Paying off the negative balance

[Cryologist]

If I pay off the negative balance, is there a guarantee that all of my frames and items will be the way it was before I got suspended? I only bought platinums, no gifts from other players.

[0_The_F00l]

Everything will stay as it was before the suspension, 

But is it due to your own payment issues or did you trade bad plat? You can raise a ticket with support if it's the later. 

[Cryologist]

Bad plat

[Slayer-.]

How do you trade bad plat? I've heard of this from other posts but never looked into it to see how it happens.

[Cryologist]

Bought a lot from black market. Do not recommend

[Slayer-.]

Just now, Cryologist said:

Bought a lot from black market. Do not recommend

Never would buy it, though I didn't know there is a blackmarket for plat, is that suspicious sites or you have to go looking for it? thanks for the quick reply.

[GnarlsDarkley]

21 minutes ago, Slayer-. said:

How do you trade bad plat?

Here's an explanation:

Person A buys 4300 Plat and trades 2000 to Person B and 2300 to C.

Person B trades 500 to D, 100 to E and 900 to F, Person C trades 800 to Person G, 600 to H, 300 to I and 400 to J.

 

Person A charges back and is 4300 in the negative, he gets banned (maybe permanent).

Person B had 500plat (2000 - 500 - 100 - 900) and lose them. If he gets into negative, he is also banned (not permanent) and needs to buy Plat from DE.

Person D lose 500plat as well, E lose 100plat and F 900.

Person C lose 200 plat (2300 - 800 - 600 - 300 - 400), G lose 600, H 300 and J 400 plat. All who drop into negative have to buy plat from DE (soft banned). 

 

7 minutes ago, Cryologist said:

Bought a lot from black market. Do not recommend

I hope you learned your lesson because you affected others as well with this if you traded some of it away

[Slayer-.]

@GnarlsDarkley 

Thanks for the detailed description, that would suck hardcore if you were one of the players who got a soft ban because of someone else.

[Zakkhar]

2 hours ago, Slayer-. said:

if you were one of the players who got a soft ban because of someone else.

Does someone else force you to buy the plat from them? 

 

[CastIronNest]

14 minutes ago, Zakkhar said:

Does someone else force you to buy the plat from them? 

Not sure what you're getting at here. Take another look:

2 hours ago, GnarlsDarkley said:

Here's an explanation:

Person A buys 4300 Plat and trades 2000 to Person B and 2300 to C.

Person B trades 500 to D, 100 to E and 900 to F, Person C trades 800 to Person G, 600 to H, 300 to I and 400 to J.

Persons B through J have no idea their plat is bad, so they go through what they think is a completely normal trade and then potentially get bans out of absolutely nowhere because of Person A.

[Zakkhar]

3 minutes ago, CastIronNest said:

Persons B through J have no idea their plat is bad, so they go through what they think is a completely normal trade and then potentially get bans out of absolutely nowhere because of Person A.

Depends how they "bought it".

Only way to trade plat is to give the item in return. Was it a regular trade of regular items actually worth that plat? Or was it some sketchy site offer? 

 

Edited August 5, 2019 by Zakkhar

[CastIronNest]

1 minute ago, Zakkhar said:

Depends how they "bought it".

Only way to trade plat is to give the item in return. Was it a regular trade of regular items actually worth that plat? Or was it some sketchy site offer?

It...doesn't matter in this example. Regular trades still screw people over down the line.

[Zakkhar]

5 minutes ago, CastIronNest said:

It...doesn't matter in this example. Regular trades still screw people over down the line.

Really? Does not matter? Sketchy site screams scam and there are two people to blame - the person who does the scam and the person who gets scammed.

I do not think the DE would ban people who did normal trades unnowingly. The currency system would not work at all beucase there would be no trust.

There must have been something sketchy.

Edited August 5, 2019 by Zakkhar

[WhiteMarker]

Just now, Zakkhar said:

Really? Does not matter? Sketchy site screams scam.

Just what are you talking about?
Nobody here says anything against the issue of buying plat from third party sites. That's obviously against the rules.

But if person A buys such plat, and then does legitimate trades with others, all the other players could get banned, if these players don't have enough plat and if DE were to remove the plat that was bought from the third party site. That's the issue CastIronNest is talking about.

Are you really not getting this?

[Zakkhar]

1 minute ago, WhiteMarker said:

But if person A buys such plat, and then does legitimate trades with others, all the other players could get banned, if these players don't have enough plat and if DE were to remove the plat that was bought from the third party site. That's the issue CastIronNest is talking about.

Are you really not getting this?

Are you?

How does it work? Is it automatic? Or does DE actually have someone that analyses the route that plat went afterwards and the means it was traded with?

With real money you can check whether they are conterfeit or not while obtaining payment. With plat you cannot. 

Counterfeiting real money is very hard and complicated. Anyone can chargeback any amounts of plat at any rate.

When you are being paid by fake currency you can tell (check the currency). WIth plat you cant.

 

If it was done automatically the plat currency system would collapse ages ago.

I do think there is an actual person that checks the trades and decides whether they were sketchy or legit. 

Legit players do not (should not) get their plat taken away as they earned it fair and square. Taking away such plat would be self destructive for DE currency system as it would take away the trust/power of the currency.

 

 

[WhiteMarker]

28 minutes ago, Zakkhar said:

Are you?

Yes, I do. You don't, though.

29 minutes ago, Zakkhar said:

Legit players do not (should not) get their plat taken away as they earned it fair and square. Taking away such plat would be self destructive for DE currency system as it would take away the trust/power of the currency.

There is no person behind this.
The system works automatically.
The third party site buys plat from warframe.com and is selling said plat for low amounts of money. Person A buys plat from the third party site. The third party site is giving the plat to person A ingame. Then some time after that the third party site does a charge back.
In the meantime, person A did legitimate trades with other players.
Because of the charge back, DE removes the plat, that was bought with the charged back money. They remove the amounts of plat that every player at the end of the line has.
If these players don't have enough plat, they go in the negatives, and get banned, even though they are innocent.

That's how it works. We know that for quite some years.
So I have no clue, what you are arguing about.

[(PSN)kite9000]

2 hours ago, Zakkhar said:

Legit players do not (should not) get their plat taken away as they earned it fair and square. Taking away such plat would be self destructive for DE currency system as it would take away the trust/power of the currency.

 

 

It would be an issue if it was anything else but a rare occurance seeing as it isn't then it has no influence on the public at large.

Look at the real world. 92 veterans have been deported by ICE in the last few months before they could get there citizenship paperwork in order, another 150 could be. Does that mean that non-Americans citizens no longer are serving or are willing to serve in the US military? No it doesn't, because there have been only 92 people so far. If it would be 92.000 people then it would have an influence.

The same applies to the 'bad' plat. There's only some cases that happens. If you got burned by it once you'll be more hesitant to deal with high priced items. After all, so what if you get deducted 50 or a 100p, if you are an avid trader that's peanuts, not nice and fustrating but something one can deal with. However selling a riven mod for several hundres or even thousands can bite anyone if the one paying for it is using 'bad' plat.

You might find it not fair of DE that someone several trades down the line has to be penalized but then again, the only other way would be that DE keeps track of each trade and undoes all trades where 'bad' plat was involved. E.g.: you bought a WF systems with some bad plat (unknown to you), built the WF and have ranked it up, put a reactor in it as well as several forma and..... you end up without the plat, or the WF and the guy you gave the plat to for the systems gets the amount of plat removed and the systems back. Does that sound better to you? You really want DE to be 'BIG Brother'? And on top of it all, the one receiving the plat still gets plat removed from his account. So for him it doesn't make a difference.

The 3rd option would be that DE would only penalize the original bad faith trader. The problem with that being that if that happened then you would have scam artists that make accounts specifically to be the 'bad faith' one and trade thousands upon thousands with secondary accounts, afterall those secondaries wouldn't be penalized in that scenario. In short, they would be flooding the market with 'bad' plat of which DE doesn't see a single dime.In fact, the bad faith ones would have so much plat that they would drive the prices up so that those that are honest would no longer be able to buy anything because of inflation.

So of those 3 scenario's I think DE did pick the most fair one as well as the one that demands the least resources to maintain.

 

[Zakkhar]

2 hours ago, WhiteMarker said:

If these players don't have enough plat, they go in the negatives, and get banned, even though they are innocent.

That's how it works. We know that for quite some years.
So I have no clue, what you are arguing about.

I am arguing exactly about this part. I do not believe that the legit innocent players get banned. 

I mean seriously beside the obvious currency system collapse threat  how does it advertise the game?

You are new to the game, you do a trade with in game tools with another player (bad intent from his part or not) and you are banned and forced to buy virtual currency in F2P game to get unbanned. No sane person would do that. They would just find game that is more fair.

 

 

Edited August 5, 2019 by Zakkhar

[WhiteMarker]

2 minutes ago, Zakkhar said:

I am arguing exactly about this part. I do not believe that the legit innocent players get banned. 

You are free to believe whatever you want to believe. But that's how it is.
Does it happen extremely often? No.
Is this, what happened to OP? Who knows, that's on support to uncover.
Fact is, it happens.

But again, if you don't want to believe it, that's totally fine. But you never said that all of this is about what you believe.

[Zakkhar]

Just now, WhiteMarker said:

Does it happen extremely often? No.

But according to information provided it should happen extremly often. Charging back plat purchase is easy. Buying plat with stolen credit card info is easy. 

Market should be flooded with fake plat and people banned left and right (or losing big chunks of plat). I see no such occurence. Why is that you think?

 

[WhiteMarker]

Just now, Zakkhar said:

But according to information provided it should happen extremly often. Charging back plat purchase is easy. Buying plat with stolen credit card info is easy. 

Market should be flooded with fake plat and people banned left and right (or losing big chunks of plat). I see no such occurence. Why is that you think?

Because not everyone posts such things in the forum, because such matters don't concern the forum, because it is against the forum rules?
Continuing this conversation will lead to nothing. It is always on DE/support to decide. Forum never sees the whole picture, so there is no point in discussing things here.

[Zakkhar]

3 minutes ago, WhiteMarker said:

Because not everyone posts such things in the forum, because such matters don't concern the forum, because it is against the forum rules?

Really? How would you know you that you lost plat is due to that?

You just lost big chunk of plat, you post it on bug forum or make a support ticket (they usually tell you to post it on forum anyway). 

I see topics about people losing various things in game:

items, materials, mastery, frame etc

I never seen anything about lost plat.

I just see 2 or so topics about banning due to negative plat.

 

Forum never sees the full picture so assuming anything with 100% certainty (like you do) is a mistake.

Edited August 5, 2019 by Zakkhar

[Zakkhar]

>It would be an issue if it was anything else but a rare occurance seeing as it isn't then it has no influence on the public at large.

How would you know it is a rare occurence?

>ook at the real world. 92 veterans have been deported by ICE in the last few months before they could get there citizenship paperwork in order, another 150 could be. Does that mean that non-Americans citizens no longer are serving or are willing to serve in the US military? No it doesn't, because there have been only 92 people so far. If it would be 92.000 people then it would have an influence.

I completely do not understand this example. I mean I do not understand how it applies here. Lets stick to currency comparisons.

>The same applies to the 'bad' plat. There's only some cases that happens. If you got burned by it once you'll be more hesitant to deal with high priced items. After all, so what if you get deducted 50 or a 100p, if you are an avid trader that's peanuts, not nice and fustrating but something one can deal with. However selling a riven mod for several hundres or even thousands can bite anyone if the one paying for it is using 'bad' plat.

Trust issue is just one factor of currency system collapse. The above example not this person fault, but the currency system administrator, because currency is easy to multiply and undistinguishable from legit currency.

>You might find it not fair of DE that someone several trades down the line has to be penalized but then again, the only other way would be that DE keeps track of each trade and undoes all trades where 'bad' plat was involved. E.g.: you bought a WF systems with some bad plat (unknown to you), built the WF and have ranked it up, put a reactor in it as well as several forma and..... you end up without the plat, or the WF and the guy you gave the plat to for the systems gets the amount of plat removed and the systems back. Does that sound better to you? You really want DE to be 'BIG Brother'? And on top of it all, the one receiving the plat still gets plat removed from his account. So for him it doesn't make a difference.

I could not care less about fairness. I am taking rational approach and I have some work experience in this field. You are giving ridicolous examples that do not apply to anything.

>The 3rd option would be that DE would only penalize the original bad faith trader. The problem with that being that if that happened then you would have scam artists that make accounts specifically to be the 'bad faith' one and trade thousands upon thousands with secondary accounts, afterall those secondaries wouldn't be penalized in that scenario. In short, they would be flooding the market with 'bad' plat of which DE doesn't see a single dime.In fact, the bad faith ones would have so much plat that they would drive the prices up so that those that are honest would no longer be able to buy anything because of inflation.

So many trades that look legit require serious manpower to execute. Manpower not worth the plat being traded. 

PS: This forum is awful in terms of usability.

[Helbent11]

8 hours ago, WhiteMarker said:

You are free to believe whatever you want to believe. But that's how it is.
Does it happen extremely often? No.
Is this, what happened to OP? Who knows, that's on support to uncover.
Fact is, it happens.

But again, if you don't want to believe it, that's totally fine. But you never said that all of this is about what you believe.

Are you sure this is what really happens? DEs own PSA on the Autoban system says the exact opposite. Given it’s an old post, has something changed and they just didn’t update it? DE makes it sound like only the first person in the chain (ie who makes the initial trade/purchase from a 3rd party site) will get banned, but the rest of the chain is in the clear assuming they were just making normal trades?

 

 

 

Edited August 5, 2019 by Helbent11
Added link to PSA

[WhiteMarker]

57 minutes ago, Helbent11 said:

Are you sure this is what really happens? DEs own PSA on the Autoban system says the exact opposite. Given it’s an old post, has something changed and they just didn’t update it? DE makes it sound like only the first person in the chain (ie who makes the initial trade/purchase from a 3rd party site) will get banned, but the rest of the chain is in the clear assuming they were just making normal trades?

 

 

 

If DE really only ever bans the first person in the chain, why would anyone ever pay for plat again?

Make a throwaway account, buy plat, trade it to your main account, do a chargeback. You will end up with plat without paying for it. And only the throwaway account gets banned.

But in reality DE removes the plat. So your main would also lose the plat. And if the main was to go in the negatives the account would get banned.

And before you come at me, you could also make 5 throwaway accounts so that your main would be further down the line.

So yes, I'm pretty sure that that's how it works. If it wasn't like this, DE would have gone bankrupt a long time ago.

[Helbent11]

2 hours ago, WhiteMarker said:

If DE really only ever bans the first person in the chain, why would anyone ever pay for plat again?

Make a throwaway account, buy plat, trade it to your main account, do a chargeback. You will end up with plat without paying for it. And only the throwaway account gets banned.

But in reality DE removes the plat. So your main would also lose the plat. And if the main was to go in the negatives the account would get banned.

And before you come at me, you could also make 5 throwaway accounts so that your main would be further down the line.

So yes, I'm pretty sure that that's how it works. If it wasn't like this, DE would have gone bankrupt a long time ago.

Not coming at you, but every official response from DE that I have seen on this says that if you are truly innocent then you are in the clear. In your example, DE should be able to pretty easily determine that the “main” account is the common thread and ban it as well. But their official response in the PSA states pretty clearly the autoban system won’t hit people farther down the line unless they also did something shady to warrant DE looking at the account.

Edited August 5, 2019 by Helbent11
Clarification