Can something be done about Saryn?

[(PSN)NewcastleDisease]

vor 9 Minuten schrieb zhellon:

I didn't say ember was good, I said nothing had changed. When Ember was good at high-level content, this high level was 40-50, and sorties were still new. And Ember was never good against armor. I'm sure there are people who are really passionate about Ember and can build it against level sorties against enemies without armor. But it is not required because there is Saryn.

ember was really good against all lvl enemies - because the flames burn them, stun them, you had time to kill the enemies in melee or with your weapons. exactly what you can still do with saryn. thats why many switch to saryn - because the frame isn't broken like ember is. you can play with saryn on high level - while ember will lay on the floor on anything over 30.

now you want to cut that. and then? 

which frame we are allowed to use in high level games? ember and banshee already killed, many frames are not able to survive on higher levels. saryn, equinox, volt, oberon and so many other are on your list to kill them.

so in the end anyone will use a rhino or what?

[AkyFenrir]

il y a 11 minutes, zhellon a dit :

I didn't say ember was good, I said nothing had changed. When Ember was good at high-level content, this high level was 40-50, and sorties were still new. And Ember was never good against armor. I'm sure there are people who are really passionate about Ember and can build it against level sorties against enemies without armor. But it is not required because there is Saryn.

You're going on the wrong side.

Suggesting Ember was bad is wrong, if you didn't play at the time (she had 5 nerfs to get where she's now thanks to people like you by the way) . Suggesting a broken warframe isn't required because we got her replacement isn't an argument. It's just trolling people who liked Ember like me at this point. If you think Saryn is good against Flesh, you clearly proved multiple times now you don't know how damage work in the game.

Funny to see you pretend Saryn is the only viable option to play High level. Why do you talk about high level if you never done it ? You love to talk about a lot of stuff you don't know ! (and you think you're right ;)

 

Removing every aoe of the game would make it a totally different boring game (there are a ton of those out there by the way. (There's one really cool starting with a A if you want xD)

 

 

[Xepthrichros]

1 hour ago, zhellon said:

But I'm sorry, 50 meters. Don't you think that's a bit much?

That's pathetically small in open world maps.

But I forgot the game we are talking about here is called "Hydron". Not "Warframe". No modes except defense on one small tile exist, and everything should be balanced around one mode only

Edited August 21, 2019 by Xepthrichros

[TeaHawk]

1 hour ago, zhellon said:

First, give us a sufficient opinion to consider.

It already was given by many. Instead of trying to refute arguments you ignored them. Once it does not fit, you just pretend you did not see it. It is not discussion, it's not debate.

1 hour ago, zhellon said:

 Now only the view is considered that players should be able to skip game modes

This is a blatant lie. You are lying. Nobody said that. The way you're trying to deviate arguments is nothing but bullhsitting.
 

1 hour ago, zhellon said:

Now people offer Ember as an example. And you know that Ember with rework only changed the build and nothing else? You're still burning low levels within a 20 meter radius.

I am sorry, but you don't seem to understand what exactly are you taking about.

The worst thing about you, is that you don't understand why this game is loved. Why we keep returing where. You seem to come from life-service game like Overwatch with the idea of balance viable for competitive shooter. This is not what this game is about.

Your hellbent ignorance makes this conversation pointless. It's really sad to see how narrow-minded players have grown lately.
 

Edited August 21, 2019 by TeaHawk

[Arcira]

4 hours ago, AkyFenrir said:

1. Never seen a saryn playing spore in defense, at this point any nuker is the same. Suggesting there's a problem with ESO, the only place spore is really played, is kinda... unexpected.

2. Most of the times, dev would think of a concept but not in every way. Player will scan everything and develop a meta to do it as fast as possible. There's not much that can be done at this point, even if you nerf nukers some players like op won't be able to kill stuff, nukers aren't the only anti play mechanics in the game.

3. You've missed so many nukers here, sad you know only 2 🙂 And of course there are better options for missions types. Funny nobody request nerf about "spy" warframes. Oh right, most of people are waiting for the one who knows to do it and don't complain about it. Funny right ?

4. Let's See: Capture/Sabotage/rescue/defense/mobile defense/survival/exterminate/spy/assassination/ESO/Arbitration/defefection/disruption. Nukers are a problem for what 2 out of 12 modes? ok. 

5. If everything is the same, everything is boring. It's an obvious fact... There's no way a Loki can be as viable as a Saryn anyway ? and nukers are relatively equivalent. Don't get your point here ?

1.) Arguing about wether or not Saryn´s kit is overpowered is kinda redundant don´t you think? The topic should be is this a problem or not and because of the way warframe is structured I think there isn´t really a viable alternative.

2.) Maybe maybe not. However I´d assume the major rework for Volt and Saryn around the same time ESO was introduced are supposed to encourage player to use them. Also the Ember changes were around this time as well suggesting the actual reason for the nerfs is they want to make sure she isn´t good in star chart clear and eso at the same time (deversity). But that´s just speculation on my side.

3.) Since this topic is mainly about Saryn I´m trying to limit myself. Otherwise this would escalate into dissertation rather than a statement.

4.) I´ll try to clarify a bit more. This is specifically not about mission types but about playstyles e.g. defend xy, kill as fast as possible, survive/endurance. While there are a lot of missions most of them require the same setup. As strange as it sounds adding new ways to play warfame is probably the easiest way to solve the problem.

5.) Equal doesn´t mean identical. Probably one of the most challanging things in video games and and most developer prefer the much more easy way one tool for one task. There isn´t really a point in discussing this in games like warframe. Especially with things like static kits this is impossible without severely limiting the latidue of design.

Edited August 21, 2019 by Arcira

[selig_fay]

9 минут назад, AkyFenrir сказал:

Going on this "skip" thingie is ridiculous, they're playing the game. And as I stated earlier, it's funny people keep complaining about nukers in defense and NEVER complain about the Spy meta (Oh right, being afk there is fine i guess ?). Yes warframe must provide unique mechanics. What's the point of a warframe ultimate if you can do the same thing with a weapon ? You won't all aoe weapon gone too? You want melee gone ? Problem are not nukers.

What's the point of a weapon if we have a warframe that kills everything within a 50-70 meter radius? We need to find a balance. Keep in mind that weapons cannot do damage through walls (at least most samples). Just the ability to act independently of you, that is, you have the opportunity to inflict additional damage or go to another part of the map, leaving the enemies to die. The problem is that people don't think about it. Either nuck the whole map or nothing.

17 минут назад, AkyFenrir сказал:

ESO can be done without nukers, you would need to be skilled for that, thing what you're going to do.

I take such accusations very calmly. Take Loki, put the "solo" mode and show a really good game.

15 минут назад, (PS4)NewcastleDisease сказал:

which frame we are allowed to use in high level games?

You can play anything after level 200. It is now considered a high level and Saryn damage there doesn't matter, you only cut the armor and kill with operator mines. We are talking about normal content. The normal content is in the range of 1-100 levels. Ember has a problem with it, but it was before. Remember when exactly there was a sortie and when it was nerfed Ember. Banshee same always crave the only for one button,.

21 минуту назад, (PS4)NewcastleDisease сказал:

ember and banshee already killed, many frames are not able to survive on higher levels. already killed, many frames are not able to survive on higher levels. saryn, equinox, volt, oberon and so many other are on your list to kill them.

I already wrote, you can not kill them. Either they have to get a weaker range or they have to be retrained. If not, they will be killed by the new content. If not, you will not see anything new in the game, because the mobs just will not reach you. The choice is yours. The rewards in this game don't really matter because you simply don't need anything other than saryn, which is overly effective in most NORMAL content.

13 минут назад, AkyFenrir сказал:

Funny to see you pretend Saryn is the only viable option to play High level. Why do you talk about high level if you never done it ? You love to talk about a lot of stuff you don't know ! (and you think you're right 😉

revenant is the best option for playing at a high level. I don't understand why you concluded that I think saryn is the best candidate. If by high level you mean a sortie, it can be passed by the operator, I already wrote about it. I describe the problem as excessive efficiency that hinders the game. I wrote it several times. How can I write this more clearly?

19 минут назад, AkyFenrir сказал:

Suggesting Ember was bad is wrong, if you didn't play at the time (she had 5 nerfs to get where she's now thanks to people like you by the way) . Suggesting a broken warframe isn't required because we got her replacement isn't an argument. It's just trolling people who liked Ember like me at this point. If you think Saryn is good against Flesh, you clearly proved multiple times now you don't know how damage work in the game.

I didn't really play it. But we do not consider Ember as a CC frame here. She's never been a good nukers above low levels.

38 минут назад, AkyFenrir сказал:

Removing every aoe of the game would make it a totally different boring game

But we can't make fun gameplay if enemies die outside the walls.

9 минут назад, Xepthrichros сказал:

That's pathetically small in open world maps.

But I forgot the game we are talking about here is called "Hydron". Not "Warframe". No modes except defense on one small tile exist, and everything should be balanced around one mode only

This only confirms my words that the new content can kill the nukers. You think this is good?

7 минут назад, TeaHawk сказал:

It already was given by many. Instead of trying to refute arguments you ignored them. Once it does not fit, you just pretend you did not see it. It is not discussion, it's not debate.

8 минут назад, TeaHawk сказал:

I am sorry, but you don't seem to understand what exactly are you taking about.

How am I supposed to answer that? I can only answer one question.

7 минут назад, TeaHawk сказал:

This is a lie. You are lying. Nobody said that. The way you're trying to deviate arguments is nothing but bullhsitting.

В 8/20/2019 в 12:31 AM, AkyFenrir сказал:

Let's recapitulate arguments here :

"First time meeting a Saryn, can't play bouh nerf plz" (In a sortie by the way, who wants to waste time on sorties seriously)

It's literally written on the back page. Yes, it is written in support of Saryn, but why can't I use this as an example? This is one message, you can find a lot of them.

 

[(PSN)NewcastleDisease]

vor 6 Minuten schrieb zhellon:

You can play anything after level 200. It is now considered a high level and Saryn damage there doesn't matter, you only cut the armor and kill with operator mines. We are talking about normal content. The normal content is in the range of 1-100 levels. Ember has a problem with it, but it was before. Remember when exactly there was a sortie and when it was nerfed Ember. Banshee same always crave the only for one button,.

ember hadn't a problem with it upon they nerfed several times her. if you don't know that, than you don't know what you are talking about.

high level is anything over 40 (or: everything after you reached sedna) and not 200. the majority of players will never reach a 200 level because thats a level you can't just play by joining. game design is mostly restricted to level 100 which is the top mission level unless you do endless mission with hours of playing. again - if you don't know that, you might have no idea what you are talking about.

as already pointed out, saryn is for enemies over 40, and yes - to strip their armor so the group can kill them easier. and whats the problem?

that misma kills enemies under 15? wuhu.. you can do that with a lot of frames with just pressing one button. because 15 is low level. a frame which is designed to play on lvl 60 should be able to kill such enemies. thats why you design a frame like this - to survive in harder levels. wouldn't it be kind of obscure if you get killed on lvl 15 like you get killed on lvl 60?

and no, you will not survive anything over 60 with every frame. third time you don't know what you are talking about - in just 3 lines.

[Xepthrichros]

29 minutes ago, zhellon said:

But we can't make fun gameplay if enemies die outside the walls.

Some people consider nuking enemies behind walls as fun too. Fun has many definitions and subjective. And the world doesn't cater to you. Especially in a game where such a mechanic already exists and people that enjoy said mechanic are using it. And you are the one asking these people to move aside and accept your demand for their enjoyed mechanic to be deleted or weakened till insignificance.

29 minutes ago, zhellon said:

What's the point of a weapon if we have a warframe that kills everything within a 50-70 meter radius?

The weapon is to kill those pesky arbitration drones and nullifiers and eidolons and orb mothers. What do all these things have in common? Immunity to spores. Don't want to see Saryn so often? Want something to shoot even if Saryn is around? Go to those missions. Problem solved. Or play solo. Elementary.

29 minutes ago, zhellon said:

This only confirms my words that the new content can kill the nukers. You think this is good?

Better than ALL content being anti-nukers, which is what some people are asking for. If nukers are nerfed until they are useless everywhere, why even exist? You yourself acknowledge the nuking damage tapers off at high levels. And now what? You want to argue for it to be weaker at low levels too? Some have to nuke through walls because they are glass cannons. Just a sneeze at them from an enemy and they are dead, so they kill first before the enemy sees them and shoots them.

Anyway, not surprised if some of you really want to eliminate nukers entirely as a role anyway, and maybe even turn Saryn into female Rhino eventually. Or turn all nukers into tanks. I mean, just look outside this thread, and see other threads saying Ember and Banshee (two former decent nukers that have been nerfed) needing more tankiness. Yeah, take away the cannon out of glass cannons, and all that is left is glass. Then ask that glass to be reinforced. Oh look, we created Rhino reskins. 

What I am getting from the nerf crowd is basically we can't have variety of content. Can't have variety of frame roles. You all want nukers gone. Instead of the current state, where we have a mix of content: 1) some modes make nukers less efficient, thus you use other things - basically all the other frames besides your typical nuking frames, such as tanks, CC, healers, and boss killers like Chroma .2) easier content meant for farming and also satisfies power fantasies, where nukers can enjoy the power trip and kill hordes of enemies with a few button presses (and a LOT of modding which required a LOT of farming previously, it's not like this power was not earned, because it was very much earned after much endo spent).

No no no. Must make everything equally slow. Must totally delete one way of enjoying the game, and alienate people who like to nuke.

 

29 minutes ago, zhellon said:

revenant is the best option for playing at a high level. I don't understand why you concluded that I think saryn is the best candidate

Because you are making a huge fuss against Saryn

 

 

Edited August 21, 2019 by Xepthrichros

[AkyFenrir]

il y a 7 minutes, Arcira a dit :

1.) Arguing about wether or not Saryn is overpowered is kinda redundant don´t you think? The topic should be is this a problem or not and I think there isn´t really a viable alternative.

2.) Maybe maybe not. However I´d assume the major rework for Volt and Saryn around the same time ESO was introduced are supposed to encourage player to use them. Also the Ember changes were around this time as well suggesting the actual reason for the nerfs is they want to make sure she isn´t good in star chart clear and eso at the same time (deversity). But that´s just speculation on my side.

3.) Since this topic is mainly about Saryn I´m trying to limit myself. Otherwise this would escalate into dissertation rather than a statement.

4.) I´ll try to clarify a bit more. This is specifically not about mission types but about playstyles e.g. defend xy, kill as fast as possible, survive/endurance. While there are a lot of missions most of them require the same setup. As strange as it sounds adding new ways to play warfame is probably the easiest way to solve the problem.

5.) Equal doesn´t mean identical. Probably one of the most challanging things in video games and and most developer prefer the much more easy way one tool for one task. There isn´t really a point in discussing this in games like warframe. Especially with things like static kits this is impossible without severely limiting the latidue of design.

You do realise i was answering someone else right ? Reading what that person said would have gone a long way to make you understandable.

Le'ts try to take the few things that makes sense because of that.

1.nothing to do with my answer. Skip.

2. Speculating isn't an argument.

3. Well, no it started on saryn. Problem is not exclusive to Saryn though. There is a ton of stuff to nerf for OP to be happy.

4. Well, i explained it. You didn't understood it. What am i  supposed to do? it's not Most of them it's a 1/4 of them requiring nukes. and it's provoking nerfs request. 

5. Let me explain, if a DPS warframe is supposed to be as powerfull as a support warframe it's boring. That's what i'm saying. No need to talk about gamedesign difficulty for that.

il y a 4 minutes, zhellon a dit :

What's the point of a weapon if we have a warframe that kills everything within a 50-70 meter radius? We need to find a balance. Keep in mind that weapons cannot do damage through walls (at least most samples). Just the ability to act independently of you, that is, you have the opportunity to inflict additional damage or go to another part of the map, leaving the enemies to die. The problem is that people don't think about it. Either nuck the whole map or nothing.

What's the point of a warframe if it can't perform better than a weapon? Should every dps skill be single target now ? what would be the point there are a lot of aoe weapons ?

il y a 4 minutes, zhellon a dit :

I take such accusations very calmly. Take Loki, put the "solo" mode and show a really good game.

I'm telling you ESO can be done solo without a nuker, you tell me this ? Loki gameplay has no point with nukers nerfs. What's your point ?

il y a 4 minutes, zhellon a dit :

revenant is the best option for playing at a high level. I don't understand why you concluded that I think saryn is the best candidate. If by high level you mean a sortie, it can be passed by the operator, I already wrote about it. I describe the problem as excessive efficiency that hinders the game. I wrote it several times. How can I write this more clearly?

At this point, i feel the need to point out it's getting hard to figure out what you're talking about, taking differents post from me at the same time is really hard to answer too, loosing track you know ? If you want to be clear, write more than a sentence. Detailing what you want to say would make it more clear since you're asking.

il y a 4 minutes, zhellon a dit :

I didn't really play it. But we do not consider Ember as a CC frame here. She's never been a good nukers above low levels.

Since you didn't play her, obviously you never considered her as a CC either, not surprised here. And now she's a bad nuker on low levels? what's your point? The way i understand you it goes along "she was good to kill low levels, she's nerfed now => saryn kills low levels => nerf her ?" It's really hard to understand you.

il y a 4 minutes, zhellon a dit :

But we can't make fun gameplay if enemies die outside the walls.

I find it relatively fun.

il y a 4 minutes, zhellon a dit :

This only confirms my words that the new content can kill the nukers. You think this is good?

 

Let's say "it's good", people don't care about future content they want to nerf her for current content anyway, so it's not even the subject here.

il y a 13 minutes, zhellon a dit :

It's literally written on the back page. Yes, it is written in support of Saryn, but why can't I use this as an example? This is one message, you can find a lot of them.

Because the OP met saryn in the very best condition and rushed the forum without thinking ! Even going on to say "you don't need anything else if you have Saryn".  First is stupid, Op would have found any other nuker he would have made it on that Nuker. It's not against saryn it's against nukers. Op don't understand that since he lacks experience and knowledge about the game. Using arguments from people who don't know the game and want to impose to everyone their vision of their beginner experience is terrible. 

Saryn isn't the ultimate do all and win all. 

You didn't say anything about the part "everyone rush sorties" of my comment ? I'm wondering why (i'm sarcastic here)?

We're repeating that. Ignoring everything we says and keep repeating the "well there's a lot of this one bad argument, why can't I use that bad argument myself "?

[TeaHawk]

1 hour ago, zhellon said:

Keep in mind that weapons cannot do damage through walls

This is already wrong. Take a look at staticor, take a look at melee whip with maiming strike, a 4+ punch-through rivens on beam weapons... take a... well... basically stop whining and go play the game, m8-

1 hour ago, zhellon said:

Take Loki, put the "solo" mode and show a really good game.

"Take a frame what is not designed for this mission and show a really good game". You are simply ridiculous. Really.... This is beyond recovery.

1 hour ago, zhellon said:

It's literally written on the back page. Yes, it is written in support of Saryn, but why can't I use this as an example? This is one message, you can find a lot of them.

->skip game modes != prioritize better game-play.

I am sorry. You are still deliberately sabotaging this conversation. Your last post is so full of nonesense, that even the most patient and good-willing teacher would give up on this.

Edited August 21, 2019 by TeaHawk

[selig_fay]

6 минут назад, AkyFenrir сказал:

I find it relatively fun.

So. That's what I wanted. You have fun killing enemies around you - it's great, but you should know that the players near you can suffer for your fun. Well, if you don't want nerf, let's think about how it can be done so that you keep this fun while not depriving players of the gaming experience. If you like, of course I have no right to deprive you of this, but you also have to respect my rights. We need to sit down and think. This should not concern new content, it should cover all content.

For example, I really like the idea of miniBosses appearing in every game, where they will be the main target for the kill, while regular mobs will just get in the way of that. That is, if we are talking about the defense, it will appear in the special mobs, killing them will stop the spawn wave. And the same for all modes like survival for getting special buffs, interception, for more efficient decryption of messages and more more more more.

Yes, you are to some extent right about the fact that nerf nukers is not the only solution. But a certain compromise is needed so that I alone could not be more effective than a whole group of fan frames.

[(PSN)NewcastleDisease]

vor 9 Minuten schrieb zhellon:

Yes, you are to some extent right about the fact that nerf nukers is not the only solution. But a certain compromise is needed so that I alone could not be more effective than a whole group of fan frames.

thats basically wrong...

there are frame which are designed to kill fast single enemys which can used to kill every boss in seconds.

and there are frame which designed to deal mass damage, which inflicts all in a specific radius. they can kill fast this enemies, but will not kill boss or even harder enemy types.

it's not wrong that frame have different purposes - it's just like you use a shotgun for inflict damage on many enemies while you will take a sniper to deal damage to a single target.

you are talking about making something for everyone - then nerfing frames will not make anything better. 

the problem (AGAIN!) is the damage system itself. not the frames, not the abilitys. even the designer knows that and had done several tries to fix this.

but you still talking about nerfing because its the best way - it isn't.

prohibition and restriction never did anything good.

Edited August 21, 2019 by (PS4)NewcastleDisease
typo

[TeaHawk]

9 minutes ago, zhellon said:

 We need to sit down and think. This should not concern new content, it should cover all content.

Yes, why not? For instance I've never come to see a single person complaining about nukers/op utility ingame. I'm playing on public almost everyday. Nobody ever asked me, or another player to slow down. The sole thing I've been asked after nuking a whole room is "How did you do that?", suggesting that a person is at least interested in game possibilities.

I'm curious, have you ever tried to speak in chat and gently ask people to slow down, giving you more time to enjoy combat? In case they cannot provide it, ask why so?
It might be a perfect solution as well as a new way to make friends/stable teammates and learn the game.

Edited August 21, 2019 by TeaHawk

[Pizzarugi]

18 minutes ago, zhellon said:

So. That's what I wanted. You have fun killing enemies around you - it's great, but you should know that the players near you can suffer for your fun. Well, if you don't want nerf, let's think about how it can be done so that you keep this fun while not depriving players of the gaming experience. If you like, of course I have no right to deprive you of this, but you also have to respect my rights. We need to sit down and think. This should not concern new content, it should cover all content.

For example, I really like the idea of miniBosses appearing in every game, where they will be the main target for the kill, while regular mobs will just get in the way of that. That is, if we are talking about the defense, it will appear in the special mobs, killing them will stop the spawn wave. And the same for all modes like survival for getting special buffs, interception, for more efficient decryption of messages and more more more more.

Yes, you are to some extent right about the fact that nerf nukers is not the only solution. But a certain compromise is needed so that I alone could not be more effective than a whole group of fan frames.

The problem with the idea of minibosses is that they would have to be absolutely crazy, like Wolf of Saturn Six levels of crazy, and would block the player's progress through the mission until they are dealt with. Anything less, and players will either melt them and move on or they'll simply ignore them. This seems like taking some of the bad mechanics that are already in the game designed to hinder players without nerfing them (nullifiers, enemies with high damage mitigation regardless of armor values, etc) and turning it up to 11. How long do you reckon it would take before most people are going to come on here and just complain that these minibosses need to be nerfed, because their nuke frame can't cheese them? 😛

And let's not forget another problem: Players who aren't running optimal meta builds are going to suffer even more. For nukers like Saryn, the minibosses would be like a roadblock. For everyone else, they're the Byzantine wall before the era of gunpowder.

I think it would just be easier to drop the nukers' stats and implement LoS restrictions. In Saryn's case, that would be range drops and LoS rules so she can't destroy everything 50+ meters around her regardless if they're behind obstacles or not.

10 minutes ago, TeaHawk said:

Yes, why not? For instance I've never come to see a single person complaining about nukers/op utility ingame. I'm playing on public almost everyday. Nobody ever asked me, or another player to slow down.

You're correct, but in my case, I just straight up leave the team. I don't play this game to have it played for me, because a teammate can't keep his finger off of 4. 😛

Edited August 21, 2019 by Pizzarugi

[TeaHawk]

8 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

You're correct, but in my case, I just straight up leave the team. I don't play this game to have it played for me, because a teammate can't keep his finger off of 4.

Thus, you don't experience any other problem related to Saryn except occasionally willing-fully leaving a session with Saryn-teammate on premise of not having enough combat for you? Is this correct?

Personally, I hate Limbo. I really-really hate Limbo. His mechanics are sabotaging my game-play in close quaters static combat. Each time I have one in team and it's defense/capture, I'm leaving the session. I don't see any problem with this. I don't like it — I avoid it. Simple as that. I'm really glad you're doing it the same way.

 

Edited August 21, 2019 by TeaHawk

[AkyFenrir]

il y a 1 minute, zhellon a dit :

So. That's what I wanted. You have fun killing enemies around you - it's great, but you should know that the players near you can suffer for your fun. Well, if you don't want nerf, let's think about how it can be done so that you keep this fun while not depriving players of the gaming experience. If you like, of course I have no right to deprive you of this, but you also have to respect my rights. We need to sit down and think. This should not concern new content, it should cover all content.

I'll start with your last part. "it should cover all content". Well Killing stuff all around in not "all content", i've proved it multiple times. She's good in Defense in small tilesets. That's all there is to her. If we consider mass killing for the 3/4 of the game, it's not even required. So tell me ? Why should we nerf something not covering all content or why should i find solutions for content not concerned with it ?

 

il y a 1 minute, zhellon a dit :

For example, I really like the idea of miniBosses appearing in every game, where they will be the main target for the kill, while regular mobs will just get in the way of that. That is, if we are talking about the defense, it will appear in the special mobs, killing them will stop the spawn wave. And the same for all modes like survival for getting special buffs, interception, for more efficient decryption of messages and more more more more.

I've a very hard time to make my mind around it. I don't think a miniboss would be a solution, i would kill all the trash with my nuke and oneshot the miniboss with my overpowered weapons anyway, I don't even thing anyone would get the time to see them. If they're not one shot than they're bosses. We've assassination already sooo. Would there be reward for specific places ? 

 

Don't get your point about survival. Saryn can't kill an entire survival map you can move around and mobs will spawn on you? Why do you need a specific mechanic where there's no need and plenty to shoot already for everyone ? Well raising efficiency is not really a good thing for DE, people getting stuff faster make them leave the game faster.

il y a 1 minute, zhellon a dit :

Yes, you are to some extent right about the fact that nerf nukers is not the only solution. But a certain compromise is needed so that I alone could not be more effective than a whole group of fan frames.

I'd rather explore more in depth ideas like your mini boss thing than nerfs. About how we could make it more fun for everyone than destroying nukers fan.

[Pizzarugi]

Just now, TeaHawk said:

Thus, you don't experience any other problem related to Saryn except occasionally willing-fully leaving a session with Saryn-teammate on premise of not having enough combat for you? Is this correct?

In a game where the main premise is a hoard shooter that has co-op? Yeah, I leave. This game kind of loses its draw of being that when it takes one person in a group of 4 to kill everything and leave the rest nothing to do except hoover up resources.

Just a reminder, this is the game we're playing:


Not this:

[TeaHawk]

Mini-bosses such as... wait for it... Nullifiers? 😀

[TeaHawk]

7 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

This game kind of loses its draw of being that when it takes one person in a group of 4 to kill everything and leave the rest nothing to do except hoover up resources.

This week we have an Eidolon Hydrolist hunt night-wave challenge. I would like to see how does one person perform on it. I'd rather see that blossoming one person next time on arbitration capture, so I could peacefully enjoy my teacup instead of keeping eye on my point. Could you please take Saryn or whateverelse you consider self-sufficient and play within my squad? I'd appreciate some help of one-man-super-nuke on Eidolon hunts and an inlimited range-duration CC-healer-buffer on capture. I'm not saying it's that hard to do in solo, no. I'm just curious, because it seems, you've reached such a power level, that you can single-handedly go through this content with ease I'm yet to reach.

Edited August 21, 2019 by TeaHawk

[(PSN)NewcastleDisease]

vor 7 Minuten schrieb Pizzarugi:

This game kind of loses its draw of being that when it takes one person in a group of 4 to kill everything and leave the rest nothing to do except hoover up resources.

uhm.. what exactly are you talking about.. ?

lvl 0-15 ? 

really i don't know what you are talking about - which frame on which level should kill everything so noone else can do something

[Pizzarugi]

6 minutes ago, TeaHawk said:

This week we have an Eidolon Hydrolist hunt night-wave challenge. I would like to see how does one person perform on it. I'd rather see that blossoming one person next time on arbitration capture, so I could peacefully enjoy my teacup instead of keeping eye on my point. Could you please take Saryn or whateverelse you consider self-sufficient and play within my squad? I'd appreciate some help of one-man-super-nuke on Eidolon hunts.
 

Nice strawman, dude. Just because one frame can't tackle literally everything in the game, it doesn't suddenly make them not OP. Is it really necessary for me to have to say that? Here's a fun tidbit of info: Chroma is broken and can trivialize bosses, and yes, he should be nerfed so players can't run 3+ trios in a single night setting and flood the market with arcanes.

Also, what on earth does this have to do with Saryn nuking entire rooms of enemies 50+ meters around her irrespective of obstacles, which is the topic of the discussion?

1 minute ago, (PS4)NewcastleDisease said:

uhm.. what exactly are you talking about.. ?

lvl 0-15 ? 

really i don't know what you are talking about - which frame on which level should kill everything so noone else can do something

The feeling's mutual. What are you talking about?

And when are you going to cut out your own strawman that people who want to see Saryn balanced to not trivialize the game just want everyone to play at level 15 when the game goes all the way to 100? You're just as absurd as TeaHawk.

Edited August 21, 2019 by Pizzarugi

[selig_fay]

19 минут назад, TeaHawk сказал:

Mini-bosses such as... wait for it... Nullifiers?

😀

I would prefer to abandon Nullifiers. Just a big mob with his mechanics, which ignores the control and damage ability (debuff ability, in principle, it is necessary to leave). Wolf is a good example, but the main problem with him was that he was too fat, but not particularly deadly. Of course, bosses need to be loosened up for solo play because we don't want to deal with content that can't be passed alone. But when forming groups, then, will be more valuable and nuckers and a tank and a support and debuffer/bossSlayer. Everyone will play their role and everyone will get their share of the fan. Of course, a less balanced group will be less effective, but it seems to me that it should be so. 

Nullifiers and ancient infected - that's not what I want, as is the usual mobs, just with the properties of resistance abilities. We need real tough guys to stop us.

Edited August 21, 2019 by zhellon

[AkyFenrir]

il y a 7 minutes, Pizzarugi a dit :

In a game where the main premise is a hoard shooter that has co-op? Yeah, I leave. This game kind of loses its draw of being that when it takes one person in a group of 4 to kill everything and leave the rest nothing to do except hoover up resources.

This is not an hoarder game (it's not an old solo RPG). It's a grinding game (or farming). Point is to grind ressources. There's not a single grinding game where players aren't using the most efficient equipment to farm. Using the right words is important.

il y a 7 minutes, TeaHawk a dit :

Mini-bosses such as... wait for it... Nullifiers? 😀

Sometimes I miss obvious stuff... Like the fact it's already in the game ....

il y a 1 minute, TeaHawk a dit :

This week we have a Eidolon Hydrolist hunt night-wave challenge. I would like to see how does one person perform on it. I'd rather see that blossoming one person next time on arbitration capture, so I could peacefully enjoy my teacup instead of keeping eye on my point. Could you please take Saryn or whateverelse you consider self-sufficient and play within my squad? I'd appreciate some help of one-man-super-nuke on Eidolon hunts.
 

I know a few people who could do a trio solo. Been doing it up to 5X3 in teams. I'm doing it in duo most of the times now with 2 unexperienced people to make them discover (from the clan...)

Still i like your style :) 

Can't wait for my 6X3 saryn carry! Must be cool !

[TeaHawk]

1 minute ago, Pizzarugi said:

Chroma is broken and can trivialize bosses, and yes, he should be nerfed

This one is absolutely amazing. It is beautiful. No words in whole human language can make this more beautiful.

2 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

Nice strawman, dude. Just because one frame can't tackle literally everything in the game, it doesn't suddenly make them not OP.

We are not speaking of OP. You've been saying that warframe lack teamplay destroyed by OP. I've refuted that by giving a brilliant example of content that requires teamplay.
Stop pretending you did not say that. You're jest circlejerking, nothing more.

[(PSN)NewcastleDisease]

vor 4 Minuten schrieb Pizzarugi:

The feeling's mutual. What are you talking about?

And when are you going to cut out your own strawman that people who want to see Saryn balanced to not trivialize the game just want everyone to play at level 15 when the game goes all the way to 100? You're just as absurd as TeaHawk.

ah. absurd because i have no idea why what you talk about?

just let me know on which level a saryn can kill everything else while noone else can kill something.

that only can be happens in a low level defense mission or in lower level symaris runs. any other mission type is to large, and every other enemie to strong...

the problem here is: i ask you for a simple prove of what you say. therefore: which frame, which level, which godlike-mods (because i dont know any mods thats makes saryn in a total overkilling monster) or which mission types.

but instead of an answer, you insult me.