Waframe Sliding Towards Less Fun

[limorkil]

Maybe it's me, but I feel like this game is just getting more tedious and less enjoyable over time.  It was the best game I've ever played a few years ago, but now I often find myself reluctant to play it.

It's not the grind.  At least, it's not only the grind.  I think it's more that a lot of the mechanics are frustrating rather than fun.

Just some examples of what I mean by frustrating:

(1) Orb Vallis.  Enemies repeatedly knock you over or in the air.  Basically, stun locked.  There is only one way I can play it, but I don't want to say what it is in case it gets nerfed.  I absolutely love Plains of Eidolon though, except:

(2) Thumpers on POE.  Hey they knock you down and stun you a lot.  And, they are very tedious to fight because when you get down to the last leg they always turn so that the leg is away from you, so the fight devolves into running round and round them until they pause briefly before releasing knockdown waves.

(3) Arbitrations.  Ancient healers are bad enough, but now we have drones that make enemies near them completely immortal.  Not to mention, there's no revives so if you fail to avoid a grenade then that's mission over (I understand there is a revive mechanic in groups, but that sounds frustrating as well).

(4) Orokin Vaults.  On the one hand, you can do these solo now, which I suppose I should be happy about.  But having to run with 4 dragon keys equipped is so tedious.  You move slow, and you have to comb the level looking for the vault at a slow speed.  Not so bad the first few times, but I've run it over 40 times trying to get the corrupted mods and now it makes me grit my teeth to have to do it again.

(5) Filler activities, such as Fishing and Hunting.  Actually don't mind the fishing so much because it "works as advertised", but hunting is a buggy mess.  On POE you can go out at night and do these things in relative peace, but Orb Vallis is a nightmare of constant Corpus interruptions.  I wouldn't mind because I could choose not to do these, but ...

(6) Nightwave.  The turd-cherry on the crap-cake.  "Hey, you know those activities you avoid because they make the game less fun?  Well, now you have to do them because it's the only way to get these enticing rewards and open up this story."  Some of these "challenges" are ok, mainly because it's stuff you're doing anyway, but look at all the TEDIOUS things many people wouldn't do any more than the bare minimum otherwise: Fishing, Hunting, Mining, Long Survival Runs, Open 3 caches in Sabotage, Lua vaults, Orokin vaults, silver ghosts.  Every Sunday it's like receiving a list of chores from my boss.   Sure, it's better than Season 1, but that doesn't actually make it fun.

(7) Rivens.  No problem with the basic concept, but the challenges?  Really a test of patience.  "Get 3 consecutive headshots in a single aim glide", "Sythesize a Symaris target without using traps or abilities alone with a hobbled dragon key equipped", "Kill 2 dragyn pilots before they hit the ground while aim gliding".   

(8) Baby-Sitting AI.  Anyone else noticed that the way missions are made more difficult is to replace static defense objectives with NPCs that essentially walk into danger and get themselves killed.  Escort quests are a RPG trope that everyone makes fun of, but Warframe seems like embrace this mechanic.  Rescue missions are the absolute worst and I avoid them like the plague, but a lot of defense missions seem to be morphing into the same thing.

At this point it probably should seems like I'm raging about the game being "too hard" or something.  That's not what I mean.  What I mean is, the challenge is overcoming TEDIUM not real difficulty.  Stun-locks, boss invincibility phases, undodgeable attacks, energy drains, slows, instant kill moves - these are all examples of mechanics that make a game frustrating to play.  And it seems like Warframe is quickly becoming a collection of these mechanics. Sure, Warframe has always had most of these, I just mean that it seems like they are taking over the gameplay.

[TARINunit9]

3 minutes ago, limorkil said:

On POE you can go out at night and do these things in relative peace, but Orb Vallis is a nightmare of constant Corpus interruptions.

I've found that to be the opposite. On Plains I'm either constantly attacked by Grineer or constantly attacked by Vomvalysts. On the Vallis Corpus patrols spawn much further away and much less frequently

[Renegade343]

5 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

I've found that to be the opposite. On Plains I'm either constantly attacked by Grineer or constantly attacked by Vomvalysts. On the Vallis Corpus patrols spawn much further away and much less frequently

Tell that to the Corpus during my conservation runs. Damn patrols seem to drop in once I get to calling/locating.

[sharkstrangler]

I completely agree with you. Whenever I try to make a point that the entire point of a Video Game is Entertainment, and by principle it's supposed to be designed to be fun,

there will always be that one guy that's like "If you don't like the game not being fun, play something else" as if a game being not fun at many points is OK and should be accepted, and if you don't like it, leave. (Sounds similar to something said by a certain US politician)

A game should be fun. And yeah, me and other like the grind Warframe offers, cause most of the time, it's fun. But stuff that literally impedes on you having fun in a game is never welcome.

Edited August 3, 2019 by sharkstrangler

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

31 minutes ago, limorkil said:

Maybe it's me,

Well, let's take a look before jumping to conclusions. 

32 minutes ago, limorkil said:

(1) Orb Vallis.  Enemies repeatedly knock you over or in the air.  Basically, stun locked.  There is only one way I can play it, but I don't want to say what it is in case it gets nerfed.

Is it the Vaykor Sydon? I bet it is. If not, then Sure Footed. If not then Atlas. If not then Rhino with his Iron Skin on, and then... PAYBACK, every time they stomp, you stomp and see who quits first. 

Wait... That's more than one. Weird. 

35 minutes ago, limorkil said:

(2) Thumpers on POE.  Hey they knock you down and stun you a lot. 

I am noticing a trend here. Did you just never figure out how to deal with this sort of thing? Because I tend to take them on mostly by myself and then just mark the drops. 

Most of what you are on about is just a matter of figuring out how to do it without the headaches. Why is this a problem? 

39 minutes ago, limorkil said:

Maybe it's me,

You know what? Let's just go with that. 

[(PSN)CommanderC2121]

15 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Well, let's take a look before jumping to conclusions. 

Is it the Vaykor Sydon? I bet it is. If not, then Sure Footed. If not then Atlas. If not then Rhino with his Iron Skin on, and then... PAYBACK, every time they stomp, you stomp and see who quits first. 

Wait... That's more than one. Weird. 

I am noticing a trend here. Did you just never figure out how to deal with this sort of thing? Because I tend to take them on mostly by myself and then just mark the drops. 

Most of what you are on about is just a matter of figuring out how to do it without the headaches. Why is this a problem? 

You know what? Let's just go with that. 

Does the vaykor sydon cause immunities to knockdowns or something?

[(XBOX)zThulsaDoomz]

1 hour ago, limorkil said:

(6) Nightwave.  The turd-cherry on the crap-cake.  "Hey, you know those activities you avoid because they make the game less fun?  Well, now you have to do them because it's the only way to get these enticing rewards and open up this story."  Some of these "challenges" are ok, mainly because it's stuff you're doing anyway, but look at all the TEDIOUS things many people wouldn't do any more than the bare minimum otherwise: Fishing, Hunting, Mining, Long Survival Runs, Open 3 caches in Sabotage, Lua vaults, Orokin vaults, silver ghosts.  Every Sunday it's like receiving a list of chores from my boss.   Sure, it's better than Season 1, but that doesn't actually make it fun.

 

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

25 minutes ago, (PS4)CommanderC2121 said:

Does the vaykor sydon cause immunities to knockdowns or something?

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Vaykor_Sydon

Players gain bonus 50% chance to resist Knockdown or knockback when wielding the Vaykor Sydon

☝️

[Lutesque]

1 hour ago, limorkil said:

 

(3) Arbitrations.  Ancient healers are bad enough, but now we have drones that make enemies near them completely immortal. 

Uhm.... No.... they are not Near Immortal. They are straight up Completely Immortal. They way Arbitration Drones interact with specialised units like Healers, Nullifiers, Scrambuli and Mutalist MoAs makes them borderline unkillable.... if only temporarily (long enough to kill the Defense Operative)

The way this game is being designed is just so lazy.... its one thing to turn off Warframe Abilities but outright turns off our ability to kill anything at all ? Isn't that alil broken....

And the worst part is uou can't even test or practice against it because Arbitration Drones don't work in the Simulacrum....

1 hour ago, limorkil said:

  

(8) Baby-Sitting AI.  Anyone else noticed that the way missions are made more difficult is to replace static defense objectives with NPCs that essentially walk into danger and get themselves killed.  Escort quests are a RPG trope that everyone makes fun of, but Warframe seems like embrace this mechanic.  Rescue missions are the absolute worst and I avoid them like the plague, but a lot of defense missions seem to be morphing into the same thing.

This is just DE's round about way of nerfing Tank Frames because alot of them aren't easy to kill deep into Endurance.

1 hour ago, limorkil said:

At this point it probably should seems like I'm raging about the game being "too hard" or something.  That's not what I mean.  What I mean is, the challenge is overcoming TEDIUM not real difficulty.  Stun-locks, boss invincibility phases, undodgeable attacks, energy drains, slows, instant kill moves - these are all examples of mechanics that make a game frustrating to play.  And it seems like Warframe is quickly becoming a collection of these mechanics. Sure, Warframe has always had most of these, I just mean that it seems like they are taking over the gameplay.

+1

And its going to get worse....

Look.... fun is subjective.... but come on.... I've never seen anyone get repeatedly knocked down making this face:

 

[DatDarkOne]

1 hour ago, Lutesque said:

because Arbitration Drones don't work in the Simulacrum....

^This is one of the main reasons no one should only depend the Sim only for Testing

[(PSN)CommanderC2121]

2 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Vaykor_Sydon

Players gain bonus 50% chance to resist Knockdown or knockback when wielding the Vaykor Sydon

☝️

Hmm, is it while the sydon is equipped or while its being physically held?

[(XBOX)CaligulaTwily]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)CommanderC2121 said:

Hmm, is it while the sydon is equipped or while its being physically held?

Wow, that might actually make it useful lmao, I'd bring that to a few missions tbh just for that 

[S.Dust]

Im gonna be honest with you warframe never had things to do that mattered. We've all grinded for stuff that realistically makes no difference, primes are barely an upgrade, arcanes are overkill, and nothing in the game requires much effort once you have ok mods. There is no challenge which means everything we do in game is pointless, it's why the joke fashion frame is end game is actually taken seriously, because there is genuinely nothing better to do. Nightwave is just DE's way of wasting player time in order to actually get something out only for it to be another new player playground. The open worlds are a joke due to the fact they are empty for the most part and lack anything that effects game play outside of them making them their own little isolated game.

Every problem warframe has stems from the lack of actual difficulty or an actual goal to work towards, if the game constantly had new stuff coming out to do this wouldn't be felt as hard but it doesn't so thats why the game feels like trash.

All the tedium you mentioned for the most part are not a problem past a point like there are really no stun locks, slows are not common, and energy drain is not so common that it's a problem and can be countered with zenurik or energy pads or killing the eximus draining the energy.

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

1 hour ago, (PS4)CommanderC2121 said:

Hmm, is it while the sydon is equipped or while its being physically held?

These days I get the impression that it's pretty much always being held because of how blocking works. Either way, it's stats make it easy to find a use for, and it's gimmick, (while I admit that I find it annoying to pull off), can be a nice party trick. 

1 hour ago, (XB1)aMichealMeyers said:

Wow, that might actually make it useful lmao, I'd bring that to a few missions tbh just for that 

TBH I used to use it a lot around the time when Fortuna dropped. Never really understood what all the whining was about. 

But that's the nature of the game. We have all of these wonderful toys to play with, and can choose what we want to use to make our lot easier. Pay close attention to the whining we get so much of, and you'll see that it often goes hand in hand with complaints about not being able to use kit that's unsuited and the the task, and claims that xyz gear is the best and the rest is trash (despite the obvious fact that the gear isn't doing as good job as lots of other combinations). 

[(PSN)FriendSharkey]

I just wish they'd add more giant monsters to fight....I swear I'm looking forward to Death Stranding just for the cat and mouse with giant freaky beings from beyond... I just wish when you walked out of that gate or Elevator in POE or OrbVallis that when you heard those thunderous foot steps you really felt a moment of pause and apprehension...

Edited August 3, 2019 by (PS4)FriendSharkey

[Learicorn]

5 hours ago, limorkil said:

(8) Baby-Sitting AI.  Anyone else noticed that the way missions are made more difficult is to replace static defense objectives with NPCs that essentially walk into danger and get themselves killed.  Escort quests are a RPG trope that everyone makes fun of, but Warframe seems like embrace this mechanic.  Rescue missions are the absolute worst and I avoid them like the plague, but a lot of defense missions seem to be morphing into the same thing.

I KNOW RIGHTTTTT I THOUGHT NOBODY WAS GONNA TALK ABOUT THIS. Whenever i see a defense mission i get so excited and ready to bring my Frost but then i see that it's gonna be NPC babysitting and just roll my eyes instead.

Now that we're on this topic can we delete Defection

[Ikyr0]

I agree with some of your points. I think overall Warframe is terribly designed, and DE just slaps bandaids on big problems without ever resolving the core problems.

I do actually enjoy fighting OV's Corpus. Getting knocked down and one-shot by a lvl 135 is as challenging as this game gets. 

Arbitrations are a bit too easy.

Edited August 3, 2019 by Ikyr0

[LarryYourWaiter]

Sure Footed says hello

edit: i use power drift and constitution, myself

Edited August 3, 2019 by LarryYourWaiter

[kuciol]

If they would want to adress those issues you have here than we would end up with a game that is no longer Warframe. How do you solve those issues when you have ukillable tanks like Inaros and Nidus or even Trinity on one end and then Banshee on the other that will die if something looks at her funny. How you balance enemies if you have Nova and Saryn on that will nuke and destroy everything and then you have Vauban that just cant. Your problems come from the way Warframe as a whole operates. Thats the problem of games with such diversity. They are impossible to balance and make challenging. You will make it challenging for 10 frames? Others will trivialize it or become useless. You can see glimpses of that in tridolon fight.

[Tinklzs]

On 2019-08-03 at 12:05 PM, limorkil said:

Maybe it's me, but I feel like this game is just getting more tedious and less enjoyable over time.  It was the best game I've ever played a few years ago, but now I often find myself reluctant to play it.

It's not the grind.  At least, it's not only the grind.  I think it's more that a lot of the mechanics are frustrating rather than fun.

Just some examples of what I mean by frustrating:

(1) Orb Vallis.  Enemies repeatedly knock you over or in the air.  Basically, stun locked.  There is only one way I can play it, but I don't want to say what it is in case it gets nerfed.  I absolutely love Plains of Eidolon though, except:

(2) Thumpers on POE.  Hey they knock you down and stun you a lot.  And, they are very tedious to fight because when you get down to the last leg they always turn so that the leg is away from you, so the fight devolves into running round and round them until they pause briefly before releasing knockdown waves.

(3) Arbitrations.  Ancient healers are bad enough, but now we have drones that make enemies near them completely immortal.  Not to mention, there's no revives so if you fail to avoid a grenade then that's mission over (I understand there is a revive mechanic in groups, but that sounds frustrating as well).

(4) Orokin Vaults.  On the one hand, you can do these solo now, which I suppose I should be happy about.  But having to run with 4 dragon keys equipped is so tedious.  You move slow, and you have to comb the level looking for the vault at a slow speed.  Not so bad the first few times, but I've run it over 40 times trying to get the corrupted mods and now it makes me grit my teeth to have to do it again.

(5) Filler activities, such as Fishing and Hunting.  Actually don't mind the fishing so much because it "works as advertised", but hunting is a buggy mess.  On POE you can go out at night and do these things in relative peace, but Orb Vallis is a nightmare of constant Corpus interruptions.  I wouldn't mind because I could choose not to do these, but ...

(6) Nightwave.  The turd-cherry on the crap-cake.  "Hey, you know those activities you avoid because they make the game less fun?  Well, now you have to do them because it's the only way to get these enticing rewards and open up this story."  Some of these "challenges" are ok, mainly because it's stuff you're doing anyway, but look at all the TEDIOUS things many people wouldn't do any more than the bare minimum otherwise: Fishing, Hunting, Mining, Long Survival Runs, Open 3 caches in Sabotage, Lua vaults, Orokin vaults, silver ghosts.  Every Sunday it's like receiving a list of chores from my boss.   Sure, it's better than Season 1, but that doesn't actually make it fun.

(7) Rivens.  No problem with the basic concept, but the challenges?  Really a test of patience.  "Get 3 consecutive headshots in a single aim glide", "Sythesize a Symaris target without using traps or abilities alone with a hobbled dragon key equipped", "Kill 2 dragyn pilots before they hit the ground while aim gliding".   

(8) Baby-Sitting AI.  Anyone else noticed that the way missions are made more difficult is to replace static defense objectives with NPCs that essentially walk into danger and get themselves killed.  Escort quests are a RPG trope that everyone makes fun of, but Warframe seems like embrace this mechanic.  Rescue missions are the absolute worst and I avoid them like the plague, but a lot of defense missions seem to be morphing into the same thing.

At this point it probably should seems like I'm raging about the game being "too hard" or something.  That's not what I mean.  What I mean is, the challenge is overcoming TEDIUM not real difficulty.  Stun-locks, boss invincibility phases, undodgeable attacks, energy drains, slows, instant kill moves - these are all examples of mechanics that make a game frustrating to play.  And it seems like Warframe is quickly becoming a collection of these mechanics. Sure, Warframe has always had most of these, I just mean that it seems like they are taking over the gameplay.

#1 #2 - That is why we have mods that help counter such things. Typically if you have something that you find annoying that is giving you trouble there is a mod to help counter that mechanic. In this case Handspring or surefooted/prime surefooted.   Or utilize warframe's unique parkour system and evade those knockdown mechanics entirely.

#2 Bring a heavy hitting radiation weapon (like catchmoon), as for revolving around them, slow them down (nova, equinox) or stun them (harrow, nova, .. rhino's #4?) etc. Or roll with a friend or a group. It's a bit trickier solo but can be done, just requires more planning if you do it solo.

#3 Shoot them. Just.. Just shoot them. Be it a grenade launcher if your too lazy to aim, a catchmoon, even the arca plasmor if you feel the need. Using something other than a nukeframe ability is okay, the world won't end. I actually like these enemies because they're a real threat if you leave them alone, but they don't attack you and they aren't tanky. And by killing them, you deal damage to everything around them - a win win.

#4 Eh, I'm okay with them being soloable - but I still prefer teams.  Nezha/Titania are great for movement with all 4 keys, I'm happy those two can even bypass the hobbled key lack of movement, otherwise you'd have a point. 

#5 I enjoy fishing, I find it kind of relaxing (like I did in my Days of WoW). Conservation is a mixed bag depending on where you're at. If on the vallis, when you get to the 'den' you look around and kill stuff in the immediate area then you lure them in. Otherwise, you will have a bad time.  In PoE the thumpers can spawn and cause some issues, other than that PoE is slightly easier than vallis.

#6 I agree to an extent, somethings are tedious or boring in their own right. I don't particularly like finding sabotage caches, and I really don't like 'gilding' anything when I've built all the amps already (I feel that would should be changed along with a few others).  However, there are some that help bring you out of your comfort zone and help you explore the game. Like capturing different conservation animals, fighting the hydrolyst (did my first one due to that challenge), etc.   Even 30 and the old 60 min survivals aren't that difficult, just group up with someone (recruit chat) and have fun with it, you only have to do it  once.

#7 I'd actually prefer many of the challenges to be more in-depth and frankly harder. The riven challenges (assuming you don't use the cheatsheet guides across the internet) test your knowledge of the game. Every challenge is technically cheesable in some form or another, the only time it 'sucks' is when you get a challenge you don't have the equipment for. But even if you can't do it immediately you can hold onto the riven or sell it (because they're always worth plat).   We need more challenge in Warframe, mainly to test our knowledge and have something to overcome, not more bugs to squash underfoot.

#8 You have two 'real' options with rescue. Bring limbo and banish the rescue target and then moonwalk dance to the extraction point, or bring a mobility frame (or just be good with parkour) and get to the extraction point in a reasonable time. Since the rescue target teleports to you after all.   You could take the third option and 'kill everything' but that takes more time.   As for sortie/arbitration defense targets, limbo to banish them or a nukeframe to kill everything before it can blink or a heal frame (giving them an actual purpose).  We have options here, you just have to find one that fits you. 

 

I see your perspective and agree somewhat, but because DE gives us a way out in most cases (having a frame to perfectly fit the riven challenge at hand be it riven, rescue target etc.) or a mod to help deal with a problem we might be having (toxin damage on low health frames for example) then you bring toxin resistance mod, healing arcanes for your operator etc.   The nice thing about warframe is the flexibility in building, weapons/frames and synergy between all of these tools, but that's mainly due to how easy the game is as a whole.

[Avienas]

18 minutes ago, Tinklzs said:

#1 #2 - That is why we have mods that help counter such things. Typically if you have something that you find annoying that is giving you trouble there is a mod to help counter that mechanic. In this case Handspring or surefooted/prime surefooted.   Or utilize warframe's unique parkour system and evade those knockdown mechanics entirely.

• Its a major shame due to most setup loadouts, Most will outright ignore cramming a slightly capacity expensive mod to band-aid fix for a slightly specific issue. Especially if its not 100% immunity to it where primed surefooted is still going to put you in a slight stun animation when it procs, Plus you can`t pay attention to certain enemies all the time when most default into very similar designs that unless you check thar names, you may not even know which one it is, much less have much care to remember what it does, less it has a bane of your existence ability like nullifiers or ancient heaers to remind you how much you despite them. This is pretty much honestly why i prodded at the idea that D.E. needs to redesign modding to retain some potential power people are getting right now while also having extra utility based slots where people can`t slot whatever mod they want into it, to allow players to actually THINK on how to customize things.
• Ultimately, when one is given too much freedom on things, they will likely skip out on utility based things to say, improve a handgun`s handling, how fast it can be reloaded or even the ability to aim smoother, if they can simply just keep sticking barrels on it, despite it being highly unrealistic and if no actual repercussions are present, they will gladly wield a handgun with a dozen barrels, shooting shot at a non-stop, recoil-less speed, to where it doesnt matter if half the shots missed. The thing likely in your sights is likely more swiss-cheese then actual swiss cheese.

18 minutes ago, Tinklzs said:

#2 Bring a heavy hitting radiation weapon (like catchmoon), as for revolving around them, slow them down (nova, equinox) or stun them (harrow, nova, .. rhino's #4?) etc. Or roll with a friend or a group. It's a bit trickier solo but can be done, just requires more planning if you do it solo.

• If a person has to bring a loadout specifically made to counter thumpers, then it basically further restricts what people may want to play instead, where they loadout they want to bring might be especially more useful for bounty based missions. Plus Grineer are usually going to be shot with Corrosive, even if Radiation is generalized enough to work with almost every enemy type, people like the ability to strip grineer armor or even use the Viral+Slash cheese to melt thru things. One of the better counters to having to use a off-based element for a specific enemy faction with a unique enemy type would just to use archguns, which HONESTLY, was needed to tear thru a space-ship classed armor hull with profit taker, should likely have similar impact to the thumpers by letting us use those super powered weapons to just blaze a hole straight thru the thumpers then have to shoot key points to just cause them to overheat. If you introduce an annoying enemy type, it should have ways of being able to handle it more effectively, at later points, without needing to sacrifice loadout choices.

18 minutes ago, Tinklzs said:

#3 Shoot them. Just.. Just shoot them. Be it a grenade launcher if your too lazy to aim, a catchmoon, even the arca plasmor if you feel the need. Using something other than a nukeframe ability is okay, the world won't end. I actually like these enemies because they're a real threat if you leave them alone, but they don't attack you and they aren't tanky. And by killing them, you deal damage to everything around them - a win win.

• If you are on pc its not an issue to shoot them, but its the fact they can make a whole squad of enemies completely damage immune, where it takes more then just one shot to kill them at times. Even if it causes knockdown to all of the connected enemies, it can still let a bunch of very annoying enemy types get a free pass to get across the map and too close to a priority defense target or get close enough  to absolutely wreck you with cc measures, auras and what not. This is kind of why i vouch on the idea that instead of just outright making enemies connected to them completely immune to damage (which does not help you can only shoot the drones to kill them), it should of INSTEAD just did a massive hampering on warframe abilities being able to damage/debuff them(maybe gun-fire too but then it would need a gimmick to NOT stack with ancient healers for obvious reasons), which lets them still be annoying, but atleast gives you the chance to brute force the enemies down with an extra number of attacks.

18 minutes ago, Tinklzs said:

#4 Eh, I'm okay with them being soloable - but I still prefer teams.  Nezha/Titania are great for movement with all 4 keys, I'm happy those two can even bypass the hobbled key lack of movement, otherwise you'd have a point. 

• Vault keys are still fine aleast and are kind of dated for me. You can easily solo as a Loki or something by using parkour, just not something i actively try to do since like everything non-riven mod related on PS4 warframe, the values are so low, that even if the demand is high, it would not be that fun to grind dozens of them to sell.

18 minutes ago, Tinklzs said:

#5 I enjoy fishing, I find it kind of relaxing (like I did in my Days of WoW). Conservation is a mixed bag depending on where you're at. If on the vallis, when you get to the 'den' you look around and kill stuff in the immediate area then you lure them in. Otherwise, you will have a bad time.  In PoE the thumpers can spawn and cause some issues, other than that PoE is slightly easier than vallis.

• If i had a drug-addict like rush to collect floofs, i might still be doing it, but just like with plenty of particular content, i outright do not care for them that much at all, cept when nightwave requires me to bag a few. The fact you cannot color code the tracks to avoid the frustrating of seeing white prints on white snow is annoying, plus sometimes the echo-lure part can be janky. Getting enemies to suddenly pop up is also why i normally use a stealth frame like ivara to just avoid the harassment and them scaring the animal away or something.

18 minutes ago, Tinklzs said:

#6 I agree to an extent, somethings are tedious or boring in their own right. I don't particularly like finding sabotage caches, and I really don't like 'gilding' anything when I've built all the amps already (I feel that would should be changed along with a few others).  However, there are some that help bring you out of your comfort zone and help you explore the game. Like capturing different conservation animals, fighting the hydrolyst (did my first one due to that challenge), etc.   Even 30 and the old 60 min survivals aren't that difficult, just group up with someone (recruit chat) and have fun with it, you only have to do it  once.

• Though yeah its nice to have reason to do them and that D.E. did not take the sheet move and make each daily only last 24 hours, which basically means a even nastier pressure on doing them. Plus a difference of being out of your comfort zone and doing something extremely BLEH, like silver grove specters or require you to take more then 24 entire hours to complete, unless its a elite type, is very annoying on some ends. Not everyone is a fan of doing a entire round of grinding again on something or something that requires alot of time to work on (like a modular weapon) or even grind a mote amp to simplify it, where your mostly just leeching in hydron at that point by grinding a amp to gild it for a single mission.
• HONESTLY, things like gild a modular weapon and other super frustrating challenges should only have the ability to appear ONCE and only ONCE in that nightwave season, if D.E. has not taken the measures to have that in place already. But still they could be tune better by just making it a single forma and just get rid of the gild a item challenge.

18 minutes ago, Tinklzs said:

#7 I'd actually prefer many of the challenges to be more in-depth and frankly harder. The riven challenges (assuming you don't use the cheatsheet guides across the internet) test your knowledge of the game. Every challenge is technically cheesable in some form or another, the only time it 'sucks' is when you get a challenge you don't have the equipment for. But even if you can't do it immediately you can hold onto the riven or sell it (because they're always worth plat).   We need more challenge in Warframe, mainly to test our knowledge and have something to overcome, not more bugs to squash underfoot.

• If the rewards are worth it, then a in-depth, challenging, challenge or mission is justified. But if it degrades its worth after the first few times, it basically is just frustration, which is added more to what the value of opened rivens be, even if its 5/5 disposition heatsword, where tacticalpotato recently did a video that mentioned how a FREAKING heatsword can still be used to butcher rather chunky enemies without even needing a riven. Combine that with the fact that even if a riven has 1/5 disposition, it can sell for thousands of plat, just because its a popular weapon & its stats are rather garbage even if it has all the god roll lines, its kind of saddening on why i wish we just had a riven market system where instead of the b.s. that is market chat, players could actually more efficiency buy/sell/trade rivens and people with not-so-popular weapons but good stats actually have a chance to trade/sell them with other players so they aren`t completely locked away from the riven marketing, just because they keep getting trash weapon rivens, despite them once again, having basically max positive disposition.

18 minutes ago, Tinklzs said:

#8 You have two 'real' options with rescue. Bring limbo and banish the rescue target and then moonwalk dance to the extraction point, or bring a mobility frame (or just be good with parkour) and get to the extraction point in a reasonable time. Since the rescue target teleports to you after all.   You could take the third option and 'kill everything' but that takes more time.   As for sortie/arbitration defense targets, limbo to banish them or a nukeframe to kill everything before it can blink or a heal frame (giving them an actual purpose).  We have options here, you just have to find one that fits you. 

• Sadly in any public group or sometimes with grouped people, you will usually get that one person who is slow but still ignores the rescue target after it goes down, meaning you have less then 30 or so seconds to quickly rush back thru what could be hundreds of meters of pathing before it dies. It would honestly be nice if rescue or defense targets in these situations had some more durability, not the ones who actually HAVE scaled up stats based on the map level, but the ones who are hyper squish to where the breeze from a bullet would kill them.

18 minutes ago, Tinklzs said:

 

I see your perspective and agree somewhat, but because DE gives us a way out in most cases (having a frame to perfectly fit the riven challenge at hand be it riven, rescue target etc.) or a mod to help deal with a problem we might be having (toxin damage on low health frames for example) then you bring toxin resistance mod, healing arcanes for your operator etc.   The nice thing about warframe is the flexibility in building, weapons/frames and synergy between all of these tools, but that's mainly due to how easy the game is as a whole.

• In plenty of cases its not that D.E. gave us a way out, but that we had such a large selection to work with, it was not that difficult to find ways to resolve things. Even more so when setups can be found that is completely over-looked by d.e. on to cheese new content to the point it could be soloed (Multiple Tridolon takedown as a Volt says hi). Plus you can say FLEXIBILITY, but that only applies in much earlier warframe or a player does not own all the norm used setups which for the most part, have devolved into a near mirror like setup for most weapon loadouts, with only when there is no reason to build for critical & critical damage on the weapon & the 8th slot has to be used for something to fix a major issue a weapon had, like Pyrana Prime, where if you do not slap steady hands on, you are gonna have some janky recoil due to the multishot from lethal chamber and its own passive making it worst, triple so if you use a arcane velocity. Plus most arcanes can easily be ignored still since why would you bring arcane avenger when you can bring arcane grace? Why would you bring a arcane for a specific weapon type when its more beneficial to bring arcane guardian to not get downed as often due to the huge armor bonus that make even trinity without blessing active, able to stay alive for much longer?
• Its only thanks to very particular nichie builds in very particular content that certain things even get put to use, since how often do you see players using arcane nullifier, outside of eidolons? How often do you see people use elemental resistance mods in place of adding more effective power to a warframe ability in a general environment? Too many things to say honestly.

[.Dracula.]

On 2019-08-03 at 11:05 AM, limorkil said:

At this point it probably should seems like I'm raging about the game being "too hard" or something.  That's not what I mean.  What I mean is, the challenge is overcoming TEDIUM not real difficulty.  Stun-locks, boss invincibility phases, undodgeable attacks, energy drains, slows, instant kill moves - these are all examples of mechanics that make a game frustrating to play.  And it seems like Warframe is quickly becoming a collection of these mechanics. Sure, Warframe has always had most of these, I just mean that it seems like they are taking over the gameplay.

Real quick, in your opinion what do you think would be an actually engaging boss? I always see people on the forums and only the forums talk about how bosses like the Eidolons and the orbs aren't 'real endgame' bosses even though I personally enjoy fighting all of them, yet I never see anybody ever describe what an engaging boss to them actually is. Immunity phases are common things in MMO games, yet for some reason in warframe it's a problem. There are a lot of Destiny 2 raid bosses that work in a similar way. Shoot specific body part to break their immunity, yet I see literally no complaints from the D2 community about the raid bosses not being good enough.

[-NightmareMoon-]

[Awazx]

Yes, I agree with OP. Warframe has fallen on a slippery slope for some time, and it is getting worse.

[CastIronNest]

39 minutes ago, -NightmareMoon- said:

-snip-

I feel personally called out by that bottom-right space.