Can something be done about Saryn?

[ExcaliburUmbra]

13 minutes ago, Aldain said:

DPS shouldn't overshadow other roles or trivialize content to the point where a series of macros could play the game the same way a player can.

Raw damage potential shouldn't force a designer to have to make content that denies everyone (not just the damage frames) use of offensive abilities through immunity to either damage or status effects.

Players shouldn't have to fight other players to contribute to the team in a co-op game regardless of the mode, nor should the game run on a "Carry or be carried" system.

The current energy economy is part of the problem enabling this debacle to the point it is currently at and infinite energy is a problem

 

 

Great post, just wanted to toss in my hat and say I completely agree with pretty much all your points, especially the ones quoted. 

Not sure how I’d go about fixing the energy economy though. Maybe replacing it with a cooldown-based system with the relevant mods, arcanes and abilities reducing the cooldown instead of granting energy? It’d certainly make early-game less clunky for new players, especially if the first few abilities have fast/no cooldowns (though several abilities would then have to be rebalanced to compensate).

[Cibyllae]

18 minutes ago, (PS4)The1stAzrael said:

I know nerfing frames would fix. It would fix nothing. Absolutely nothing.

Then why are you asking for frames to get nerfed if it's not going to fix anything?

[(PSN)The1stAzrael]

1 minute ago, Cibyllae said:

Then why are you asking for frames to get nerfed if it's not going to fix anything?

If you had even been paying attention to what I've been saying, you would have seen that I am not asking for nerfs. If I'm asking for anything, it's cool-downs, a reworked damage system or ability restrictions; even though I know the improbability of getting those things, it never hurts to raise the suggestion.

[Cibyllae]

8 minutes ago, (PS4)The1stAzrael said:

If you had even been paying attention to what I've been saying, you would have seen that I am not asking for nerfs. If I'm asking for anything, it's cool-downs, a reworked damage system or ability restrictions; even though I know the improbability of getting those things, it never hurts to raise the suggestion.

From my understanding imposing cool-downs and ability restrictions are nerfs? What is your definition of a nerf? I can agree on a reworked damage system. Imposing ability restrictions and cool downs is a forced way to fix something broken, I rather them just rework Saryn if they were going to do that. If you want a nerf to Saryn that will work, remove miasma's ability to enable spores to be able to spread if the spore killed the enemy. 

Edited August 22, 2019 by Cibyllae

[AkyFenrir]

il y a 25 minutes, (PS4)The1stAzrael a dit :

Well, from my experiences, the limits also make you use the other abilities or weapons you have at your disposal. There are already some warframe with abilities that have a limited amount of targets they affect, like Nyx and Titania, and they aren't as bad as some say. I still thoroughly enjoy Nyx's kit, despite all the bad rep it gets.

I think most frames who have the potential to be troll builds have already been fixed, and I can't really think of a troll-frame who wouldn't been fixed to some extent by cool-downs or limits.I

I've stated multiple time i'm myself a Titania main. I enjoy her a lot ;) Never been in a situation where i had nothing to do, except if i "wanted" it.

Didn't touch nyx in a while so can't really say much there.

Well, you can troll with speed or slow nova (in specific situations you can kill new players overruned or slowing everything). Vauban can troll with his verticulal propulsor thingies. Probably other stuff there too.

il y a 25 minutes, (PS4)The1stAzrael a dit :

Yeah, their main source of income probably comes from casual players, so of course they need to keep it accessible to them, otherwise they'd be looking at some complaints. Like what happened with Arbitrations.

It could just be the population differences between PS4 and PC. I have no trouble picking up groups for survival and defense, but if I'm trying to do an excavation mission or Disruption, I could end up sitting there for 30 minutes.

Their recent changes to the clan system helped a bit, when they made it possible to change owners if the original leader had left, so it's not as bad as it could be. I'm going to have contact my friend (the former second in command), and see if he can get in touch with the guy. I just want to finish up a throne room I was building.

That's why I'm saying challenge would probably not really work. Can't be sure about it. But this kinds of reception from the players is kinda blocking don't you think? 

Well, I can only speak about my experience on PC, i don't have to wait more than 30 seconds to get in a full public group in Hieracon. Kinda sad you've to wait this long on PS4 :/

Good luck for the clan thing.

 

[Aldain]

25 minutes ago, FrostPrime said:

Not sure how I’d go about fixing the energy economy though. Maybe replacing it with a cooldown-based system with the relevant mods, arcanes and abilities reducing the cooldown instead of granting energy?

Better way would be to increase cooldowns for higher power energy pizzas and nerf energizing dash to be more supplemental than a total replacement. Doing that would also give Harrow back his niche as a "Mana Battery" type of frame.

Cooldowns on abilities are a bad idea imo, they would just mess with the current setup some frames have.

[AkyFenrir]

il y a 1 minute, Aldain a dit :

Better way would be to increase cooldowns for higher power energy pizzas and nerf energizing dash to be more supplemental than a total replacement. Doing that would also give Harrow back his niche as a "Mana Battery" type of frame.

Cooldowns on abilities are a bad idea imo, they would just mess with the current setup some frames have.

You do realize it's always been an infinite energy game Since trinity, it's her thing and healing too (used to be invulnerability at a time xD)? There's the Zenurik area too... Nobody ever pick harrow for energy...

Your suggestion won't change much!

[Cibyllae]

To be more specific remove this part of miasma.

• Ability Synergy: Miasma deals 400% damage to enemies affected by  Spores, and spored enemies that die while sickened by Miasma will spread spores.

Edited August 22, 2019 by Cibyllae

[(PSN)The1stAzrael]

17 minutes ago, Cibyllae said:

From my understanding imposing cool-downs and ability restrictions are nerfs? What is your definition of a nerf? I can agree on a reworked damage system. Imposing ability restrictions and cool downs is a forced way to fix something broken, I rather them just rework Saryn if they were going to do that. If you want a nerf to Saryn that will work, remove miasma's ability to enable spores to be able to spread if the spore killed the enemy. 

My understanding of a nerf, would be lowering the power scale of a frame, without changing any part of it's kit. Like if we drastically brought down the amount of damage she does, without removing anything or adding anything else. To me, that is a nerf.

The version of cool-downs and restrictions I am in favour of, would basically leave the frames as they are now, with the exception of only being able to cast spores or miasma every 10-15 seconds, on 25 or so enemies. So you'd still be doing the same damage, but you wouldn't be affecting as many enemies as before, which clears the way for others to contribute. However, with this system, it would require co-operation from your entire team, in order to get the most out of it, which would actually encourage team-play and communication. The game would still be solo-able if it utilised this system, because our melee and gun weapons would still be at our disposal during cool-down times.

Understandably, this would also generate issues if you queued with someone who felt you were doing a lousy job. My solution to this, would be an option to block the person from queuing with you again. I do realise the amount of work it may take to get all this done, which would greatly hinder their ability to still push out updates and patches.

Edit: yeah, removing that ability synergy would help, by atleast a small margin.

Edited August 22, 2019 by (PS4)The1stAzrael
added something.

[Cibyllae]

1 minute ago, (PS4)The1stAzrael said:

The version of cool-downs and restrictions I am in favour of, would basically leave the frames as they are now, with the exception of only being able to cast spores or miasma every 10-15 seconds, on 25 or so enemies. So you'd still be doing the same damage, but you wouldn't be affecting as many enemies as before,

That's where we are at a disagreement, you are looking at dps per one enemy, I am looking at total dps. Would you agree that those proposed changes would be nerfs to her total dps? I agree that those changes would not change the amount of damage she would deal to one enemy. The reason why I do not like those changes is because they are uninteractive restrictions, they are walls and barriers I can't interact with and restrict my ability to use the frame. I can compromise and say if you want to introduce cool downs and enemy caps to Saryn, they would have to be modifiable by efficiency or duration if we are talking strictly about Saryn.

[Cibyllae]

11 minutes ago, (PS4)The1stAzrael said:

Edit: yeah, removing that ability synergy would help, by atleast a small margin.

Many people who use Saryn probably aren't even aware of that Synergy because it came out (sneakly I might add) in a hotfix during her adjustment period. They probably think that its actually a part of Spores base function. When spores ramp up to between 1k-3k, its very easy for them to get the killing blow, without that synergy it would reduce Saryn's effectiveness to spread spores meaning she would have have to cast spore more often which would result in the use of more energy, and that would probably make her higher maintenance to play. It would be harder to maintain spores damage, meaning spores would more often be trying to ramp up instead of dealing upto 3k+ damage per tick, which is more like 9k per second because each spore does 3k.

 

Or if you really want a nerf, remove the infinite duration.

[(PSN)The1stAzrael]

19 minutes ago, AkyFenrir said:

I've stated multiple time i'm myself a Titania main. I enjoy her a lot 😉 Never been in a situation where i had nothing to do, except if i "wanted" it.

Didn't touch nyx in a while so can't really say much there.

Well, you can troll with speed or slow nova (in specific situations you can kill new players overruned or slowing everything). Vauban can troll with his verticulal propulsor thingies. Probably other stuff there too.

I was using her as an example of frames who limitations of their abilities, but they're still good. I can't imagine how insane a mission would get, if you could cast Lantern on everything, or flood the area with Razorflies. I think Nyx's Psychic Bolts have a limit of 6, but it still works great. I used her for the hour long survival challenges in the 1st season of Nightwave, and she did fine up until the last few minutes, when everything was in the 115-120 range.

With Nyx, it's more of a situation where I'll cast Chaos, and realise only two enemies are actually affected by it. It gets to be an annoyance after a bit.

I think another thing you can use Nova for, trolling wise, would be portal spamming in a hallway. That's definitely not fun. I haven't run into Speed Novas as often as Slow Novas, so I'm not certain about the effectiveness of that strategy.

29 minutes ago, AkyFenrir said:

That's why I'm saying challenge would probably not really work. Can't be sure about it. But this kinds of reception from the players is kinda blocking don't you think? 

Well, I can only speak about my experience on PC, i don't have to wait more than 30 seconds to get in a full public group in Hieracon. Kinda sad you've to wait this long on PS4 😕

Good luck for the clan thing.

It's definitely an issue the entire entertainment industry struggles with. I like using Marvel/Disney as an example of this, since that's the biggest offender. They've built their success on family movies, so now, everyone just expects all of their movies to be PG-13. It really limits what they could be doing, creatively, and when they finally decided to break that mold with Deadpool, it really showed what they're capable of. Even though I dislike the movie, it clearly got something right with the audiences.

[AkyFenrir]

il y a 52 minutes, (PS4)The1stAzrael a dit :

It's definitely an issue the entire entertainment industry struggles with. I like using Marvel/Disney as an example of this, since that's the biggest offender. They've built their success on family movies, so now, everyone just expects all of their movies to be PG-13. It really limits what they could be doing, creatively, and when they finally decided to break that mold with Deadpool, it really showed what they're capable of. Even though I dislike the movie, it clearly got something right with the audiences.

Well, those are very different cases. Disney could have afforded a flop of one film anyway. It's just a giant corporation, they can't fail unless they really want it.

DE are independant without any publisher backing them up. They can't afford Warframe flopping. It might be sad for some but the current systems seems to work very well for them. That's why i've a hard time to figure out why they would change something?  (By the way I prefer it that way, no lootboxes is a very good thing, laughed a lot when they talked about surprise mechanics on last dev stream :) 

[(PSN)The1stAzrael]

2 hours ago, Cibyllae said:

That's where we are at a disagreement, you are looking at dps per one enemy, I am looking at total dps. Would you agree that those proposed changes would be nerfs to her total dps? I agree that those changes would not change the amount of damage she would deal to one enemy. The reason why I do not like those changes is because they are uninteractive restrictions, they are walls and barriers I can't interact with and restrict my ability to use the frame. I can compromise and say if you want to introduce cool downs and enemy caps to Saryn, they would have to be modifiable by efficiency or duration if we are talking strictly about Saryn.

Of course her total DPS would be lower, since she'd be damaging less enemies, but she'd still be more than capable at clearing out thick groups of enemies. My main concern about being able to increase the power caps, would be that we'd end up, a little close to where we are now. At maximum, maybe her spore limit would 45-50?

I'm not sure how one could make cool-downs or restrictions interactive, as far as gameplay goes. Perhaps if there was some sort of trade-off like, mods or arcanes that would shorten the cool-down time or increase the cap, but lower casting speed.

2 hours ago, Cibyllae said:

Many people who use Saryn probably aren't even aware of that Synergy because it came out (sneakly I might add) in a hotfix during her adjustment period. They probably think that its actually a part of Spores base function. When spores ramp up to between 1k-3k, its very easy for them to get the killing blow, without that synergy it would reduce Saryn's effectiveness to spread spores meaning she would have have to cast spore more often which would result in the use of more energy, and that would probably make her higher maintenance to play. It would be harder to maintain spores damage, meaning spores would more often be trying to ramp up instead of dealing upto 3k+ damage per tick, which is more like 9k per second because each spore does 3k.

 

Or if you really want a nerf, remove the infinite duration.

Now that I think of it, I recall reading the patch-notes when they added it, and more than a few people were running around calling it a nerf. Not sure why though. Or it could've been something else.

With the way you describe it, it does seem like removing it, or shortening the duration would greatly increase the effort required to maintain her spores, and yes, make her higher maintenance. Which would curb the number of people who lazily nuke areas, without completely "ruining her" as they say.

1 hour ago, AkyFenrir said:

Well, those are very different cases. Disney could have afforded a flop of one film anyway. It's just a giant corporation, they can't fail unless they really want it.

DE are independant without any publisher backing them up. They can't afford Warframe flopping. It might be sad for some but the current systems seems to work very well for them. That's why i've a hard time to figure out why they would change something?  (By the way I prefer it that way, no lootboxes is a very good thing, laughed a lot when they talked about surprise mechanics on last dev stream :)

Not entirely, Pocahontas made 346.1 million at the box office, going up against Toy Story, who had made 373.6 million. That 27.5 million dollar difference, was enough to push Disney towards computer animated films. I don't think any company can afford making a flop, whether it's your mom & pop store, or a billion dollar company. But I digress.

It works for them now, but a few years down the line, it definitely wont, especially if they keep releasing new frames and weapons, or reworking more frames into damage dealers, without doing anything with our enemies. Even they seem to have realised how much power we have access to, since both the Wolf and the ropalolyst are/were heavily armoured and immune to some of the warframe's abilities. If the Wolf didn't have Alloy armor on top of Alloy health, he would've melted as easily as he did at the end up the season.

I do like how DE still communicates with their fanbase through the forums, reddit and twitter. It makes them seem more down to earth.

 

[XenMaster]

Well saryn is strong cuz majority of her abilities proc corrosive and viral. The two mandatory elements.

 

If other frames get corrosive proc in their abilities players would call them op.

[Chicken-Biryani]

Why don't you guys go solo, if you want to hog all the kills. I for one am glad when I am able to take in the views without worrying about dodging bullets, if a Saryn is in my squad. 🙂

[Chicken-Biryani]

On 2019-08-02 at 9:09 PM, WellIHopeThisOneWorks said:

(not to say you cant trivialize anything in the game with any other frame, but to me, I feel there's a difference between 'I am so strong I'm destroying everything and engaged!' verses 'I'm so strong I click a button a few times and go make a sandwich while doing it' I, like the former, but most people that are still playing this game for any length of time past hour 2000? tend to be the later...and again, will defend it to the death...) 

Try playing saryn and making a sandwich... You can't do it. So stop make insane exaggerations. The hyperbole is so much with this one. 

[Xepthrichros]

11 hours ago, (PS4)The1stAzrael said:

I think Nyx's Psychic Bolts have a limit of 6, but it still works great

Actually it is quite a laughable skill in comparison to Ash's Seeking Shuriken.

[Blexander]

9 hours ago, (PS4)The1stAzrael said:

I do like how DE still communicates with their fanbase through the forums

What kind of bizzaro-universe did you come from? The forums are literally neglected and ignored 80% of the time. Reddit is basically the "official" Warframe forum.

[Sharkgoblin]

On 2019-08-02 at 5:13 PM, MrRixter said:

I'm a fairly new player and today I got matched with a Saryn at my sortie. It was the first time that I felt bored in the game. There was nothing for me to do, everything was dying instantly all over the map so I just went afk and made a cup of tea. Whats the point of me trying to improve my frames and get all the mods, arcanes etc, when a frame exists which can nuke the whole map with no effort at all? I apologise if I'm wrong but from what I saw was a Saryn barely even moving.

I feel quite deflated right now and confused on how something so broken is allowed to exist in the game. Bare in my mind I'm quite new so I'm not aware if there are other broken frames, its just this Saryn was the first one I saw.

 no one forces you to play with her 

 

 

[(PSN)The1stAzrael]

10 hours ago, Xepthrichros said:

Actually it is quite a laughable skill in comparison to Ash's Seeking Shuriken.

Ash is Stealth+Damage. His passive is a major boon to his kit, and his two damage attacks deal True damage + 100 % bleed chance (Bladestorm) and 500 Slash + a 100% status chance (Shuriken).

Nyx is strictly CC (Absorb does a pathetic amount of damage, so I could hardly call it a damage dealing ability).

So yeah, kinda apples and oranges.

9 hours ago, Blexander said:

What kind of bizzaro-universe did you come from? The forums are literally neglected and ignored 80% of the time. Reddit is basically the "official" Warframe forum.

I've seen members of the DE team post on the forums, on very rare occasions, yes. 

[Blexander]

1 hour ago, (PS4)The1stAzrael said:

I've seen members of the DE team post on the forums, on very rare occasions, yes. 

It's important on which topics they comment on. I've had [DE]Bear respond to one of my posts, but it was in relation to chat moderation. I've only seen them respond to "technical" posts and some feedback related post made by DE themselves. In any case, that's still minimal interaction with the forums which is bad.

[Pizzarugi]

14 hours ago, Sharkgoblin said:

 no one forces you to play with her

Matchmaking does.

Too bad there's no way players can blacklist certain frames or weapons from matchmaking, where people can't join your sessions, or you can't join sessions if there's someone using them. It doesn't even have to be about Saryn, perhaps you're the kinda person who hates having Limbo in the team because of how often he gets abused by griefers, same with Switch Teleporting Loki.

Edited August 24, 2019 by Pizzarugi

[Chicken-Biryani]

4 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

Matchmaking does.

Too bad there's no way players can blacklist certain frames or weapons from matchmaking, where people can't join your sessions, or you can't join sessions if there's someone using them. It doesn't even have to be about Saryn, perhaps you're the kinda person who hates having Limbo in the team because of how often he gets abused by griefers, same with Switch Teleporting Loki.

Public mission = All kind of possibilities! Private squads = Total control!

Simple as that.

[Pizzarugi]

2 minutes ago, --C--Nehra said:

Public mission = All kind of possibilities! Private squads = Total control!

Simple as that.

I'd like to see how successful anyone is going to be, asking for a private squad every time they want to run one mission just to avoid some frames. 😛