I feel like Trinity should probably get at least part of her nuke back.

[(PSN)Black-Cat-Jinx]

For one, right now, trinity has basically become "ESO leach prime". A frame who's only contribution is keeping volt and saryn fed with energy while providing you absurd amounts of focus or quick leveling gear... 

I realize that her nuke was maybe a little too strong all things considered but there were pretty specific physics you need to use to work with it. Given that as it stands, most of the frames people bring into ESO are mostly frames where the skills do the work for you, rather that be volt, saryn, rhino, the mechanics of the game mode are such that what weapon you bring is mostly irrelevant. It's also a nuke that given the fact that you can kill your self if you do it wrong, it actually means there's a legit risk reward system.

Meanwhile you let Chroma and other frames that benefit from self harm exploit your self damage physics. I feel like it's time you either return Trinity's nuke, or remove the self damage physics from the game entirely. One or the other. Because if other frames are allowed to benefit greatly from self damage, so should she. And if you don't want warframes exploiting self harm physics? There's a simple solution for that. Remove. Self harm physics. It's not like anyone likes having them....... Oh sorry. Those literal 5 people like having it. 

Giving trinity her nuke back does not mean you will no longer have saryn and volt reigning as gods over ESO. It just means that trinity will actually have an actual role in the game beside *energy vamp, energy vamp, link, energy vamp, energy vamp, blessing, energy vamp, energy vamp, link, energy vamp, energy vamp, blessing.* You've managed to turn Trinity into the single most boring class in the game to play. objectively. oh sure everyone likes having one around because wheee unlimited energy and health................. she is none the less, the most boring frame to play, because literally her optimal use is to just do what i described, over and over again, while letting everyone else have all the fun.

Either return the trinity nuke, or get rid of self damaging weapons in their entirety. 

[(XBOX)GodMasterTP]

The best tank in the game, that has health regen and energy regen, and now high damage too...  

Do you see how bad it looks when someone is saying that instead of you? 

Edited August 5, 2019 by (XB1)XG1anBl4derX

[(PSN)Black-Cat-Jinx]

6 minutes ago, (XB1)XG1anBl4derX said:

The best tank in the game, that has health regen and energy regen, and now high damage too...  

Do you see how bad it looks when someone is saying that instead of you? 

A combination tank and healer. You get the most out of her............. by doing nothing. The class is boring. As hell. If you set up a macro or soemthing to just press those buttons over and over you can literally just go afk and let other people play the game for you. But if you're actually having to play an event solo, good luck, and if you get matchmade with three other trinities then gods help you.

[GinKenshin]

23 minutes ago, (PS4)Black-Cat-Jinx said:

A combination tank and healer. You get the most out of her............. by doing nothing. The class is boring. As hell. If you set up a macro or soemthing to just press those buttons over and over you can literally just go afk and let other people play the game for you. But if you're actually having to play an event solo, good luck, and if you get matchmade with three other trinities then gods help you.

that's not the class' fault, a support is pretty much common in all games similar to this one. this game though doesn't put too much focus on support but more on nuking. this isn't a reason for the exploit to come back though, it was a dumb mechanic 

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

She’s a healer not a nuker.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

Just now, moostar95 said:

🤡Honk honk. Last I check being support is damn near dead thanks to the large amount of tools and mods we got. 

But a Trinity is always welcome.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

Just now, moostar95 said:

Well she is unneeded but in hunts and eso. I never see one outside of those anymore. The nerf was foolish due to how uber popular saryn got for doing the same. 

All you do is cry about Saryn dude. So what if people build her for max strength and go to hydron. She’s still not as bad as Banshee who deleted enemies before they even left the doors. At least with a Saryn you can contribute to the killing a little.

[(XBOX)GodMasterTP]

1 hour ago, moostar95 said:

🤡Honk honk. Thanks for the joke but the last I check being support is damn near dead thanks to the large amount of tools and mods we got. 

The majority tends to prefer that. Supports are less and less played these days because:  

1- If a game is designed with support classes in mind, you will surely need them when you don't want to.

2- They tend to be boring as hell.

[Xzorn]

I hear guns do damage.

Seriously though ESO should not be used as any standard. It's the exact opposite direction this game should be going.

Quality > Quantity will always be a superior game play experience.

[Xepthrichros]

5 hours ago, (PS4)Black-Cat-Jinx said:

For one, right now, trinity has basically become "ESO leach prime". A frame who's only contribution is keeping volt and saryn fed with energy while providing you absurd amounts of focus or quick leveling gear... 

I realize that her nuke was maybe a little too strong all things considered but there were pretty specific physics you need to use to work with it. Given that as it stands, most of the frames people bring into ESO are mostly frames where the skills do the work for you, rather that be volt, saryn, rhino, the mechanics of the game mode are such that what weapon you bring is mostly irrelevant. It's also a nuke that given the fact that you can kill your self if you do it wrong, it actually means there's a legit risk reward system.

Meanwhile you let Chroma and other frames that benefit from self harm exploit your self damage physics. I feel like it's time you either return Trinity's nuke, or remove the self damage physics from the game entirely. One or the other. Because if other frames are allowed to benefit greatly from self damage, so should she. And if you don't want warframes exploiting self harm physics? There's a simple solution for that. Remove. Self harm physics. It's not like anyone likes having them....... Oh sorry. Those literal 5 people like having it. 

Giving trinity her nuke back does not mean you will no longer have saryn and volt reigning as gods over ESO. It just means that trinity will actually have an actual role in the game beside *energy vamp, energy vamp, link, energy vamp, energy vamp, blessing, energy vamp, energy vamp, link, energy vamp, energy vamp, blessing.* You've managed to turn Trinity into the single most boring class in the game to play. objectively. oh sure everyone likes having one around because wheee unlimited energy and health................. she is none the less, the most boring frame to play, because literally her optimal use is to just do what i described, over and over again, while letting everyone else have all the fun.

Either return the trinity nuke, or get rid of self damaging weapons in their entirety. 

She's great if you like Counterstrike against brain dead AI in space with near invincibility.

Other than that, she's boring AF. Her nuke should return, yes. To allow for more options in her gameplay cos now she's a one-trick boring thing. 

But I'm sure all those people gushing over Dog Days (basically a boring CS water gun fight against bots with all the things that make warframe great, being disabled, i.e mods, abilities, guns, melee) will disagree with you on this matter.

Edited August 5, 2019 by Xepthrichros

[TeaHawk]

Played Trinity. Got bored playing here. All work and no fun. And in terms of healing you have better options. Therefore Trinity at current state is basically an energy-capsule. Nothing more.

Nuke should definitely be an option.

[DCaedus]

I quite liked that Trin could be such a versatile frame, I didn't play Nuke Trin myself, but many people including some of my friends loved it, it added variety to the game.

Also it was fun to use Saryn 1 augment and make them kill themselves.

[(PSN)Black-Cat-Jinx]

5 hours ago, Xzorn said:

I hear guns do damage.

Seriously though ESO should not be used as any standard. It's the exact opposite direction this game should be going.

Quality > Quantity will always be a superior game play experience.

With all do respect, i acknowledge your point. But i also acknowledge that i literally never saw Trinity's Nuke /anywhere/ except eso.  Nobody used it on defense missions or survival or frankly any mission I ever experienced in the game outside of ESO. I suppose it might show up in the new Jovian content which is just another form of ESO really but minus the easy focus grind. But on the whole, Trinity's nuke lived inside ESO. So... If we're not going to base our game decisions around eso, they literally nerfed Trinity's one fun aggressor skill into the ground for no reason other than "dunno, unbalances eso, might make people less likely to play Saryn every single freaking time.

"*puts on trinity, loads into ESO* Oh look, three saryn primes, im about to get a buttload of focus.......................... And have absolutely no fun."

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

8 hours ago, moostar95 said:

And all you do is defend DE at their at most S#&$ty mistakes in every thread I see you in.

What are you talking about? Every chance I get I bring up how badly they screwed up Revenant or How Much Serene Storm sucks. I don’t defend DE unless the reason is genuinely legitimate.

[Xzorn]

4 hours ago, (PS4)Black-Cat-Jinx said:

With all do respect, i acknowledge your point. But i also acknowledge that i literally never saw Trinity's Nuke /anywhere/ except eso.  Nobody used it on defense missions or survival or frankly any mission I ever experienced in the game outside of ESO. I suppose it might show up in the new Jovian content which is just another form of ESO really but minus the easy focus grind. But on the whole, Trinity's nuke lived inside ESO. So... If we're not going to base our game decisions around eso, they literally nerfed Trinity's one fun aggressor skill into the ground for no reason other than "dunno, unbalances eso, might make people less likely to play Saryn every single freaking time.

"*puts on trinity, loads into ESO* Oh look, three saryn primes, im about to get a buttload of focus.......................... And have absolutely no fun."

 

I wasn't really agreeing or disagreeing with her Link nuke.

I'm indifferent but more so just used to DE nerfing the dumbest things. *Looks at Ember*. It's more the fact she was nerfed because of a specific mission and OP wants her back for that specific mission. I'm against that type of "balancing" concept from both sides of this. In that I think we're on the same page.

Personally I think ESO is a dumpster fire of a mission type. It was intended to be something else but was abducted as a Focus farm and it kinda shows.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

25 minutes ago, moostar95 said:

Right, you are the guy that is becoming a part of this side of the community that would much rather see frames gone then fixed. You have this rep of wanting rev gone and adding garbage reasons why he should. All while you tend to forget people like frames and would heart broken for all the forma and time investment people put into.  As much as I don't like saryn, never in my life would I ever want her gone. Balanced yes. Deleted no. You and that Data guy really need to understand perspective alot more better. Having to get on that clown about frames many and I like simply for not being uncooperative friendly saryn. 

1. Every criticism I and other people have about Revenant is valid. He’s a busted mess of themes and abilities that don’t go together.

2. I have joked that I wouldn’t mind if DE just deleted Revenant from the game (and I honestly doubt anybody would be truly heartbroken over losing him, and DE could just refund the forma). But I’d much rather see him be reworked into a proper Eidolon frame instead of DE leaving him as the weird Vampire Abomination he is now. You have to recognize that by now that I play out my hatred for Revenant as a joke while maintaining the facts that justify said hatred. Did I mention I hate Revenant? Because I do. A LOT.

3. It’s ironic that you’re criticizing me for “lacking perspective” when you’re the one that’s complaining that a DPS frame is actually dealing damage. Is she complete overkill at lower levels? Yes, but she’s a later game frame and performs as such. Not to mention she is far from the only frame that can wipe the floor with a mob of level 40s.

 

Edited August 5, 2019 by (XB1)GearsMatrix301

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

7 minutes ago, moostar95 said:

so native. Defend your S#&$ty behavior and just say #*!% off to those that like him. Also saryn as she exist right now makes playing as anyone nearly redundant. 

Well not everyone can be a Saryn at the same time. Different Saryns spores don’t really get along.

On the more serious note. The rest of the squad is not redundant when there’s a Saryn. She provides armor strip and scaling DoT. That still leaves room for Str8 up Damage, healing, other buffs, crowd control, tank. Saryn isn’t this god tier frame that can replace every other frame in the game. She’s just the best at what she currently provides, and what she currently provides is very effective in modern day Warframe. Your complaints on her are overblown.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

56 minutes ago, moostar95 said:

And all becomes irrelevant with a overextended and high strength build. If saryn needs help, that player is awful. The only time she needs help if a support. ( ironically because we are talking about how rare it is to have a trin in game nowadays.) Also I'm not alone pal, three new topics about this frame and how she effects the nature of the star chart content. You know, what most players do.) Not my fault you don't see how truly awful this game design is.

The only other person I’ve seen complain about Saryn recently was a new player. And a good Saryn is going to massively outperform a noob.

And while I agree that aspects of this game aren’t designed well you don’t add anything to go the debate by constantly crying about Saryn anytime any other topic is brought up about other frames performances. Just let people talk about that frame and stop trying to undermine their points with “Oh well Saryns OP and won’t be changed so why should DE do anything about this frame”. All it does is create instances like this where you derail the thread and for what? Absolutely nothing.

[TehGrief]

On 2019-08-04 at 9:14 PM, (PS4)Black-Cat-Jinx said:

I realize that her nuke was maybe a little too strong all things considered.

You've managed to turn Trinity into the single most boring class in the game to play. objectively.

The true issue is that this ability was being exploited. The original intention was for the ability to redirect incoming damage from enemies back at them, not to detonate explosives at your own feet and sheepishly watch as things fell over.

Each and every warframe has their place in the game - it's easy to see how playing a frame suited for specific content outside of that content could subjectively be considered boring.

 

On 2019-08-04 at 10:02 PM, GinKenshin said:

that's not the class' fault, a support is pretty much common in all games similar to this one. this game though doesn't put too much focus on support but more on nuking. this isn't a reason for the exploit to come back though, it was a dumb mechanic 

I would have to agree. 

I have always been in favour of clear and distinct class design - a support frame should have support abilities, not damage abilities. It would be in the games best interest (not to mention balance purposes) for Trinity to remain a pure support-class frame. 

[Teridax68]

10 hours ago, TehGrief said:

I have always been in favour of clear and distinct class design - a support frame should have support abilities, not damage abilities. It would be in the games best interest (not to mention balance purposes) for Trinity to remain a pure support-class frame. 

I personally feel the opposite way about class design, not just in Warframe but in general: the moment one starts to define a support class around purely supportive abilities, that class tends to become extremely niche and boring to most players, and such a rigid class structure tends to be pretty limiting in terms of the design one can implement, which is for example why World of Warcraft struggles to make its 36 specs each distinct and viable at the same time when each of them can only do one of three things. In Warframe I also don't really think it makes sense to define warframes around classes when most current frames don't really fit neatly within any traditional class structure -- most support frames tend to have some pretty solid damage output, for example, and don't need allies to do decently in a fight.

With all that said, though, I can fully agree that Trinity in particular does satisfy the niche of the traditional support/cleric, as a frame with relatively limited damage output but tremendous protective powers. In this respect, I would agree that she shouldn't need a nuke to be viable. If even as non-nukey a frame as Trinity needs a nuke to be viable in the current environment, to me that would be all the more reason to not give her one, and instead reevaluate the game's current design and balance so that we shouldn't have to design frames with mandatory effects just to be considered worth using (durability is another, though at least Trinity's always had that). This point in time is perhaps the first time in Warframe's history where Trinity has become anything except god-tier, and so only due to some extremely specific advances in the meta that have made her less essential, namely more common access to healing and Energy generation, and an emphasis on damage and personal survivability. Even then, she still has her place in ESO and Eidolon hunts, so while I fully agree that there's plenty that could be done to improve Trinity (her 1, 2 and 3 shouldn't need any animation locks whatsoever, and could all be converted to one-handed actions, or even an animation-less action for Link), making her a nuker on top of the best Energy provider and healer in the game I don't think is the way of going about it.

Edited August 6, 2019 by Teridax68

[TehGrief]

11 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

I personally feel the opposite way about class design, not just in Warframe but in general: the moment one starts to define a support class around purely supportive abilities, that class tends to become extremely niche and boring to most players, and such a rigid class structure tends to be pretty limiting in terms of the design one can implement, which is for example why World of Warcraft struggles to make its 36 specs each distinct and viable at the same time when each of them can only do one of three things.

While I understand that specializing characters to do one thing really well generally makes them only valuable in niche circumstances, I do not see this as negative.

With the game continuously moving forward and adding new characters (currently more than forty ingame), I believe it is imperative that each of the characters have defined roles; even if that role is a hybrid between multiple roles - sacrificing certain tactics to achieve others instead. However, looking back to Trinity, she could even be tweaked to be more supportive and continue to remove her outgoing damage from abilities. Especially when we look at her official codex entry:

Quote

"Trinity is a support-based Warframe. Her abilities favour restoration and preservation over destruction."

 

11 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

With all that said, though, I can fully agree that Trinity in particular does satisfy the niche of the traditional support/cleric, as a frame with relatively limited damage output but tremendous protective powers. In this respect, I would agree that she shouldn't need a nuke to be viable.

Well said; she doesn't need to be more powerful than she already is.

[Teridax68]

1 hour ago, TehGrief said:

While I understand that specializing characters to do one thing really well generally makes them only valuable in niche circumstances, I do not see this as negative.

With the game continuously moving forward and adding new characters (currently more than forty ingame), I believe it is imperative that each of the characters have defined roles; even if that role is a hybrid between multiple roles - sacrificing certain tactics to achieve others instead. However, looking back to Trinity, she could even be tweaked to be more supportive and continue to remove her outgoing damage from abilities. Especially when we look at her official codex entry:

Unique identities and niches I can absolutely agree are essential to making any character, class, warframe, etc. stand out -- if there's not a single thing the character is known for among the rest, that they do that nobody else can, or that they at least do better than everyone else, what's the point? Case in point, frames with specialized effects like Chroma, Trinity, Harrow, and so on all stand out in at least one piece of content, whereas overly generalized frames like Revenant, Khora, or even Wisp have sharply dropped in popularity following their release and balance changes, as they have no real niche.

However, with all that being said, I do think the definition of an identity or niche here is important, because there's a critical difference here between a niche and an archetype, and the two are in fact opposed: when you define an entire subset of characters around a single type of mechanic, to the exclusion of others, the only differentiating factor that remains is how those characters do that mechanic differently. If nukers were allowed to have no utility, durability, or CC, you'd end up with over a dozen frames that'd all tread on each other's toes, and thus struggle to find a niche, because their only way of expressing their identity would be through high damage, which by itself can only really be implemented in a relatively limited number of ways. Similarly, defining certain frames exclusively around the ability to apply utility, and refusing to give them access to damage, survivability, etc., would also homogenize that subset, and bring us back to the same problems as old-school MMO archetypes. By contrast, allowing for more nuance, and letting frames mix and match different facets of different traditional archetypes, generates unique combinations of mechanics that are much more able to stand out as unique identities.

Worth mentioning that even Trinity, the closest Warframe comes to a pure support, isn't exactly "pure" by MMO standards, as she is also one of the most survivable frames in the game, and can operate as a tank (and is in fact the only tank with innate infinite health, shields and Energy sustain). Despite this, however, she still has an immediately recognizable identity and niche, one that does not really include nuking or any real amount of damage as a part of it. In addition to her niche, though, she is also a capable and useful frame in the near-totality of content, and I do think that degree of independence is useful, as it allows the frame to be played outside of the places where they're especially good: if a frame as specialized as Trinity can do perfectly fine in most content, including high-level content, the same should apply to the others, and when a frame is so niche that they struggle to be valuable outside of hyper-specific mission types, or in any content at all (e.g. with CC-centric frames like Nyx or Vauban), that generally indicates a problem with either the frame itself or the game's systems, where either the frame needs to be made a bit more independent (Vauban deserves to be more versatile, even if it means he no longer gets allowed to lock down the entire map through ability spam), or the game needs to accommodate a greater variety of niches (currently damage and durability are considered mandatory to a frame's viability, which is presumably what also spurred this thread's request to make Trinity a nuker, on top of everything she does already).

Edited August 6, 2019 by Teridax68

[(PSN)NemitheNem]

On 2019-08-04 at 8:14 PM, (PS4)Black-Cat-Jinx said:

For one, right now, trinity has basically become "ESO leach prime"

Sorry, that's still Limbo Prime. 

I once had a guy who went into the rift and walked a meter away, and then back

[Xepthrichros]

Just to add to my earlier thoughts here.

Bring back Trinity nuke. But since this is not part of her so-called predefined role, just make the self-damage nuking a part of her augment. So her augment mod actually opens up a different way to play and has some "balance" since it requires one mod slot to work (implying this is necessary when we have clearly better nukers in the game but if I don't mention "balance", the nerf camp will jump on me so... 🤷‍♂️)

 

And if people feel the old nuke numbers were too big on Trinity, just tweak it so the damage is lesser, but at least she still has that option to kill say, at least Star Chart mobs and low-level sortie.

Edited August 7, 2019 by Xepthrichros

[Mosuowai]

In any game, and in any armed forces, there is always going to be one guy who carries the nukes, one who carries the rifles, one who carries the artillery, one who heals, one who mends. There is no one guy who does it all, besides Batman.

It's all part of the plan.