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MrRixter

Can something be done about Saryn?

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1 hour ago, Arcira said:

A simple combo with huge area of effect, low energy costs, no line of sight restriction, no limit on affected enemies, no cooldown, incredible damage scaling/ramp up and the in general as best considered status effects in the game. Might just be me but sounds fundamentally broken and smells a bit like favouritism.

Anyway, eventhough Saryn is somewhat of an extreme case I think there is a general idea behind this. The lack of "difficulty" is a topic constatly mentioned but I´d argue warframe is far from easy if you play the regular way. There are simply ways to bypass any difficulty with certain abilities, weapons or mods. Sometimes this is obviously unintentionally but sometimes not.

In case of Saryn (and Volt) I´m pretty sure it´s absolutely itentionally to make them broken. It´s probably the most efficient approach for developer since you make certain warframes the choice for a specific mission aka the easiest way to "encourage" diversity. From there perspective this is reasonable because they put a lot of effort into creating individual warframes, skins, etc.

 

Anyway I can think of two solutions here:

Increase mission variety. The main issue is quite obvious: There are 40 different warframes already but realistically like 5 relevant game modes. I´m not talking about adding another defend xy style mission type but a new, relevant and sustainable way to play. "New" obviously because otherwise there is no need for an another warframe choice and "relevant" means.. let´s just say loki is kinda broken in (..the actual part of..) spy missions but stealth isn´t really a game defining playstyle in warframe. And of cause "sustainable" because it never becomes core if it will be abandoned after some time.

Alternatively you could make every warframe equally viable which first of all condredicts the point mentioned above and secondly makes the overall design process much more difficult. Also this would need a major system overhaul i.e. not gonna happen.

 

Your opening line highlights exactly why I also maintain the position that we need limitations on our abilities. Both a broken damage system and an unfettered access to such power contributes greatly to our current dilemma.

Saryn has, as someone else put it, the holy trinity of damage types. That description is entirely correct because toxin, viral, and corrosion work beautifully against every faction; there is currently no need for any other damage type, with the exception of slash, and radiation. Electricity only works up until level 100, maybe longer if we're dealing with Corpus.

I do however, disagree with your position about difficulty in the game. It's very possible to clear the starchart without using anything other than Excalibur, a hek, and guandao, as long as you mod them decently.

I'm fairly certain Saryn was the result of a massive oversight. Although now, they can't really do anything about it, since she's become very popular.

I think Disruption is a good start, since you actually have to prepare for the mission, and straight up damage wont cut it for very long.

Currently, equalising the warframes is impossible, since there will always be one who's better than others at specific mission types. The only way we could achieve this is, yes, through a massive overhaul, that could transform the game into something completely different.

I overall, I do agree with you, although it's dis-heartening to realise that reworking the combat and damage system are unlikely to ever happen, and a sizeable portion of the community rejects cool-down mechanics, or any means of toning down their power scale.

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40 minutes ago, (PS4)The1stAzrael said:

and a sizeable portion of the community rejects cool-down mechanics, or any means of toning down their power scale.

There are plenty of games with cd mechanics and a toned down power scale, how about you go play those? Stop trying to make our game like everything else the market has to offer.

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36 minutes ago, Cibyllae said:

There are plenty of games with cd mechanics and a toned down power scale, how about you go play those? Stop trying to make our game like everything else the market has to offer.

Prime example.

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9 minutes ago, Cibyllae said:

There are plenty of games with cd mechanics and a toned down power scale, how about you go play those? Stop trying to make our game like everything else the market has to offer.

The problem is the absurdity of the power level. 

Nerfing and rebalancing are essential to the health of a game, especially those with players interacting with players. This happens across all genres, across games for all ages. Even Pokemon will nerf and tweak things.

Rejecting any and all changes will make the game stagnate and die. 

Saryn has an absurd ammount of power, and its accessible laughibly easy. She has no limitation, no downsides to her power. Nothing to make her even remotely cooperative in a co-op focused game  Even Equinox has to wait or work for a similar level of elimination. She at least has to rely in allies kilking things and killing things herself. Even Equinox has supportive play functions. 

Saryn effectively eliminates the gameplay for the team, and uses her teammates for nothing more than upping the spawnrates, and thus, her kills. She kills through walls, she has no restrictions on her killing abilities. There is no such thing as Line of Sight with her. She has a high range, high output and very low energy costs. She doesn't have to work to be able to blast away every non-Tenno living being. As someone else put it, this is fundamentally broken.

Even Equinox has a constant passive drain on her energy from Maim. Even Equinox has to wait for the time she can detonate her Maim. 

Even most other powerful Frames are limited or hindered by something.

The problem is that Saryn's abilities don't have anything to restrict her in any sense. Abilities like hers should have some sort of counterbalance to them, or, alternatively, her killing ability needs to be toned down. She needs limits.

The other problem is yes, the enemies are weak. Most people can manage to scrape together a build on a decent weapon that'll get us a pretty good ways. They die easily and aren't very smart. 

But killing them shouldn't be as easy as pressing two buttons from the other side of the room, where you can't even see them.

We need a solution that helps both problems. 

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14 minutes ago, (PS4)The1stAzrael said:

Prime example.

How much Xp do you have on Saryn?

Edit: Cause im getting extremely tired of your bull s h i t

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14 minutes ago, Sea_Blue_Stars said:

She needs limits.

She had limits and then people complained . What makes you think the community is going to get it right this time?

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2 hours ago, Sea_Blue_Stars said:

But killing them shouldn't be as easy as pressing two buttons from the other side of the room, where you can't even see them.

Why? Just because a newcomer from well balanced competitive shooter would come and say so?
Warframe is a game about overpowered ancient technology, unlimited fearsome one-frame army if you wish. Being able to eliminate a huge nuber of enemies without engaging them directly is a core gampeplay. Even if you read the description of Saryn provided by Lotus:

Quote

This is Saryn, elusive and deadly.

Saryn is a deadly force on the battlefield. Get down with the sickness, Tenno.

Does the word "elusive" mean something for you? She's designed to be what she is — a perfect flawless killer with decent damage scaling.

 

2 hours ago, Sea_Blue_Stars said:

Even Equinox has supportive play functions.

Even? Do you know that Equinox's main gimmick is being half-dp-half-support? She's literally designed to be a combination of two. She's an exception. That is a bad example.

2 hours ago, Sea_Blue_Stars said:

pressing two buttons

Here again you are lying. Playing Saryn on high levels (lvl. 120+) requires management, maneuvers self-preservation, and, of course a decent build with materials you've been collecting through out the game. You will not do well on ESO without a properly moded frame. You will simply die/run out of energy/loose your stacks.

Indeed, stock Saryn performs well on beginner levels (<40). It's normal, considering her role given by description of this frame. It's normal, considering her damage types.

Before going forward in this discussion I want to see a screenshot of you playing solo/no support on 8th room of ESO with Saryn doing exactly what you described: unstoppable elimination. The condition will be: no support frames in your team and no melee/staticor. If Saryn is as good as you describe her, 8 rooms of ESO without proper teammates and weapons should be a casual walk for you. As you said previously warframe is a time-killer. Hence, I suggest you sacrifice half-an-hour in order to bring up a viable proof of Saryn invincibility what will reanimate this discussion with new indisputable argument. Why do you think?

Let's resume: go on ESO with your Saryn. No support frames in your team. No aoe weapons in your inventory. Complete 8th room. Have much larger dps and kills than your teammates. Take screenshot of used build and inventory, as well as a proof of completion.

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So we nerf Saryn.
Then we nerf Volt
Then Mesa
Gara
Equinox...

So on and so forth, until your noob trap build of Rhino+Arca Plasmor finally manages to outdamage a DPS frame?

Do people not realize that if those frames could not outperform general gunplay there would be 0 reason to play them?

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vor 2 Stunden schrieb Sea_Blue_Stars:

The problem is the absurdity of the power level. 

no... thats not the problem... 

did you ever play a saryn with "this absurd" power level you talk about?

no?

thats because a saryn with this does not exist...

you can build her to deal lot of damage - agree. but mostly for specific situations. and thats exact what this frame is for. like other frame are for other situations.

beside that she never will kill "everything on a blink" like so many repeatly write. 

miasma can deal with lowest level enemies very easy, yes - but that because it's meant to be used in high level missions to strip enemies to make them more attackable while they lost armor, health and be stunned for seconds.

spores already have so much restriction that you will have all hand on to make them go in circles so your team will have enough to do.

more restrictions will make the frame and her powers unusable. like ember already. 

thats not balancing. thats destruction. and that will never help any game - this has already destroyed many game in the past.

yes, saryn is not for enemies under lvl 30. may thats the case why she is farmed on sedna - a planet with the highest power level up to 60.

like a lot of other frames saryn is a perfect balanced frame for playing high level content without frustration.

you line "absurdity of power level" just point out a single thing: you have absolute no idea what you are talking about... ( do you really understand the mechanics of warframe? ) but you want to destroy a real good frame.

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2 hours ago, (PS4)The1stAzrael said:

I'm fairly certain Saryn was the result of a massive oversight. Although now, they can't really do anything about it, since she's become very popular.

I'm fairly certain Saryn is working as intended since Pablo reworked her and made her exactly as she is now, still strong. 

2 hours ago, (PS4)The1stAzrael said:

The only way we could achieve this is, yes, through a massive overhaul, that could transform the game into something completely different.

Yeah so alienate current player base, everyone who ever invested in Saryn, bought skins for her, etc. consider her a main, and also everyone else who isn't maining her but understands her purpose and role in terms of fodder-clearing DPS and use her for that, and then use other warframes to do other things like Chroma to kill Eidolons, just to satisfy complaints. Eliminate one good tool and make it useless just to appease some people that do not understand her purpose.

1 hour ago, Sea_Blue_Stars said:

Nerfing and rebalancing are essential to the health of a game, especially those with players interacting with players

Subjective. What some see as imbalance. Some see as fine and working as intended, each frame fulfilling their intended role. Some warframes are virtually immortal, with super high effective HP. Some are invisible all the time. Some can literally enter another realm and avoid taking damage altogether. You can interact with a Saryn in defense maps or ESO by giving her energy, buffing her damage etc.

 

1 hour ago, Sea_Blue_Stars said:

Saryn effectively eliminates the gameplay for the team, and uses her teammates for nothing more than upping the spawnrates, and thus, her kills. She kills through walls, she has no restrictions on her killing abilities. There is no such thing as Line of Sight with her. She has a high range, high output and very low energy costs. She doesn't have to work to be able to blast away every non-Tenno living being. As someone else put it, this is fundamentally broken.

Even Equinox has a constant passive drain on her energy from Maim. Even Equinox has to wait for the time she can detonate her Maim. 

You all will call for nerfs on Equinox shortly after you are done with nerfing Saryn. I've seen even some folks mention Mag is OP (only thing this person doesn't mention is Oberon, yes the Oberon that can make his team unkillable and make the game boring for all team mates as all challenge and threat of failure is removed, the Oberon that can nuke a lot of the map, CC them with radiation, and solo kill eidolons, etc. yet Oberon is not mentioned by him to be nerfed, but everything else, because Oberon is his main - of course he wants his main to shine, and nerf all the rest for that)

But I digress. So you talk about nerf the whole game until everything is equal. Let entertain this hypothetical game. When that day comes, and that is achieved, I will ask: Why level up? Why farm anything? Why bother with mods? Why MR? For what? It's all the same. All cosmetic differences. No real difference or diversity of power and gameplay, just an illusion of it. Everything is the same, from the day I create an account, to the day I see a meaningless MR26 or whatever number we reach at that point.

The solution is to make more game modes where DPS frames become less relevant and other types of frames with CC or tanks or stealth are relevant.  Such modes should also be more  rewarding in proportion to the hassle or stress involved. This can be done by tweaking enemy damage and ability resistances and giving them smarter AI too since if they are going to be alive longer, they better be interesting and not boring bullet sponges. But if players do not like these difficult modes, they still can fall back on their favorite easier modes and take a Saryn / (insert favorite nuker here) to some good old nuking at some map to vent their anger or satisfy power fantasies. You don't need the entire game to be one experience.  The game has some of this currently with modes like Disruption, Arbitration, Low Energy Sorties and Energy Drain Nightmare, Orb Mothers and Eidolon hunts where map wide nukers are less prevalent. For people desiring to see less of Saryn, perhaps go there if you hate map nukers so much. Problem is some of you see Hydron and other low level content  as the beginning and end of warframe experience. Might as well rename the game "Hydron". Or perhaps you actually can't handle the restrictions and inconveniences the other modes put on you, you still want to feel OP and have power trips, but your main isn't Saryn, you are salty whatever it is you main can't be played the way you want and just want the entire game nerfed to your level. Basically a selfish game design approach.

Nerfing the DPS frames to the ground or rebalancing the entire game to be a uniform difficulty experience with just some flavor and setting differences is NOT the solution. You kill the game even faster. Supposing the Devs actually listen to you and overhaul the game. New players find out the start to end of game is just the same thing against more or less same AI but with different Iron Man wannabe costumes with so-called different powers that are actually just cosmetic variations of 1) Single Target nuke. 2) DR / survival skill 3) heal skill 4) Small AOE nuke. Guess what? Boring. Tried one frame, tried them all. Watch people quit even faster. Heck, it's already a problem right NOW. I have friends who quit exactly because they see no point farming new warframes after a certain point, cos the OG frames do their roles very solidly and the recent releases just get a "meh" out of them. I tell them about the newer frames since PoE and they will just refer me back to an older frame they got from star chart bosses that can do the same thing. Frames released with cosmetic/thematic reskins of a pre-existing mechanic. People who don't care about cosmetics see through it and just hand wave farming that as a waste of time. I am repeating myself at this point but you do what you have to do when people make the same repetitive arguments at you. 

 

... Even Dark Souls allows me to level up and one-shot enemies of lower levels to allow faster farming.

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13 minutes ago, Xepthrichros said:

The solution is to make more game modes where DPS frames become less relevant and other types of frames with CC or tanks or stealth are relevant.

These modes already exist. Moreover, they make more than half of the gameplay. A person who is taking dps everywhere is inefficient. Pure DPS is very limited.

13 minutes ago, Xepthrichros said:

uch modes should also be more  rewarding in proportion to the hassle or stress involved.

The whole reward system should be entirely reworked. At current state there's no scaling, no need do go further, no need to struggle with higher levels. It's simply inconsistent as it is.

Even new game modes as disruption still don't have proper rewards. There's no need to go where after you collected all mods, and materials to build Wisp and a couple of weapons.

 

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Il y a 11 heures, Sea_Blue_Stars a dit :

They were literally saying MR doesn't mean anything but that you've had a lot of stuff. 

This victim mentality you've adopted about this situation is also confusing. No one and nothing is under attack. People are debating on the balance issues caused by a frame and playstyle. 

Also: Being passive aggressive isn't a great way to make a point. 

I'm not passive aggressive here, the one I quoted LITERRALY derailed the subject on elitism ! This has nothing to do with the current subject. If he has a problem with elitism he should go on one of those countless elitist complaints post.

People see agressivity everywhere these days, since you're the one using words like "toxic" i'm not surprised you can't handle it.

Il y a 7 heures, (PS4)The1stAzrael a dit :

1. While your statement is indeed correct, it does contain some flaws. Even though I thoroughly dislike the lacklustre enemy AI, I'll still kill them whenever I see them, whether I gain affinity or not, because that is a core part of the game. Killing enemies to get more resources and items, so you can go and grind the next item. It's what makes the grind bearable; so when there are no enemies to kill, either out of necessity or boredom, you're left with nothing to do but go afk. Yes, you still get the resources if your team-mate kills the enemies, but how much enjoyment do you gather from waiting for someone to finish nuking? Heck, most of the examples you provided still require you to actively engage in killing brain-dead crewmen, eidolons, or random grineer.

2.  understand the need for nukes, in order to make getting through the slog (I myself, have frequently used Volt to just get through missions I dislike), 

3. The wants and ideas of others are as important as your own, but if you can't be bothered to voice those ideals or opinions, then you really are in no position to complain about the outcome of the event. These forums aren't hidden, and everyone has a free voice here, why, you could say any number of preposterous things, and you'd probably find someone who'd agree with you.

4. When it comes to public groups, I opt to just let it go; it makes everything so much easier. However, when the balance of the game comes into question, I will undoubtedly say what I think needs to be said, because whatever happens would end up affecting me, regardless of whether I play solo or not.

5 organising a group through recruiting chat is a laughable suggestion, since it's become overrun with people looking to do tridolons (especially after the day and night cycles changes), relics or farming. I've tried gathering groups for very specific missions, and each one resulted in failure. Running missions with clanmates? My clan has six members, all of them are my friends or mutual friends, but now, none of them log on, and I've invested to much to just up and leave. After having spent hundreds of hours in public groups, with a fair amount of delightful (or strange) encounters with randoms, I just find solo to be very isolated. It's a lot of fun, to occasionally "handshake" with a random, or have a dance off at extraction.

6. Frankly, I think both sides are being very abrasive towards one another, due to a loss of respect. To the Saryn + nuke fans, they may believe this side is being very restrictive, whiny, or or just needlessly destructive towards something they love. To the anti-nuke crowd, they may think the nuke fans are being equally whiny, destructive, or restrictive. There are times when I'll be re-reading something I've posted, and I'll realise I was being a bit of a prick towards the person I was arguing with, until I come across some denigrating comment, or a part where they're clearly talking down to me.

 

 

1. If you don't know the best way to grind ressources is trough Survival ... Where Saryn isn't even a "good" thing there. My point is : I reached a point where i want to limit my time spent to grind ressources by going with the best option available. Saryn isn't even there, it's just a way to go quickly trough defenses. I don't particularly like a mode where there's so long down times between fights, and since i'm farming over and over Hydron with gear to formate, I can't even imagine spending 3 to 4times that time with barely playable stuff.

2. They're really cool, it cut down my Hydron time by 3 to 4 depending the team if there's none.

3. Here's the thing, I don't think a correct argument has less value than mines. However when it's about destroying a convenience, while there are ways to avoid it (and not requiring nerfs). Who's the bad one here ? In my opinion ruining other players gameplay because you don't like it (even if you can actively avoid it) is worse than suggesting to go premade. => one wants to deny gameplay, the other offer a solution that can be done now. Whatever the subject i'll always side against gameplay reducing nerfs.

4. So let's say we Nerf nukers, we can't use them solo either anymore ? Would affect us a lot. There's one obvious point about "difficulty" in the game. Whenever it's added by DE complaints are flying "too hard and stuff". I'm not of of those people but, as mentionned by dev themselves they want an accessible content everyone can enjoy. If it starts to get challenging people will go off. I'll add here i've no idea how this change would affect the game in term of players, it's complete speculation.

5. Well I suppose it depends what you're looking to do. If you're going for unpopular missions it'll be hard for sure. For hydron, ESO and so on it's relatively easy (and that's where nukers shine anyway). I do get you don't want to leave your inactive clan, it's on you if you're not joining an active clan. Gotta say i'm in a big clan and can't really play in clan. Since you don't want to quit, maybe you should ask the rights to your friend so you could join an alliance to play with other players ?

6. I won't deny it, it's true. As stated earlier, destroying options is always bad when there's options available to avoid nukers (it requires some "work"... )

 

Il y a 7 heures, Arcira a dit :

1. A simple combo with huge area of effect, low energy costs, no line of sight restriction, no limit on affected enemies, no cooldown, incredible damage scaling/ramp up and the in general as best considered status effects in the game. Might just be me but sounds fundamentally broken and smells a bit like favouritism.

2. Anyway, eventhough Saryn is somewhat of an extreme case I think there is a general idea behind this. The lack of "difficulty" is a topic constatly mentioned but I´d argue warframe is far from easy if you play the regular way. There are simply ways to bypass any difficulty with certain abilities, weapons or mods. Sometimes this is obviously unintentionally but sometimes not.

3. In case of Saryn (and Volt) I´m pretty sure it´s absolutely itentionally to make them broken. It´s probably the most efficient approach for developer since you make certain warframes the choice for a specific mission aka the easiest way to "encourage" diversity. From there perspective this is reasonable because they put a lot of effort into creating individual warframes, skins, etc.

 

 Anyway I can think of two solutions here:

4. Increase mission variety. The main issue is quite obvious: There are 40 different warframes already but realistically like 5 relevant game modes. I´m not talking about adding another defend xy style mission type but a new, relevant and sustainable way to play. "New" obviously because otherwise there is no need for an another warframe choice and "relevant" means.. let´s just say loki is kinda broken in (..the actual part of..) spy missions but stealth isn´t really a game defining playstyle in warframe. And of cause "sustainable" because it never becomes core if it will be abandoned after some time.

5. Alternatively you could make every warframe equally viable which first of all condredicts the point mentioned above and secondly makes the overall design process much more difficult. Also this would need a major system overhaul i.e. not gonna happen.

 

1. Never seen a saryn playing spore in defense, at this point any nuker is the same. Suggesting there's a problem with ESO, the only place spore is really played, is kinda... unexpected.

2. Most of the times, dev would think of a concept but not in every way. Player will scan everything and develop a meta to do it as fast as possible. There's not much that can be done at this point, even if you nerf nukers some players like op won't be able to kill stuff, nukers aren't the only anti play mechanics in the game.

3. You've missed so many nukers here, sad you know only 2 :)  And of course there are better options for missions types. Funny nobody request nerf about "spy" warframes. Oh right, most of people are waiting for the one who knows to do it and don't complain about it. Funny right ?

4. Let's See: Capture/Sabotage/rescue/defense/mobile defense/survival/exterminate/spy/assassination/ESO/Arbitration/defefection/disruption. Nukers are a problem for what 2 out of 12 modes? ok. 

5. If everything is the same, everything is boring. It's an obvious fact... There's no way a Loki can be as viable as a Saryn anyway ? and nukers are relatively equivalent. Don't get your point here ? 

Il y a 4 heures, (PS4)The1stAzrael a dit :

1.Saryn has, as someone else put it, the holy trinity of damage types. That description is entirely correct because toxin, viral, and corrosion work beautifully against every faction; there is currently no need for any other damage type, with the exception of slash, and radiation. Electricity only works up until level 100, maybe longer if we're dealing with Corpus.

2. I do however, disagree with your position about difficulty in the game. It's very possible to clear the starchart without using anything other than Excalibur, a hek, and guandao, as long as you mod them decently.

3. I'm fairly certain Saryn was the result of a massive oversight. Although now, they can't really do anything about it, since she's become very popular.

4.i  think Disruption is a good start, since you actually have to prepare for the mission, and straight up damage wont cut it for very long.

5. Currently, equalising the warframes is impossible, since there will always be one who's better than others at specific mission types. The only way we could achieve this is, yes, through a massive overhaul, that could transform the game into something completely different.

6. overall, I do agree with you, although it's dis-heartening to realise that reworking the combat and damage system are unlikely to ever happen, and a sizeable portion of the community rejects cool-down mechanics, or any means of toning down their power scale.

1. Except it isn't good against infested past a certain level too.

2. That's totally true, thank you to point it out.

3. Ember was popular sooo... 

4. hmm'yeah I suppose.

5. Let's say for argument sake: the game get "balanced" a dps frame should not be equivalent to a furtive or support or tanky one. Or they're all the same and there's no abilities anymore.

6. They're working on melee 3.0 ... We'll see after that maybe ?

Il y a 3 heures, Cibyllae a dit :

There are plenty of games with cd mechanics and a toned down power scale, how about you go play those? Stop trying to make our game like everything else the market has to offer.

We're passive agressive to suggest that ...

Il y a 3 heures, Sea_Blue_Stars a dit :

1. The problem is the absurdity of the power level. 

2. Nerfing and rebalancing are essential to the health of a game, especially those with players interacting with players. This happens across all genres, across games for all ages. Even Pokemon will nerf and tweak things.

3. Rejecting any and all changes will make the game stagnate and die. 

4. Saryn has an absurd ammount of power, and its accessible laughibly easy. She has no limitation, no downsides to her power. Nothing to make her even remotely cooperative in a co-op focused game  Even Equinox has to wait or work for a similar level of elimination. She at least has to rely in allies kilking things and killing things herself. Even Equinox has supportive play functions. 

5. Saryn effectively eliminates the gameplay for the team, and uses her teammates for nothing more than upping the spawnrates, and thus, her kills. She kills through walls, she has no restrictions on her killing abilities. There is no such thing as Line of Sight with her. She has a high range, high output and very low energy costs. She doesn't have to work to be able to blast away every non-Tenno living being. As someone else put it, this is fundamentally broken.

6. Even Equinox has a constant passive drain on her energy from Maim. Even Equinox has to wait for the time she can detonate her Maim. 

7. Even most other powerful Frames are limited or hindered by something.

8. The problem is that Saryn's abilities don't have anything to restrict her in any sense. Abilities like hers should have some sort of counterbalance to them, or, alternatively, her killing ability needs to be toned down. She needs limits.

9. The other problem is yes, the enemies are weak. Most people can manage to scrape together a build on a decent weapon that'll get us a pretty good ways. They die easily and aren't very smart. 

10.But killing them shouldn't be as easy as pressing two buttons from the other side of the room, where you can't even see them.

11We need a solution that helps both problems. 

1. It's a one sided opinion i'm not sharing.

2. That's why saryn got buffed in her next rework so now she has to use spores to be effective... You know running around. 

3. I'm not rejecting "any" changes. I'm rejecting poor thought nerfs.

4. So you mean that staying on a single fix position and waiting for other people to raise your stacking dps is "better" than saryn? Equinox is easier to play. Point is Saryn is more active, that's why we play her for defense (exclusively, people like op thing she can do "everything" xD)

5. Any nukers do that. That's why we say it's stupid to go after saryn. Going for a boring long succession of nerfs request isn't really what i'm looking for.

6. Yeah and Saryn has to raise and maintain spores. Can't be done in defense, and there's other nukers than equinox. It's a reccurent problem to see people don't even know every nukers here, some being even better.

7. Saryn is kinda weak and need to be proactive to maintain her spore. Equinox need to wait to press a button. I'd say saryn is harder, yet you claim the opposite?

8. Limits were made to Ember, yes i'm bringing it back because it's relevant here. Any suggestion made against saryn would get her like Ember. It's not like your stucked forever with a Saryn on your group is it ? Or you don't like to be unable to use weapons you're adding forma to level up? (Are you even at this point ?)

9. There are so many overpowered stuff after nukers. A beginner would never be able to shoot something if there's a profficient farmer in the game anyway. What are you hoping for ?

10. I'm pretty sure you can do that just fine with one button for starchart. Knowing about what you want to nerf would go a long way to get you more credible.

11. You need to stop farming Hydron and look at the game :)

il y a une heure, TeaHawk a dit :

1. Why? Just because a newcomer from well balanced competitive shooter would come and say so?
Warframe is a game about overpowered ancient technology, unlimited fearsome one-frame army if you wish. Being able to eliminate a huge nuber of enemies without engaging them directly is a core gampeplay. Even if you read the description of Saryn provided by Lotus:

Does the word "elusive" mean something for you? She's designed to be what she is — a perfect flawless killer with decent damage scaling.

 

2. Even? Do you know that Equinox's main gimmick is being half-dp-half-support? She's literally designed to be a combination of two. She's an exception. That is a bad example.

3. Here again you are lying. Playing Saryn on high levels (lvl. 120+) requires management, maneuvers self-preservation, and, of course a decent build with materials you've been collecting through out the game. You will not do well on ESO without a properly moded frame. You will simply die/run out of energy/loose your stacks.

4. Indeed, stock Saryn performs well on beginner levels (<40). It's normal, considering her role given by description of this frame. It's normal, considering her damage types.

5. Before going forward in this discussion I want to see a screenshot of you playing solo/no support on 8th room of ESO with Saryn doing exactly what you described: unstoppable elimination. The condition will be: no support frames in your team and no melee/staticor. If Saryn is as good as you describe her, 8 rooms of ESO without proper teammates and weapons should be a casual walk for you. As you said previously warframe is a time-killer. Hence, I suggest you sacrifice half-an-hour in order to bring up a viable proof of Saryn invincibility what will reanimate this discussion with new indisputable argument. Why do you think?

6. Let's resume: go on ESO with your Saryn. No support frames in your team. No aoe weapons in your inventory. Complete 8th room. Have much larger dps and kills than your teammates. Take screenshot of used build and inventory, as well as a proof of completion.

1. Yep, you're right.

2. Well I do, most of people here don't know the game.

3. Of course it does, they don't play Saryn though. They just "suffer" from her in low lvl defenses.

4. Ideally, Saryn should be terrible to LVL <80 to make those whiners happy...

5. Done that too, some don't even have her. 

6. We both know this will never happen ;)

il y a une heure, Ver1dian a dit :

So we nerf Saryn.
Then we nerf Volt
Then Mesa
Gara
Equinox...

So on and so forth, until your noob trap build of Rhino+Arca Plasmor finally manages to outdamage a DPS frame?

Do people not realize that if those frames could not outperform general gunplay there would be 0 reason to play them?

I would resume it like this. They do realize that, they don't care, they want to be competitive with the most awful loadout versus optimized saryns. That's most of the subject.

Or "makes the game too easy" well, saryn isn't the problem anyway. Warframes aren't even the problem. Those people have no idea what they're talking about. Expecting us who do know to get our gameplay destroyed.

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32 minutes ago, AkyFenrir said:

I would resume it like this. They do realize that, they don't care, they want to be competitive with the most awful loadout versus optimized saryns.

I have a couple of thoughts to add:

This game has a lot of hidden mechanics, non-linear progression and huge gap between veterans and beginners. I may understand frustration of a new player dealing with a well optimized veteran, or even another new player, who has come to meta. However, what really hurts me is that instead of learning the game some decide to grow willingfuly ignorant.
Instead of going forward, they're eager to drag everybody on their lows. Instead of asking for help with builds and advancing forward, they decide to change the game to fit their appetite for the challenge.

But the real challenge in this game is not clearing the map with 1000 perfect headshots while flying like a jet-fighter.

The real challenge here is progression, creativity and efficient management.

The real challenge starts when you find a new wonderful way of using your gear, but you always need more to reach perfection. The real challenge starts, when you discover the meaning of optimization. The real challenge starts when you begin to understand what every frame has its own role and a perfect way to use it. The real challenge starts when after hours of building you discover a flaw, that makes your rethink the whole concept. We real challenge starts when you understand what this game is about.
Don't work around it. Accept it, face it and go forward. If you don't like it —  you will never get everything this brilliant game has to share. That's just a matter of fact a cruel indisputable God-signed truth you have to acknowledge.

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Let's make Saryn unavailable for public and group play? It seems to me that we will not come to anything, because people just do not understand and do not listen to each other.

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Il y a 1 heure, zhellon a dit :

Let's make Saryn unavailable for public and group play? It seems to me that we will not come to anything, because people just do not understand and do not listen to each other.

Yeah sure, why rushing to one side when you can balance an argument right ? There's no way i would accept this fake solution.

Let's be clear here just for you.

One side who don't know about the game want something.

The other group who know the game bring arguments.

They argue that the game should change to accomodate their own preference (gameplay/difficulty) and I say they should play something else if they want a different game, if they like the game there are ways to avoid nukes without being this extreme anyway.

You're not listening for people defending Saryn and nukers in general. Don't criticize people doing what you're doing yourself. 

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30 минут назад, AkyFenrir сказал:

You're not listening for people defending Saryn and nukers in general. Don't criticize people doing what you're doing yourself.

First, give us a sufficient opinion to consider. There was an opinion that Saryn is not so strong - I denied it with screenshots from the game. Now only the view is considered that players should be able to skip game modes with certain frames, because that's the point of the game (the point of the game is not to play. You hear yourself? ) Warframes must provide unique mechanics. Well, let this mechanic is scaling AOE damage. But I'm sorry, 50 meters. Don't you think that's a bit much? Now people offer Ember as an example. And you know that Ember with rework only changed the build and nothing else? You're still burning low levels within a 20 meter radius.

I just do not see the point in this dispute, as opponents do not take into account any arguments, but only send to play alone. And if you think that I'm new to this game - you are mistaken. I'm a person who already has nothing to do and I played on nuke frames only in ESO, because ESO 8 waves is simply impossible to pass otherwise, as the game itself supports AOE damage, not manual killing. It's not even a challenge, because a lot depends not on how I play, but on how nice the map is generated.

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vor 4 Minuten schrieb zhellon:

Now people offer Ember as an example. And you know that Ember with rework only changed the build and nothing else? You're still burning low levels within a 20 meter radius.

wow... thats... 0o

ember was a frame for high level content. you was able to survive and kill your enemies unless you get enough energy.

now you can only kill them to lvl 15... which is basically 3 planets of the whole system. thats shall be better? why? because a few people don't want her power?

the "rework" kills the frame. as already mentioned: how many embers do you see out there? 1 in 6 month playing? isn't exactly a prove of you "but ember is still good" don't you think?

now you want saryn become the next ember...

which next? equinox? oberon? whats than? 

cripple frame isn't the way.

just improve the damage system instead of killing frames, weapons and pressing all fun out of the game....

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6 минут назад, (PS4)NewcastleDisease сказал:

wow... thats... 0o

ember was a frame for high level content. you was able to survive and kill your enemies unless you get enough energy.

now you can only kill them to lvl 15... which is basically 3 planets of the whole system. thats shall be better? why? because a few people don't want her power?

the "rework" kills the frame. as already mentioned: how many embers do you see out there? 1 in 6 month playing? isn't exactly a prove of you "but ember is still good" don't you think?

now you want saryn become the next ember...

which next? equinox? oberon? whats than?

cripple frame isn't the way.

just improve the damage system instead of killing frames, weapons and pressing all fun out of the game....

I didn't say ember was good, I said nothing had changed. When Ember was good at high-level content, this high level was 40-50, and sorties were still new. And Ember was never good against armor. I'm sure there are people who are really passionate about Ember and can build it against level sorties against enemies without armor. But it is not required because there is Saryn.

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il y a 13 minutes, zhellon a dit :

First, give us a sufficient opinion to consider. There was an opinion that Saryn is not so strong - I denied it with screenshots from the game. Now only the view is considered that players should be able to skip game modes with certain frames, because that's the point of the game (the point of the game is not to play. You hear yourself? ) Warframes must provide unique mechanics. Well, let this mechanic is scaling AOE damage. But I'm sorry, 50 meters. Don't you think that's a bit much? Now people offer Ember as an example. And you know that Ember with rework only changed the build and nothing else? You're still burning low levels within a 20 meter radius.

I just do not see the point in this dispute, as opponents do not take into account any arguments, but only send to play alone. And if you think that I'm new to this game - you are mistaken. I'm a person who already has nothing to do and I played on nuke frames only in ESO, because ESO 8 waves is simply impossible to pass otherwise, as the game itself supports AOE damage, not manual killing. It's not even a challenge, because a lot depends not on how I play, but on how nice the map is generated.

I've done it multiple times. If you didn't read all the post and assumed my arguments are wrong it's not even debating. Exacty what i said before.

Going on this "skip" thingie is ridiculous, they're playing the game. And as I stated earlier, it's funny people keep complaining about nukers in defense and NEVER  complain about the Spy meta (Oh right, being afk there is fine i guess ?). Yes warframe must provide unique mechanics. What's the point of a warframe ultimate if you can do the same thing with a weapon ? You won't all aoe weapon gone too? You want melee gone ? Problem are not nukers. 

 

Oh yeah Ember. a very good CC warframe for endgame without CC, without range, without dps. Pretending Ember is totally or something that we should aspire too is soooo out of touch.

I think you don't know what you're talking about. The way you suggest ember is fine is a perfect proof for that. There are people who never learn mechanics outside of shooting and take build from internet. It's not how you now the game. 

You've nothing to do? How is it relevant ? You would have stuff appearing by magic if you get saryn nerfed ? (little spoiler no you won't). 

ESO can be done without nukers, you would need to be skilled for that, thing what you're going to do.

Can you explain how a mode designed for nukers is an argument against nukers ? 

People keep playing eso everyday by the way think about them ?

Yeah sure it's easy to find yourself excuses to go nuker whenever it benefits you and ask tho ruin them whenever you don't need nukers anymore.

Arguments you said ? oh no "opinion" makes sense

il y a 1 minute, (PS4)NewcastleDisease a dit :

just improve the damage system instead of killing frames, weapons and pressing all fun out of the game....

.they would have to think critically to get to that kind of demand. Seeing something and reacting to it is faster sadly.

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vor 9 Minuten schrieb zhellon:

I didn't say ember was good, I said nothing had changed. When Ember was good at high-level content, this high level was 40-50, and sorties were still new. And Ember was never good against armor. I'm sure there are people who are really passionate about Ember and can build it against level sorties against enemies without armor. But it is not required because there is Saryn.

ember was really good against all lvl enemies - because the flames burn them, stun them, you had time to kill the enemies in melee or with your weapons. exactly what you can still do with saryn. thats why many switch to saryn - because the frame isn't broken like ember is. you can play with saryn on high level - while ember will lay on the floor on anything over 30.

now you want to cut that. and then? 

which frame we are allowed to use in high level games? ember and banshee already killed, many frames are not able to survive on higher levels. saryn, equinox, volt, oberon and so many other are on your list to kill them.

so in the end anyone will use a rhino or what?

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il y a 11 minutes, zhellon a dit :

I didn't say ember was good, I said nothing had changed. When Ember was good at high-level content, this high level was 40-50, and sorties were still new. And Ember was never good against armor. I'm sure there are people who are really passionate about Ember and can build it against level sorties against enemies without armor. But it is not required because there is Saryn.

You're going on the wrong side.

Suggesting Ember was bad is wrong, if you didn't play at the time (she had 5 nerfs to get where she's now thanks to people like you by the way) . Suggesting a broken warframe isn't required because we got her replacement isn't an argument. It's just trolling people who liked Ember like me at this point. If you think Saryn is good against Flesh, you clearly proved multiple times now you don't know how damage work in the game.

Funny to see you pretend Saryn is the only viable option to play High level. Why do you talk about high level if you never done it ? You love to talk about a lot of stuff you don't know ! (and you think you're right ;)

 

Removing every aoe of the game would make it a totally different boring game (there are a ton of those out there by the way. (There's one really cool starting with a A if you want xD)

 

 

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1 hour ago, zhellon said:

But I'm sorry, 50 meters. Don't you think that's a bit much?

That's pathetically small in open world maps.

But I forgot the game we are talking about here is called "Hydron". Not "Warframe". No modes except defense on one small tile exist, and everything should be balanced around one mode only :clem:

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1 hour ago, zhellon said:

First, give us a sufficient opinion to consider.

It already was given by many. Instead of trying to refute arguments you ignored them. Once it does not fit, you just pretend you did not see it. It is not discussion, it's not debate.

1 hour ago, zhellon said:

 Now only the view is considered that players should be able to skip game modes

This is a blatant lie. You are lying. Nobody said that. The way you're trying to deviate arguments is nothing but bullhsitting.
 

1 hour ago, zhellon said:

Now people offer Ember as an example. And you know that Ember with rework only changed the build and nothing else? You're still burning low levels within a 20 meter radius.

I am sorry, but you don't seem to understand what exactly are you taking about.

The worst thing about you, is that you don't understand why this game is loved. Why we keep returing where. You seem to come from life-service game like Overwatch with the idea of balance viable for competitive shooter. This is not what this game is about.

Your hellbent ignorance makes this conversation pointless. It's really sad to see how narrow-minded players have grown lately.
 

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4 hours ago, AkyFenrir said:

1. Never seen a saryn playing spore in defense, at this point any nuker is the same. Suggesting there's a problem with ESO, the only place spore is really played, is kinda... unexpected.

2. Most of the times, dev would think of a concept but not in every way. Player will scan everything and develop a meta to do it as fast as possible. There's not much that can be done at this point, even if you nerf nukers some players like op won't be able to kill stuff, nukers aren't the only anti play mechanics in the game.

3. You've missed so many nukers here, sad you know only 2 🙂 And of course there are better options for missions types. Funny nobody request nerf about "spy" warframes. Oh right, most of people are waiting for the one who knows to do it and don't complain about it. Funny right ?

4. Let's See: Capture/Sabotage/rescue/defense/mobile defense/survival/exterminate/spy/assassination/ESO/Arbitration/defefection/disruption. Nukers are a problem for what 2 out of 12 modes? ok. 

5. If everything is the same, everything is boring. It's an obvious fact... There's no way a Loki can be as viable as a Saryn anyway ? and nukers are relatively equivalent. Don't get your point here ?

1.) Arguing about wether or not Saryn´s kit is overpowered is kinda redundant don´t you think? The topic should be is this a problem or not and because of the way warframe is structured I think there isn´t really a viable alternative.

2.) Maybe maybe not. However I´d assume the major rework for Volt and Saryn around the same time ESO was introduced are supposed to encourage player to use them. Also the Ember changes were around this time as well suggesting the actual reason for the nerfs is they want to make sure she isn´t good in star chart clear and eso at the same time (deversity). But that´s just speculation on my side.

3.) Since this topic is mainly about Saryn I´m trying to limit myself. Otherwise this would escalate into dissertation rather than a statement.

4.) I´ll try to clarify a bit more. This is specifically not about mission types but about playstyles e.g. defend xy, kill as fast as possible, survive/endurance. While there are a lot of missions most of them require the same setup. As strange as it sounds adding new ways to play warfame is probably the easiest way to solve the problem.

5.) Equal doesn´t mean identical. Probably one of the most challanging things in video games and and most developer prefer the much more easy way one tool for one task. There isn´t really a point in discussing this in games like warframe. Especially with things like static kits this is impossible without severely limiting the latidue of design.

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9 минут назад, AkyFenrir сказал:
Going on this "skip" thingie is ridiculous, they're playing the game. And as I stated earlier, it's funny people keep complaining about nukers in defense and NEVER complain about the Spy meta (Oh right, being afk there is fine i guess ?). Yes warframe must provide unique mechanics. What's the point of a warframe ultimate if you can do the same thing with a weapon ? You won't all aoe weapon gone too? You want melee gone ? Problem are not nukers.

What's the point of a weapon if we have a warframe that kills everything within a 50-70 meter radius? We need to find a balance. Keep in mind that weapons cannot do damage through walls (at least most samples). Just the ability to act independently of you, that is, you have the opportunity to inflict additional damage or go to another part of the map, leaving the enemies to die. The problem is that people don't think about it. Either nuck the whole map or nothing.

17 минут назад, AkyFenrir сказал:

ESO can be done without nukers, you would need to be skilled for that, thing what you're going to do.

I take such accusations very calmly. Take Loki, put the "solo" mode and show a really good game.

15 минут назад, (PS4)NewcastleDisease сказал:

which frame we are allowed to use in high level games?

You can play anything after level 200. It is now considered a high level and Saryn damage there doesn't matter, you only cut the armor and kill with operator mines. We are talking about normal content. The normal content is in the range of 1-100 levels. Ember has a problem with it, but it was before. Remember when exactly there was a sortie and when it was nerfed Ember. Banshee same always crave the only for one button,.

21 минуту назад, (PS4)NewcastleDisease сказал:
ember and banshee already killed, many frames are not able to survive on higher levels. already killed, many frames are not able to survive on higher levels. saryn, equinox, volt, oberon and so many other are on your list to kill them.

I already wrote, you can not kill them. Either they have to get a weaker range or they have to be retrained. If not, they will be killed by the new content. If not, you will not see anything new in the game, because the mobs just will not reach you. The choice is yours. The rewards in this game don't really matter because you simply don't need anything other than saryn, which is overly effective in most NORMAL content.

13 минут назад, AkyFenrir сказал:
Funny to see you pretend Saryn is the only viable option to play High level. Why do you talk about high level if you never done it ? You love to talk about a lot of stuff you don't know ! (and you think you're right 😉

revenant is the best option for playing at a high level. I don't understand why you concluded that I think saryn is the best candidate. If by high level you mean a sortie, it can be passed by the operator, I already wrote about it. I describe the problem as excessive efficiency that hinders the game. I wrote it several times. How can I write this more clearly?

19 минут назад, AkyFenrir сказал:
Suggesting Ember was bad is wrong, if you didn't play at the time (she had 5 nerfs to get where she's now thanks to people like you by the way) . Suggesting a broken warframe isn't required because we got her replacement isn't an argument. It's just trolling people who liked Ember like me at this point. If you think Saryn is good against Flesh, you clearly proved multiple times now you don't know how damage work in the game.

I didn't really play it. But we do not consider Ember as a CC frame here. She's never been a good nukers above low levels.

38 минут назад, AkyFenrir сказал:

Removing every aoe of the game would make it a totally different boring game

But we can't make fun gameplay if enemies die outside the walls.

9 минут назад, Xepthrichros сказал:

That's pathetically small in open world maps.

But I forgot the game we are talking about here is called "Hydron". Not "Warframe". No modes except defense on one small tile exist, and everything should be balanced around one mode only :clem:

This only confirms my words that the new content can kill the nukers. You think this is good?

7 минут назад, TeaHawk сказал:
It already was given by many. Instead of trying to refute arguments you ignored them. Once it does not fit, you just pretend you did not see it. It is not discussion, it's not debate.
8 минут назад, TeaHawk сказал:

I am sorry, but you don't seem to understand what exactly are you taking about.

How am I supposed to answer that? I can only answer one question.

7 минут назад, TeaHawk сказал:
This is a lie. You are lying. Nobody said that. The way you're trying to deviate arguments is nothing but bullhsitting.
В 8/20/2019 в 12:31 AM, AkyFenrir сказал:

Let's recapitulate arguments here :

"First time meeting a Saryn, can't play bouh nerf plz" (In a sortie by the way, who wants to waste time on sorties seriously)

It's literally written on the back page. Yes, it is written in support of Saryn, but why can't I use this as an example? This is one message, you can find a lot of them.

 

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