Can something be done about Saryn?

[Arcira]

1 hour ago, AkyFenrir said:

You do realise i was answering someone else right ? Reading what that person said would have gone a long way to make you understandable.

Le'ts try to take the few things that makes sense because of that.

1.nothing to do with my answer. Skip.

2. Speculating isn't an argument.

3. Well, no it started on saryn. Problem is not exclusive to Saryn though. There is a ton of stuff to nerf for OP to be happy.

4. Well, i explained it. You didn't understood it. What am i  supposed to do? it's not Most of them it's a 1/4 of them requiring nukes. and it's provoking nerfs request. 

5. Let me explain, if a DPS warframe is supposed to be as powerfull as a support warframe it's boring. That's what i'm saying. No need to talk about gamedesign difficulty for that.

Fairly certain I´m me. At least I hope so. English isn´t my native language and the wording might not reflect the things I´m trying to express.

1.) Maybe I did misinterpret your statement but it sounded like you are trying to defend an obviously overpowered kit.

2.) Anything is subjective. But I admit speculation might not be the best word here since it is kinda obvious what those changes are supposed to accomplish. You can´t tell me those buffs and nerfs at this time were done without eso in mind. Otherwise if those things happened unintentionally and the general gameplay experience is supposed to be differnet it would actually be a reason nerf her.

3.) I don´t get the problem. Because there is other stuff that is brolken I have to make a statement about this as well? I prefer to take on one subject at a time otherwise it becomes overloaded and confusing.

4.) I think we talk past one another. Essentially what I said is because of the way warframe works its far more simple to keep saryn broken in her area and introduce more new, sustainable and most important viable mechanics, missions, etc where she is useless but currently underperforming warframes overpowered. Certainly not my prefered scenario but the most likely one. Actually now that I think about it there might be another problem about time management which needs to be considered here as well.

5.) That´s quite limited thinking. The kit defines what type of role you are useful for. But nobody said one charackter can have one kit only. That´s a design decision. A theme like "Ice" for example can be anything whether it´s a tank, support, dps even something like assassin or whatever. In the end it comes down to creativity and how much effort you are willing to put into things like balancing, esthetic, gamplay, etc. The reason this doesn´t work in this game is because a warframe isn´t really considered an avatar you can adjust freely rather than one package or a tool (like a weapon).

Edited August 21, 2019 by Arcira

[Pizzarugi]

8 minutes ago, AkyFenrir said:

This is not an hoarder game (it's not an old solo RPG). It's a grinding game (or farming). Point is to grind ressources. There's not a single grinding game where players aren't using the most efficient equipment to farm. Using the right words is important.

In your perspective, you think the point of the game is to farm, which is not the intention set out for the game. The game is grindy as hell, don't get me wrong, but DE didn't sit down together and say "hey, let's make a game with traumatized space wizards piloting cyborg monsters, who's only job is to act as the janitor!". 😛

The game is a hoard shooter, but it's become so grindy that people are choosing to trivialize the game with the most efficient frames in order to circumvent it. I'm not blind to the reason people cheese the game with them, but it's not a reason to justify why they should be allowed to continue being press-4-to-win abusers.

Edited August 21, 2019 by Pizzarugi

[KaijuKraid]

First thing to post: I don't necessary agree with what DE has done to Ember. However I'm going to post WHY DE FELT THE NEED TO NERF EMBER. Not that I actually agree with it. Also, while I thought Ember was perhaps a slight problem to low level and that she was probably hurting new player experience, I didn't agree she needed a nerf unless it was carefully done, which in this case it was not.

(By the way, I used to play alot of Saryn, Banshee and Ember alot back in the day. So you can imagine this topic is kind of making me sad for those old days also with what people are saying.)

People bringing up Ember and comparing them to Saryn seem to forget a few things while others hit the nail on the head perfectly. 

Ember has had many nerfs while gaining some buffs that have since been mitigated by more nerfs.

At the time I started playing Ember (around the time of Saryn and Banshee release), Ember's Overheat was pretty much the second best way to stay alive in Warframe at the time (With Rhino's Iron Skin also being a problem at the time.) She was pretty much kind of a close range frame due to this thanks to Fire Blast which the Ring of Fire has never increased by ability range. (Though the initial cast is.) Really the only ability that ever had any real range on Ember initially was World on Fire which saw quite a few bit of changes in terms of Duration/Toggle and Range. 

DE felt that Overheat was a problem and changed Ember from basically being a tank to making her be able to do tons more damage with Accelerant. They also started changing certain duration abilities with Toggles. Such as World on Fire and Soundquake (Which ALSO, before Augments was considered a massive problem.) Later on, Negative Duration Saryn was also considered a massive problem as well and thus she was reworked into Saryn 2.0. DE and everyone at the time were super against and hated 'Press 4 to win.' 

Ember's 'Last Problem' that people had with her was her insane ability to nuke low level/Star Chart enemies from orbit very quickly without thinking about it: A problem which DE stated as 'Press and Forget.' Hearing that people also wanted Ember to be 'more viable in Sorties' and such like, they increased her damage with World on Fire thinking that would be a fix, allowing her to 'be able to deal with Sortie level enemies.'

Ember was considered by most to ONLY be good at dealing with 'Low level Trash' and she was brought by many many people to do such as. Infact, many arguments why people didn't want Ember nerfed was because she was 'Only good at dealing with Low Level Trash and that we NEED a quick way of doing those missions.' While many other people argued they wanted Ember to be more useful outside of Low Level/Star Chart content and thus she needed a buff. This resulted in what we got: An Ember that lost range, gained increased energy drain but gained more power. That loss of Range is the most painful thing for Ember and thus DE decided that was the best way to make people 'Not Press and Forget.'

It's pretty flawed and DE have thankfully acknowledged it and want to fix Ember. So in the long run (very long run, sadly) we may benefit.

Now to Saryn: How does this apply to Saryn? Saryn actually has an opposite problem to Ember, which actually may be the reason Saryn is more fine than Ember actually ever was hilariously. 

Saryn has only one real mission in Star Chart that she actually 'dominates': Defence, which let's be clear, we need a way to clear Defence missions quickly. Not just in Star Chart, but in Sortie level also. If it's not Saryn though, it WILL be Equinox, Volt, Banshee, Khora, Nova and frames that nuke very quickly. Hell, I'll even make an argument that Ember herself could do Star Chart defence missions to Rotation C with her current World on Fire easily without any real form of challenge.

All other Star Chart type missions can be done quicker with other frames than Saryn. Even Exterminate, which again I'll actually argue that Ember can still do quicker and faster than Saryn. Equinox and Khora definitely can.

So where does this leave Saryn? The Post Starchart missions. Sorties, Long haul Endless, Arbitrations and SO/ESO. I can tell you for sure that out of all of those, Saryn is only useful in SO/ESO and anything to do with Post-Starchart Defence missions. Hell, the speed at which Saryn supposedly goes through Defence is not enough to make Defence a viable choice in Arbitrations. (However, that's due to Arbitration problems more than anything) which means you'll see more Limbo, Frost, Gara and Khora than Saryn in Arbitrations. 

So why does Saryn excel more in those than in Star Chart? Simple, because Enemy Scaling, especially Grineer and some Corrupted are insane. No one argues that Corrosive Projection x3 + Coaction Drift is almost a mandatory must/need against high level Grineer/Corrupted. No one argues that the best way to fight Eidolons/Profit Taker you need the massive DPS of Chroma. Yes, Saryn has access to the best elements in the game: Corrosive, Toxin and Viral. They can all proc also. However, it's due to late game armour scaling brokeness that these are basically required.

It seems Saryn 3.X was an olive branch to post-Star Chart stuff. She's mandatory because not even DE know how to fix their 'End Game' content currently. This is clear with the fact that they changed Arbitrations around and the way they messed around with ESO (And then subsequently basically abandoned it.) 

So is Saryn actually broken? Not in the content that DE actually want to balance things around. Is she broken in Post-Star chart? Depends how you think about it, but whether you think she's broken or not, she does become mandatory at really near endless levels in Defence and perhaps in Survival. Whether you think she is op/imbalanced or broken in that regard, you need to release that she is a SYMPTOM of the problems of Damage and Endgame scaling, not the cause. Nerfing Saryn doesn't fix these issues, it just makes it harder to deal with later down the road. 

[TeaHawk]

35 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

Also, what on earth does this have to do with Saryn nuking entire rooms of enemies 50+ meters around her irrespective of obstacles, which is the topic of the discussion?

Excuse me, but here is your previous post:

 

46 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

Just a reminder, this is the game we're playing:

You're speaking about this game in general. I've answered on this. You have a lot of content, where cooperation is required. Morother, good and efficient Saryn requires at least one support to be as good as she can be as a full nuke.

There's only a couple of game modes there Saryn is really the most efficient way to go through and it's only SO and ESO. All the rest of this game allows you to make better combination and require team-play. Then again, if you speak about low-levels and mid game, then almost any proper build can make the whole rest of the team redundant. For example, Volt on capture/rescue missions for instance. You're just ignoring that.

 

To note for those, who don't understand simple concepts: Nuking is not required in most of content. It's a waste of time and energy. Thus, nuke frame is not the most efficient frame in most of content. I.e. please note, that killing everything is not what you should focus on missions. Okay?
You may find it repetitive, but I have a long experience of seeing people running around and killing everything without advancing mission objective at all.

— I mean... Yeah... it's cool you got new weapon.... But listen, we are on stealth here... Could you please... Oh, I see how beautifully they are burning but we should focus on the objective, keep quiet! No, I don't wanna listen how op your ult is, we're on freaking stealth m8! Oh god, you're not op, you're not doing anything useful, come on! Could you please stop your genocide-party and come here, I can't open that door, m8?  It needs two players to proceed...

Oh. to hell that. Enjoy. I'll do the job.

It happens all the time.
 

Edited August 21, 2019 by TeaHawk

[AkyFenrir]

il y a 7 minutes, Pizzarugi a dit :

Chroma is broken and can trivialize bosses, and yes, he should be nerfed so players can't run 3+ trios in a single night setting and flood the market with arcanes.

So you don't like nukers, you don't like groupe meta either. 

You've never played any trios if you think a single chroma can do 3+trio by night. It's litteraly the most perfect example of a 4players cooperating together to get stuff.

Nerfing stuff for economy is even worse than nerfing stuff to remove people fun.

By the way Chroma isn't the only one to trivialize boss, any warframe can clear most bosses in a few seconds. And chroma sucks in anything non boss related. Why do you want to destroy warframes so badly ?

il y a 7 minutes, Pizzarugi a dit :

And when are you going to cut out your own strawman that people who want to see Saryn balanced to not trivialize the game just want everyone to play at level 15 when the game goes all the way to 100? You're just as absurd as TeaHawk.

You don't want balance you want to destroy Saryn to an Ember level so you can start complaining on the next warframe to nerf (since you looooove nerfing stuff).

It goes way over 100 by the way.

[TeaHawk]

13 minutes ago, AkyFenrir said:

Still i like your style 🙂

Thanks. Maybe we should play together someday. Or, at least, I'm curious, how to make 2-ppl Tridolon runs efficient. I have only one stable teammate to play with. It would be wonderful to learn the fastest way to complete hunts in duo.

[Pizzarugi]

23 minutes ago, AkyFenrir said:

You've never played any trios if you think a single chroma can do 3+trio by night. It's litteraly the most perfect example of a 4players cooperating together to get stuff.

I never said Chroma alone can take down eidolon, that's you putting words in my mouth, but he is often chosen as the DPS because he's one of the best for the job. Built right, he can 1-2shot any of the limbs once the shields go down.

23 minutes ago, AkyFenrir said:

By the way Chroma isn't the only one to trivialize boss, any warframe can clear most bosses in a few seconds.

I'd like to know how Nidus, Titania, Loki, Nyx, Vauban, or a myriad of others can trivialize eidolon, staying on that subject. The majority of bosses that aren't eidolon are levels 60 and below, with the rare exception of one going to 100 because of sortie, which makes them nowhere near comparable. Literally anyone with any weapon can kill them.

23 minutes ago, AkyFenrir said:

You don't want balance you want to destroy Saryn to an Ember level so you can start complaining on the next warframe to nerf (since you looooove nerfing stuff).

Holy crap, is this topic only dominated by people who can't argue anything beyond strawman to defend broken warframes? You're the third person who's either strawman by assuming I and others like me want to make this game outstandingly difficult, or made baseless accusations that I somehow want things nerfed because I like seeing it nerfed.

Hear me out: Reducing Saryn's range so her spores and 4 can't annihilate entire rooms and giving her LoS rules isn't suddenly going to make her Ember levels of bad. Wanting the game balanced so a player can't stroll in and turn the mission into a walking simulator isn't suddenly going to make the game so difficult that you can't play the game past 15 or 20. People like you are being ridiculous.

23 minutes ago, AkyFenrir said:

It goes way over 100 by the way.

DE doesn't officially have any content that starts over 100. If you go beyond that level, it's because you went to an endless mission and spent 30 or more minutes farming. DE isn't balancing the game with the intention of players going to level 150 or beyond, because there's nothing that needs them to do that. The highest this game goes is 100, but it's gated between an hour to an entire day (kuva floods and sorties), and the majority of your time will be spent in the star chart which goes as high as 60. There's absolutely nothing in the game that merits players needing so much power that they can press 1 button and turn an entire room of enemies into dead puffs of affinity points.

The closest thing we've got to DE encouraging players to run an endless mission for a long period of time is the Index, an hour to be precise. What do you get for the effort? A chance to meet the legendary meme himself: John Prodman, and get his poster to put on your ship.

Edited August 21, 2019 by Pizzarugi

[selig_fay]

18 минут назад, TeaHawk сказал:

Or, at least, I'm curious, how to make 2-ppl Tridolon runs efficient.

Oberon(strenght + augment buff weapons) + volt (strenght +augment buff weapons) .

[Klokwerkaos]

17 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

The highest this game goes is 100,

this isn't quite accurate.  you can get to about 110 in a T3 sortie.

[Pizzarugi]

2 minutes ago, Klokwerkaos said:

this isn't quite accurate.  you can get to about 110 in a T3 sortie.

Okay, but I was only like 10 levels off and if I'm correct, only happens in T3 endless missions. Thanks for the correction. >.>;

Edited August 21, 2019 by Pizzarugi

[AkyFenrir]

il y a 4 minutes, Pizzarugi a dit :

I never said Chroma alone can take down eidolon, that's you putting words in my mouth, but he is often chosen as the DPS because he's one of the best for the job. Built right, he can 1-2shot any of the limbs once the shields go down.

Here's my point you completely missed apparently. Chroma doesn't deny gameplay to other people. Is good in ONE mission type (boss) You want to nerf it because it's too good at doing single DPS...

My point was this. This is a thread about Saryn. We say Saryn can't carry stuff outside of defense, we show examples we're she doesn't shine (like more than half of the game). She's good at what she's supposed to do.

il y a 4 minutes, Pizzarugi a dit :

I'd like to know how Nidus, Titania, Loki, Nyx, Vauban, or a myriad of others can trivialize eidolon, staying on that subject. The majority of bosses that aren't eidolon are levels 60 and below, with the rare exception of one going to 100 because of sortie, which makes them nowhere near comparable. Literally anyone with any weapon can kill them.

I Said BOSSES not EIDOLONS, because you mentionned bosses in your post. If you don't want to talk about something don't bring it in the conversation and try to ridiculise people who answer ALL your words.

il y a 10 minutes, Pizzarugi a dit :

Holy crap, is this topic only dominated by people who can't argue anything beyond strawman to defend broken warframes? You're the third person who's either strawman by assuming I and others like me want to make this game outstandingly difficult, or made baseless accusations that I somehow want things nerfed because I like seeing it nerfed.

Hear me out: Reducing Saryn's range so her spores and 4 can't annihilate entire rooms and giving her LoS rules isn't suddenly going to make her Ember levels of bad. Wanting the game balanced so a player can't stroll in and turn the mission into a walking simulator isn't suddenly going to make the game so difficult that you can't play the game past 15 or 20. People like you are being ridiculous.

You made a strawman by pretending i said anything could kill eidolons. If you want to criticize people about something don't do it yourself.

As surprising as you might thing i'm not always talking about you. You're not the only one to talk here, and nerf to get the game harder is one argument said in this conversation. (You're super late to the topic? Did you read everything like i did or you just show up in the middle and go everywhere)

My accusation is fair, you want to nerf saryn (and nukers by extension because there's noway someone complaining about saryn killing rooms would not be against any nuker.) and you want to nerf or Boss farmer. Seriously you're in a litteral nerf request frenzy. Can't you see it ?

If you don't understand LOS to spores would kill the skill make it impossible to scale, I don't even know what to say now. People suggesting stuff who ignores completely consequences of their suggestions are difficult to deal with. You know to debate we need to understand what's going on and consequences you don't...

 

[TeaHawk]

28 minutes ago, zhellon said:

Oberon(strenght + augment buff weapons) + volt (strenght +augment buff weapons) .

Thanks. I'll consider this.

28 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

because there's nothing that needs them to do that

This is not quite true as well, as arbitration leveling goes beyond level 100 pretty fast, but it's a fine way to farm endo and statues. Considering you have to wait until new arbitration comes after the completion, it literally forces you to stay after lvl 100 if you desire for the better outcome.

Edited August 21, 2019 by TeaHawk

[Xepthrichros]

37 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

Holy crap, is this topic only dominated by people who can't argue anything beyond strawman to defend broken warframes?

Strawman? Lol. This topic happens to be on Saryn at the moment. But everyone who has been around here long enough (the forums, not just this topic) knows that people on the nerf side of the fence have taken shots at Volt, Equinox, Mag, Mesa and I have also seen Hildryn come up a few times (even when Hildryn and Mesa do have LoS limitation, and others I mention here are not as potent as Saryn). You don't get to pretend that people on your side have not asked for these to be nerfed when they clearly have. It is no strawman, when people have  indeed asked for such things and taken such a position. A certain knight of mirages does so in every, single, patch notes, stating a call for nerfs alongside other bugs and issues and disguising an issue of playstyle preferences as a matter of fact, which it is not.

And now I move on to after the nerf hits. Two examples: Ember and Banshee. What do we see after? People saying the nuke frame is so weak now and if she doesn't ever get her damage back, then she needs a buff to be able to tank damage. Again, as I said previously. What does this sound like? A warframe with some tankiness and weak nuke. Huh. OH. OH That's a... RHINOOOOOO.  You guys really want the game to be a bunch of Rhino clones in all shapes and sizes and to that, I say, No, Thank You. I prefer the different power levels and niches each warframe offers, and not just 40+ frames offering 4 similar moves but different cosmetics

Edited August 21, 2019 by Xepthrichros

[Cephalon_Saryndipity]

11 hours ago, Sea_Blue_Stars said:

 Saryn has an absurd ammount of power, and its accessible laughibly easy. She has no limitation, no downsides to her power. 

 

Well, I'll tell you this much: I was super drunk last night, haven't really played in a week (except for log in rewards, I've been playing Dragon's Dogma, so good) and spent last night doing my nightwave challenges. As I said I was not in the best frame of mind or body and still managed to not only lead in damage and kills and not die, I was like: oh wow... maybe that thread is right. Of course, the enemies were lower level so that probably helped too. But yeah, I can see how someone on the outside would see Saryn as way too powerful... But then, like, there's also Nidus and Inaros, who don't die and facetank like champions. 

Edited August 21, 2019 by (NSW)Badger

[Klokwerkaos]

31 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

Okay, but I was only like 10 levels off and if I'm correct, only happens in T3 endless missions. Thanks for the correction. >.>;

that said, leave saryn alone.  she's fine.  every frame except ember has at least one thing/mission type they are good at, and saryn is only really effective in eso, and even then i can out dps a saryn with my melee weapon, if other people can't, my suggestion is they grind some more and up their arsenal.  i'm not a super hero, if i can do it, so can anyone else. 

sure she can mess up other content, but not to the same extent because her spores will die and literally any frame can clear standard content "pretty good" if you build them right... and any  nerfs that make saryn less effective and people will just fill it with the new flavor of the month.  you should know this.  nuker frames have a place, and that place is to help reduce grind in a grindy game.  

people that don't like it also have options.  they can: 
-change their attitude and say thanks for the carry/free relics/affinity/focus, etc.

-play solo
-put their own groups together
-cry on the forums forever and when de finally touches her again they buff her again just like the last dozen times...
-uninstall

and if room nuking isn't part of the design intention, then why is the game mode she excells at built explicitly around the concept of nuking the room?  that's literally the whole point as defined by simaris himself when he tells you at the start of the mission to kill everything as fast you can.

I"m not even much of a saryn player personally, but i recognize her place, and her place is grinding out relics while hoping for an ephemera drop in eso.

and before it gets said... as far as people shouldn't have to put their own groups together, i preemptively call BS.  I do indeed have times where i want people to do  certain things and i can always get a group for it, even with highly specialized and heavy investment builds that maybe, generously, 10% of players can meet.  typically this is for dojo farming, but that's because that's the only priority i really have left.  but the point is, people have different goals and different motivations and different definitions of fun.  that is not up for argument.

as such, if you/I want people to cooperate with your specific plan on how a mission should go, then you need to get those people to agree to what you want (usually because they have the same goal) and  if you don't that is on you, and i know in the age of ultra entitlement this personal responsibility thing isn't a popular idea, but that doesn't make it less true.  when you pug, you get what you get, you go to carry or you go to fail, and not everyone plays like you or has the same motivations or goals as you.  if they line up, cool, but no, don't expect other people to have to conform to your idea of fun, that"s some ridiculous fascism right there.

you know what's annoying to me?  undergeared people taking the full minute to get to extract while they dig through lockers for 50 credits.  you know what I don't cry about on the forums and demand to be changed?  that.  because if i really am that upset about it can put my own group together, and because of that it's not up to me to tell them that the way they play is bad and shouldn't be allowed.  instead i choose, say, volt or wisp to buff their slow speeds to hurry them allong the way rather than nezha who is objectively faster (because then i'd be sitting on the extract much longer most of the time).

additionally there are times where i will choose to do a mission solo because i can speed clear it faster myself and other people will get in the way (like say, a radiation proc defense sortie, or if i want to run an exterminate syndicate mission but don't feel like fussing with medallions...

if someone else in the group is going to mess up your good time, it's your responsibility to take care of your own good time, just like nidus mains (like myself) don't get to cry about not getting stacks and anything else people would want to cry about.  your good time and goals are your responsibility, not that of the public.

you wanna know something else?  you know what frame people don't cry about that wastes the whole board just as well?  volt.
you wanna know something else?  i have people quit when i play any frame because i kill stuff too fast while not using saryn.  literally before i hopped over here i was running nidus and had three people quit on wave 2 and wave 4 after complaining they couldn't do anything and i wasn't even using any abilities, and i still finished out wave 8 on 100% (still no ephemera though).

this whole thing stems from a clear failure to communicate ahead of time about what kind of play experience a person wants, and that failure to communicate in advance is something the player can do, and thus if they didn't do it, is something they failed to do.

her existence is justified because grindframe.  her abilities are fine.

 

Edited August 21, 2019 by Klokwerkaos

[selig_fay]

2 минуты назад, (NSW)Badger сказал:

But yeah, I can see how someone on the outside would see Saryn as way too powerful... But then, like, there's also Nidus and Inaros, who don't die and facetank like champions.

That is why we need to keep DE clearly separated classes, balanced them relative to each other, and after that improved all the content, so all classes were doing their job.

At the moment, Saryn's problem is that it's effective in most of the content. Yes, it is not as effective on survival as on defense, but still more effective than most. And so, let's not forget that she is able to increase her speed, weapon damage and distract the mobs. At the moment she is the master of the farm.

[Cephalon_Saryndipity]

Just now, zhellon said:

That is why we need to keep DE clearly separated classes, balanced them relative to each other, and after that improved all the content, so all classes were doing their job.

At the moment, Saryn's problem is that it's effective in most of the content. Yes, it is not as effective on survival as on defense, but still more effective than most. And so, let's not forget that she is able to increase her speed, weapon damage and distract the mobs. At the moment she is the master of the farm.

which is why I love her. Plus the new lighting and such make her orphid skin even prettier. god I love saryn. 

[Pizzarugi]

3 minutes ago, AkyFenrir said:

Here's my point you completely missed apparently. Chroma doesn't deny gameplay to other people. Is good in ONE mission type (boss) You want to nerf it because it's too good at doing single DPS

That's correct, he doesn't deny gameplay to other people compared to Saryn, but he's still able to do things to trivialize aspects of the game few to no other frame can. This puts him lower on the list of priorities in regards to game balance. That doesn't mean he shouldn't be nerfed to keep him from trivializing things like boss fights or eidolon, but it means he shouldn't be the first thing we should focus on.

7 minutes ago, AkyFenrir said:

My point was this. This is a thread about Saryn. We say Saryn can't carry stuff outside of defense, we show examples we're she doesn't shine (like more than half of the game). She's good at what she's supposed to do.

But this is so wrong on so many levels.
1. No frame is better than her for farming life support in Survival (Hydroid used to be better, but last I remember, Pilfering Swarm got nerfed)
2. She destroys Extermination by bouncing from one room to another, spamming 4 and letting everything die behind her
3. Sabotage is just simply forcing the reactor into a meltdown (very few people ever want to cause something else) so literally anyone can do it
4. Despite DE's attempts to keep it interesting, Spy can still easily be done with any frame, but specialization really only becomes a concern in sortie where failing 1 room costs the mission. Frames can make it easier, yes, but they're training wheels more than anything. Hell, using your operator is good enough to get through most obstacles without tripping alarms.
5. Defection is another place Saryn dominates by spamming 4. Enemies drop power cells by the handful and all it takes is to kill them all with a single button. She can even make the defect escorts non-challenging by following the group and spamming 4 if anything gets too close.
6. In Excavation, the excavators can't be threatened if everything is dead, making Saryn another outstanding choice. I will say she probably falls off in usefulness faster in this mission, but only because you can hammer through cycles in this mission faster than any other endless mission in the game, so enemies scale very quickly.
7. As I've argued earlier, bosses only go up to about level 60, with the rare exception of an Assassination mission happening in a T3 sortie, so literally anyone can do it. She does have a lot easier time against bosses who spawn swarms of adds to assist them, directly or indirectly.

And this doesn't even cover things like invasions, fissures, syndicate missions, Cetus and Fortuna missions. I don't even need to talk about how gross she is in (E)SO. I'm not sure where you're getting "more than half the game" from. 😛

28 minutes ago, AkyFenrir said:

I Said BOSSES not EIDOLONS, because you mentionned bosses in your post.

This bit of the conversation started, because someone else here tried to refute my argument by saying "lol i'd like to see saryn solo eidolon".

Also, just a reminder that you kept it on that subject:

1 hour ago, AkyFenrir said:

You've never played any trios if you think a single chroma can do 3+trio by night.

You then tried to pivot to it being about bosses, which wasn't even the subject at the time. Hell, eidolon aren't even the subject of Saryn turning the game into a walking simulator for the majority of the game, but here we are.

Regardless, bosses aren't even challenging in this game. This game only goes up as far as level 60 before things like kuva floods or sorties are factored in. They are far from being a challenge, especially with how crazy powerful players can get in the current state of the game. In fact, DE's been going on a trend of giving later bosses invulnerability phases just to keep players from murdering them in a second.

37 minutes ago, AkyFenrir said:

My accusation is fair, you want to nerf saryn (and nukers by extension because there's noway someone complaining about saryn killing rooms would not be against any nuker.)

First of all, you speak as if nerfing is a bad thing for the game's health. Have you considered that maybe if players are given everything, they'll ultimately wind up with nothing left to do, and eventually quit? Burnout is a thing, and nukers like Saryn are an accelerant. DE wants the game to survive, and they can't do that if players get bored from lack of things to do. Why do you think they're gating everything behind grind? I don't like grind, neither do you, and especially neither do the players who abuse press-4-to-win frames like Saryn, but this is what DE's been reduced to doing in order to keep you from finishing all of the game's content in about a month (I'm exaggerating) and never coming back.

Secondly, yeah, the other nukers need to be nerfed as well for the same reason as Saryn. No one frame should be able to do what an entire team of players should be capable of doing together. However, the subject of the topic is about Saryn, not press-4-to-win frames in general.

49 minutes ago, AkyFenrir said:

If you don't understand LOS to spores would kill the skill make it impossible to scale, I don't even know what to say now.

How about you explain? "I can't even" isn't a reason.

If anything, LoS would make things like spores require more skill, because that means you can't infect one enemy, pop them, and suddenly infect the entire room. Now you have to cast it several times around you and pop them in order to get them to spread, requiring you to put in a little more effort than simply "shoot one guy".

[AkyFenrir]

Il y a 1 heure, zhellon a dit :

That is why we need to keep DE clearly separated classes, balanced them relative to each other, and after that improved all the content, so all classes were doing their job.

At the moment, Saryn's problem is that it's effective in most of the content. Yes, it is not as effective on survival as on defense, but still more effective than most. And so, let's not forget that she is able to increase her speed, weapon damage and distract the mobs. At the moment she is the master of the farm.

Classes are clearly separated. This entire topic attack ONE of them. AOE dps frames. If anything frames like ember,mag, banshee should be up to be to par with Saryn.

Saryn isn't the best for survival. She's not even part of survival meta... Yeah and she sucks anything non mass murdering related in small maps. Looks like a limitation to me ...

il y a une heure, Pizzarugi a dit :

That's correct, he doesn't deny gameplay to other people compared to Saryn, but he's still able to do things to trivialize aspects of the game few to no other frame can. This puts him lower on the list of priorities in regards to game balance. That doesn't mean he shouldn't be nerfed to keep him from trivializing things like boss fights or eidolon, but it means he shouldn't be the first thing we should focus on.

(May I remind you you were the one saying i was doing a strawman of you about your nerfs request, you've an entire list now, you proved yourself wrong retroactively well done!)

If you nerf something it will be replace by the next good thing. Funny thing you never mention "what's ok", should we spend 50 minutes in one trio because you think there's too many arcanes for sale ? Don't you think there's any value in going to optimize something to be the best possible ? I do...

il y a une heure, Pizzarugi a dit :

But this is so wrong on so many levels.
1. No frame is better than her for farming life support in Survival (Hydroid used to be better, but last I remember, Pilfering Swarm got nerfed)
2. She destroys Extermination by bouncing from one room to another, spamming 4 and letting everything die behind her
3. Sabotage is just simply forcing the reactor into a meltdown (very few people ever want to cause something else) so literally anyone can do it
4. Despite DE's attempts to keep it interesting, Spy can still easily be done with any frame, but specialization really only becomes a concern in sortie where failing 1 room costs the mission. Frames can make it easier, yes, but they're training wheels more than anything. Hell, using your operator is good enough to get through most obstacles without tripping alarms.
5. Defection is another place Saryn dominates by spamming 4. Enemies drop power cells by the handful and all it takes is to kill them all with a single button. She can even make the defect escorts non-challenging by following the group and spamming 4 if anything gets too close.
6. In Excavation, the excavators can't be threatened if everything is dead, making Saryn another outstanding choice. I will say she probably falls off in usefulness faster in this mission, but only because you can hammer through cycles in this mission faster than any other endless mission in the game, so enemies scale very quickly.
7. As I've argued earlier, bosses only go up to about level 60, with the rare exception of an Assassination mission happening in a T3 sortie, so literally anyone can do it. She does have a lot easier time against bosses who spawn swarms of adds to assist them, directly or indirectly.

And this doesn't even cover things like invasions, fissures, syndicate missions, Cetus and Fortuna missions. I don't even need to talk about how gross she is in (E)SO. I'm not sure where you're getting "more than half the game" from. 😛

1. She has no loot buff... You've a reccurent problem with things being the best. Little tip for you, whatever balance you'll manage to achieve, there will always be one best used by the most dedicated farmers. Punishing them because you don't understand the game is selfish. There's no other word here.

2. There's so many things that can do just that. Yet you mention only Saryn for some reason. Oh yes, you don't like the "best stuff".

3. So saryn doesn't matter here. Wow can't believe it.

4.So never noticed all the people having no problem joining public sorties to get carried away? They don't even move ! But since it's a puzzle stuff and they don't want to learn in that very specific scenario having nothing to do is totally fine! Why is there no request to make 1 terminal by player and force everyone to do their ? This would give gameplay to everyone ? Don't you see a problem in your logic there ?

5. What's your point? this subject is about people not being able to kill stuff, there's plenty to do there... You can make 2 teams running together so one Saryn isn't a problem Here. Yet "she's the best" so nerf again.

6. Well excavators can't be theatened if there's a limbo on it, you don't even need a saryn to kill specific ennemies, a loki can do it, there's litteraly no reason to kill anything so she's not mandatory here either. (you thinking it's the case doesn't make it true)

7. You just said in the first sentence Chroma is the boss farmer?  Why do you need to pretend saryn is great where she's not ? Why are you so desesperated to try to justify this nerf ? 

 

Invasions, fissures, syndicates missions are regular missions with a little extra. How can you make so little sense ? it's not even an argument! Please stop saying stuff for nothing. 

Cetus and fortuna you mean bounties ? SERIOUSLY? Saryn is terrible there it's way too big ! 

ESO is a nuker gamemode ! thankfully she's good in it! How can you disprove your own arguments yourself without realising it ? 

 

il y a une heure, Pizzarugi a dit :

This bit of the conversation started, because someone else here tried to refute my argument by saying "lol i'd like to see saryn solo eidolon".

Also, just a reminder that you kept it on that subject:

You then tried to pivot to it being about bosses, which wasn't even the subject at the time. Hell, eidolon aren't even the subject of Saryn turning the game into a walking simulator for the majority of the game, but here we are.

Regardless, bosses aren't even challenging in this game. This game only goes up as far as level 60 before things like kuva floods or sorties are factored in. They are far from being a challenge, especially with how crazy powerful players can get in the current state of the game. In fact, DE's been going on a trend of giving later bosses invulnerability phases just to keep players from murdering them in a second.

Let me explain to you again: If you talk about bosses being 60 less, than about eidolon. If i'm talking about bosses and you don't get you're the one who brought it. You don't understand english or you can't handle a conversation. (I can respect the first one, since i'm not from england myself, the second there's no way i can respect you).

That's why Chroma is good against bosses, he buffs his own damage and you want to nerf him too. (...)

il y a une heure, Pizzarugi a dit :

First of all, you speak as if nerfing is a bad thing for the game's health. Have you considered that maybe if players are given everything, they'll ultimately wind up with nothing left to do, and eventually quit? Burnout is a thing, and nukers like Saryn are an accelerant. DE wants the game to survive, and they can't do that if players get bored from lack of things to do. Why do you think they're gating everything behind grind? I don't like grind, neither do you, and especially neither do the players who abuse press-4-to-win frames like Saryn, but this is what DE's been reduced to doing in order to keep you from finishing all of the game's content in about a month (I'm exaggerating) and never coming back.

Secondly, yeah, the other nukers need to be nerfed as well for the same reason as Saryn. No one frame should be able to do what an entire team of players should be capable of doing together. However, the subject of the topic is about Saryn, not press-4-to-win frames in general.

The nerf you wants are bad. You want other people enjoyment destroyed for your own. I'm still there since the start of the game, i've no problem with nukers, or chroma. My problem is more Vauban, ember related. I suppose wanting to add variety instead of wanting everything to be the same might surprise you.

Why do you assume I don't like grind ? I enjoy it, i'm playing warframe and other grinding game. Always going for the most efficient way, that's how i'm having fun! Your making assumptions about other players enjoyment, thinking somehow since you don't like something, nobody can. You're wrong. I'm coming back everytime there's something new whenever i go play something else. I'm a founder and i'm still here. It's proving we're not leaving the game. Stop doing strawmans after strawmans. You're the one who complained about it remember ?

il y a une heure, Pizzarugi a dit :

How about you explain? "I can't even" isn't a reason.

If anything, LoS would make things like spores require more skill, because that means you can't infect one enemy, pop them, and suddenly infect the entire room. Now you have to cast it several times around you and pop them in order to get them to spread, requiring you to put in a little more effort than simply "shoot one guy".

 You know, cutting quotes to make it favorable to you and miss this part :  People suggesting stuff who ignores completely consequences of their suggestions are difficult to deal with. You know to debate we need to understand what's going on and consequences you don't... 

You've lost all credibility at this point.  

 

I'll help you understand why is your LOS suggestion terrible ? Read the wiki trough this link: (not because of you, but people who don't know about it might learn something, and that would help the discussion at least.

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Saryn#Abilities

Pay a very specific attention to the Decay part, that's why i'm telling you you're wrong with your idea (but don't stop there read everything spore related)

If you still think LOS on spore wouldn't completely destroy this skill. You're a troll. A bad troll at that.

It's litteraly one of the skill requiring the most work in the entire game to make it work. You talk about it like a "one button to press to clear map", that's why we're not taking you seriously.

 

 

Edited August 21, 2019 by AkyFenrir

[(PSN)The1stAzrael]

12 hours ago, Cibyllae said:

How much Xp do you have on Saryn?

Edit: Cause im getting extremely tired of your bull s h i t

You don't have to contact Ebola to figure out that it's a deadly disease. While first-hand experience is highly valuable, in some careers, it is not necessary, if you can easily evaluate the problem based on observation and research.

8 hours ago, AkyFenrir said:

1. Except it isn't good against infested past a certain level too.

Infested is the weakest faction in the game. I've never even bothered using a gas load-out when dealing with infested missions, because they're easily melted by my Pyrana P or rivened Vaykor Sydon.

8 hours ago, AkyFenrir said:

3. Ember was popular sooo... 

Well, fair point I guess. In hindsight, they do have something of a track record when it comes to dis-regarding popularity over their own feelings. But, it's their game.

8 hours ago, AkyFenrir said:

5. Let's say for argument sake: the game get "balanced" a dps frame should not be equivalent to a furtive or support or tanky one. Or they're all the same and there's no abilities anymore.

That's basically what I said. Equalising the warframes is impossible since there will always be one who's better than the others at specific mission types.

 

8 hours ago, AkyFenrir said:

6. They're working on melee 3.0 ... We'll see after that maybe ?

If my memory serves me correctly, Melee 3.0 was announced quite sometime ago, and the version we got earlier this year, was poorly received by some. What ever revamped damage system we'll get will result in a massive outcry, because shaking up the current damage meta will end up moving Saryn down or could end up making everything even more broken than it is now.

 

10 hours ago, Xepthrichros said:

Yeah so alienate current player base, everyone who ever invested in Saryn, bought skins for her, etc. consider her a main, and also everyone else who isn't maining her but understands her purpose and role in terms of fodder-clearing DPS and use her for that, and then use other warframes to do other things like Chroma to kill Eidolons, just to satisfy complaints. Eliminate one good tool and make it useless just to appease some people that do not understand her purpose.

"..That could transform the game into something entirely different". Any major changes to the game will end up alienating a percentage of their base.

If we limited the number of enemies affected by her spores, than we wouldn't have this sort of problem. Her spores and Miasma can affect dozens of enemies, but if we'd simply lowered that to 15 or 20 enemies at a time, you'd still be able to have your power fantasy, without nuking the entire room or removing an element of gameplay from others.

Same goes for any other nuke frame. Placing a reasonable restriction on their power would quickly remove most of the complaints regarding nukers.

9 hours ago, AkyFenrir said:

1. If you don't know the best way to grind ressources is trough Survival ... Where Saryn isn't even a "good" thing there. My point is : I reached a point where i want to limit my time spent to grind ressources by going with the best option available. Saryn isn't even there, it's just a way to go quickly trough defenses. I don't particularly like a mode where there's so long down times between fights, and since i'm farming over and over Hydron with gear to formate, I can't even imagine spending 3 to 4times that time with barely playable stuff.

"...Saryn isn't any good in survival..." Saryn, a nuke frame, has trouble nuking enemies in a controlled area? Have you gone mad? That's basically saying Volt can't nuke things outside of ESO, when we all know he can. Sure, regular maps are much larger than ESO's, but most people don't leave the first life-support area either, which in turn, draws all the enemies to that one spot.

9 hours ago, AkyFenrir said:

3. Here's the thing, I don't think a correct argument has less value than mines. However when it's about destroying a convenience, while there are ways to avoid it (and not requiring nerfs). Who's the bad one here ? In my opinion ruining other players gameplay because you don't like it (even if you can actively avoid it) is worse than suggesting to go premade. => one wants to deny gameplay, the other offer a solution that can be done now. Whatever the subject i'll always side against gameplay reducing nerfs.

It's convenient to speed through areas where the limit is 30; there are a lot of things that provide convenience, but that doesn't mean they're good for us. Playing nuke frames could be seen as ruining others gameplay, whether it's intentional or not. Purposefully bring a Slowva to defense mission is rude, since it just drags things out, but the person who loves playing Slowva doesn't see it like that. Or the blinding Mirage gameplay. It hurts your eyes, but who cares, because they love playing that character.

9 hours ago, AkyFenrir said:

4. So let's say we Nerf nukers, we can't use them solo either anymore ? Would affect us a lot. There's one obvious point about "difficulty" in the game. Whenever it's added by DE complaints are flying "too hard and stuff". I'm not of of those people but, as mentionned by dev themselves they want an accessible content everyone can enjoy. If it starts to get challenging people will go off. I'll add here i've no idea how this change would affect the game in term of players, it's complete speculation.

Again, nering nukers wouldn't solve the problem long term. That's what I've been saying. Instead I've suggested that we place restrictions on their power. And each time, it's just been rejected immediately, since the community thinks limits or cool-down mechanics spell doom for everything in the game. The devs can't just suddenly introduce something incredibly difficult after years of just stupidly easy game-play, it would cause an uproar, and people would immediately ask for it to be reduced to the current level of difficulty. Which is very low. Trying to give the community accessible content is what created this horrible damage unbalance in the first place.

 

9 hours ago, AkyFenrir said:

5. Well I suppose it depends what you're looking to do. If you're going for unpopular missions it'll be hard for sure. For hydron, ESO and so on it's relatively easy (and that's where nukers shine anyway). I do get you don't want to leave your inactive clan, it's on you if you're not joining an active clan. Gotta say i'm in a big clan and can't really play in clan. Since you don't want to quit, maybe you should ask the rights to your friend so you could join an alliance to play with other players ?

I've tried organising runs for vaulted relics and Hieracon. Maybe absolutely no one had Valkyr relics at the time. The Hieracon one was a bit surprising, since so many people tout it as the best place to farm cryotic and relics. The situation in my clan is a bit strange, since the person running it had quit for very long time, and so the second in command (friend of the original leader) made everyone warlords. However, the original leader came back a few weeks ago, and demoted everyone, back to initiate.

[selig_fay]

15 минут назад, (PS4)The1stAzrael сказал:

Again, nering nukers wouldn't solve the problem long term. That's what I've been saying. Instead I've suggested that we place restrictions on their power. And each time, it's just been rejected immediately, since the community thinks limits or cool-down mechanics spell doom for everything in the game. The devs can't just suddenly introduce something incredibly difficult after years of just stupidly easy game-play, it would cause an uproar, and people would immediately ask for it to be reduced to the current level of difficulty. Which is very low. Trying to give the community accessible content is what created this horrible damage unbalance in the first place.

Here I can understand why people don't like restrictions. Playing on hildryn you may know that when you use her 4 ability, you can't use personal weapons and her 2 ability. It can be done for the purpose of balance, but it is very unpleasant and seems useless.

[(PSN)The1stAzrael]

8 minutes ago, zhellon said:

Here I can understand why people don't like restrictions. Playing on hildryn you may know that when you use her 4 ability, you can't use personal weapons and her 2 ability. It can be done for the purpose of balance, but it is very unpleasant and seems useless.

Well yeah, in this current situation, restrictions on anything seem arbitrary, when you have frames like Saryn, Volt and Mesa running around. Even weaker frames like Vauban can just pave a hallway with mines and lock down that portion of the map.

[Spectre-8]

Multiplayer is optional 🤣

[AkyFenrir]

il y a 12 minutes, (PS4)The1stAzrael a dit :

If my memory serves me correctly, Melee 3.0 was announced quite sometime ago, and the version we got earlier this year, was poorly received by some. What ever revamped damage system we'll get will result in a massive outcry, because shaking up the current damage meta will end up moving Saryn down or could end up making everything even more broken than it is now.

Well, what we got as nothing to do with 3.0 as far as we know. Melee is already broken, Maiming strike is a reccurent complaint around here. I can't speculate about the future, we've no info to work with so far. 

To be honest, a complete rework of all the dps in the game would change things for sure. I'd be fine with that (well it would be difficult to get dps more broken at this point let's be honest). It's all about armor scalling right now. If DE can find a good solution or not, future will tell.

My point was, there's no point to nerf Saryn if it's the only thing done. There's so many replacements right now.

il y a 12 minutes, (PS4)The1stAzrael a dit :

"...Saryn isn't any good in survival..." Saryn, a nuke frame, has trouble nuking enemies in a controlled area? Have you gone mad? That's basically saying Volt can't nuke things outside of ESO, when we all know he can. Sure, regular maps are much larger than ESO's, but most people don't leave the first life-support area either, which in turn, draws all the enemies to that one spot.

exact quote was "even as any "good". My farming team is Mesa/nekros/speedva/limbo (or trinity). I was answering to someone suggesting if there's one Saryn in a survival the rest of the team is useless... I'm trying to deal with that kind of stuff, at some point i might miss the mark and english isn't my mother language so yeah.

and most people don't leave the first site doesn't mean people can't leave that if they want to shoot, most survival 20 minutes are totally fine like that (not as efficient for sure, wouldn't be going in public to farm efficiently anyway)

il y a 12 minutes, (PS4)The1stAzrael a dit :

It's convenient to speed through areas where the limit is 30; there are a lot of things that provide convenience, but that doesn't mean they're good for us. Playing nuke frames could be seen as ruining others gameplay, whether it's intentional or not. Purposefully bring a Slowva to defense mission is rude, since it just drags things out, but the person who loves playing Slowva doesn't see it like that. Or the blinding Mirage gameplay. It hurts your eyes, but who cares, because they love playing that character.

Well, sure, can't really deny that part about convenience.

I've never denied it, i've said public game is a lottery, you get what you get, there are ways to avoid saryn. Somehow seems easier to come discuss 52 pages instead of doing just that. 

Nova part is interesting, considering you've total control about how this skill will affect ennemies speed. Whenever i encouter slowva, i'm trying to discuss with them how to control it. If they don't care and are just there to troll, well it's public game, i leave and join next group. Something anyone can do. Yet they prefer to stay and suffer for some reason ?

 

Mirage is on another scope. It's a graphic problem. Can be solved easily without affecting gameplay balance? Even possible to add one reduce special effects from other players like they allow us to mute octavia musics.

il y a 12 minutes, (PS4)The1stAzrael a dit :

Again, nering nukers wouldn't solve the problem long term. That's what I've been saying. Instead I've suggested that we place restrictions on their power. And each time, it's just been rejected immediately, since the community thinks limits or cool-down mechanics spell doom for everything in the game. The devs can't just suddenly introduce something incredibly difficult after years of just stupidly easy game-play, it would cause an uproar, and people would immediately ask for it to be reduced to the current level of difficulty. Which is very low. Trying to give the community accessible content is what created this horrible damage unbalance in the first place.

Yeah, massive rework, how it ends might get a different game, could be good or bad, it's a risky bet to take. 

Limits when they talk about range or affected generally comes from people who don't know nukers are the only overpowered things in the game. There will always be troll around with build to annoy people too. Should we nerf those ? Don't know.

Well CD is a very unique thing. let's say if it's 10 seconds like ESO it's kinda irrelevant, so you'll have to make it way longer minimum 30 Seconds. Than people would see maiming strike and other stuff, slighty less powerfull but still broken like you call it. 

Dev reaffirmed their will to keep warframe very accessible so, sorry i don't expect change on this very line.

il y a 12 minutes, (PS4)The1stAzrael a dit :

I've tried organising runs for vaulted relics and Hieracon. Maybe absolutely no one had Valkyr relics at the time. The Hieracon one was a bit surprising, since so many people tout it as the best place to farm cryotic and relics. The situation in my clan is a bit strange, since the person running it had quit for very long time, and so the second in command (friend of the original leader) made everyone warlords. However, the original leader came back a few weeks ago, and demoted everyone, back to initiate.

Well vaulted relics like valkyr are relatively old, since 25th september 2018. So yeah people who started 8 months ago can't have those... It's super easy to find groups for current relics. In fact i'm not even bothering to make premades for hieracon, most public groups are good there. Since you can leave whenever you want know you're not as trapped as you used to be.

Sadly i can't help you to solve people problems like you're experiencing. Only thing i can suggest is to try to contact him ? If you can't you either stay alone or find a new clan... I hope you'll get a good solution for you. (That's why i'm not really a huge fan of dojos. You can invest in there and lose access or control of it if you've a problem with leaderships. I'm focusing on my orbiter decoration, at least this one won't go away if things turn bad with my clan...)

[Pizzarugi]

1 hour ago, AkyFenrir said:

Classes are clearly separated. This entire topic attack ONE of them. AOE dps frames. If anything frames like ember,mag, banshee should be up to be to par with Saryn.

The last thing this game needs is power creep. We shouldn't be buffing other frames to be capable of trivializing the game like Saryn can when we should be bringing them down to their level. Again, there's no reason why players need this much killing power.

1 hour ago, AkyFenrir said:

Saryn isn't the best for survival. She's not even part of survival meta...

Says who? Most of your time spent will be in the star chart which is level 60 max. She can very easily destroy survival for at least a good 40 minutes.

1 hour ago, AkyFenrir said:

Yeah and she sucks anything non mass murdering related in small maps.

Like bosses, who barely make up a noticeable fraction of the game, and are already so trivial that anyone can kill them easily? 😛

1 hour ago, AkyFenrir said:

If you nerf something it will be replace by the next good thing.

"There will always be a loot cave" is not an excuse to not balance the game. If it was, we'd still have Nova instantly applying 4 to everything immediately upon cast followed by everything exploding at once, press-4-to-win cruise control Ember, Trinity bypassing invulnerability phases by blowing herself up while Link is active, Mirage and Synoid Simulor spam, pre-nerf Vex Armor Chroma easily scoring 1shots on eidolon parts, etc. You know how much of an imbalanced mess this game would be if nothing got nerfed, because somewhere out there, someone may be upset that their cheese is no longer viable?

1 hour ago, AkyFenrir said:

Funny thing you never mention "what's ok", should we spend 50 minutes in one trio because you think there's too many arcanes for sale ?

In a balanced game, probably 1 or 2 trios a night should be achievable rather than 3-4+ we can do right now. Is there any reason why it's necessary to kill that many in one night, beyond trying to farm more easily for the rare arcanes that further trivialize the game (ex. Arcane Energize)?

1 hour ago, AkyFenrir said:

Don't you think there's any value in going to optimize something to be the best possible ? I do...

"Given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of a game."

Saryn is one of the most optimized frames in the game, capable of doing nearly everything the game has to offer, and do it far more quickly than any other frame or weapon loadout. This throws the entire concept of balance right out the window and straight into the sun.

1 hour ago, AkyFenrir said:

1. She has no loot buff... You've a reccurent problem with things being the best. Little tip for you, whatever balance you'll manage to achieve, there will always be one best used by the most dedicated farmers. Punishing them because you don't understand the game is selfish. There's no other word here.

2. There's so many things that can do just that. Yet you mention only Saryn for some reason. Oh yes, you don't like the "best stuff".

3. So saryn doesn't matter here. Wow can't believe it.

4.So never noticed all the people having no problem joining public sorties to get carried away? They don't even move ! But since it's a puzzle stuff and they don't want to learn in that very specific scenario having nothing to do is totally fine! Why is there no request to make 1 terminal by player and force everyone to do their ? This would give gameplay to everyone ? Don't you see a problem in your logic there ?

5. What's your point? this subject is about people not being able to kill stuff, there's plenty to do there... You can make 2 teams running together so one Saryn isn't a problem Here. Yet "she's the best" so nerf again.

6. Well excavators can't be theatened if there's a limbo on it, you don't even need a saryn to kill specific ennemies, a loki can do it, there's litteraly no reason to kill anything so she's not mandatory here either. (you thinking it's the case doesn't make it true)

7. You just said in the first sentence Chroma is the boss farmer? What's going on? Why do you need to pretend saryn is great where she's not ? Why are you so desesperated to try to justify this nerf ?

1. I already went over this about there always being a loot cave not being an excuse to not balance something.
2. ... Because the subject of this discussion is about Saryn?
3. Nothing matters here, but she can still nuke everything and make sure nothing interrupts you while you hack consoles to bypass security, assuming you care enough to extract the coolant cells rather than destroy them.
4. That's a problem with Spy itself. There's only 3 consoles, but you can have a team of 4, which means you'll always having someone who isn't needed. Perhaps we should add a 4th spy room for that reason. Not sure how any of this refutes what I said about Spy, though. You don't need to run specific frames to do them, especially if you've run them enough times to know how it works.
5. The point was to refute your excuse that "she doesn't shine in more than half of the game", stay with me on this.
6. Refer to point 5. She shines in Excavation by mass-slaughtering all of the enemies who are carrying power cells as well as the other mobs who spawned in with them. She's just as good for the mission as Limbo or Frost, but I will say she falls off in usefulness sooner.
7. Bosses are already trivial and Chroma isn't even needed for them except in maybe sortie assassinations. Again, refer to point 5. She shines by nuking the boss room of any adds that spawn, which always makes the fights easier.

1 hour ago, AkyFenrir said:

Invasions, fissures, syndicates missions are regular missions with a little extra. How can you make so little sense ? it's not even an argument! Please stop saying stuff for nothing.

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The point was to refute your excuse that "she doesn't shine in more than half of the game", stay with me on this.

If you make a silly claim by saying that she's not good in more than half the game, I'm going to list as many things I know that proves your statement false.

1 hour ago, AkyFenrir said:

Cetus and fortuna you mean bounties ? SERIOUSLY? Saryn is terrible there it's way too big !

Your argument would make sense if enemies spawned individually in a thin line from all directions around a bounty's objective. However, that is not the case. If you spend any time paying attention to how enemies spawn in the Plains of Eidolon or Orb Vallis, you will notice that enemies always spawn in groups from one direction at a time. They'll either materialize out of sight and run towards you from the south as a group, spawn from drop-pods/teleporters from the east as a group, or arrive from drop-ships to the north again as a group, as an example. I've seen enough Saryns use an operator to void dash towards these spawn areas, slam their 4, before dashing away to do it again.

1 hour ago, AkyFenrir said:

ESO is a nuker gamemode ! thankfully she's good in it!

ESO has been nothing, but a reason for people to justify frames like Saryn being broken. I strongly opposed (E)SO's mechanics when they came out, and I strongly oppose them now. Forcing the players to play broken frames by introducing mission mechanics that require killing tons of mobs in rapidly diminishing time frames wasn't a smart decision by DE, and is probably one of the reasons they don't want to nerf Saryn now.

1 hour ago, AkyFenrir said:

That's why Chroma is good against bosses, he buffs his own damage and you want to nerf him too.

He also buffs allies after the Vex Armor nerf that let him more easily 1shot eidolon. Now everyone can 1-2shot them. Hooray for balance, I guess!

And again, bosses are trivial. Chroma is literally not needed for them, anyone can destroy star chart bosses. The only time he might be needed is in sortie Assassination, but he'd still 1shot most of them with the exception of Lephantis and bosses with invulnerability phases.

1 hour ago, AkyFenrir said:

You want other people enjoyment destroyed for your own.

You have any idea how easily I can flip that around back at you? Playing frames like Saryn destroys the enjoyment for everyone else who plays with them. Not everyone wants to treat their game like Street Cleaner Simulator 2011, because there's someone in the team who can't stop spamming their 4th ability.

Guess what? The game isn't all about you. The balance and health of the game takes a great deal more priority over whether or not you enjoy nuking everything at everyone else's expense.

1 hour ago, AkyFenrir said:

I suppose wanting to add variety instead of wanting everything to be the same might surprise you.

I'm honestly surprised to read that from you. The top frames among high level players right now includes Saryn, and I reckon that trend is going to continue that way as DE adds more content and accessible MR levels. There's no variety to be had if everyone's playing Saryn, Volt, Equinox, or Mesa when there's 40 unique frames in the game.

By nerfing Saryn and the other broken frames, that just might encourage players to actually play something else for a change. Shocking, I know!

1 hour ago, AkyFenrir said:

Pay a very specific attention to the Decay part, that's why i'm telling you you're wrong with your idea (but don't stop there read everything spore related)

If you still think LOS on spore wouldn't completely destroy this skill. You're a troll. A bad troll at that.

It's litteraly one of the skill requiring the most work in the entire game to make it work. You talk about it like a "one button to press to clear map", that's why we're not taking you seriously.

If you can't invest more effort into propagating your spores by hitting several enemies with an LoS restriction rather than 1 like you can right now, that's entirely on you. However, you are blatantly lying if you claim it takes the most work. Most nuker frames tend to build with high range in mind, and spore has 16m base spread range. If you build for 200%+ range, that's easily 32m minimum with a cast range of 120m. In most scenarios, it would take shooting one guy for the spores to hit the entire room, causing the damage to spike up dramatically. The rest of the the time is spent hoping a teammate doesn't bring another nuker to wipe them all out before the spores can keep spreading and scaling its damage.

Edited August 21, 2019 by Pizzarugi