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MrRixter

Can something be done about Saryn?

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5 hours ago, AkyFenrir said:

So thank you for quoting me out of context to present my arguments the way you want, it's a terrible way to debate.

No one has been quoting you out of context, dude. Taking specific points to focus on them one at a time isn't trying to twist it, that's how debating works. I'm quoting you directly, and responding accordingly. If you want to see that as being out of context, that's your problem. 

5 hours ago, AkyFenrir said:

Well, i'm pointing out the fact they've no arguments, making it funny is still better to me than being insulting.

They do have an argument, you're just choosing to ignore it. Which, again, is on you.

Even if you think they don't making fun of them just makes your argument look worse, and quite frankly, empty. It makes it look like you have nothing left to refute points besides being childish and insulting. 

I don't mean any of this to sound rude, it's meant to be taken as friendly advice. 

5 hours ago, AkyFenrir said:

Saryn is NOT the only nuker in the game, nerfing her will just switch people to another warframe and nerf requesters will go for that one. By your definition "Ember" is fair for teammates right now. Wouldn't say it's such a great thing too look for. She's not cleaning all the map and is super weak. I would never ever consider EMBER is the direction the game should go.

There's an obvious problem we'll never solve anyway. I like Nukers and you don't, there's no argument that would change that anyway.

The thread is focused on Saryn, so that's going to be the focus. It's literally called "Can something be done about Saryn?"

And you're right, I don't like nukes. I choose not to play them, and I avoid them whenever I can. I have played nukes and found it incredibly boring and mindless gameplay. Some of my favorite Warframes to play with are support or have a fun gimmick. 

It's fine to like nukes, but you have to acknowledge how they don't even have to see or interact with or even know about the existence of their enemies to kill them. Even some other more powerful frames with a lot of killing power have to have line of sight for their abilities to kill. They're not cooperative, they're not great for working with the team. That much, at least to me, is undeniable.

There needs to at least be some reconsideration on nuke frames overall. 

No one is asking for them to be nerfed into the ground, and you keep missing that. You keep talking about them ending up like Ember, when I really don't think they're going to do something like that again. No one is asking for Ember to happen to another Frame. They just want Saryn, and by extension, other nukes, to be slowed down enough for other people to be able to keep up. 

No one is asking for another Ember-like nerf. I have said this before. 

Believe it or not, I don't think another Ember nerf to nukes would be a good thing. I think they need another look, and as unpopular an opinion as it may or may not be, I'm willing to trust DE if and/or when they do. Ember was a long time ago. They've surely learned more about it since. I'm willing to trust them to rework nuking. 

To restate, I agree that an Ember-level nerf isn't a good solution, but that does not mean that there shouldn't be something done. 

5 hours ago, AkyFenrir said:

You're going in a discussion "You deny my gameplay so your gameplay should be denied". That's never a good argument.

I'm sure you know about mental gymnastics 🙂

Funny thing ! You people never thing about raising ennemy resistance instead of killing frames. It's easier to do an emotionnal reaction to a warframe than thinking i guess.

(This one got a little weird because I had to copy an extra line from the original post after accidentally deleting said line, so apologies for that)

I'm saying no one should be denied actual gameplay, and in a lot of cases, nukes are the ones denying people's gameplay.

I really don't want to get into whose acting out emotionally. Debates tend to get emotional, and I get why. Everyone gets attached to the Warframes they like. I know I'm attached to my favorite Warframes.

Look, I don't care if you think I'm using mental gymnastics. I don't want to get into some petty insult war over this. That said, the fact that you come across as trying to be insulting and upsetting doesn't help your argument. Instead of trying to insult people, try to be persuasive. Counter points. Be to-the point and factual. That's what debating is for, isn't it? Trying to make a point that might change the mind of the other person somewhat? 

Being insulting, weather subtly or more straightforward, doesn't do anything for your argument. 

Again, this is meant as friendly advice. Take it as you will, but my intentions are to help. 

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21 minutes ago, Sea_Blue_Stars said:

The thread is focused on Saryn, so that's going to be the focus.

Then the thread isn't focused on the actual problem and should be closed for being a non-issue.

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11 minutes ago, Cibyllae said:

Then the thread isn't focused on the actual problem and should be closed for being a non-issue.

Looking at all the varying arguments in this thread, all of which are centered on Saryn, I'd say it's a definite issue. 

How severe it actually is, depends on who you're asking.

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The issue is that a lot of the gameplay available caters to nuke frames. Nerfing Saryn isn't a solution to the nuke problem, because people will just bring the next best thing. I'd just bring my Mesa and still kill everything before you'd get a chance to even look at the red dots on the map. The only real content where Saryn shines is ESO, but that because if how her synergies work with the unique enemy spawn mechanic. For everything else, we could be having this same argument about a dozen other frames as well.

 

 I also don't really see how a nerf gets rid of the problem, unless you completely change her playstyle or kit. I mean, a less powerful Saryn is still going to revolve around spreading spores and getting them to nuke as many enemies as possible. The only issue is that with a less powerful Saryn, you'd essentially have a useless frame.

 

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1 hour ago, Sea_Blue_Stars said:

No one is asking for another Ember-like nerf. I have said this before. 

Nobody asked for Ember to get nerfed the way she was either, but we still got the equvalent of CBT in the form of a nerf.

It always starts like this. "Can something be done about X?", "Why is X so damn strong?", etc.

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5 minutes ago, Blexander said:

Nobody asked for Ember to get nerfed the way she was either, but we still got the equvalent of CBT in the form of a nerf.

It always starts like this. "Can something be done about X?", "Why is X so damn strong?", etc.

EXACTLY!!!

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1 hour ago, (PS4)The1stAzrael said:

Looking at all the varying arguments in this thread, all of which are centered on Saryn, I'd say it's a definite issue. 

Arguments can be centered around something that is a non-issue?

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Next up on the nerf train if sayrn gets beat with the nerf bat is equinox, I can garuntee it. And Sayrn doesnt need a nerf to begin with either way so it accomplishes nothing. She has the best ability synergy in the game and requires knolege of how she functions to work late game so no change is needed...

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1 hour ago, MichaelKnightro said:

The issue is that a lot of the gameplay available caters to nuke frames. Nerfing Saryn isn't a solution to the nuke problem, because people will just bring the next best thing. I'd just bring my Mesa and still kill everything before you'd get a chance to even look at the red dots on the map. The only real content where Saryn shines is ESO, but that because if how her synergies work with the unique enemy spawn mechanic. For everything else, we could be having this same argument about a dozen other frames as well.

 

 I also don't really see how a nerf gets rid of the problem, unless you completely change her playstyle or kit. I mean, a less powerful Saryn is still going to revolve around spreading spores and getting them to nuke as many enemies as possible. The only issue is that with a less powerful Saryn, you'd essentially have a useless frame.

 

Yep the only place I use her is in ESO myself because Equinox and any other DPS is better for most mission types. She excels in places where thileir is a constant flow of high level enemies to feed her spores and thats just how she is. If your using her instead of Equinox or even EMBER for a low level exterminate your doing it wrong because she is to energy ineficient if you min max her for total nukage...

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DE can't do much about her without pissing the "I don't like playing a game" crowd off, and I sure hope these people get hardcore tilted by the end of the year. I'm a bit lazy to expand on it now, but the current Saryn and the nuke mentality is a consequence of the game design more than people themselves loving the nuke playstyle. ESO is a place that forces you to spam Saryn to the point where the game won't actually give you enough enemies to kill and you'll fail. Blame not the drugs, maybe those who sell them, but absolutely blame the ones who buy it; there's no selling when there's no buying.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Cibyllae said:

Arguments can be centered around something that is a non-issue?

Again, how severely you consider the problem of nuke frames depends on how the issue affects you. For you, Saryn may be a non-issue, but for myself and others it is.

It's like, I'm never starving or going hungry, because I don't live in a poor environment. Just because hunger and starvation isn't a major problem for me, doesn't mean it's not a problem for someone else. 

Edited by (PS4)The1stAzrael
typo
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35 minutes ago, (PS4)The1stAzrael said:

Again, how severely you consider the problem of nuke frames depends on how the issue affects you. For you, Saryn may be a non-issue, but for myself and others it is. 

It's like, I'm never starving or going hungry, because I don't live in a poor environment. Just because hunger and starvation isn't a major problem for me, doesn't mean it's not a problem for someone else. 

Its a non-issue because if you nerf saryn, volt or equinox is just going to fill that vacuum. Acting like nerfing Saryn solves the 'nuker frame" issue is shortsighted.

 

Are you one of those people that thinks they can solve world hunger by giving money to homeless people?

 

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5 hours ago, (PS4)The1stAzrael said:

While Nidus and Inaros are solo frames, Volt, Oberon and Harrow are not.

Harrow is a greedy support, he can be a kill-hog, but he doesn't strip the game and any of your team-mates of their ability to actively contribute, unlike nuke frames. You can stay within enough range to receive the benefits of his abilities, and still gain a reasonable amount of kills and resources.

Volt is something of a team nuke. Capacitance also grants shields to your team-mates; not to mention, electric damage tends to fall off around level 100(?), however, it's Tesla chain effect can still hold enemies in place long enough for you and your team to finish them off with other abilities or weapons.

Oberon is a jack-of-all-trades support. Playing Oberon is beneficial to both solo and co-op players; his kit is actually fairly well balanced and his survivability potential is immense. His Renewal allows you to heal your squad without having to micro-manage them, or consistently stay within their range, unless they somehow lose it. Phoenix Renewal becomes remarkably handy during long missions, where any stray grenade could take you out.

You are thinking it differently, i said they are solo frames because they have maximum performance in solo, not because they can do whatever solo and don't need help of squadmate.

With that in mind, latter 2 isn't actually a solo frame, since both of them can works well with saryn and doesn't have any problem for "no enemies".

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10 minutes ago, Cibyllae said:

Its a non-issue because if you nerf saryn, volt or equinox is just going to fill that vacuum. Acting like nerfing Saryn solves the 'nuker frame" issue is shortsighted.

 

Are you one of those people that thinks they can solve world hunger by giving money to homeless people?

 

Except, unlike Equinox and Volt, Saryn and Mesa have nothing else to offer other than damage.

With Equinox, you have 5 different ways to play her. You could play sleep, damage, buff, healer or duality. She's not locked into one specific role, like Saryn or Mesa.

Same goes for Volt, who has at least 3 different build styles. Eidolon hunter, speed melee, and Capacitance. Even if their nuke abilities were removed or heavily nerfed, you'd still have 2 very decent frames.

If that happened to Mesa or Saryn, they would have nothing. No matter how you look at it, that isn't a well designed character.

And no, I am very wary of homeless people. Given the abundance of resources the population has access to, here in America, it'll take a lot to die of starvation.

 

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10 minutes ago, Test-995 said:

You are thinking it differently, i said they are solo frames because they have maximum performance in solo, not because they can do whatever solo and don't need help of squadmate.

With that in mind, latter 2 isn't actually a solo frame, since both of them can works well with saryn and doesn't have any problem for "no enemies".

Every frame has maximum performance in solo. Even a solo Vabaun could keep the defense objective safe.

As I had mentioned pages ago, Volt can't really build up the same amount of shields using Discharge, if almost everything is dead. That is a problem that nuke frames typically encounter. They have to compete with one another for kills, in a way that a majority of the frames don't.

When I play Oberon, I have to keep my energy up so I can have Renewal running for as long as possible, so naturally, I'll be using Rage or Hunters Adrenaline. I need enemies to target me, but they can't do that if they're dead. Even if I split off from the main group, at least one person will end up following me, and eventually, I'll be back in range of the nuke frame.

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24 minutes ago, (PS4)The1stAzrael said:

With Equinox, you have 5 different ways to play her. You could play sleep, damage, buff, healer or duality. She's not locked into one specific role, like Saryn or Mesa.

Same goes for Volt, who has at least 3 different build styles. Eidolon hunter, speed melee, and Capacitance. Even if their nuke abilities were removed or heavily nerfed, you'd still have 2 very decent frames.

If that happened to Mesa or Saryn, they would have nothing. No matter how you look at it, that isn't a well designed character. 

First, if we're going to play this game of build styles, you can build Saryn as melee, debuffer, speed, tank, cc, and support. So your statement that because Saryn is unlike volt and equinox in that Saryn has only one build path, and that this is what makes her poorly designed frame, is just not true. Because Saryn can be built many different ways.

Second just because a frame can be played multiple ways doesn't mean the community is not going to abuse and exploit the frame. Just because Volt can be played many different ways isn't going to stop people from abusing him as a dps frame. Again, just because equinox can be played many different ways isn't going to stop people from abusing her as a dps frame.

So again, trying to nerf Saryn isn't going to get rid of the "problem that is nuker frames" because there are plenty of other frames to take her place. Which then call forth another wave of new players that have no conception of the history of this game and ask for things which are mistakes we have already committed ala ember. And if you think that this time will be any different, you probably think real communism hasn't been tried yet too. We have nerfed aoe frames in the past yet here we are in the current year asking for the same exact thing that never fixes the problem.

Like i said in my first post, this thread should just be closed, because this griping about Saryn is a non-issue. Nerfing Saryn isn't going to do anything about the actual problem. So why keep talking about nerfing Saryn if it isn't going to fix the problem you are trying to solve?

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Posted (edited)
47 minutes ago, (PS4)The1stAzrael said:

Every frame has maximum performance in solo. Even a solo Vabaun could keep the defense objective safe.

As I had mentioned pages ago, Volt can't really build up the same amount of shields using Discharge, if almost everything is dead. That is a problem that nuke frames typically encounter. They have to compete with one another for kills, in a way that a majority of the frames don't.

When I play Oberon, I have to keep my energy up so I can have Renewal running for as long as possible, so naturally, I'll be using Rage or Hunters Adrenaline. I need enemies to target me, but they can't do that if they're dead. Even if I split off from the main group, at least one person will end up following me, and eventually, I'll be back in range of the nuke frame.

No, 4 vauban is better than solo vauban, you can make it even more safer.

And well, volt capacitance is a problem of that augment/ability, because if you NEED enemies to work, that is against the game mode that you (or everyone but you, staticor/atterax user won't wait for you just because your abilities doesn't work) have to kill enemies ASAP and keep place clean as possible.

And honestly, idk if you are actually having problem with oberon, my friend with oberon never had a problem like that in both arbitration or ESO when i was using saryn.

If you are on hydron, perhaps they just don't have enough firepower for sustaining your energy, how about go for little more efficient build then?

 

Edited by Test-995

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Cibyllae said:

First, if we're going to play this game of build styles, you can build Saryn as melee, debuffer, speed, tank, cc, and support. So your statement that because Saryn is unlike volt and equinox in that Saryn has only one build path, and that this is what makes her poorly designed frame, is just not true. Because Saryn can be built many different ways.

Second just because a frame can be played multiple ways doesn't mean the community is not going to abuse and exploit the frame. Just because Volt can be played many different ways isn't going to stop people from abusing him as a dps frame. Again, just because equinox can be played many different ways isn't going to stop people from abusing her as a dps frame.

So again, trying to nerf Saryn isn't going to get rid of the "problem that is nuker frames" because there are plenty of other frames to take her place. Which then call forth another wave of new players that have no conception of the history of this game and ask for things which are mistakes we have already committed ala ember. And if you think that this time will be any different, you probably think real communism hasn't been tried yet too. We have nerfed aoe frames in the past yet here we are in the current year asking for the same exact thing that never fixes the problem.

Like i said in my first post, this thread should just be closed, because this griping about Saryn is a non-issue. Nerfing Saryn isn't going to do anything about the actual problem. So why keep talking about nerfing Saryn if it isn't going to fix the problem you are trying to solve?

But she doesn't excel at those rolls, or even become co-op friendly regardless of the role you try placing her in because her kit so heavily focused on damage.

Her spores tick damage far too quickly for her to debuff or CC the enemies, so she can't do that. 

People label her as tanky, but if I'm playing with a Saryn in a mission above level 25, chances are, they'll go down at least once. And that's being optimistic.

Saryn's kit basically forces her back into the nuke role, since that is what her survivability depends on.

My point was, if DE goes through and nerfs all the nuke frames, Saryn will end up like Ember because she has nothing but damage, whereas Volt and Equinox will still be in a decent position. When Banshee was hit with the sound quake nerf, she didn't turn out like another Ember because her kit still offered some very solid abilities. 

Reworking a handful of frames is a much more palatable option compared reworking the entire damage system. 

Funnily enough, the history of this game was built on CC frames, not nukers. However, once the meta shifted (around 2017, I believe) CC frames quickly became obsolete, in favor of damage dealers. Over the years, a general lack of care from the devs has done nothing but solidify CC's position as dead.

These complaints about Saryn aren't a non issue, saying they are makes you appear dismissive and flippant. This topic has been breached multiple times since Saryn was reworked, and they always garner a hefty amount of attention, so obviously this problem is very real.

You also shouldn't assume someone's political opoinions

Edited by (PS4)The1stAzrael
typo
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56 minutes ago, Test-995 said:

No, 4 vauban is better than solo vauban, you can make it even more safer.

And well, volt capacitance is a problem of that augment/ability, because if you NEED enemies to work, that is against the game mode that you (or everyone but you, staticor/atterax user won't wait for you just because your abilities doesn't work) have to kill enemies ASAP and keep place clean as possible.

And honestly, idk if you are actually having problem with oberon, my friend with oberon never had a problem like that in both arbitration or ESO when i was using saryn.

If you are on hydron, perhaps they just don't have enough firepower for sustaining your energy, how about go for little more efficient build then?

 

One Vabaun can still do a more than competent job of protecting the defense pod in solo.

Capacitance doesn't necessarily need to kill them, it just needs to damage the enemies, but it can't do that if the enemies are dead. Atterax and Staticor users don't present the same level of nuking that a Saryn does.

Your original statement could actually be applied to Saryn, who relies on a steady stream of enemies in order to stack up a considerable amount damage. Saryn does so horribly in lower level missions because she keeps the map too clean.

Of course Oberon isn't going to run into issues in ESO and Arbitrations. ESO spawns in enemies faster than normal modes, and Arbitration enemies start on level 60-70, so of course they'll deal more damage than a level 25-30 enemy.

These issues are prevalent in every gamemode, except maybe POE or OV.

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Why not buff everything else then? Maybe the "overpowered" stuff should be they way things should be measured. 

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16 minutes ago, BLI7Z said:

Why not buff everything else then? Maybe the "overpowered" stuff should be they way things should be measured. 

An interesting take, but I would be wary of that one, as well.

A lot of Frames seem like they are in good spots and don't need much or any work. Some do need a buff.

But nukes are an on a completely different level from either. Their killing power eliminates the gameplay itself, and they don't even really have to do much to do so. 

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52 minutes ago, (PS4)The1stAzrael said:

But she doesn't excel at those rolls, or even become co-op friendly regardless of the role you try placing her in because her kit so heavily focused on damage.

Her spores tick damage far too quickly for her to debuff or CC the enemies, so she can't do that. 

People label her as tanky, but if I'm playing with a Saryn in a mission above level 25, chances are, they'll go down at least once. And that's being optimistic.

Saryn's kit basically forces her back into the nuke role, since that is what her survivability depends on. 

Bud I already told you it, it wouldn't matter even if she had your divine blessing and passed all of your purity tests. Just because a frame has multiple roles does not mean their damage spec won't be abused.

58 minutes ago, (PS4)The1stAzrael said:

My point was, if DE goes through and nerfs all the nuke frames, Saryn will end up like Ember because she has nothing but damage, whereas Volt and Equinox will still be in a decent position. When Banshee was hit with the sound quake nerf, she didn't turn out like another Ember because her kit still offered some very solid abilities.  

Ahhh, but that's the catch isn't it? You want all potential for nuke frames to disappear. You just don't like nuke frames and think the game would be better off without them. Why? Because you think nuke frames trivialize game play. Well guess what bud, guess what happens when you take out nuke frames as a whole? You slow down farming, you reduce the rate and which people can acquire rewards. And people are going to leave because of that. THEN, in order to farm people are going to whip out their Nyxs, their Lokis, their FA embers and 175% Eff Max Range Rhinos, and you're gonna have the same problem you had when the nuke warframes were around. You're going to have the same game, with less enjoyable frames, less players, and the same problem.Non-interactive game play.You're going to have the same problem. Stop thinking nerfing things is going to make the problem go away, you're only going to ruin the game for more people.

1 hour ago, (PS4)The1stAzrael said:

Reworking a handful of frames is a much more palatable option compared reworking the entire damage system.

Just because you can doesn't mean you should. Nerfing Reworking a handful of frames is not going to solve the issue you have. And the issue you have is Non-interactive gameplay.

1 hour ago, (PS4)The1stAzrael said:

These complaints about Saryn aren't a non issue, saying they are makes you appear dismissive and flippant. This topic has been breached multiple times since Saryn was reworked, and they always garner a hefty amount of attention, so obviously this problem is very real.

They are a non-issue, because people aren't complaining about Saryn, haven't you been listening? They are complaining about having nothing to shoot. Which is a valid complaint, and nerfing Saryn, or any other nuker for that matter isn't going to fix that problem. Because there is no difference between an enemy that isn't there, and an enemy that is cc'd so that they are not a threat, almost as if they might as well be dead. It's why Vauban's Bastille has a limit on the amount of enemies he can trap. Why? Because people complained about it. Now look where cc frames are, because people complained about them. I am being dismissive because complaining about Saryn isn't going to do anything. And the people who actually think that nerfing her, or nukers in general, is going to solve anything, don't understand the complete issue. And if you are saying things which show you don't understand the problem completely, I'm going to be dismissive of what you have to say. Its not a negative thing to be dismissive, being dismissive is actually a really positive tool that humans need otherwise they get overwhelmed with too much information, And you making me out to be some kind of villain because I make use of a tool you don't seem to hold in high regard only adds to the irony.

 

If you really think you've done the due diligence and think that getting rid of nukers is going to lead the game in the right direction fine, I'll support you all the way to the ballet. Just remember when the game dies because the Devs listened to your opinion it'll be on you.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, (PS4)The1stAzrael said:

One Vabaun can still do a more than competent job of protecting the defense pod in solo.

Capacitance doesn't necessarily need to kill them, it just needs to damage the enemies, but it can't do that if the enemies are dead. Atterax and Staticor users don't present the same level of nuking that a Saryn does.

Your original statement could actually be applied to Saryn, who relies on a steady stream of enemies in order to stack up a considerable amount damage. Saryn does so horribly in lower level missions because she keeps the map too clean.

Of course Oberon isn't going to run into issues in ESO and Arbitrations. ESO spawns in enemies faster than normal modes, and Arbitration enemies start on level 60-70, so of course they'll deal more damage than a level 25-30 enemy.

These issues are prevalent in every gamemode, except maybe POE or OV.

Hmm, i'm not sure what my "original statement" was, i think i tried to say saryn is not a root of problems and frames that have to kill enemies have a problem, i know saryn doesn't works that good in low level, somehow that enforces my opinion even stronger.

Did we talking about frame power, x frame is bad or good and those kind of things?

So you start to talk about level 25-30 enemies, when nothing is balanced around there, every frames can be stupidly tanky, every weapons could oneshot enemies at those levels, and of course every AoE can kill all the enemies in their range.

And, when you have a problem keeping up your energy with rage, maybe you don't need it at all.

Edited by Test-995

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