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Can something be done about Saryn?

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Just now, AkyFenrir said:

it would destroy the current balance

There isn't any balance right now, it is just all dps.

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44 minutes ago, AkyFenrir said:

Ember used to be the previous Saryn,  not seen  a single ember in any game mode in the past year ! That's what nerfing a single nuker does, that's what nerfing saryn would do. 

Nerfing isn't a solution, it would destroy the current balance that would need a full rework making warframe a different game.

 

I don't want that. I'm not complaining about any game difficulty because it's a game identity. 

Here's the interesting thing about that.  Before Ember was nerfed, most of us who knew better had said in all the Nerf Ember topics that players would just move to Saryn if/when Ember got nerfed.  

Post Nerf:  Look what happened just as we said it would.  

That said, should Saryn get nerfed, the players would just move on to the next frame and this whole process would just get repeated again and again until all frames are nerfed.  Why, because there will always be some players that will be salty of another frame for whatever reason.  

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il y a 4 minutes, DatDarkOne a dit :

Here's the interesting thing about that.  Before Ember was nerfed, most of us who knew better had said in all the Nerf Ember topics that players would just move to Saryn if/when Ember got nerfed.  

Post Nerf:  Look what happened just as we said it would.  

That said, should Saryn get nerfed, the players would just move on to the next frame and this whole process would just get repeated again and again until all frames are nerfed.  Why, because there will always be some players that will be salty of another frame for whatever reason.  

Would be funny (sad? hmm) to see people complain they've to have a trinity in every game because since there's no nuker to clear stuff they've to take all damage upfront. And without a trin they can't survive. Either asking for a nerf so that they're not mandatory anymore, or a dps frames buff ? Since at that point invulnerable warframes would be nerfed too anyway.

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6 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

Here's the interesting thing about that.  Before Ember was nerfed, most of us who knew better had said in all the Nerf Ember topics that players would just move to Saryn if/when Ember got nerfed.  

Post Nerf:  Look what happened just as we said it would.  

That said, should Saryn get nerfed, the players would just move on to the next frame and this whole process would just get repeated again and again until all frames are nerfed.  Why, because there will always be some players that will be salty of another frame for whatever reason.  

Ember should have been reworked instead.  I still can't wrap my head around nerfing a frame that could only wipe low level targets….

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à l’instant, (XB1)Thy Divinity a dit :

Ember should have been reworked instead.  I still can't wrap my head around nerfing a frame that could only wipe low level targets….

For the exact same reason people want to nerf saryn, and every other nuker one by one after her... "we can't contribute, we can't shoot stuff". Because somehow, when you say they can play support frame you "force a frame upon them" (because asking a nerf is not forcing something upon those frame players right?).

The fact it killed low level was exactly why it was nerfed. If ember was only good after 100+ she would have stayed untouched. (even if that content was trivialized by her presence)

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3 minutes ago, (XB1)Thy Divinity said:

Ember should have been reworked instead.  I still can't wrap my head around nerfing a frame that could only wipe low level targets….

It was a knee-jerk reaction Nerf to all the whining that was being posted in the forums about Ember.  

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3 hours ago, Aldain said:

Saryn and Mesa (among others) don't even need support frames though, they don't even need anything but themselves.

Support frames aren't needed BECAUSE of the power balance issues, nevermind the endless energy economy that we have now, Harrow is outperformed by Operators and Energy Pizzas. Damage buff frames only stack more damage on top of already overkill damage and defensive frames are only needed in Defense missions when the point is reached that a stray bullet one-shots the defense target. Then there's Vauban, who has never been more useless because dead enemies are better than CC'd enemies.

There is slowly becoming no place for any frame that can't wipe a tileset every 5 seconds by itself, sure the frames can exist and be played, but why bother when the power gap is so large that playing anything else is deemed "inefficient" and shoved to the wayside.

That being said I will play my Excalibur until Warframe's servers go down no matter how "inefficient" it gets.

This. All of this. 

This is the problem. You really cannot pretend that this huge gap is nothing.

2 hours ago, AkyFenrir said:

Nerfing nukers to the ground would have a Impact on the player base, you seem to believe it would be a positive one, I think it would be a bad one. Point is none of us got info about this. 

Ember used to be the previous Saryn,  not seen  a single ember in any game mode in the past year ! That's what nerfing a single nuker does, that's what nerfing saryn would do. 

They don't need to nerf her into the ground, and no one said they did. Nukes, especially Saryn are an outlier in terms of power. They need to be reasonably in line with other Warframes. 

Yes, some Warframes are allowed to be objectively better. But that difference shouldn't be this rediculous. 

If nerfing a single nuker won't help, being them all into line. As I said, we don't have to nerf them into the ground. We just have to make them more cooperative. 

Yes, it's awful what happened with Ember. I can sympathize with a playstyle being toned down (or in her case, stomped into the ground.) No one likes nerfs. 

Believe me. No one does. 

We shouldn't stomp Saryn into the ground. That's not going to help.

But that doesn't change the fact that she's wildly out of proportion. 

But she needs to be at a level closer to other Warframes, and the same can be said of a lot of other nukes.

This is a problem, despite what you might think. 

People aren't upset because they're not getting the most kills. People aren't upset because they don't like the game or the difficulty. People aren't upset because

They're upset because they're not allowed or able to do anything. Even if they're support, they're pretty much useless to Nukes except to up the spawn rates. They're upset because they don't have a chance to kill or do anything besides wait to extract. 

Sure, that's great if you don't want to actually play the game, but then why even play at all if you don't want to play?

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Posted (edited)

I mean...you have the option to queue for a sortie solo. But you didn't. You didn't want to, or couldn't, do the thing alone. Then you ask that your teammates tailor their playstyles to your need for a difficulty level/team comp/team synergy that is *perfectly suited* to your personal desires?

ROFL

People running sorties every single day as a routine do not need to tailor their nuke builds for the benefit of your ~fresh experience~.

When I want to feel challenged or want to play at my own pace, I queue solo.

Edited by sinnae
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30 minutes ago, Sea_Blue_Stars said:

They don't need to nerf her into the ground, and no one said they did. Nukes, especially Saryn are an outlier in terms of power. They need to be reasonably in line with other Warframes. 

Yes, some Warframes are allowed to be objectively better. But that difference shouldn't be this rediculous. 

If nerfing a single nuker won't help, being them all into line. As I said, we don't have to nerf them into the ground. We just have to make them more cooperative. 

Yes, it's awful what happened with Ember. I can sympathize with a playstyle being toned down (or in her case, stomped into the ground.) No one likes nerfs. 

Believe me. No one does. 

We shouldn't stomp Saryn into the ground. That's not going to help.

But that doesn't change the fact that she's wildly out of proportion. 

But she needs to be at a level closer to other Warframes, and the same can be said of a lot of other nukes.

This is a problem, despite what you might think. 

People aren't upset because they're not getting the most kills. People aren't upset because they don't like the game or the difficulty. People aren't upset because

They're upset because they're not allowed or able to do anything. Even if they're support, they're pretty much useless to Nukes except to up the spawn rates. They're upset because they don't have a chance to kill or do anything besides wait to extract. 

Sure, that's great if you don't want to actually play the game, but then why even play at all if you don't want to play?

Eh, because "we" want reward and not the actual gameplay for it.

I'm not sure if anyone who loving formaing things or grinding for same things 100 times, in warframe there is no meaningful difference between each run of those, so in the end we start to think like get the reward ASAP and let's gtfo.

What you are going to do is removal of most efficient and less squadmate reliant way to farm things, so, instead, how about restriction for using saryn in PuG, or nerfs that is only applicable for PuG saryn? 

Yeah it's stupid but i think this is the best way to dealing with those kind of things? currently it encourages people like you to do solo, with this change it encourages people don't want to play the game to do solo/premade.

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4 hours ago, Aldain said:

Saryn and Mesa (among others) don't even need support frames though, they don't even need anything but themselves.

Support frames aren't needed BECAUSE of the power balance issues, nevermind the endless energy economy that we have now, Harrow is outperformed by Operators and Energy Pizzas. Damage buff frames only stack more damage on top of already overkill damage and defensive frames are only needed in Defense missions when the point is reached that a stray bullet one-shots the defense target. Then there's Vauban, who has never been more useless because dead enemies are better than CC'd enemies.

There is slowly becoming no place for any frame that can't wipe a tileset every 5 seconds by itself, sure the frames can exist and be played, but why bother when the power gap is so large that playing anything else is deemed "inefficient" and shoved to the wayside.

That being said I will play my Excalibur until Warframe's servers go down no matter how "inefficient" it gets.


Have you been to 4x3 tridolons?

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Posted (edited)
21 minutes ago, uAir said:

Have you been to 4x3 tridolons?

Eidolons are literally one of the few situations where DPS frames are unable to snap the game in half, strictly because they are immune to all abilities.

One narrow example of where Mesa and Sayrn aren't gods doesn't magically make them any less powerful. Bosses of any type are immune to direct damage abilities because of how overpowering they are, if anything you just made the point more clear of how powerful the frames are because the game has to make rules that prevent them from using those abilities.

Think of it this way, status effects like Viral and Slash are able to melt high level enemies in seconds, that's why they had to make bosses immune to status effects, apply that same logic to Sayrn and Mesa and you have the exact same reason for the immunity, because those types of frames and status are so powerful that if the game DIDN'T stop them they would break those parts of the game as well.

When a developer has to start making rules to stop tools that the players have from effortlessly destroying content you know that something is too strong.

Edited by Aldain
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vor 4 Stunden schrieb DatDarkOne:

That said, should Saryn get nerfed, the players would just move on to the next frame and this whole process would just get repeated again and again until all frames are nerfed. 

And what's wrong about that?

The big gap between both support and cc and (some) DPS would get smaller again - at least a bit.

Considering the current situation, I can see only benefits in that.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Aldain said:

Eidolons are literally one of the few situations where DPS frames are unable to snap the game in half, strictly because they are immune to all abilities.

One narrow example of where Mesa and Sayrn aren't gods doesn't magically make them any less powerful. Bosses of any type are immune to direct damage abilities because of how overpowering they are, if anything you just made the point more clear of how powerful the frames are because the game has to make rules that prevent them from using those abilities.

Think of it this way, status effects like Viral and Slash are able to melt high level enemies in seconds, that's why they had to make bosses immune to status effects, apply that same logic to Sayrn and Mesa and you have the exact same reason for the immunity, because those types of frames and status are so powerful that if the game DIDN'T stop them they would break those parts of the game as well.

When a developer has to start making rules to stop tools that the players have from effortlessly destroying content you know that something is too strong.

Saryn and Mesa can ease their way through low level content. Just because a frame is able to beat low level content easily is no grounds to nerf them. Because a Mesa carried you through a defense mission on Jupiter doesn't mean she's op or that she needs to be nerfed. That's your very narrow perspective on the performance envelope of what Mesa can and cannot do.

The only place where Saryn shines, where she undoubtedly performs better than every other frame, is ESO. One instance of Saryn's greatness is not grounds to nerf her.

Think of it this way, any frame can do low level content. Who really cares about that other than low level players who don't have access to higher level content? Should we cater the game to them? Or should we cater the game to high level players who want to breeze through low level content when they need to farm some materials?

=========

We already know that it takes more than just "viral and slash" to melt high level targets. You can't go to level 250 enemies and just spam Saryn 4 and think you'll outperform the Wukong. One of the best viral/slash weapons is tigris prime and that's a subpar weapon at best to use at the endgame. So your entire argument there is void about viral and slash.  You're literally just making things up now from a very limited point of view.

The developer doesn't have any rules to stop players from effortlessly destroying content. But the rule of what can and cannot be played and in what way shouldn't be given to MR 8 players with under 150 hours of playtime under their belt who hasn't completed a single tridolon yet.

=========

Let me put it another way. Every real endgame player who does arbitration and who has gone on and maybe still goes on multiple hours of endless survivals knows that Wukong is a ridiculous monster now. They know that Mag is a real piece and can tie together almost any team composition. They know Octavia outperforms practically everything. They know Saryn is nigh useless and Mesa is very good until enemy level scales up to a certain point without a very concerted effort to support her from her allies.

But how many of these veteran players do you see on here crying about "Mag is too strong at endgame."
"Nyx is too op and is one of the easiest frames to solo lvl 500 enemies with. Please nerf Nyx."
"Melee scaling is too op at endgame, please nerf it so we can use our primaries and secondaries."
"Mesa is too weak at endgame, she needs buffs."
"Saryn is too useless at endgame, I want her 1 to 1shot enemies the way it does on Earth."

I haven't seen a single one of those topics made. Why? Because endgame players have better sense than that.
The only complaints I see are low level players who don't know enough about the game who haven't played enough of the game crying about Saryn or Mesa when really, they probably could've been carried by a Loki and you'd still be crying about how Loki is too strong and can be permanently invisible and kills all the enemies and disable all their weapons so the game is too easy since no enemies can shoot now blah blah."

Low level players who don't know enough are very vocal. I don't want DE to be making game changes based on that vocal minority. Especially when I can sit in recruit chat for an hour and probably see at least 5 requests for help from random players to be carried through some content and those players don't care if I'm using Saryn or Mesa or Loki or Mag or Nyx so long as they get carried. I've been in public tridolons where if I wasn't there they probably would've failed at teralyst. Not one of them sat there complaining that I was the one grabbing and charging the lures. On the forums, maybe many low level players come to complain about Saryn. But in the actual game, everyone is very thankful Saryn is carrying them through 8 levels of SO or ESO so they can relax and easily reap the rewards with that guarantee.

It's usually some new-ish player who thinks the game should be played and made in his image that is the one complaining. It's too few the really good players at the endgame who are making suggestions that should be made to balance out the game.
 

Edited by uAir
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5 hours ago, AkyFenrir said:

Would be funny (sad? hmm) to see people complain they've to have a trinity in every game because since there's no nuker to clear stuff they've to take all damage upfront. And without a trin they can't survive. Either asking for a nerf so that they're not mandatory anymore, or a dps frames buff ? Since at that point invulnerable warframes would be nerfed too anyway.

If you can't survive without a Trinity or Saryn, you're doing something wrong. Before the power balance got so wildly out of hand, people used frames like Nyx, Frost, and Oberon to control the ebb and flow of the crowd. Nerfing every nuker into the ground wouldn't result in a mandatory Trinity or healer for every group, it might make defense missions a little longer, but otherwise, nukers are not as essential as you're making them out to be.

I play support as well, and I greatly dislike playing with Saryns or Mesas; especially if I'm using Harrow, Nidus, or Capacitance Volt. Frames, who's abilities require you to damage or kill the targets in order to get the most out of them. Even if I'm using Rage Inaros or Oberon, I dislike playing with nukers since the enemies frequently die before they can shoot at me.

And looking at how Grendel's abilities will be based on stacks, similar to Nidus, I believe you can just add him to the list of frames nukers will be incredibly disruptive towards.

This entire situation has gotten so far out of DE control, that there doesn't seem to be much they can due to fix it, without facing a ton of backlash from either side. Their hands are tied very tightly on this issue, so I doubt it will be reigned in or corrected any time soon.

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7 hours ago, DatDarkOne said:

It was a knee-jerk reaction Nerf to all the whining that was being posted in the forums about Ember.  

In an interview from a while ago, DE said they only look into changing warframes based on the popularity of the opinion, which is a lie, but let's say that's the case.

Because of the vague wording of "popularity", we can assume a thread like this might be considered popular, and they'll deside to nerf Saryn, while most likely skimming through the thread almost ignoring people saying she doesn't need a nerf.

I wonder...

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1 hour ago, (PS4)The1stAzrael said:

I play support as well, and I greatly dislike playing with Saryns or Mesas; especially if I'm using Harrow, Nidus, or Capacitance Volt. Frames, who's abilities require you to damage or kill the targets in order to get the most out of them. Even if I'm using Rage Inaros or Oberon, I dislike playing with nukers since the enemies frequently die before they can shoot at me.

And looking at how Grendel's abilities will be based on stacks, similar to Nidus, I believe you can just add him to the list of frames nukers will be incredibly disruptive towards.

Honestly that's the problem with those frame's design, because not only nukers, every one of squadmate (frame doesn't really matter, anything that can kill lot, or anyone who has superior aim than you) can remove your precious "resource" by killing it.

They are solo frame and not really coop friendly i guess.

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Il y a 6 heures, Sea_Blue_Stars a dit :

This. All of this. 

This is the problem. You really cannot pretend that this huge gap is nothing.

They don't need to nerf her into the ground, and no one said they did. Nukes, especially Saryn are an outlier in terms of power. They need to be reasonably in line with other Warframes. 

  If nerfing a single nuker won't help, being them all into line. As I said, we don't have to nerf them into the ground. We just have to make them more cooperative. 

 

My problem with this idea is very simple. Nukers are made to be AOE dps, therefore they kill a lot of low level ennemies quickly. That's their point. You are complaining that Saryn kills too quickly so let me ask this. How do you nerf Saryn without it being into the ground ? If you're expecting people to be able to shoot at things it would mean one thing only => nukers can't nuke anymore. There's litteraly no way around it,

Let's say DE change spore so LOS is needed to extend spores, it would become nearly impossible to expand spores making it a nerf into the ground too?

If you make her ult LOS it another nuke would take it's place immediately, and we would get a "nerf new nuke" posts again until they all get nerf and somehow Saryn gets back to light (despite nerfs) and should be nerf again? because  nukers are bad and stuff.

Or you can affect the range, and get a second Ember.

See ? there's no way to nerf a nuker to make it "playable" for other players without destroying that warframe.

May I ask you what do you play? i'm pretty sure i can find many reasons why that warframe should be nerfed too you know ? it's not hard to complain.

Il y a 6 heures, sinnae a dit :

I mean...you have the option to queue for a sortie solo. But you didn't. You didn't want to, or couldn't, do the thing alone. Then you ask that your teammates tailor their playstyles to your need for a difficulty level/team comp/team synergy that is *perfectly suited* to your personal desires?

ROFL

People running sorties every single day as a routine do not need to tailor their nuke builds for the benefit of your ~fresh experience~.

When I want to feel challenged or want to play at my own pace, I queue solo.

Thank you :)

Il y a 5 heures, Test-995 a dit :

Eh, because "we" want reward and not the actual gameplay for it.

I'm not sure if anyone who loving formaing things or grinding for same things 100 times, in warframe there is no meaningful difference between each run of those, so in the end we start to think like get the reward ASAP and let's gtfo.

What you are going to do is removal of most efficient and less squadmate reliant way to farm things, so, instead, how about restriction for using saryn in PuG, or nerfs that is only applicable for PuG saryn? 

Yeah it's stupid but i think this is the best way to dealing with those kind of things? currently it encourages people like you to do solo, with this change it encourages people don't want to play the game to do solo/premade.

Exactly, i'm all for efficiency after 1,7K +hours... New players can't get that because they're not there yet.

Il y a 4 heures, Aldain a dit :

Eidolons are literally one of the few situations where DPS frames are unable to snap the game in half, strictly because they are immune to all abilities.

One narrow example of where Mesa and Sayrn aren't gods doesn't magically make them any less powerful. Bosses of any type are immune to direct damage abilities because of how overpowering they are, if anything you just made the point more clear of how powerful the frames are because the game has to make rules that prevent them from using those abilities.

Think of it this way, status effects like Viral and Slash are able to melt high level enemies in seconds, that's why they had to make bosses immune to status effects, apply that same logic to Sayrn and Mesa and you have the exact same reason for the immunity, because those types of frames and status are so powerful that if the game DIDN'T stop them they would break those parts of the game as well.

When a developer has to start making rules to stop tools that the players have from effortlessly destroying content you know that something is too strong.

So let see, hmmm Rescue, arbitration, capture, endless after the first 20 minutes/waves... Well looks like there's a lot of places where Dps frames can't cut trough content ? I'm so surprised right now!

That's why you're talking about 2 elements that aren't good versus high level right ? By the way Mesa can kill most bosses so yeah.

Rules are NOT a bad thing, they're a good thing... Rules change gameplay doing exactly what you're asking for ! And strong is relative, fast warframes are "strong" in rescue/capture, yet i don't see anyone being like "hey this guy got there so fast i couldn't hack to save the hostage" or "Hey i didn't even reached the target area he was on extraction"? Because they can shoot stuff irrelevant to the mission so it's just fine ?

Il y a 4 heures, Sahansral a dit :

And what's wrong about that?

The big gap between both support and cc and (some) DPS would get smaller again - at least a bit.

Considering the current situation, I can see only benefits in that.

 That's the point, if there's another nuke taking the lead it won't change a single thing. And the only way to deal with nukers is to destroy them and making jokes of them somehow.

Il y a 3 heures, uAir a dit :


Let me put it another way. Every real endgame player who does arbitration and who has gone on and maybe still goes on multiple hours of endless survivals knows that Wukong is a ridiculous monster now. They know that Mag is a real piece and can tie together almost any team composition. They know Octavia outperforms practically everything. They know Saryn is nigh useless and Mesa is very good until enemy level scales up to a certain point without a very concerted effort to support her from her allies.

But how many of these veteran players do you see on here crying about "Mag is too strong at endgame."
"Nyx is too op and is one of the easiest frames to solo lvl 500 enemies with. Please nerf Nyx."
"Melee scaling is too op at endgame, please nerf it so we can use our primaries and secondaries."
"Mesa is too weak at endgame, she needs buffs."
"Saryn is too useless at endgame, I want her 1 to 1shot enemies the way it does on Earth."

I haven't seen a single one of those topics made. Why? Because endgame players have better sense than that.
The only complaints I see are low level players who don't know enough about the game who haven't played enough of the game crying about Saryn or Mesa when really, they probably could've been carried by a Loki and you'd still be crying about how Loki is too strong and can be permanently invisible and kills all the enemies and disable all their weapons so the game is too easy since no enemies can shoot now blah blah."

Low level players who don't know enough are very vocal.


It's usually some new-ish player who thinks the game should be played and made in his image that is the one complaining. It's too few the really good players at the endgame who are making suggestions that should be made to balance out the game.
 

 I can do same things as nerf requesters now yeah :

THIS! JUST THIS IS THE PROBLEM! i'm kinda good at this too!

Il y a 2 heures, (PS4)The1stAzrael a dit :

 If you can't survive without a Trinity or Saryn, you're doing something wrong. Before the power balance got so wildly out of hand, people used frames like Nyx, Frost, and Oberon to control the ebb and flow of the crowd. Nerfing every nuker into the ground wouldn't result in a mandatory Trinity or healer for every group, it might make defense missions a little longer, but otherwise, nukers are not as essential as you're making them out to be.

I play support as well, and I greatly dislike playing with Saryns or Mesas; especially if I'm using Harrow, Nidus, or Capacitance Volt. Frames, who's abilities require you to damage or kill the targets in order to get the most out of them. Even if I'm using Rage Inaros or Oberon, I dislike playing with nukers since the enemies frequently die before they can shoot at me.

And looking at how Grendel's abilities will be based on stacks, similar to Nidus, I believe you can just add him to the list of frames nukers will be incredibly disruptive towards.

This entire situation has gotten so far out of DE control, that there doesn't seem to be much they can due to fix it, without facing a ton of backlash from either side. Their hands are tied very tightly on this issue, so I doubt it will be reigned in or corrected any time soon.

If you don't understand my message stating everything is so nerfed because they affect people pew pew gameplay that trinity would be the last one standing to be able to let the team deal with ennemies... What am I supposed to say ?  

About nukers being essential, at this point i can say, There's no skills essential to the game? Sure it would make things longer but hey ?

il y a 47 minutes, Test-995 a dit :

 Honestly that's the problem with those frame's design, because not only nukers, every one of squadmate (frame doesn't really matter, anything that can kill lot, or anyone who has superior aim than you) can remove your precious "resource" by killing it.

They are solo frame and not really coop friendly i guess.

That's exactly what those warframes are, DE made those so solo players could have fun. And now it's used as an argument against nukers :)

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1 hour ago, AkyFenrir said:

 I can do same things as nerf requesters now yeah :

THIS! JUST THIS IS THE PROBLEM! i'm kinda good at this too!

Making fun of the people arguing against you doesn't make your argument look any better. 

1 hour ago, AkyFenrir said:

My problem with this idea is very simple. Nukers are made to be AOE dps, therefore they kill a lot of low level ennemies quickly. That's their point. You are complaining that Saryn kills too quickly so let me ask this. How do you nerf Saryn without it being into the ground ? If you're expecting people to be able to shoot at things it would mean one thing only => nukers can't nuke anymore. There's litteraly no way around it,

Let's say DE change spore so LOS is needed to extend spores, it would become nearly impossible to expand spores making it a nerf into the ground too?

If you make her ult LOS it another nuke would take it's place immediately, and we would get a "nerf new nuke" posts again until they all get nerf and somehow Saryn gets back to light (despite nerfs) and should be nerf again? because  nukers are bad and stuff.

Make it kill a set number of enemies. Or a certain percentage. Thin the herd instead of wiping the map. 

There are a lot of ways that could keep her useful. But apparently, making her more fair for teammates to play with is a big no-no.

1 hour ago, AkyFenrir said:

If you don't understand my message stating everything is so nerfed because they affect people pew pew gameplay that trinity would be the last one standing to be able to let the team deal with ennemies... What am I supposed to say ?  

You're missing the entire point of what everyone else is saying, no matter how it is worded or how many times they say it. 

Saryn's ability to wipe the entire map is beyond rediculous. 

Nuking the entire map isn't fun for everyone else. 

This is a cooperative game and nukes are the least cooperative thing in this game. 

1 hour ago, AkyFenrir said:

Rules are NOT a bad thing, they're a good thing... Rules change gameplay doing exactly what you're asking for ! And strong is relative, fast warframes are "strong" in rescue/capture, yet i don't see anyone being like "hey this guy got there so fast i couldn't hack to save the hostage" or "Hey i didn't even reached the target area he was on extraction"? Because they can shoot stuff irrelevant to the mission so it's just fine ?

That's probably because bringing a Volt to a Rescue mission doesn't eliminate gameplay for everyone else. They still have to run, get through enemies, and still deal with the wonky hostage AI. The gameplay isn't eliminated for them. They still get to play.

That's the issue with Saryn and by extension other nukes. She takes the gameplay away from everyone else. 

That is a problem. Eliminating gameplay for others is wrong.

5 hours ago, uAir said:

It's usually some new-ish player who thinks the game should be played and made in his image that is the one complaining.

You know, think of it this way. Those players are going into missions not wanting to be carried. But they wind up carried and unable to do anything.

And it happens often enough that they get tired of it. 

That's why they get vocal about it. They're saying "Isn't it unfair that I can't do anything in the mission while Saryn stands in one spot and kills everything, while I'm frantically running around the map trying to kill things?" 

They're not asking for the game to be made in their image and I'm honestly wondering what kind of mental gymnastics its taking to get to that conclusion. 

They're asking for better balance between Warframes. 

1 hour ago, AkyFenrir said:

That's exactly what those warframes are, DE made those so solo players could have fun. And now it's used as an argument against nukers 🙂

Then keep them solo or for premade squads. I bet you there are tons in recruiting looking for a Saryn to take along with them. 

Playing her solo also works for the "power fantasy" side that people seem so focused on.

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il y a une heure, Sea_Blue_Stars a dit :

Making fun of the people arguing against you doesn't make your argument look any better. 

Well, i'm pointing out the fact they've no arguments, making it funny is still better to me than being insulting.

il y a une heure, Sea_Blue_Stars a dit :

Make it kill a set number of enemies. Or a certain percentage. Thin the herd instead of wiping the map. 

There are a lot of ways that could keep her useful. But apparently, making her more fair for teammates to play with is a big no-no.

 

Saryn is NOT the only nuker in the game, nerfing her will just switch people to another warframe and nerf requesters will go for that one. By your definition "Ember" is fair for teammates right now. Wouldn't say it's such a great thing too look for. She's not cleaning all the map and is super weak. I would never ever consider EMBER is the direction the game should go.

There's an obvious problem we'll never solve anyway. I like Nukers and you don't, there's no argument that would change that anyway.

 

il y a une heure, Sea_Blue_Stars a dit :

You're missing the entire point of what everyone else is saying, no matter how it is worded or how many times they say it. 

Saryn's ability to wipe the entire map is beyond rediculous. 

Nuking the entire map isn't fun for everyone else. 

This is a cooperative game and nukes are the least cooperative thing in this game. 

Your focus on saryn proves you don't get that she's not the only one... And if you don't know about other nukers to introduce them in this very debate about nuking abilities, i think you don't have the knowledge to discuss this, 

il y a une heure, Sea_Blue_Stars a dit :

That's probably because bringing a Volt to a Rescue mission doesn't eliminate gameplay for everyone else. They still have to run, get through enemies, and still deal with the wonky hostage AI. The gameplay isn't eliminated for them. They still get to play.

That's the issue with Saryn and by extension other nukes. She takes the gameplay away from everyone else. 

That is a problem. Eliminating gameplay for others is wrong.

Unless if you think "running" accross weak ennemies dealing you 0 damage is "gameplay" than you should request a nerf for them too. And the AI goes 95% Of the time to the fastest player.

This is eliminating gameplay too. I won't type again my argument you completely ignored anyway.

il y a une heure, Sea_Blue_Stars a dit :

You know, think of it this way. Those players are going into missions not wanting to be carried. But they wind up carried and unable to do anything.

And it happens often enough that they get tired of it. 

That's why they get vocal about it. They're saying "Isn't it unfair that I can't do anything in the mission while Saryn stands in one spot and kills everything, while I'm frantically running around the map trying to kill things?" 

They're not asking for the game to be made in their image and I'm honestly wondering what kind of mental gymnastics its taking to get to that conclusion. 

They're asking for better balance between Warframes. 

The op doesn't know the game, because he made this post the first time he saw a nuker, sadly was a saryn could have been any other one, it would have been about those.

You're going in a discussion "You deny my gameplay so your gameplay should be denied". That's never a good argument.

I'm sure you know about mental gymnastics :)

Funny thing ! You people never thing about raising ennemy resistance instead of killing frames. It's easier to do an emotionnal reaction to a warframe than thinking i guess.

il y a une heure, Sea_Blue_Stars a dit :

 

Then keep them solo or for premade squads. I bet you there are tons in recruiting looking for a Saryn to take along with them. 

Playing her solo also works for the "power fantasy" side that people seem so focused on.

You know, it's funny to see you keep quoting me and answering to people i've been quoting myself. The thing is you completely ignore what i was talking about. If you just react to a single person without reading the entire subject and what i'm talking about, you should reconsider answering you know ?

This quote was not about Saryn, it was about

 

using Harrow, Nidus, or Capacitance Volt. Frames, who's abilities require you to damage or kill the targets in order to get the most out of them. Even if I'm using Rage Inaros or Oberon, I dislike playing with nukers since the enemies frequently die before they can shoot at me.

 

So thank you for quoting me out of context to present my arguments the way you want, it's a terrible way to debate.

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11 hours ago, sinnae said:

I mean...you have the option to queue for a sortie solo. But you didn't. You didn't want to, or couldn't, do the thing alone. Then you ask that your teammates tailor their playstyles to your need for a difficulty level/team comp/team synergy that is *perfectly suited* to your personal desires?

ROFL

People running sorties every single day as a routine do not need to tailor their nuke builds for the benefit of your ~fresh experience~.

When I want to feel challenged or want to play at my own pace, I queue solo.

This is a co-operative shooter and the primary experience should be appealing to that. Being restricted from group play, or public matchmaking, and risking your ability to even have involvement in play just for having the desire to play with others should not even remotely be a norm or even a possible outcome at all. That's just an entirely unhealthy premise on its own, group play should be a broadly positive thing that enhances play, there shouldn't be instances where playing in a group prevents you from actually being able to play sheerly because of terrible game balance, that its become so standard as it has today is just all the worse.

But you are right on one thing, players shouldn't have to tailor themselves personally for a good co-operative experience, that should be on DE as the facilitators of the games balance and design to make it so players aren't so heavily impacting others experiences during co-op play, and its why people are requesting a nerf and not personal policing. 

Overall this matter isn't about challenge though, or having fine tuned pacing, it's about how a player should never be put in a position during gameplay where another person (a single person in a four person co-op shooter) can completely remove their (and the rest of their teams even) involvement in the game. It's saying people at least deserve some sort of bare minimum in terms of gamepaly at any period in a match, that the option to be just fully shut out by some over performer shouldn't exist. (and lets be honest, the level of killing nukes achieve is well beyond anything necessary for pushing objectives efficiently in all but like one game mode, in all other content they have no real reason to exist to the extent they do outside number fluffing vanity)

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I wouldn't want Saryn to get a not well thought out nerf and end up useless like Ember, but something should be done. It's truly broken if a player doesn't even see 70% of the enemies they kill. That's just how destructive Saryn is and I also feel this boredom at times when she's in the match.

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4 hours ago, Sea_Blue_Stars said:

You know, think of it this way. Those players are going into missions not wanting to be carried. But they wind up carried and unable to do anything.

And it happens often enough that they get tired of it.

If those players don't want to get carried then they can solo and carry themselves.
Because invariably, if they play in a public group they are asking for other teammates to do some of the work for them. If you want to do all of it yourself, play solo.

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Test-995 said:

Honestly that's the problem with those frame's design, because not only nukers, every one of squadmate (frame doesn't really matter, anything that can kill lot, or anyone who has superior aim than you) can remove your precious "resource" by killing it.

They are solo frame and not really coop friendly i guess.

While Nidus and Inaros are solo frames, Volt, Oberon and Harrow are not.

Harrow is a greedy support, he can be a kill-hog, but he doesn't strip the game and any of your team-mates of their ability to actively contribute, unlike nuke frames. You can stay within enough range to receive the benefits of his abilities, and still gain a reasonable amount of kills and resources.

Volt is something of a team nuke. Capacitance also grants shields to your team-mates; not to mention, electric damage tends to fall off around level 100(?), however, it's Tesla chain effect can still hold enemies in place long enough for you and your team to finish them off with other abilities or weapons.

Oberon is a jack-of-all-trades support. Playing Oberon is beneficial to both solo and co-op players; his kit is actually fairly well balanced and his survivability potential is immense. His Renewal allows you to heal your squad without having to micro-manage them, or consistently stay within their range, unless they somehow lose it. Phoenix Renewal becomes remarkably handy during long missions, where any stray grenade could take you out.

8 hours ago, AkyFenrir said:

If you don't understand my message stating everything is so nerfed because they affect people pew pew gameplay that trinity would be the last one standing to be able to let the team deal with ennemies... What am I supposed to say ?  

About nukers being essential, at this point i can say, There's no skills essential to the game? Sure it would make things longer but hey ?

That's exactly what those warframes are, DE made those so solo players could have fun. And now it's used as an argument against nukers 🙂

If everything was nerfed to that extent, then surely Trinity would no longer be as viable as she is now.

Do you permanently dis-trust DE's judgement, simply because of a nerf that took place, almost 2 years ago? I am no fan of DE, but I am willing to give them the benefit of doubt. Since that Ember debacle, they have taken some strides to produce better frames. Despite my own opinions of Wisp and Hyldrin I can see that they are fairly reliable frames, and many people find them enjoyable. The scenario you're describing would be the absolute death of this game, and it's extremely hyperbolic to say that DE would go as far as that in their attempts to please the crowd. And I think they know that.

I don't want nukers to be nerfed into the center of the earth. I want them re-balanced, so that other people can actually play the game, rather than being forced into solo mode, or given little to nothing to do.

But apparently, that means I want to nerf everything until nukers deal only -5 damage per target and healers have to kill themselves in order to gives buffs to their team-mates.

Edited by (PS4)The1stAzrael
typo
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17 hours ago, DatDarkOne said:

Here's the interesting thing about that.  Before Ember was nerfed, most of us who knew better had said in all the Nerf Ember topics that players would just move to Saryn if/when Ember got nerfed.  

Post Nerf:  Look what happened just as we said it would.  

That said, should Saryn get nerfed, the players would just move on to the next frame and this whole process would just get repeated again and again until all frames are nerfed.  Why, because there will always be some players that will be salty of another frame for whatever reason.  

 

All frames nerfed/balanced across the board... is... the... ideal scenery tho...

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It's probably close to impossible to balance the power fantasy of each individual player being the protagonist, the special tenno, the singular hero of their own world, with fair and equitable teamplay, in game modes where the objective is killing or completing an objective as quickly as possible.

The solution probably doesn't lie with nerfing any of the dps/nuke frames but rather creating team-based activities where there are mechanics *other* than rapid extermination. Eidolons do this pretty well in that I can play a support or buffer frame and not topfrag in terms of damage numbers but still feel useful and involved. There are true cooperative mechanics in a tridolon bounty (imo). Of course if you queue tridolons solo you'll occasionally run into Chromas and Volts that are so hyper-minmaxed that they basically delete all three bosses in one shot, but those instances are far rarer. Most of the time I come away from a tridolon feeling like I had an active role and was an active participant and adequately challenged.

To me, tridolons are some of the best-balanced and most engaging team experiences in Warframe, and the closest I can get to that Destiny raid/dungeon feeling. Profit-taker fails miserably at this because of the damage-gating design etc. imo.

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