Mesa poor ability design

[Enchillado]

Let me start with a little quiz:

1. Does anyone even use her Ballistic Battery?
2. How does that feel to you? Are you comfortable with this ability's control?
3. Do you find it useful enough to be bothered with?
4. What do you think about its visual design and amount of expression of the thematic?

Ok. I might be a little bias here, certainly harsh. But I honestly think this ability delivers very little in any aspect I've mentioned except maybe plain "Eh... It potentially increases my DPS... Just a little, but... She's a gunslinger... Emm... It buffs her one gunshot after eternity... Um... This is a first ability, it shouldn't bee too good... Emm... We have Peacemaker anyway... ... K bye".

Let me introduce to you something that nails all the problems you might find frustrating about Ballistic Battery. We're taking some of it, then throwing Ballistic Battery into a dumpster, replacing it with Quickdraw.

Quickdraw (First Ability, 25 energy)

When this ability is disabled, Mesa stores 26% / 32% / 40% / 50% of total damage inflicted by her gunfire up to 300 / 500 / 700 / 1000. When activated, Mesa quicky draws her Regulators and shots first two targets she aimed at dirrectly, dealing damage based on stored damage with each shot.

Mechanics:

• Separate HUD element always shows the percentage of damage stored (0-100%) and plain number (for example, it shows "559 / 1000").
• The damage of one shot is 0-100% of Regulators' damage. Shots are affected by Regulators' stats and mods.
• Power Strength increases percentage and storage capacity past 100% (past 300 / 500 / 700 / 1000).
• Can be activated again to cancel the ability. Can also be canceled with a button that changes weapons.
• Can shoot with a press of attack button (to use punch through if you have one and to shoot one target twice).
• Shoots once with each Regulator. Quickly holsters Regulators after two shots.
• If activated when reloading your primary or secondary weapon, the reload is finished instantly after holstering Regulators.
• Can be used in Peacemaker to simply discharge the Quickdraw for extra damage, bypassing all the mechanics above.

This is a lot of text, but both calculations and gameplay would be intuitive, comfortable, and simple if you think about it. Most of the text here is to eliminate misunderstanding and enhance the visual picture.

Edited August 3, 2019 by Enchillado

[Rawbeard]

you might be literally the only person playing this game who even cares that Mesa has 4 abilities. most would probably not even notice if everything but Peacemaker was removed without replacement.
calling it poor design makes you sound like you missed what Mesa is about, though. good luck getting taken seriously.

[Enchillado]

22 minutes ago, Rawbeard said:

you might be literally the only person playing this game who even cares that Mesa has 4 abilities. most would probably not even notice if everything but Peacemaker was removed without replacement.
calling it poor design makes you sound like you missed what Mesa is about, though. good luck getting taken seriously.

Yeah, I might have called it boring instead of poor. Just as boring as a cool talk about the concept of the whole character being narrowed to a single ability. Don't see any point in such a pessimistic outburst though. All you did is inexplicitly claimed that there is no need in any other ability and everyone's fine with playing easy because it works, not even stating any personal opinion (talking for others, not for yourself). If you're right, it would be easily seen through the topic history. So thanks for nothing, I guess.

[User_Anonymus]

37 минут назад, Rawbeard сказал:

you might be literally the only person playing this game who even cares that Mesa has 4 abilities. most would probably not even notice if everything but Peacemaker was removed without replacement.
calling it poor design makes you sound like you missed what Mesa is about, though. good luck getting taken seriously.

Woah there, pal. You talk about other people sounding like something, but YOU sound like a person who approves of DE making obvious mistakes in character design. If a warframe is heavily centered around the ultimate, it's other abilities should be complementing it. Since Warframe (the game) was made with 4 abilities in mind, every character should have 4 abilities that a player would want to use. If a community is ignoring everything except the ultimate, it doesn't mean that Misa's genuis design is so streamlined and perfect that she doesn't need the first three buttons. It means that first three buttons aren't designed good enough to be used, WHICH IS BAD. Misa doesn't have one big button instead of four, she has FOUR buttons at her disposal. There was a time when abilities were mods which you could take out of the warframe to free space for another mod. That mechanic kinda suggested that not every ability should be 100% viable and you, as a player, are free to dump those you don't really need. Those times are gone. Now every button that you want to ignore while playing a character is an oversight, staring at you from the HUD. Every unused button is a BAD thing that should be, in the best case scenario, RECTIFIED.

[selig_fay]

Her first ability dont should have a limit on the accumulation of damage. This won't make it very useful, but sniper lovers can appreciate such mechanics.

[hellodownthere]

Ok her 1 does need to be looked at imo

her 2 is fine it disarms enemies and gives allies a damage increase 

her 3 is her survivability 

her 4 is why she's called a gunslinger...

 

Mesa is fine where she is save for her 1 and tbh her 4 is fine (though i miss the old 4, but that was OP tbf)

[JazaJ]

1 hour ago, Rawbeard said:

you might be literally the only person playing this game who even cares that Mesa has 4 abilities. most would probably not even notice if everything but Peacemaker was removed without replacement.
calling it poor design makes you sound like you missed what Mesa is about, though. good luck getting taken seriously.

What? Her 2 and 3 are both great abilities, pretty sure people would "notice" if they were removed. And tbh, her 1 is poor design since it has a very, very limited use. Charge with a # of shots from a weapon, release with one bullet. It doesn't work well with her kit since when would you use it considering she can mow down everything with her 4.

 

But considering a lot of the older frames have a filler ability on their 1, it's not much of an issue. I'd like to see her be able to augment her 4 with her 1. Once Peacemaker is activated you can swap between higher fire rate with lowered damage and lowered fire rate with higher damage. Or something along those lines.

[(XBOX)KayAitch]

6 hours ago, Enchillado said:

Quickdraw (First Ability, 25 energy)

When this ability is disabled, Mesa stores 26% / 32% / 40% / 50% of total damage inflicted by her gunfire up to 300 / 500 / 700 / 1000. When activated, Mesa quicky draws her Regulators and shots first two targets she aimed at dirrectly, dealing damage based on stored damage with each sho

It's a good idea, but I think the storage mechanic is always going to be a poor fit for a frame whose damage is all about fire rate.

How about:

Dead Eye

Tag up to 2/4/6 targets for 25 energy each for 4/8/12s. Targets get a marker that everyone can see.

Marked targets take 5/10/15% additive critical chance from all hits from anyone.

In addition, all Peacemaker hits will be headshots (if the head is visible).

 

Edited August 3, 2019 by (XB1)KayAitch

[Tiltskillet]

From the title I really expected this to be about how her whole kit taken together is poorly designed.  One near useless ability, two nearly passive abilities, and one very powerful but not terribly engaging ability. 

 IMO. 😉

[Enchillado]

17 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

From the title I really expected this to be about how her whole kit taken together is poorly designed.  One near useless ability, two nearly passive abilities, and one very powerful but not terribly engaging ability. 

 IMO. 😉

The ability that I've focused on is underperforming, unpleasant to use and far-fetched. There is no doubt it's bad, so I'm pretty confident with my suggestions. I really like Peacekeepers after reasonable nerf that requites some input now, but the other two abilities left unmentioned while also being terrible from a design standpoint. Just knowing that they are pretty useful, I didn't want to meet any aggression from fanboys while delivering something less arguable to them (despite the clickbaity title). Consider this the first step of a journey. But yeah, Shooting Gallery is just as far-fetched and stupid circus as Ballistic Battery, while third is boring, to say the least. BUT THEY WORK AM I RIGHT

[Tiltskillet]

Just now, Enchillado said:

BUT THEY WORK AM I RIGHT

THAT THEY DO, GOOD SIR.  THAT THEY DO.

And she sure seems plenty successful from a popularity standpoint.  I just think all four abilities could use some work, and it really could be done without disrupting how people already like to play her.  Make the 1 worthwhile--barely anybody uses it now anyway.  Keep the 2 and 3 basically the same, but add an active effect for using them before the duration ends. The 4 is trickier, and would probably best be handled through another augment so that people who love it the way it is can keep on playing the same way.  (And honestly, even the current version wouldn't bother me nearly so much if her other three abilities were more engaging.)

Anyway, most of that isn't likely to happen considering how popular she is already, and how many unpopular frames need the attention as much or more than she does.  Making her 1 better is probably the most likely, and would indeed be a small improvement to the game.  So...good luck to you. Consider my long /offtopic  a free bump.  🙂

[Lone_Dude]

I use it from time to time and I think it's a bad ability. But instead of reworking it completely it would be better if DE just tweaked it properly. Gave it something like punch through or AoE, made it so it works with Gunblades or so it stores inflicted status effects and releases them at once on hit. It's augment needs some tweaking too, with the way current weapons are, 100% status on 1 shot is not something crazy good.

This ability requires you to store damage, then trigger it again and then hit an enemy after aiming manually(when used out of the peacemaker mode), it's not like you press 1 and get an immediate effect, you can outright waste it easily too and it only lasts for 1 shot - for something that requires so much effort compared to other abilities, it's rather underwhelming. But it certainly is a good ability on paper.

[Birdframe_Prime]

You know, Ballistic Battery would actually be a more functional ability if it just buffed more than one shot. For example, if it buffed for a fixed few seconds (that can't be extended by mods) then it would be a timed buff to actual DPS, which is something DE already balances weapons for.

That way, the charge-up and release mechanic would actually have a more definitive pay-off, compared to something that can, at most, hit once for higher damage, and at worst... miss.

Heck, you get a timed buff, then even the Augment is actually functional too, because adding Status to the charged damage would mean you could not only hit harder, but you could also make some weapons hit for guaranteed Status for that time (like projectile weapons) and be capable of chewing down a group of enemies instead of just single-point damage.

[Enchillado]

On 2019-08-03 at 9:59 PM, Tiltskillet said:

most of that isn't likely to happen considering how popular she is already

I think the same way. As a developer, I would also give such things a lowest priority, no matter how reasonable it is.

This topic is mostly to test if anyone even wants to have one extra tool for a playstyle different from a sentry-gun. I find my idea pretty strong in terms of design appeal and gameplay feel. This ability would be used for very fast skirmishes and feel great especially at 30-60 levels any player fights against no matter how close he is to the "endgame". Almost like lesser Peacekeepers with a completely different control.

Min-maxers are probably gonna ignore this anyway, but people who tend to seek for fun will enjoy such a thing, I guarantee.

[DCaedus]

Well... I agree that her 1 is pretty much irrelevant and very much would like to see it buffed in some way.

However I'd say you should change the title of this thread to something more specific like "Mesa's Ballistic Battery (1st ability) needs a buff". I was about to skip this thread entirely, only clicked on it to leave a laugh react because I thought you were complaining about all of Mesa's abilities. 

But yeah, again, I would pretty much like to see Mesa's 1 buffed in some way, either higher the damage cap or make it stack faster (or both).

One thing I would really love them to do is make Mesa's 1 more viable for Eidolons (as I like Eidolons, people who don't obviously won't care.)

Anyway, since there's nothing to stack damage on Eidolon runs they would have to change it so it starts stacking damage with time when you first press 1 (kinda like Void Strike) and then release the damage stacked on the next weapon shot after you press 1 again.

[TeaHawk]

Ballistic Battery is patently useless. I totally agree on this. However, I don't think you need to replace it with... that quick draw thing... Shooting two random enemies in range is unreliable by design of peacemakers. I'd rather had duration-based dmg buff.

However, beware of DE.

Each time we ask them to fix one ability, they kinda nerf all the others.

Edited August 5, 2019 by TeaHawk

[TeaHawk]

2 hours ago, Syq111 said:

is very very reason why all 3 looks bland because 99% who play mesa are just press 4 and BANG!! BANG!!and they are solely surprised that they dying in middle of their mindless shooting

If they don't use 3 they are stupid.

[Enchillado]

On 2019-08-04 at 3:27 PM, Birdframe_Prime said:

You know, Ballistic Battery would actually be a more functional ability if it just buffed more than one shot. For example, if it buffed for a fixed few seconds (that can't be extended by mods) then it would be a timed buff to actual DPS, which is something DE already balances weapons for.

That way, the charge-up and release mechanic would actually have a more definitive pay-off, compared to something that can, at most, hit once for higher damage, and at worst... miss.

Heck, you get a timed buff, then even the Augment is actually functional too, because adding Status to the charged damage would mean you could not only hit harder, but you could also make some weapons hit for guaranteed Status for that time (like projectile weapons) and be capable of chewing down a group of enemies instead of just single-point damage.

That idea would make you feel bad for using any weapons whose fire rate is not the main attribute. Since the bonuses it gives are flat, balancing that around a timed buff would give us pretty annoying dependencies and conditions, making this just another uninteresting damage buff you would feel obligated to spam, while controls are pretty stiff. And generally, it would be one more ability that's never used in any strategic way or some special situation, it's just always up, just like 2 and 3... Well, who am I kidding, 4 is almost up there with them lol

[Birdframe_Prime]

27 minutes ago, Enchillado said:

That idea would make you feel bad for using any weapons whose fire rate is not the main attribute.

Since all weapons are balanced around their DPS in the first place, no, it wouldn't. An equal damage boost to each shot from each weapon will inherently balance out over the few seconds.

[selig_fay]

il y a 58 minutes, Birdframe_Prime a dit :

Since all weapons are balanced around their DPS in the first place, no, it wouldn't. An equal damage boost to each shot from each weapon will inherently balance out over the few seconds.

One weapon makes 2 shots per second, the other 18. At the moment, 1 high damage shot is balanced, as it does not depend on the type of weapon. But once you give high damage for a few seconds - Hello DPS Grakata.

This ability only needs to remove the damage accumulation limit. Your suggestions just give a reason to nerf her 4 ability in favor of buff 1 ability.

Although there is another way. The ability to shoot the entire store of weapons for 1 shot. True, I don't know how to link it to her 4 ability.

[Teridax68]

On 2019-08-03 at 12:28 PM, User_Anonymus said:

If a community is ignoring everything except the ultimate, it doesn't mean that Misa's genuis design is so streamlined and perfect that she doesn't need the first three buttons. It means that first three buttons aren't designed good enough to be used, WHICH IS BAD.

I have to agree with this. While Mesa does have three usable abilities, which is more than can be said for several other frames (looking at you, Revenant), she is one of the most clear-cut examples of a press-4-to-win frame right now, with a kit that doesn't really synergize with itself so much as just give Mesa all the tools a frame needs to be successful in the current metagame. Mesa needs an update to her kit so that she can have a more interesting playstyle than just activating two long-duration steroids and then spamming 4 every fight. 

In this respect, I very much like the proposed change to Ballistic Battery, because it looks like it would make the ability usable. While I would personally remove the damage cap and make the bonus apply to Mesa's next shot regardless of weapon (which would include both her regular weapons and Peacemakers), the core idea of making the stored damage apply passively, rather than upon activation, I think is exactly what would fix the ability, as currently it's not great to have to manually set the ability to be charged up for some later occasion, particularly when the damage bonus is not particularly impressive either. Beyond that, there's probably changes and improvements to be made to the rest of her kit, but this in itself would be a change that would be easy to implement and highly effective at making her kit feel more complete.

[Birdframe_Prime]

10 hours ago, zhellon said:

At the moment, 1 high damage shot is balanced, as it does not depend on the type of weapon

No, that's inherently not balanced because while the exact additive number may be the same, the actual damage you deal out is not. The current method is the opposite of being balanced.

[(PSN)Black-Cat-Jinx]

At the very least ballistic battery should be retooled in such a way that it makes multishot irrelevant, letting you mod her weapons for pure damage...

Maybe either fully charging gives you a period of significantly increased damage until you burn it down, or else it creates a multishot percentage based on how high the charge is that drains as you use it.

[Enchillado]

On 2019-08-06 at 4:08 AM, Teridax68 said:

I have to agree with this. While Mesa does have three usable abilities, which is more than can be said for several other frames (looking at you, Revenant), she is one of the most clear-cut examples of a press-4-to-win frame right now, with a kit that doesn't really synergize with itself so much as just give Mesa all the tools a frame needs to be successful in the current metagame. Mesa needs an update to her kit so that she can have a more interesting playstyle than just activating two long-duration steroids and then spamming 4 every fight. 

In this respect, I very much like the proposed change to Ballistic Battery, because it looks like it would make the ability usable. While I would personally remove the damage cap and make the bonus apply to Mesa's next shot regardless of weapon (which would include both her regular weapons and Peacemakers), the core idea of making the stored damage apply passively, rather than upon activation, I think is exactly what would fix the ability, as currently it's not great to have to manually set the ability to be charged up for some later occasion, particularly when the damage bonus is not particularly impressive either. Beyond that, there's probably changes and improvements to be made to the rest of her kit, but this in itself would be a change that would be easy to implement and highly effective at making her kit feel more complete.

I thought the cap is needed to implement passive accumulation with a calm mind. Otherwise, the exploit is obvious. This would allow players to go even further beyond some ridiculous oneshot set-ups with guns like Rubico. However... Now that I think about it, you can still oneshot any boss phase if you're prepared and equiped for it. Maybe the cap is redundant. It still bothers me a bit that this is 25 energy ability that has unlimited potential without a cap.

[Teridax68]

13 minutes ago, Enchillado said:

I thought the cap is needed to implement passive accumulation with a calm mind. Otherwise, the exploit is obvious. This would allow players to go even further beyond some ridiculous oneshot set-ups with guns like Rubico. However... Now that I think about it, you can still oneshot any boss phase if you're prepared and equiped for it. Maybe the cap is redundant. It still bothers me a bit that this is 25 energy ability that has unlimited potential without a cap.

Sure, but the cost here isn't just paid in Energy, it's based on the effort you've put into charging the ability up by damaging enemies. The real resource you are expending here is the stored damage, so in all cases you're paying a fair price, and the near-totality of bosses now have multi-phased health bars, so that even if you accumulate a billion damage in the first phase you're not going to one-shot them.