1stAzrael said:

One Vabaun can still do a more than competent job of protecting the defense pod in solo.

Capacitance doesn't necessarily need to kill them, it just needs to damage the enemies, but it can't do that if the enemies are dead. Atterax and Staticor users don't present the same level of nuking that a Saryn does.

Your original statement could actually be applied to Saryn, who relies on a steady stream of enemies in order to stack up a considerable amount damage. Saryn does so horribly in lower level missions because she keeps the map too clean.

Of course Oberon isn't going to run into issues in ESO and Arbitrations. ESO spawns in enemies faster than normal modes, and Arbitration enemies start on level 60-70, so of course they'll deal more damage than a level 25-30 enemy.

These issues are prevalent in every gamemode, except maybe POE or OV.

Hmm, i'm not sure what my "original statement" was, i think i tried to say saryn is not a root of problems and frames that have to kill enemies have a problem, i know saryn doesn't works that good in low level, somehow that enforces my opinion even stronger.

Did we talking about frame power, x frame is bad or good and those kind of things?

So you start to talk about level 25-30 enemies, when nothing is balanced around there, every frames can be stupidly tanky, every weapons could oneshot enemies at those levels, and of course every AoE can kill all the enemies in their range.

And, when you have a problem keeping up your energy with rage, maybe you don't need it at all.

Edited August 18, 2019 by Test-995

[(PSN)The1stAzrael]

2 hours ago, Cibyllae said:

Bud I already told you it, it wouldn't matter even if she had your divine blessing and passed all of your purity tests. Just because a frame has multiple roles does not mean their damage spec won't be abused.

Ahhh, but that's the catch isn't it? You want all potential for nuke frames to disappear. You just don't like nuke frames and think the game would be better off without them. Why? Because you think nuke frames trivialize game play. Well guess what bud, guess what happens when you take out nuke frames as a whole? You slow down farming, you reduce the rate and which people can acquire rewards. And people are going to leave because of that. THEN, in order to farm people are going to whip out their Nyxs, their Lokis, their FA embers and 175% Eff Max Range Rhinos, and you're gonna have the same problem you had when the nuke warframes were around. You're going to have the same game, with less enjoyable frames, less players, and the same problem.Non-interactive game play.You're going to have the same problem. Stop thinking nerfing things is going to make the problem go away, you're only going to ruin the game for more people.

Just because you can doesn't mean you should. Nerfing Reworking a handful of frames is not going to solve the issue you have. And the issue you have is Non-interactive gameplay.

They are a non-issue, because people aren't complaining about Saryn, haven't you been listening? They are complaining about having nothing to shoot. Which is a valid complaint, and nerfing Saryn, or any other nuker for that matter isn't going to fix that problem. Because there is no difference between an enemy that isn't there, and an enemy that is cc'd so that they are not a threat, almost as if they might as well be dead. It's why Vauban's Bastille has a limit on the amount of enemies he can trap. Why? Because people complained about it. Now look where cc frames are, because people complained about them. I am being dismissive because complaining about Saryn isn't going to do anything. And the people who actually think that nerfing her, or nukers in general, is going to solve anything, don't understand the complete issue. And if you are saying things which show you don't understand the problem completely, I'm going to be dismissive of what you have to say. Its not a negative thing to be dismissive, being dismissive is actually a really positive tool that humans need otherwise they get overwhelmed with too much information, And you making me out to be some kind of villain because I make use of a tool you don't seem to hold in high regard only adds to the irony.

 

If you really think you've done the due diligence and think that getting rid of nukers is going to lead the game in the right direction fine, I'll support you all the way to the ballet. Just remember when the game dies because the Devs listened to your opinion it'll be on you.

"Do you permanently dis-trust DE's judgement, simply because of a nerf that took place, almost 2 years ago? I am no fan of DE, but I am willing to give them the benefit of doubt. Since that Ember debacle, they have taken some strides to produce better frames. Despite my own opinions of Wisp and Hyldrin I can see that they are fairly reliable frames, and many people find them enjoyable. The scenario you're describing would be the absolute death of this game, and it's extremely hyperbolic to say that DE would go as far as that in their attempts to please the crowd. And I think they know that.

I don't want nukers to be nerfed into the center of the earth. I want them re-balanced, so that other people can actually play the game, rather than being forced into solo mode, or given little to nothing to do.

But apparently, that means I want to nerf everything until nukers deal only -5 damage per target and healers have to kill themselves in order to gives buffs to their team-mates."

I posted that, shortly before I originally began talking to you; from that post, does it seem like I want to nerf everything that could be perceived as a nuke? I don't think this community will ever be able to have a constructive discussion about this frame, and the many issues it brings, because every thread is hijacked by doom-sayers.

I described a hypothetical situation where DE nerfs every nuker, and you took that as me wanting to have every nuke stripped of their abilities.

I know getting rid of nukes will make some missions longer, I know the consequences DE would be challenged with if they decided to completely destroy their game by decimating well loved characters. Yes, nuke frames do speed up missions, and yes they can come in handy, but there is a point where it shifts from necessary to overkill.

Saryn is the result of a much larger problem. A problem I have repeatedly acknowledge in  the past. This game has grown to big to just be put on hold while a majority of whatever resources Digital Extremes has, is redirected towards rebuilding the damage and scaling system from whatever point it is at now, while fixing enemy AI to make them much more formidable. They are fighting themselves, and the community, that continually clamours from more content, after burning through whatever they just got.

Did you see the forums, after Tennocon? That is what they'd have to go up against.

So when the company is presented with the option to rework a single frame, over an entire system, guess which one they'll choose.

Funny how the complaints about 'having nothing to shoot" almost always coincide with nuke frames....

There is an obvious and immense difference between an enemy that isn't there, and an enemy that is frozen, stunned, or radiated. If the enemy is there, you get a chance to actively contribute by killing it. If there are no enemies how do you contribute? By sitting down and playing thumb twiddling simulator? Even when enemies are CC'd or otherwise unresponsive you still get to actually play the game you signed up for.

A majority of the CC frames that got reworked all had inherent issues. I can understand why people would dislike Limbo's Cataclysm and Stasis, or Vauban's Bastille, I know why Volt's Speed was reworked multiple times until it was just left as it is now. There are CC frames who have remained largely untouched, and they are in their bad position because of how drastically the game has changed since 2013-2017. The meta shifted, arcanes and operators were introduced; primed mods, corrupted mods and rivens were added, and those items only made strong frames and weapons stronger, while our enemies and our older frames have remained neglected.

While being dismissive can sometimes benefits us, it can also work against us. Coming into a debate and asking for it to be shut down, without providing any initial arguments or explanations, is an example of that. You mentioned that I am making you out to be a villain, because your taste differs from my own, but you basically described me as someone who is so far blinded by my own prejudice against nuke frames, that I'd love for them to be completely and utterly ravaged.

Do you see the irony in that?

The game could end up dying if it follows either sides arguments and instructions. How this game will be in 5 years is something you and I have absolutely no clue about. It could even up dying without ever laying another finger on Saryn.

Edited August 18, 2019 by (PS4)The1stAzrael
corrections

[(PSN)The1stAzrael]

4 hours ago, Test-995 said:

And well, volt capacitance is a problem of that augment/ability, because if you NEED enemies to work, that is against the game mode that you (or everyone but you, staticor/atterax user won't wait for you just because your abilities doesn't work) have to kill enemies ASAP and keep place clean as possible.

 

2 hours ago, Test-995 said:

Hmm, i'm not sure what my "original statement" was, i think i tried to say saryn is not a root of problems and frames that have to kill enemies have a problem, i know saryn doesn't works that good in low level, somehow that enforces my opinion even stronger.

Did we talking about frame power, x frame is bad or good and those kind of things?

So you start to talk about level 25-30 enemies, when nothing is balanced around there, every frames can be stupidly tanky, every weapons could oneshot enemies at those levels, and of course every AoE can kill all the enemies in their range.

And, when you have a problem keeping up your energy with rage, maybe you don't need it at all.

In hindsight, I could've worded my response much, much better.

Volt, Saryn and Mesa all need to damage enemies and/or otherwise kill them. However if those three frames end up in a squad they will all be stepping on each other's toes trying to perform their preferred roles. But if any one of those frames are in a mission where the competition isn't as strong, then they'll always come out on top as the strongest the group. Capacitance Volt directly clashes with Saryn and to a lesser degree, Mesa; it's not an issue with the frame, it's augment, or it's abilities. Volt can't get shields if he's with Saryn; Saryn can't build up damage if she's going up against a high strength Volt.

I pitched those to levels against each other as a comparative basis, (since a majority of the regular missions on the starchart stay within those areas) for Arbitration enemies versus regular missions enemies. Unless you strictly play Void missions or Sortie 3 type content (Arbitrations), you aren't going to run into level 60-70 enemies everyday. If I'm not queued with a Saryn, or any other nuker, my Inaros, Nidus, or Oberon have practically no issues with keeping up energy via Rage or Hunters Adrenaline.

[Test-995]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)The1stAzrael said:

In hindsight, I could've worded my response much, much better.

Volt, Saryn and Mesa all need to damage enemies and/or otherwise kill them. However if those three frames end up in a squad they will all be stepping on each other's toes trying to perform their preferred roles. But if any one of those frames are in a mission where the competition isn't as strong, then they'll always come out on top as the strongest the group. Capacitance Volt directly clashes with Saryn and to a lesser degree, Mesa; it's not an issue with the frame, it's augment, or it's abilities. Volt can't get shields if he's with Saryn; Saryn can't build up damage if she's going up against a high strength Volt.

I pitched those to levels against each other as a comparative basis, (since a majority of the regular missions on the starchart stay within those areas) for Arbitration enemies versus regular missions enemies. Unless you strictly play Void missions or Sortie 3 type content (Arbitrations), you aren't going to run into level 60-70 enemies everyday. If I'm not queued with a Saryn, or any other nuker, my Inaros, Nidus, or Oberon have practically no issues with keeping up energy via Rage or Hunters Adrenaline.

Well in first, All of those 3 nuker frames doesn't "NEED" to damage enemies, they can work and sustain themselves without damaging enemies, sure they are proficient in killing but they don't have to if they choose not to.

And actually next one is also not true, when volt can kill enemies faster than spores, saryn can do similar thing with miasma, and since saryn need a little time to stacking up the spore, volt can get their shield in that time (and saryn isn't an instant DPS like equinox anyways), mesa doesn't affected by any of it.

So i say those levels aren't balanced in any degree, when you can melt enemies in a second with AoE guns, every frames are able to disrupt you by running around and just shooting, so saryn itself isn't a big problem. 

[Cibyllae]

1 hour ago, (PS4)The1stAzrael said:

"Do you permanently dis-trust DE's judgement, simply because of a nerf that took place, almost 2 years ago? I am no fan of DE, but I am willing to give them the benefit of doubt. Since that Ember debacle, they have taken some strides to produce better frames. Despite my own opinions of Wisp and Hyldrin I can see that they are fairly reliable frames, and many people find them enjoyable. The scenario you're describing would be the absolute death of this game, and it's extremely hyperbolic to say that DE would go as far as that in their attempts to please the crowd. And I think they know that.

I don't want nukers to be nerfed into the center of the earth. I want them re-balanced, so that other people can actually play the game, rather than being forced into solo mode, or given little to nothing to do.

But apparently, that means I want to nerf everything until nukers deal only -5 damage per target and healers have to kill themselves in order to gives buffs to their team-mates."

I posted that, shortly before I originally began talking to you; from that post, does it seem like I want to nerf everything that could be perceived as a nuke? I don't think this community will ever be able to have a constructive discussion about this frame, and the many issues it brings, because every thread is hijacked by doom-sayers.

I described a hypothetical situation where DE nerfs every nuker, and you took that as me wanting to have every nuke stripped of their abilities.

I know getting rid of nukes will make some missions longer, I know the consequences DE would be challenged with if they decided to completely destroy their game by decimating well loved characters. Yes, nuke frames do speed up missions, and yes they can come in handy, but there is a point where it shifts from necessary to overkill.

Saryn is the result of a much larger problem. A problem I have repeatedly acknowledge in  the past. This game has grown to big to just be put on hold while a majority of whatever resources Digital Extremes has, is redirected towards rebuilding the damage and scaling system from whatever point it is at now, while fixing enemy AI to make them much more formidable. They are fighting themselves, and the community, that continually clamours from more content, after burning through whatever they just got.

Did you see the forums, after Tennocon? That is what they'd have to go up against.

So when the company is presented with the option to rework a single frame, over an entire system, guess which one they'll choose.

Funny how the complaints about 'having nothing to shoot" almost always coincide with nuke frames....

There is an obvious and immense difference between an enemy that isn't there, and an enemy that is frozen, stunned, or radiated. If the enemy is there, you get a chance to actively contribute by killing it. If there are no enemies how do you contribute? By sitting down and playing thumb twiddling simulator? Even when enemies are CC'd or otherwise unresponsive you still get to actually play the game you signed up for.

A majority of the CC frames that got reworked all had inherent issues. I can understand why people would dislike Limbo's Cataclysm and Stasis, or Vauban's Bastille, I know why Volt's Speed was reworked multiple times until it was just left as it is now. There are CC frames who have remained largely untouched, and they are in their bad position because of how drastically the game has changed since 2013-2017. The meta shifted, arcanes and operators were introduced; primed mods, corrupted mods and rivens were added, and those items only made strong frames and weapons stronger, while our enemies and our older frames have remained neglected.

While being dismissive can sometimes benefits us, it can also work against us. Coming into a debate and asking for it to be shut down, without providing any initial arguments or explanations, is an example of that. You mentioned that I am making you out to be a villain, because your taste differs from my own, but you basically described me as someone who is so far blinded by my own prejudice against nuke frames, that I'd love for them to be completely and utterly ravaged.

Do you see the irony in that?

The game could end up dying if it follows either sides arguments and instructions. How this game will be in 5 years is something you and I have absolutely no clue about. Actually, it could even up dying without ever laying another finger on Saryn.

Like I said before you believe you've done the due diligence to support the idea that nerfing nuke frames is the correct path to take,, so I trust in your opinion. Let's just hope you're right and that it works this time.

[Xepthrichros]

2 hours ago, (PS4)The1stAzrael said:

I don't want nukers to be nerfed into the center of the earth. I want them re-balanced, so that other people can actually play the game, rather than being forced into solo mode, or given little to nothing to do.

You don't. But many others do. It's a slippery slope where nobody knows where to draw a line. What constitutes as a sufficient nerf to you might be seen as still OP to another.

 

Therefore I reject the whole lot of you and say NO TO ALL NERFS

[Sea_Blue_Stars]

1 hour ago, Xepthrichros said:

You don't. But many others do. It's a slippery slope where nobody knows where to draw a line. What constitutes as a sufficient nerf to you might be seen as still OP to another.

 

Therefore I reject the whole lot of you and say NO TO ALL NERFS

Nerfs are necessary for balancing a game. 

[Cubewano]

6 hours ago, BLI7Z said:

Why not buff everything else then? Maybe the "overpowered" stuff should be they way things should be measured. 

Because that'd be a ton more work, solve none of the grievances expressed in this thread (it would outright make them far more recurring), rob the game of an enormous amount of playstyle diversity, ruin any possible attempt at game balance outside cheese mechanics, and more or less tank all of co-operative play, among other things.

Suffice to say, making everything a nuke would just make all matters worse, so that's why not. 

 

Edited August 18, 2019 by Cubewano

[MichaelKnightro]

2 hours ago, Sea_Blue_Stars said:

Nerfs are necessary for balancing a game. 

That's absolutely true, but they also come with a cost most of the time. Especially if the reasons behind the nerf are like most people have expressed here. 

The only way to get rid of the issues people have with nuke frames (again, not just Saryn...nerf her and the problem comes back with a new frame) is to have them not kill stuff efficiently anymore. A CC frame is never going to be able to kill as much as a frame that's made for the sole purpose of killing. It's just not going to happen. "Balance" in this case is a bad thing, because if you let a CC frame do as much damage as a damage frame, you end up with frames that are terrible and frames that can CC. And nothing but the same amount of damage or less is going to solve the issues people have.

Maybe I'm being very cynical, but I'd really like to know how we can get rid of the issues people are having with nuke frames and how we can nerf them to get rid of this problem. I don't think this is an easy question to answer and I really don't think that "nerfing Saryn" is the answer. We'll just end up with a whole bunch of salty ex-Saryn mains, and years and years of complaining about the Saryn nerf, while a new frame gets blamed for the same problems and the whole circus starts over again with "nerf Mesa/Equinox/Octavia" posts on the forums. I think the solution lies more in the mission/enemy design and making more content viable for different "roles". Maybe make some enemies immune/resistant to certain frames abilities when playing in a team, so you could still use the frame solo, but be a little less effective in teams. Now, that's a nerf too of course, but at least it's an "easy" solution that actually gets rid of the problems people are having. Or make an enemy that is highly resistant to damage, unless your frame CC's it or "tags" it with melee or whatever and then your frame alone can kill that enemy. (EDIT: I just realized I invented the nullifier...)

 

Edited August 18, 2019 by MichaelKnightro

[Xepthrichros]

2 hours ago, Sea_Blue_Stars said:

Nerfs are necessary for balancing a game. 

I think Saryn is balanced as is. Her role is DPS.

Ivara allows complete cheesing of all spy. But it's fine. Her role is the epitome of stealth.

Nidus, Inaros and other tank frames, tank extremely well.

Chroma can destroy Eidolons and similar bosses.

Trinity, queen of healing and energy giving.

Each of those has their role.

And then there are frames whose roles are undefined and thus less popular and never achieve any kind of meta status (looking at some of those newer frames)

You take away Saryn's nuking and then what? She becomes a hollow molt (pun intended) of her former self? Someone with average diversion skill, average damage buff to her weapons, and 2 weak nuke abilities that can't kill things at sortie level? I.e. maybe slightly better post-nerf Ember, if we are lucky?

No thanks. No nerfs.

 

If you insist on nerfing, then you realize the nerfing will never end. You get rid of the nukers and eventually the meta shifts to either those who survive the best (which already is the meta in Orb Mothers where nuke abilities don't work) or can avoid detection best. The talk will become: why should X or Y warframe have ten or more times the amount of effective HP as another, OR No frame should be able to absolutely and completely avoid all enemy aggro and stay invisible for almost indefinitely, and enjoy their own form of immortality, while team mates die to enemy aggro. There will be a chain of "No one should be allowed to be so strong in one or another way". The eventual end is fashionframe endgame. You achieve "diversity" by actually making everything so equal that there is no point leveling up or farming everything. So effectively no gameplay diversity. Just an illusion. And watch people quit the game because there is absolutely no point farming new frames, leveling up, getting new gear, cos everything is the same and just a bunch of cosmetic visual differences. The experience at MR1 is the same as MR20.

 

New player joins game. He asks: What frame should I get next? Region replies: Everyone. Everyone is fine. No difference. You can do everything with anything. New player: Oh so why should I get these gear then? Why level up and all that. Region: Look nice. New player: They all look like crap though, cheap Iron Man knock-offs. Alt+F4. (tbh warframe in the current state is already a bit like this, I can do anything with everything,  but some frames make some things easier/faster to do than others - and I dread the day when all my warframes work more or less the same with differences being just "flavor") 

Edited August 18, 2019 by Xepthrichros

[Aldain]

2 hours ago, MichaelKnightro said:

Maybe I'm being very cynical, but I'd really like to know how we can get rid of the issues people are having with nuke frames and how we can nerf them to get rid of this problem.

Change the DPS frames to rely on the PS rather than the D.

Or in other words, make nuke frames need to build up to the tileset clearing blasts, which would give CC frames a point to exist to stall until those frames can blast enemies with weapons playing an intermediary role. It would also give support frames more of a reason to be present to help sustain the energy costs leading up to the blasts and defense frames would help cover and protect less durable frames.

There could be some wiggle room for that setup as well, where a frame could be adjusted to function differently through modding so no frame would be locked into one role, like instead of modding for raw power there could also be a way to build Sayrn as a debuffer type frame that spreads Viral and Corrosive more efficiently at the cost of the raw nuke power for example.

The only issue with nuke frames currently is that they are so good at their jobs that other players are trivialized, CC frames can't do their jobs because DPS kill enemies faster than they can be a threat, with the current energy economy that makes support frames less worthwhile too. If they shifted the power to take more time, without reducing the actual damage in the blasts they could both keep the appeal of the damage frames while not making them overshadow other types of frames.

Edited August 18, 2019 by Aldain

[DatDarkOne]

Just boost the health of all enemies by a factor of 10x then all issues are resolved.  😛😈

Mwuhahahahahahaha

[selig_fay]

6 минут назад, DatDarkOne сказал:

Just boost the health of all enemies by a factor of 10x then all issues are resolved. 😛😈

Mwuhahahahahahaha

That's not a bad idea. If you reduce the speed of spawn, it can work. Fewer enemies, but the enemies themselves are stronger.

[DatDarkOne]

45 minutes ago, zhellon said:

That's not a bad idea. If you reduce the speed of spawn, it can work. Fewer enemies, but the enemies themselves are stronger.

Nah, leave the spawn rate the same or even boost it.  Then CC frames will be wanted/used more also.  😀 

[(PSN)The1stAzrael]

9 hours ago, Test-995 said:

Well in first, All of those 3 nuker frames doesn't "NEED" to damage enemies, they can work and sustain themselves without damaging enemies, sure they are proficient in killing but they don't have to if they choose not to.

And actually next one is also not true, when volt can kill enemies faster than spores, saryn can do similar thing with miasma, and since saryn need a little time to stacking up the spore, volt can get their shield in that time (and saryn isn't an instant DPS like equinox anyways), mesa doesn't affected by any of it.

So i say those levels aren't balanced in any degree, when you can melt enemies in a second with AoE guns, every frames are able to disrupt you by running around and just shooting, so saryn itself isn't a big problem. 

Capacitance Volt needs to damage enemies in order to receive shields. Typically, damaging enemies using Discharge kills them, and I'll get a decent amount of shields. If I'm competing with another nuke, I wont damage as many enemies, thus reducing the amount of shields I'll receive. That hinders my survivability, due to the fact that my build is primarily focused on strength, shield mods, and some range. I only have 300 or 480 health.

Saryn also needs to kill or damage enemies, because that is what her kit and survivability depends on. If Saryn just ran around one area without casting any abilities, she would die. Same goes for Volt and Mesa.

I've reread your second sentence multiple times, but I'm still not entirely sure what your point is, but I'll try addressing it as adequately as I can.

With a high strength Volt in ESO, it's only a ten second gap between when you cast Discharge again, cast it too quickly and it'll be locked. Assuming your cast timing is on spot, that only gives Saryn about ten seconds to build up damage using Miasma. The amount of damage Saryn would be able to build during that brief moment largely depends on how good your build is. If you're average, chances are, you wont build up a lot. Outside of ESO, there are almost no limitations on Volt's casting times, making extremely difficult for a less experienced Saryn to build up damage. This same result occurs when you have two Saryns in one mission. The stronger more experienced Saryn will get all the enemies, and the lesser one will have close to nothing to do. How does this also affect Mesa? Well, Mesa's peacemakers have a longer casting animation than say, Spores, or Discharge. By the time the Mesa has cast peacemaker, everything would already be dead.  That is an incredible waste of energy, and it often leads to frustration. When it happens to the worst kind of people, it breeds hatred and toxicity.

One thing I'd like to briefly touch on, is the illusion that Equinox provides an insta-kill button. She doesn't. Maim requires you to build up damage, either through your own abilities and weapons, or your team-mates. Depending on how well versed you are on using Equinox, this can be tricky. Another thing I'd noticed, is that Equinox and Saryn are incompatible. When Equinox detonates her nuke, she wipes everything in the vicinity, including Saryn's spored targets; if you have a high range Equinox, she'll easily end up consistently resetting the Saryn players spores.

I am well aware of the gap between those two levels. You mentioned that your friend wasn't having trouble with you, as a Saryn, in Arbitrations; because Arbitration level enemies don't die as quickly as starchart level enemies, and they deal much more damage than them. A majority of the planets on the starchart are level 30 and under. Only about five planets offer content that is above level 30.

Again, I have zero problems using a Rage or Hunters Adrenaline build, unless I'm paired with nuke frames. The only other issues I'd run into, as an Oberon, would be a Nekros player.

[(PSN)The1stAzrael]

9 hours ago, Xepthrichros said:

You don't. But many others do. It's a slippery slope where nobody knows where to draw a line. What constitutes as a sufficient nerf to you might be seen as still OP to another.

 

Therefore I reject the whole lot of you and say NO TO ALL NERFS

The line is drawn by DE. They decide how far down that slope they'll go. Not to mention, it's pretty clear that they don't always listen to the community.

The problem with these frames, is that, they don't have any limitations on their power. Most DPS characters will have restraints on how many enemies can be affected by their abilities. Warframe doesn't have that, and the community seems to find that idea repulsive, despite how practical it is.

[(PSN)The1stAzrael]

2 hours ago, DatDarkOne said:

Just boost the health of all enemies by a factor of 10x then all issues are resolved.  😛😈

Mwuhahahahahahaha

This is exactly what needs to be done; although it probably wont ever be implemented, due to the way DE typically handles these things.

[Test-995]

1 minute ago, (PS4)The1stAzrael said:

Capacitance Volt needs to damage enemies in order to receive shields. Typically, damaging enemies using Discharge kills them, and I'll get a decent amount of shields. If I'm competing with another nuke, I wont damage as many enemies, thus reducing the amount of shields I'll receive. That hinders my survivability, due to the fact that my build is primarily focused on strength, shield mods, and some range. I only have 300 or 480 health.

He needs damage and having saryn could results less shield, and having tryhard player with whatever frames also results less shield.

Quote

Saryn also needs to kill or damage enemies, because that is what her kit and survivability depends on. If Saryn just ran around one area without casting any abilities, she would die. Same goes for Volt and Mesa.

Actually she won't, she has #*!%ing 300 armor 375 health, and yeah volt and mesa gonna die but both of them have defensive ability that doesn't need enemy to work.

None of their abilities need killing in order to work, they'll just deal damage, but dealing damage doesn't give you anything (beside stacking up spores, wind-up of mesa, and capacitance for volt)

Quote

I've reread your second sentence multiple times, but I'm still not entirely sure what your point is, but I'll try addressing it as adequately as I can.

With a high strength Volt in ESO, it's only a ten second gap between when you cast Discharge again, cast it too quickly and it'll be locked. Assuming your cast timing is on spot, that only gives Saryn about ten seconds to build up damage using Miasma. The amount of damage Saryn would be able to build during that brief moment largely depends on how good your build is. If you're average, chances are, you wont build up a lot. Outside of ESO, there are almost no limitations on Volt's casting times, making extremely difficult for a less experienced Saryn to build up damage. This same result occurs when you have two Saryns in one mission. The stronger more experienced Saryn will get all the enemies, and the lesser one will have close to nothing to do. How does this also affect Mesa? Well, Mesa's peacemakers have a longer casting animation than say, Spores, or Discharge. By the time the Mesa has cast peacemaker, everything would already be dead.  That is an incredible waste of energy, and it often leads to frustration. When it happens to the worst kind of people, it breeds hatred and toxicity.

Sorry but in ESO, volt damage falls off by stupid armor of enemies, so saryn shouldn't have problem with volt... more likely, it's benefitical.

Saryn use spore, and every ten seconds volt use discharge to spread the spore, while he can deal more damage since their armor is stripped.

Outside of ESO, saryn doesn't need to go spores, just spam miasma as volt spam discharge, problem solved.

And again "everyone is ded i don't have things to do" isn't a problem with nukers, since every frame with good weapon can do same, if we gonna nerfing all the nukers, and removing every AoE from the game then that could work.

Quote

One thing I'd like to briefly touch on, is the illusion that Equinox provides an insta-kill button. She doesn't. Maim requires you to build up damage, either through your own abilities and weapons, or your team-mates. Depending on how well versed you are on using Equinox, this can be tricky. Another thing I'd noticed, is that Equinox and Saryn are incompatible. When Equinox detonates her nuke, she wipes everything in the vicinity, including Saryn's spored targets; if you have a high range Equinox, she'll easily end up consistently resetting the Saryn players spores.

I am well aware of the gap between those two levels. You mentioned that your friend wasn't having trouble with you, as a Saryn, in Arbitrations; because Arbitration level enemies don't die as quickly as starchart level enemies, and they deal much more damage than them. A majority of the planets on the starchart are level 30 and under. Only about five planets offer content that is above level 30.

Again, I have zero problems using a Rage or Hunters Adrenaline build, unless I'm paired with nuke frames. The only other issues I'd run into, as an Oberon, would be a Nekros player.

I know, what i mean is that she does all her damage in 0.1second (and going to build up for few second), that means saryn can't spread her spore because enemy numbers will drop to zero in that one second.

I suppose you were just lucky and never met the tryhard memeing striker, but that's different matter i guess.