Can something be done about Saryn?

[ErratusEnigma]

An interesting solution to this is to have all of the factions 'evolve' to better combat the Tenno, with kill-squads being deployed against the most 'meta' playstyles. Anti-ability squads, like the Corpus have, but more powerful and durable, targeting more and wider range of abilites; super-agile with some form of protection against spread attacks from weapons; very good duelists who will laugh at the slide-attack smash combo of whips.

I don't know. Something to liven up the game, I guess.

Or we could just make every single enemy a nullifier with Azoth attacks. That could work, too.

[sleepychewbacca]

Just now, Cubewano said:

With just Saryn changed? There are alternatives that can do just as well as she does for ESO presently so I'm sure you could adapt. If we changed the entire scale of the game in regards to aoe clear? Realistically (and ideally) ESO would be re-balanced to fit those changes so you farm would similarly be fine. The mission clear I can't say much for, but a lot of what frames like Saryn do is excessive and not truly impactful to the core mission for efficiencies sake so that probably wouldn't change all that much? It's just a lot of extra destruction that comes down more on team play than objective play. 

The only real loss I can see the loss in pick up efficiency from less enemy recycling (dying and respawning constantly) but since you play solo a lot I can only assume that's an area of efficiency you don't care for? Other efficiencies I'm not sure would really be impeded all that much? A few seconds more per mission maybe depending on the mission, for a more universally enjoyable game balance and maybe even better enemy/boss design? 

Mostly for my old stubborn mind where once I find something that works for me, I like sticking around with it. I do understand the concerns for room-clear frames, and I'm not entirely against such concerns.

However, what I take issue with (and I'm not saying you're such), is the segment of the community that tries to push the game into a different version of what Warframe is or has set itself out to be. I personally feel that taking the time to recruit like-minded players would help, while letting users like me indulge in the power-fantasy it gives, etc. 

But you do raise some thoughtful points, so I can go digest that for a bit. 

[FaithRose]

5 minutes ago, Cubewano said:

Don't like playing them or don't like being grouped with? ...

Going to do the best I can here to reply to each point.

1) They don't want to be in a group with them. Some players feel they in some way shape or form, limit the group or inhibit game play with their skills. 

2) I look at the failures for the same reason you look only at the success. 

3) Where did you get that Saryn was weaker before the rework? Cause that doesn't appear to be the case according to others.....

I'm not saying re-works don't happen...but calling for a rework because something doesn't suit your play style is kinda short sighted. In my book she is a beautiful frame and a fantastic concept. I'm sorry some people don't like things that can nuke a whole room, but others do. I personally appreciate the crowd control. I ask the same question, why is a nerf the only option people see? I stand by the person who said perhaps making everything else stronger is also an option.

4) See above. No the frames don't exist on their own but they all have a place. Saryn happens to be a nuke goddess....that's what she does. 

5) Mhm. I am mentioning other nuke frames because I am confused (as many others are) as to why Saryn takes so much attention for her skill and none of these get put in the fire as much as she does. Again, I don't see a problem with any of those frames either....they are best as what they do.....Saryn isn't for every mission anymore than Ivara is. As for the corpus....nullifiers kill spores.

[(PSN)NewcastleDisease]

vor 25 Minuten schrieb Cubewano:

she can have as many redesigns as she needs to get in a good and balanced spot, as is how the pursuit for balance goes. and what makes you think she will be unusable? frames that can do much less than her power wise are still fairly popular, some vastly more than her. do you think a majority of the roster unusable for that matter if you think nerfing saryn would do such to her?

redesigning nezha also crippled him for his players. it was awful to rearange him and make him playable again. still it's not that good as he was. and why? because some guys was crying aboout his halo.. which is his 3rd ability... very freaky because rhinos 2nd is more durable and harder as nezhas halo was. so it makes no sense to do this. also you had to switch your whole playstyle. just an example on what redesign does.

and saryn is already redesigned. her power is already restricted. yes, you can swipe an entire map with pressing a single button - if the enemies are low level enough, are not corpus and you had just this single movement modded.  and - if you get no energy, you still suck up. so whats exactly is the problem with her now? that some players are angry because they get smaller killrates? wuhu - may they should suggest to switch there frame settings to a more powerful one. sorry but i know enough frame which outpowers a saryn if right modded (and you also need a right modded saryn for one kill). 

 

Zitat

i agree she isn't fine, she scales terribly, and he ult is just a design mess that needs replacing, but for doing what she did in the past she still does that as fine as ever really. what makes you think she can't do what she did in the past? 

ember before the rework was a mass destruction frame. nuking out whole maps without problems over time. now?  energy drain gets to shorten that out. yes you can mod her to use just this single ability - and then you're out of luck if you get no energy. sound familiar to saryn? it is. that why i say: saryn do not need any rework (again). she is fine as she is. beside that she has other abilities than just her 4th. 

 

it can't be the solution to kill frames just because some player are pi!?ed of for there killing rates. if a frame do not fit your playstayle, don't play it.. 

 

Edited August 5, 2019 by (PS4)NewcastleDisease
typo

[40PE]

On 2019-08-02 at 5:13 PM, MrRixter said:

I'm a fairly new player and today I got matched with a Saryn at my sortie. It was the first time that I felt bored in the game. There was nothing for me to do, everything was dying instantly all over the map so I just went afk and made a cup of tea. Whats the point of me trying to improve my frames and get all the mods, arcanes etc, when a frame exists which can nuke the whole map with no effort at all? I apologise if I'm wrong but from what I saw was a Saryn barely even moving.

I feel quite deflated right now and confused on how something so broken is allowed to exist in the game. Bare in my mind I'm quite new so I'm not aware if there are other broken frames, its just this Saryn was the first one I saw.

Youre trolling, sorry, but really no.

[(PSN)NewcastleDisease]

vor 28 Minuten schrieb Cubewano:

With just Saryn changed? There are alternatives that can do just as well as she does for ESO presently so I'm sure you could adapt. If we changed the entire scale of the game in regards to aoe clear? Realistically (and ideally) ESO would be re-balanced to fit those changes so you farm would similarly be fine. The mission clear I can't say much for, but a lot of what frames like Saryn do is excessive and not truly impactful to the core mission for efficiencies sake so that probably wouldn't change all that much? It's just a lot of extra destruction that comes down more on team play than objective play. 

The only real loss I can see the loss in pick up efficiency from less enemy recycling (dying and respawning constantly) but since you play solo a lot I can only assume that's an area of efficiency you don't care for? Other efficiencies I'm not sure would really be impeded all that much? A few seconds more per mission maybe depending on the mission, for a more universally enjoyable game balance and maybe even better enemy/boss design? 

and what if you like to play saryn? yeah funny question hu? 

but some people (me for example) likes to play with her because she is a real good frame. not because she has her 4th ability. because she is a very fine arranged frame. to rework that will rip that off.

and beside that: if so many frame can do the same: what we are talking about than? do we have to rework them all too? no? then why we need to rework saryn?

Edited August 5, 2019 by (PS4)NewcastleDisease
typo again

[Loza03]

3 minutes ago, ErratusEnigma said:

An interesting solution to this is to have all of the factions 'evolve' to better combat the Tenno, with kill-squads being deployed against the most 'meta' playstyles. Anti-ability squads, like the Corpus have, but more powerful and durable, targeting more and wider range of abilites; super-agile with some form of protection against spread attacks from weapons; very good duelists who will laugh at the slide-attack smash combo of whips.

This might be a fun system, though I'm not sure how effective it they might be considering hard CC abilities or immortal/invisible frames.

 

Personally, what I'd do with Saryn is keep her current mechanics, but implement some kind of system that more or less limits her mass destruction to weaker enemies - lancers, crewmen, chargers, but leaving heavier troops more or less unscathed - things like Heavy Gunner, Techs, Ancients. Perhaps based on their base amount of Armour or shields (so, possibly infested would lack any means of dealing with Saryn, but I'm not exactly perfect.) so that way she can't completely erase a map of enemies, but is still a very useful and powerful frame.

I'm honestly not that bothered with power as long as it maintains gameplay, and Saryn is on that borderline. She still has fair bit of gameplay on her end (spore management), but she still has a tendency to both wipe it out for others, and be effective enough to remove all obstacles making any defensive deficiencies she may have somewhat moot. If heavies could withstand her plague though, that kills two birds - other players have more stuff to do, and Saryn does have to watch her back.

[Cubewano]

3 minutes ago, FaithRose said:

1) They don't want to be in a group with them. Some players feel they in some way shape or form, limit the group or inhibit game play with their skills. 

How? (for each frame individually) Remember, elaboration is key. This is a very contextualized sort of affair. 

3 minutes ago, FaithRose said:

2) I look at the failures for the same reason you look only at the success. 

I don't only look at the successes, and have openly acknowledged and addressed failings presently and in the past. 

3 minutes ago, FaithRose said:

3) Where did you get that Saryn was weaker before the rework? Cause that doesn't appear to be the case according to others.....

From being around for both versions, Saryn wasn't bad in the past either, but she scaled far worse, and even had less utility. She was mostly niche in the past, good for low level clears and mostly just that.  

3 minutes ago, FaithRose said:

I'm not saying re-works don't happen...but calling for a rework because something doesn't suit your play style is kinda short sighted. In my book she is a beautiful frame and a fantastic concept. I'm sorry some people don't like things that can nuke a whole room, but others do. I personally appreciate the crowd control. I ask the same question, why is a nerf the only option people see? I stand by the person who said perhaps making everything else stronger is also an option.

You have ignored everything I've said up to this point if you think that is the premise of this argument. Please re-read my past responses for clarity on why a rebalance is warranted, or at least why I feel it is. 

3 minutes ago, FaithRose said:

4) See above. No the frames don't exist on their own but they all have a place. Saryn happens to be a nuke goddess....that's what she does. 

If that is her place, then no other places can exist. 

3 minutes ago, FaithRose said:

5) Mhm. I am mentioning other nuke frames because I am confused (as many others are) as to why Saryn takes so much attention for her skill and none of these get put in the fire as much as she does. Again, I don't see a problem with any of those frames either....they are best as what they do.....Saryn isn't for every mission anymore than Ivara is. As for the corpus....nullifiers kill spores.

She is the least situation and lowest effort of them, she's also the most popular, so naturally encounters with her are the most common. The op in specific for this thread clearly hasn't been around long, so they don't know how many problem frames are out there, just that the scale for the problem itself exists and that Saryn was their first encounter with it. And the best of what they do is invalidate a majority of the game, ruining game balance and crushing co-operative play. The only mission they aren't for is missions that have to specifically exempt them from competing more or less due to how overwhelming they are everywhere else. If frames aren't meant to be for all missions, then Saryn and frames like her are glowing standouts for breaking that rule. And have you considered maybe killing the nullifiers? Are you like only using her spores? 

[Cubewano]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)NewcastleDisease said:

and what if you like to play saryn? yeah funny question hu? 

but some people (me for example) likes to play with her because she is a real good frame. not because she has her 4th ability. because she is a very fine arranged frame. to rework that will rip that off.

and beside that: if so many frame can do the same: what we are talking about than? do we have to rework them all too? no? then why we need to rework saryn?

Then you play her? Ideally under the state of the later instance, which is what I'm for, where she'd function perfectly fine. 

Nobody is saying her playstyle has to change, just the extent it can go to. If you truly just enjoy her because of her aesthetic / kit flow there's nothing saying that has to change. Not to say you couldn't similarly enjoy if she changed either, people certainly like Wukong now more than in the past, albeit him being technically weaker for it. 

Yes we'd have to rework all that apply, at least if we're intent on actually solving the issue.

[TheGodofWiFi]

On 2019-08-02 at 4:13 PM, MrRixter said:

I'm a fairly new player and today I got matched with a Saryn at my sortie. It was the first time that I felt bored in the game. There was nothing for me to do, everything was dying instantly all over the map so I just went afk and made a cup of tea. Whats the point of me trying to improve my frames and get all the mods, arcanes etc, when a frame exists which can nuke the whole map with no effort at all? I apologise if I'm wrong but from what I saw was a Saryn barely even moving.

I feel quite deflated right now and confused on how something so broken is allowed to exist in the game. Bare in my mind I'm quite new so I'm not aware if there are other broken frames, its just this Saryn was the first one I saw.

You do realise what this post sounds like?

"I'm new and I've just seen a player in one mission who has been playing longer than me and thus is more powerful. But I don't really like that. Nerf it."

That's honestly what your post sounds like. I'm sorry but coming into a game and expecting players who have been playing before you to somehow come back down to your level is not only arrogant, but also very selfish.

The part where you say "whats the point" is the part that I'm struggling with the most. The point is right in front of you; Saryn. You get the mods and arcances so you can one day be as powerful as her. That's the whole point of playing the game. I don't know where you have come from before, but that is how Warframe works. Mods make you extremely powerful and they always have done. The fact you don't see that and instead want to just nerf Saryn because you got bored in one mission and can't see how cool it would be to work towards that Saryn's power level is worrying.

It would only be broken if Saryn was like that from the get-go, but she isn't. And yes, considering your definition of broken, there are plenty of frames/guns out there that would qualify for that label in your eyes.

I mean could you imagine if this is the attitude all new players had when they saw something powerful?

"Wow that gun kills loads of enemies in one shot, but my unmodded MK-Braton can't even kill one in good time. That makes me bored. Nerf it"

"Wow that polearm can sepreate an entire platoon from their bottom halves while my unmodded Skana can't even open a tin-can. I'm bored again. Nerf it."

This is not a good post. At all.

Edited August 5, 2019 by TheGodofWiFi

[(PSN)NewcastleDisease]

vor 14 Minuten schrieb Cubewano:

Then you play her? Ideally under the state of the later instance, which is what I'm for, where she'd function perfectly fine. 

Nobody is saying her playstyle has to change, just the extent it can go to. If you truly just enjoy her because of her aesthetic / kit flow there's nothing saying that has to change. Not to say you couldn't similarly enjoy if she changed either, people certainly like Wukong now more than in the past, albeit him being technically weaker for it. 

Yes we'd have to rework all that apply, at least if we're intent on actually solving the issue.

i like her because she is well designed, and sorry but she is balanced. just because she can do mass damage (which she was forged for) don't makes her overpowered. but you need to mod her the right way with the right mods to get her to that point. 

any limbo or eqinox or even an nekros and some other frames can do more damage in less time. no one cries about them. but it seems you just want to cripple all frame to the egde. why? whats the benefits on killing all these frames? and what issues are you talking about? that a frame is designed for a special purpose? sorry but do you also want to kick ivaras invisibility? or ashs bladstorm again? because they are able to do things other can't?

just let me know what the benefit is to "rework" saryn. that some are sadisfied because she can't mass controll any more? than what is saryn for? what would be her purpose?

 

ah, and if you don't want to play such frames: don't do it. 

 

Edited August 5, 2019 by (PS4)NewcastleDisease
typo

[FaithRose]

With Limbo the rift seems to be a problem. It can block enemy attacking and stop interaction with consoles to name a few. Excalibro, I've seen a few folks complain about people jumping out in operator and going afk. With Wukong Celestial Twin, I've already seen people complaining about room clears with the twin and the staff. We even had someone come flying by with their twin using catchmoon (it looked like) and wiping out the Index.

But your focus in the replies for me was only success. You asked me why I am focusing on the negatives to support my concerns. It's the same you use the success to support yours. I hadn't heard you say (unless I missed it) that reworks have failed so maybe a rework can go wrong. That's what I was trying to pointing out. I am also pointing out what others who experienced for both versions of Saryn's said and there are supporting claims that her nuke was much worse before.

I'm not ignoring you at all. The statement is made in response to several posts here that are from people who call her "boring" or say that "nuke frames have no place" etc etc. You yourself said that she feels like more of a nuisance to you, that you are cheating through the game, and that it grows old fast for you. Nevertheless, I feel sort of the same though, that you are ignoring the points I also have. I'm sorry, but as a person who really likes Saryn, if I don't speak up for a frame I DO enjoy and I DO like playing regularly....I am going to sit idly by and watch a frame I do happen to have fun with, destroyed. You see an issue...I don't. 

As for cooperative gameplay, again there are other solutions that are being ignored because some folks just want a nerf/rework. If these kinds of things ruin co-op play for you....then please take an option to not play with them? Why is that not even considered?.....instead the dislike of some to play with a frame should mean a change for everyone? That's pretty intense. There are many other options for coop play including clans, friends, and maybe one day a more detailed looking for group. I'm just over done with crying for nerfs every time someone doesn't think a frame should exist in the game the way it does. I still don't see how nuke frames even ruin the majority of game play. Can you please give me instances of every aspect she ruins to make it the majority? If the frames weren't meant to exist...they wouldn't be made.

As for the nullifiers, yeah I can try and take them out but in higher level maps/missions quite a few spawn. I enjoy using spores with miasma and the nullifiers seem to negate both. I normally run her 1,3 and 4.

Edited August 5, 2019 by FaithRose

[(PSN)Bigboodyjuudy]

23 minutes ago, (PS4)NewcastleDisease said:

i like her because she is well designed, and sorry but she is balanced. just because she can do mass damage (which she was forged for) don't makes her overpowered. but you need to mod her the right way with the right mods to get her to that point. 

any limbo or eqinox or even an nekros and some other frames can do more damage in less time. no one cries about them. but it seems you just want to cripple all frame to the egde. why? whats the benefits on killing all these frames? and what issues are you talking about? that a frame is designed for a special purpose? sorry but do you also want to kick ivaras invisibility? or ashs bladstorm again? because they are able to do things other can't?

just let me know what the benefit is to "rework" saryn. that some are sadisfied because she can't mass controll any more? than what is saryn for? what would be her purpose?

 

ah, and if you don't want to play such frames: don't do it. 

 

 

How is she balanced when you have players refusing to play with a Saryn because she nukes everything on the map? Whats your definition of balanced exactly? 

[(PSN)NewcastleDisease]

vor 25 Minuten schrieb (PS4)Bigboodyjuudy:

 

How is she balanced when you have players refusing to play with a Saryn because she nukes everything on the map? Whats your definition of balanced exactly? 

so, do you know what you have to do to make her able to wipe out an entire map? 

to get her so far you have to play a lot and farm mods, arcanas etc. 

thats something you can do with a lot of frames. make them nearly impossible to kill, autoaim to shot every enemies head or even wipe out a map too. that do not make them unbalanced. it's there purpose to be a such a frame. Saryn is just a very popular one. Thats all.

but beside there 4th, she perform very good as  support with her 1st to make enemies weaker and her 2nd to draw attention, and also be good in meele with her 3rd. thats why i say: she is good balanced. i can play every situation with her (na... without a few spy missions i think 😄)

i like to play in teams, to support other 

and also doing stuff on my one.

and Saryn give me everything i need to do this.

i just like the way you can play with her abilities.

but as already wrote: there are frame which can do more damage, and noone complain about them - just because they are not that popular.

and the op is just another new player which write the same old stuff about a frame just to nerf it to his own abilities. and missed to see that you need a lot of stuff and work and time to get this far.

so your solution is to rip every frame just you are able to do such things with enought time and work? this is a loot game. we play to do such things one time, or to get the new perfect fitting high damage weapon and mod her to be better. and so on.

but go on, kill the whole game and restrict every frame which do not sadisfy your mind. And in a few month noone will play warframe because every frame is exactly like every other frame else just with another animation. would be a very cool game then... 

 

Edited August 5, 2019 by (PS4)NewcastleDisease
typo

[TheGodofWiFi]

44 minutes ago, (PS4)Bigboodyjuudy said:

How is she balanced when you have players refusing to play with a Saryn because she nukes everything on the map? Whats your definition of balanced exactly? 

You have players refusing to play with others for a variety of reasons. Should we be considering all of them in that case? For example, someone who still insists on leaving a mission when Limbo pops in, evne after it's shown that he actually plays with other people in mind?

Or should we consider those who refuse to play with Equinox because her Maim wipes everything off the map?

Or those those who refuse to play with players who refuse to play with others who use kitguns because they are incredibly powerful and can cut through most enemies like butter?

Or those who refuse to run with a Mesa because her guns make short work of enemies too?

Or new players who enter missions where players with high-level gear - which they have more than likely spent ages building and getting mods for - hang out and the proceed to complain about being bored because the high-level players are unsurprisingly taking on high-level content easier than they are, like the OP is doing?

You see how this sort of thinking is awful and slippery slope? You will never ever satisfy everyone. People will have gripes whatever the reason. Some are genuine, but most are not. This thread is an example of the latter. Should we listen to the OP? I really do not think so.

Edited August 5, 2019 by TheGodofWiFi

[Veridian]

On 2019-08-02 at 5:13 PM, MrRixter said:

 can nuke the whole map with no effort at all

Yep, Saryn can do that. Another 30 or so frames can also do that. Unlike others she is very expensive to get to that point.

Why should Saryn take a hit because some vet didn't care for some newbie's feelings?

I know I wouldn't either on my Nth sortie and I'd still wipe out the map with anything from Inaros with PK zaw to Discharge Volt, so should everything be nerfed?

[TheGodofWiFi]

Just now, Ver1dian said:

Yep, Saryn can do that. Another 30 or so frames can also do that. Unlike others she is very expensive to get to that point.

Why should Saryn take a hit because some vet didn't care for some newbie's feelings?

I know I wouldn't either on my Nth sortie and I'd still wipe out the map with anything from Inaros with PK zaw to Discharge Volt, so should everything be nerfed?

Took the words right out of my mouth.

Rixter's complaint would hold no weight even if he was reffering to the normal star-chart level missions, but the thing that makes it worth even less is that he very clearly went into a Sortie and somehow didn't expect high-level players to be there or something.

[Cubewano]

1 hour ago, (PS4)NewcastleDisease said:

i like her because she is well designed, and sorry but she is balanced. just because she can do mass damage (which she was forged for) don't makes her overpowered. but you need to mod her the right way with the right mods to get her to that point. 

any limbo or eqinox or even an nekros and some other frames can do more damage in less time. no one cries about them. but it seems you just want to cripple all frame to the egde. why? whats the benefits on killing all these frames? and what issues are you talking about? that a frame is designed for a special purpose? sorry but do you also want to kick ivaras invisibility? or ashs bladstorm again? because they are able to do things other can't?

just let me know what the benefit is to "rework" saryn. that some are sadisfied because she can't mass controll any more? than what is saryn for? what would be her purpose?

 

ah, and if you don't want to play such frames: don't do it. 

 

just because you say she is enough doesn't make it reality. she invalidates fields of play, negatively impacts co-operative play, and breaks balance to the extent of pushing out entire class roles. if you can somehow find a way to argue that is balanced, feel free, but i'll have a mighty hard time seeing how clearing rooms of enemies without even having to see them while completely restructuring the games balance curve is anything other than woefully imbalanced and overpowered. 

equinox maybe, nekros less so, and to the same ease/efficiency? debatable. why? the earlier issues of game balance, co-operative play, and role diversity. why water down the entire game for a handful of flawed designs? emphasis on handful, there aren't as many over performers as you seem to be painting there to be. equinox, saryn, volt, octavia (for somewhat alternate reasons), and mesa are the only notable standouts, some more than others. 

better game balance, more engaging gameplay, healthier co-operative play, better design/role diversity and viability. as for what her purpose would be after a rework, that'd be up the those reworking her, she could remain the same as a dps with background utility or she could become more support oriented, a debuffer/tank maybe, whose to say. there are many roles aside from being a map clearer, and without the map clearing they all become pretty viable. 

that's not the issue, nor would it resolve any issues. the frame doesn't exist in a vacuum unto itself. 

 

[DeMonkey]

1 hour ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

The part where you say "whats the point" is the part that I'm struggling with the most. The point is right in front of you; Saryn. You get the mods and arcances so you can one day be as powerful as her.

You see, I'd say that this response (not just the bit I've quoted) is quite selfish and fairly narrowminded, not the OP's. You're completely and utterly failing to see it from the point of view of the other player, and it's absolutely impossible to have a reasoned discussion until you can.

To them it's not, "You get the mods and arcances so you can one day be as powerful as her."

It's instead, "You get the mods and arcances so you can one day be as boring as her." 

Hence their question? What is the point? From this new players perspective, what is the point in getting a support frame like Trinity when Saryn nukes everything without support? What is the point in getting a tanky frame like Chroma when Saryn nukes everything, there's nothing to shoot you? What's the point in unlocking new content when Saryn invalidates content? Now, granted, this is not a problem singular to Saryn, but as they have expressed they are new and do not know about all the other ways of invalidating content.

This is not something you should be struggling with.

1 hour ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

I mean could you imagine if this is the attitude all new players had when they saw something powerful?

"Wow that gun kills loads of enemies in one shot, but my unmodded MK-Braton can't even kill one in good time. That makes me bored. Nerf it"

"Wow that polearm can sepreate an entire platoon from their bottom halves while my unmodded Skana can't even open a tin-can. I'm bored again. Nerf it."

Cough Strawman Cough.

They didn't say that they were bored because other things kill better, that's standard fare for a video game, they were bored because something (Saryn) killed everything.

There is a huge difference between:

I killed 5 things in the time it took someone to kill 20, they're powerful but I'm still able to do something and enjoy myself.

vs

I killed nothing throughout the entire mission because someone killed everything before I could. I was so bored I got up and made myself a cup of tea. 

Edited August 5, 2019 by DeMonkey

[Cubewano]

1 hour ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

You do realise what this post sounds like?

"I'm new and I've just seen a player in one mission who has been playing longer than me and thus is more powerful. But I don't really like that. Nerf it."

That's honestly what your post sounds like. I'm sorry but coming into a game and expecting players who have been playing before you to somehow come back down to your level is not only arrogant, but also very selfish.

The part where you say "whats the point" is the part that I'm struggling with the most. The point is right in front of you; Saryn. You get the mods and arcances so you can one day be as powerful as her. That's the whole point of playing the game. I don't know where you have come from before, but that is how Warframe works. Mods make you extremely powerful and they always have done. The fact you don't see that and instead want to just nerf Saryn because you got bored in one mission and can't see how cool it would be to work towards that Saryn's power level is worrying.

It would only be broken if Saryn was like that from the get-go, but she isn't. And yes, considering your definition of broken, there are plenty of frames/guns out there that would qualify for that label in your eyes.

I mean could you imagine if this is the attitude all new players had when they saw something powerful?

"Wow that gun kills loads of enemies in one shot, but my unmodded MK-Braton can't even kill one in good time. That makes me bored. Nerf it"

"Wow that polearm can sepreate an entire platoon from their bottom halves while my unmodded Skana can't even open a tin-can. I'm bored again. Nerf it."

This is not a good post. At all.

Coming into a game and expecting to be able to actually play is about as far from arrogance as one can get. This isn't some vanity piece about "how dare someone be stronger than me", it's a bout a player literally going into a piece of content and being completely cut off being actually able to play due to another player. It's honestly awful you are trying to look down on someone for wanting something as basic as being able to actually play the game they are here to play. 

[TheGodofWiFi]

37 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

You're completely and utterly failing to see it from the point of view of the other player, and it's absolutely impossible to have a reasoned discussion until you can.

I am seeing from their perspective. This is a new player, who has seen a player who has clearly been playing longer than them and has access to mods/resources they do not have yet and is actively making use of them and they do not like it because they find it makes the mission boring. Bear in mind this is one mission and the only mission they have found boring in their opinion. I am not being selfish by pointing out how you can't just expect people to stop using the gear they have worked hard to make, simply because you find it boring. The thing that makes this post extra rich is that MrRixter was in a Sortie at the time he encountered this Saryn.

37 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

To them it's not, "You get the mods and arcances so you can one day be as powerful as her."

It's instead, "You get the mods and arcances so you can one day be as boring as her." 

And that somehow isn't the most selfish thing you have ever heard? Just because someone finds a certain playstyle boring, doesn't suddenly give them the right to demand a nerf. And yes he is failing to see the point in being powerful as that is the kind of build you can get once you reach the level of veteran.

37 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

From this new players perspective, what is the point in getting a support frame like Trinity when Saryn nukes everything without support? What is the point in getting a tanky frame like Chroma when Saryn nukes everything, there's nothing to shoot you?

If you or indeed the OP truly think like that, then it's pretty laughable. By this logic, why is everyone not using Saryn? Why isn't everyone not using Inaros? I mean if all you need is either of those two, then why are people not running around with them all the time. That is the true signal that something is broken. You play certain frames because you find them fun, it's not just about efficiency, although that is a big part.

The point is to get mods to make your frame of choice, just as viable as those two and yes, there are frames who can rival Saryn. Both in the fact they cost less to make a massive nuke build and because they in some cases like Equinox can be far easier to use as they don't even require spamming. Hit one button and there you go. With the right build, certain frames can wipe the floor with enemies. Saryn is not unique in that regard at all.

37 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

They didn't say that they were bored because other things kill better, that's standard fare for a video game, they were bored because something (Saryn) killed everything.

And so can a lot of other frames/weapons in the hands of players who know what they are doing. So it's not a misrepresentation of their argument at all, which is what you are trying to claim. A Mesa in the right hands can kill everything. An Equinox in the right hands can kill everything. An Excalibur in the right hands can kill everything. A lot of frames in this game have the potential to wipe maps clean. The fact this player immediately labels Saryn as OP clearly shows that he will not be having a very good time in the long run.

So my examples do count and are valid. Calling them a "Straw-man" is dishonest.

37 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

I killed nothing throughout the entire mission because someone killed everything before I could. I was so bored I got up and made myself a cup of tea.

And like I said, there are plenty of frames and weapons that can do what Saryn does but in different flavours. Say for example, if MrRixter was in a mission with Equinox. He'd still likely complain because she kills everything with her Maim, if not initially, then with her AOE blast. Or perhaps your own Monkey. What if he gets annoyed by how much range Primal Fury has and how much damage it can do? You're zipping around killing things and he's just grumbling. If this was a post about Wukong, I have no doubt you'd not be on the OP's side. And before you say "It's not about Wukong though, it's Saryn" bear in mind that exposes your bias/hypocrisy. You could also be killing enemies before he can with Wukong.

Also, there are always some enemies that spawn in rooms. If you're just sitting there, letting other players kill everything without doing much effort to find some yourself in another part of the map, then you have little ground to stand on. Also, for the record I will remind you that OP went into a Sortie somehow expecting not to encounter high-level players.

37 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

No new player goes into a mission with the expectation to actually not be able to play the mission.

You act like Saryn press one button and every enemy everywhere simply dies. You do know that moving to another room makes enemies spawn in said room, so there is always enemies avaliable. They don't just spawn in one location. If the Saryn follows MrRixter into different rooms, then that still doesn't justify a nerf as again; plenty of other frames have that capability as well.

The ironic thing you are making a very strong case against getting powerful mods or maxing out your builds at all since there is no point if new players come in and are not happy with them, since they have the capability to nuke enemies.

24 minutes ago, Cubewano said:

Coming into a game and expecting to be able to actually play is about as far from arrogance as one can get. This isn't some vanity piece about "how dare someone be stronger than me", it's a bout a player literally going into a piece of content and being completely cut off being actually able to play due to another player.

The thing is, he isn't. He can easily go into another room and make enemies spawn there, or he can go solo or put together a squad from recruitment, both of which take little to no time at all. Still can't believe people don't know those options exist. If you want to play with randoms, then you simply have to be prepared to roll the dice.

24 minutes ago, Cubewano said:

It's honestly awful you are trying to look down on someone for wanting something as basic as being able to actually play the game they are here to play. 

I'm looking down on him because it's a very selfish post that boils down to "I'm really bored because these veterans are using their maxed builds, they should be nerfed". There are plenty of ways he can enjoy the game both with a Saryn and without one. Please see to the options I listed above.

Veterans shouldn't have to suffer because new players find that their maxed out builds make a mission boring for them, when there are plenty of workarounds for it. MrRixter is going to have an incredibly hard time when he discovers all the other nuke frames and one-shot, max range weapons.

Edited August 5, 2019 by TheGodofWiFi

[(PSN)NewcastleDisease]

vor einer Stunde schrieb Cubewano:

just because you say she is enough doesn't make it reality. she invalidates fields of play, negatively impacts co-operative play, and breaks balance to the extent of pushing out entire class roles. if you can somehow find a way to argue that is balanced, feel free, but i'll have a mighty hard time seeing how clearing rooms of enemies without even having to see them while completely restructuring the games balance curve is anything other than woefully imbalanced and overpowered. 

equinox maybe, nekros less so, and to the same ease/efficiency? debatable. why? the earlier issues of game balance, co-operative play, and role diversity. why water down the entire game for a handful of flawed designs? emphasis on handful, there aren't as many over performers as you seem to be painting there to be. equinox, saryn, volt, octavia (for somewhat alternate reasons), and mesa are the only notable standouts, some more than others. 

better game balance, more engaging gameplay, healthier co-operative play, better design/role diversity and viability. as for what her purpose would be after a rework, that'd be up the those reworking her, she could remain the same as a dps with background utility or she could become more support oriented, a debuffer/tank maybe, whose to say. there are many roles aside from being a map clearer, and without the map clearing they all become pretty viable. 

that's not the issue, nor would it resolve any issues. the frame doesn't exist in a vacuum unto itself. 

 

you don't really get what i have written.

co-op is just perfekt with Saryn. Yes, you will kill the entiry map on low level with her abilities. but you get here Blueprint on SEDNA. this is lvl 30-40. a normal mod Saryn on lvl 30-40 will make your enemies weaker, which it is why she is actually a great frame for co-op. you can use her 1 to help friends, your 2 to draw attention from them, your 3 to have some meele fun, and her 4 to support your squad if to many enemies spawn.

again: yes you can make her a killing frame for almost all lvl with the right mod. but you can do the same with eqinox which kills everything on the map with his aura, or a banshee, with her sound quake. just to get some examples. no one complain about them, but saryn is the bad frame? why?

aaand again: it is not game balancing to just cut off every frame. it is not healthier in co-op to just have frames which can't do mass control. it will just cut frame off there abilities. but thats what make them unique. saryn as EVERY other frame has to be played right to get use out of here potential. this has nothing to do with balancing. Or do you want also nerf all Weapons which has a high damage, just because new players do not have the same powerful weapons? And the mods which make them so.

or to make another example: Limbo. I HATE TO PLAY WITH LIMBO. why? because i get in his buble and can't hit enemies or farm loot in it. so i have to wait or go out. every time. 20-60 times on a defense with a Limbo. THIS is annoying. But i don't say: hey, cripple Limbo, make his best Power unusable because it s?%ks. I just do not play with Limbo Players. Why? Because Limbo Players like the way they play. I don't so i let them do.

But you want to restrict Players just because.

Edited August 5, 2019 by (PS4)NewcastleDisease
typo

[Cubewano]

1 hour ago, FaithRose said:

With Limbo the rift seems to be a problem. It can block enemy attacking and stop interaction with consoles to name a few. Excalibro, I've seen a few folks complain about people jumping out in operator and going afk. With Wukong Celestial Twin, I've already seen people complaining about room clears with the twin and the staff. We even had someone come flying by with their twin using catchmoon (it looked like) and wiping out the Index.

Why is blocking enemies attacking a problem? The interaction issues I can agree being a problem, and it's a miracle DE hasn't done anything about it up to now, but I believe many are on board for changes to that. (Operators are the current inbetween for when Limbos cast their four over consoles) Afk'ing is not a supported behavior and is a reportable offense actually, so one should just report such players, it isn't a backed up behavior by the dev team. And where have you seen these complaints, and how is the room clear being done? I've yet to see any grievances of this sort given the lack of aoe and range for the frame honestly. As for the twing using a catchmoon, any player can use that weapon, it's not really specific to Wukong now is it? 

1 hour ago, FaithRose said:

But your focus in the replies for me was only success. You asked me why I am focusing on the negatives to support my concerns. It's the same you use the success to support yours. I hadn't heard you say (unless I missed it) that reworks have failed so maybe a rework can go wrong. That's what I was trying to pointing out. I am also pointing out what others who experienced for both versions of Saryn's said and there are supporting claims that her nuke was much worse before.

I was offering you a full perspective, since you only seemed to note a specific failure, of course I wasn't requoting that failure back to you since you already mentioned it as that'd be pointless. It was already a present/acknowledged piece of information.

1 hour ago, FaithRose said:

I'm not ignoring you at all. The statement is made in response to several posts here that are from people who call her "boring" or say that "nuke frames have no place" etc etc. You yourself said that she feels like more of a nuisance to you, that you are cheating through the game, and that it grows old fast for you. Nevertheless, I feel sort of the same though, that you are ignoring the points I also have. I'm sorry, but as a person who really likes Saryn, if I don't speak up for a frame I DO enjoy and I DO like playing regularly....I am going to sit idly by and watch a frame I do happen to have fun with, destroyed. You see an issue...I don't. 

Then going forward I'd prefer you maybe address my responses in specific when responding to well...my responses, so that our discussion can move forward? And where do you feel I have ignored your points? I'd be perfectly happy to address anything I've missed. 

1 hour ago, FaithRose said:

As for cooperative gameplay, again there are other solutions that are being ignored because some folks just want a nerf/rework. If these kinds of things ruin co-op play for you....then please take an option to not play with them? Why is that not even considered?.....instead the dislike of some to play with a frame should mean a change for everyone? That's pretty intense. There are many other options for coop play including clans, friends, and maybe one day a more detailed looking for group. I'm just over done with crying for nerfs every time someone doesn't think a frame should exist in the game the way it does. I still don't see how nuke frames even ruin the majority of game play. Can you please give me instances of every aspect she ruins to make it the majority? If the frames weren't meant to exist...they wouldn't be made.

I already explained why that wasn't an option earlier in our conversation:

3 hours ago, Cubewano said:

That isn't really an option though is it? Frames don't exist in a vacuum, and their designs and powers affect the development of future content, and the balance of that content, they even affect the balance of other frames. Toggling them off as a personal pick doesn't undo those impacts, and doesn't put an end the designs they more or less necessitate by proxy of their existence. 

it's also not really a solution but just a shifting burden to lock people out public play so that you can maintain your preferences. 

1 hour ago, FaithRose said:

As for the nullifiers, yeah I can try and take them out but in higher level maps/missions quite a few spawn. I enjoy using spores with miasma and the nullifiers seem to negate both. I normally run her 1,3 and 4.

 Just get any high rof weapon to burst their bubbles at the minimum, they really shouldn't be that much of an obstacle, at least not on the basis of their bubble. 

[Hexsing]

Personally I'm playing either Trinity or Wisp.  Mainly Wisp.  But I still drop down my stuff for a Saryn so she can do her job better.  With Wisp I can increase the attack speed of a saryn and also use the stun to pretty much lockdown everything.  And with EV I can keep the Saryn doing what they do best which is nuke.

 

I still feel useful.

[(PSN)Elvenbane]

21 minutes ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

I am not being selfish by pointing out how you can't just expect people to stop using the gear they have worked hard to make, simply because you find it boring.

You are absolutely right, and I don't think anyone is expecting or advocating restraint on the part of players; it's not the tool user's fault, it's the tool giver's.