Dog Days Exploit Hot Fix Red Text, Don't talk down at your supporters DE

[Klokwerkaos]

Red text read at 2 min mark: "We will be running a test to see if there is a correlation between people using this exploit and people who complain that warframe is boring".

So yes, I get that red text is cheeky as a matter of historical precedent.

I also get that dog days was not a serious event and was designed to be a bit of cheeky fun that deviates from standard warframe edgelordiness...

The problem I have here is that it shows pretty clearly the Devs still don't take seriously or want to understand the problem of people complaining about warframe being too easy, especially when there are tons of people whining daily about how it's too hard.  This is because they don't understand how to balance the gameplay reward loop vs monetization after all these years to a place where players are happy, or perhaps, that there is outside pressure from their publishers in China, either way, it ends up being a very crappy experience for players.

Here's the thing... Dog Days WAS indeed a great bit of fun... for four missions... however, grinding out 2000+ peals with the current rewards system to obtain some silly cosmetic items that have literally no bearing on gameplay and a few trash mods that maybe five people will find useful, well... guess what, that means if TONS of people are using that exploit that it's PREFERABLE to your designed gameplay loop AND THAT IS THE CORE PROBLEM.

Like everything else, DE will band aid the situation rather than addressing the core issue, which is to either lower the cost, or incentivise the intended gameplay loop to a point where it feels rewarding, which is what many people did... by suggesting kills grant pearls, which is entirely reasonable.

You don't get to pin this on the players DE, that's bad PR, it's your game, your problem, and this has all the problems as the ooblets announcement for Epic, it completely has an important issue to address, but does it in a way that completely ignores legitimate issues and antagonizes the fanbase.  It's crappy. 

Players have legitimate reasons to be frustrated with you and your failure to provide rewarding endgame content of any kind for literally YEARS at this point. 

To be very clear, because of your insane requirements for grind for silly cosmetic items, YOU AND YOU ALONE are responsible for this.  You failed to code it correctly, and you failed to create a rewarding gameplay loop AND YOU put out a half baked event with an exploit and expected people to do what you wanted, which is grind for HOURS on end in a repetitive to death gameplay loop, rather than what they wanted, which was to earn rewards at a reasonable rate. 

To be honest, this is why I really have come to have straight up IRE for DE at this point.  You guys are, each year, eating up more and more good will that you earned in the early days, in exchange for the scummy bussiness practices of EA, Activision and other predatory companies.  I know you've taken some steps to avoid that by trying to please players... like removing random lootbox mods... BUT HOW MANY YEARS DID PEOPLE HAVE TO COMPLAIN BEFORE YOU STOPPED THAT?  Did it happen in a timely fashion, years ago when people first complained about it, or did it happen right around the time that lootboxes started getting governmental bannings that would keep your game out of certain countries?

People have legitimate problems with your game DE.  That's real.

There are real and serious problems to address.

I can and have historically supported the company financially in the past even though I literally need nothing in the game because I have everything for the core gameplay experience... I have done so to the extent where I've spent many, many more dollars than the average player, but this is legitimately the breaking point for me at this point.  From here on out, until I see significant improvement in your care for dealing with these core issues, you will not be seeing any more money from me personally.

To be clear, this isn't the "ONE BIG THING" this is the straw that broke the camels back after literally years of negligence on your part.

Further, I predict, if you guys continue down this road, while I am not the first and certainly won't be the last to make such a proclomation, I believe this problem will start getting worse. 

The gameplay landscape is changing as a whole and people are truly getting fed up with developers and publisher's nonsense.  Even your own long standing youtube partners, many of them are off doing other games entirely because you can't maintain the good will you used to while also seeking to siphon players of their time and money rather than just making a good game.

That's it for DE.  Now for the White knights that defend DE no matter what:  That's cute.  You'll grow out of that once you hit the wall of years of content drought and recognize the game is built on promises and dreams, rather than actual content releases, BY STEVE'S OWN WORDS, which is something most of us knew, but it sure was nice to have his confirmation.  The game, like all other scummy publisher games, is built on hype, not content.

If DE doesn't correct course, they will eventually end up just like EA, Activision, Bethesda and all the other publishers that have rightfully earned the ire of those that once supported them.

WAKE UP DE.  

EDIT:

Also a lot of people have criticized the OP for not having constructive criticism, so here goes:

Pearls counting towards kills was implemented and that's something I yelled about, and I'm glad to see it in.  Not sure if kill assists are in, but they should be.

Stuff to add next year:  Pool Noodle Spin to Win Melee (though pool noodles, even when soaked don't make you very wet, so probably minimal damage), Water Bombs that are AoE Target, possibly with self damage that do extra damage and have a crappy wobbly lob function (ie crap for accuracy but lots of soak damage, maybe carry three balloons).

Reduce the grind.  A highly skilled player should reasonably be able to grind a ball in 15 minutes, 30 for an unskilled one.  The current grind for throw away rewards needs to be significantly less.  Mods are probably fine where they are, since those have actual in game advantage, but dummie cosmetics that are made in the span of half an hour to an hour (or possibly a whole afternoon if they take several coffee breaks)  don't deserve an hour of player time.  Seriously, it's a floof texture on a sphere with a few recolors and some physics that date back to like 1990 as far as tech goes, lets not make this a huge issue.

Cut the Timer and make it a kill count, possibly like index with auto points on kill where you have to build up the timer rather than let it run out, this will encourage activity and reduce afk to near nothing.

Include the option to repeat the mission at the end.

Introduce Kaela as a boss at the end of kill count for tier 4.

All of that would still be cheeky, fun, and actually make the silly rewards feel far more rewarding.  An Hour for a silly ball is not OK.  Additionally, the captura should be expensive, yes, but not so absurd.

 

Edited August 8, 2019 by Klokwerkaos

[Fishyflakes]

Preach it brother 🙌

[EquinoxPrime]

3 minutes ago, Klokwerkaos said:

guess what, that means if TONS of people are using that exploit that it's PREFERABLE to your designed gameplay loop AND THAT IS THE CORE PROBLEM.

I tend to agree with you there, OP.

[DeMonkey]

16 minutes ago, Klokwerkaos said:

Players have legitimate reasons to be frustrated with you and your failure to provide rewarding endgame content of any kind for literally YEARS at this point. 

Endgame content cannot exist until our power is reigned in such that there is actually a level that can be defined as "endgame", and frankly the gameplay actually needs to resemble that of a "game" instead of invisible, unkillable frames dealing 5 billion damage to enemies with 10 thousand health. And unfortunately any attempts to suggest such methods for reigning in our power so that an "endgame" can be more than a pipe dream is met with vitriol and ridicule. We can't have both scaling frames (to this degree) and endgame content at the same time.

Also, General Discussion?

Edited August 6, 2019 by DeMonkey

[Brey223]

Just now, DeMonkey said:

Endgame content cannot exist until our power is reigned in such that there is actually a level that can be defined as "endgame". And unfortunately any attempts to suggest such methods for reigning in our power so that an "endgame" can be more than a pipe dream is met with vitriol and ridicule. We can't have both scaling frames (to this degree) and endgame content at the same time.

Also, General Discussion?

The endless missions are why people are going to be upset with reining in power. If we didn’t have endless missions people would be upset if there was a power ceiling. 

[sungod1]

That is it I am uninstalling. 

[DeMonkey]

Just now, Brey223 said:

The endless missions are why people are going to be upset with reining in power. If we didn’t have endless missions people would be upset if there was a power ceiling. 

People need to accept that largely speaking endless missions beyond rotation C are not content, they're a fun way of pushing yourself beyond content. I too thoroughly enjoy pushing myself, especially with the reworked Wukong who actually has to push instead of just being immortal all the time, which is really rather the point. Those who enjoy pushing themselves are still going to be able to enjoy pushing themselves. You won't be hitting as high a number, but nor will everyone else, whatever vain "look at me and how far I got" pride we get out of it would still be applicable.

[Klokwerkaos]

1 minute ago, DeMonkey said:

Endgame content cannot exist until our power is reigned in such that there is actually a level that can be defined as "endgame". And unfortunately any attempts to suggest such methods for reigning in our power so that an "endgame" can be more than a pipe dream is met with vitriol and ridicule. We can't have both scaling frames (to this degree) and endgame content at the same time.

Also, General Discussion?

Endgame can exist, there are literally countless posts by me, probably you too, and many, many, many others that have made many many many suggestions on how to make this possible.  To be fair, some or even many of those ideas are poop.  Some ideas however, are incredibly exciting and don't rely on player power level to be the deciding factor of an outcome.  While DE can't reasonably fix everything over night, failing for years on end to address the issue at all is not a defensible position.  Many other games can and have gotten this right, also with massive power disparities in the player base, in some cases, rivalling warframe in terms of power disparity.

I will agree with you that the problem is complex and not easily solved, but it being a hard problem, doesn't mean it should be an ignored problem, nor does it mean it's an impossible problem.

[BiancaRoughfin]

18 minutes ago, Klokwerkaos said:

the Devs still don't take seriously or want to understand the problem of people complaining about warframe being too easy

They do but every time they make something harder or more challenging in the game, some people come to the forums harassing them for making something too hard.

Take Arbitrations and Nightwave for example.

[Andrax17]

Honestly, this redtext felt so hostile towards the players who have problem with how unrewarding Dog Days is and how much you have to grind it for the rewards.

Sure the ESC thing was a bug and it should have been fixed, i'm not going to deny that, but why fix that and also talk down on everyone (like i feel stupid as all hell even typing here after that redtext)
And they didn't do anything to make the gamemode more rewarding, even after that one bug was fixed, the best way to do the mission is still just either finding a spot that the enemies can't reach you from, or just run around and win at 0-0 after 5min, because nothing you do in the mission increases your rewards.

[Brey223]

I’m going to play both sides of the fence here. 

 

DE is doing what they can with what they have. Warframe is there one and only game they have so they’re trying to not make a big flop that will kill the game. Dog days is fun and is something new that they’re trying as a “silly” event. The mods you get from the event are the same mods you get from killing Kayla de thane herself so there isn’t an actual need to get those mods. 

 

DE needs to QA they’re own content to make sure that the blatant issues are resolved before they hit the main market. They need to not promise something that they aren’t going to give (raids I’m looking at you) and they shouldn’t talk down to their customers. 

 

 

[(XBOX)Zweimander]

Well I dont find the gamd boring I just take breaks from it every now and then. That said Im still afking because it is not an exploit is bad mission design. Now the whole pausing in solo IS an exploit but just hiding within the confines of the map is fair game!

[Hello]

Is the red text dude drinking again? He went from being funny to meh like what usually happens after a few glasses of whiskey...

 

What bothers me, there's posts from 2-3 years ago about being locked into timed missions being boring. The feedback happens and what does DE do? They release another thing that's locked to time and don't look into why people find it boring.

The concept of Dog Days is great, the water gun is pathetic and having to stay for 5 minutes is dull. Honestly though, if members of DE spent as much time reading feedback as they did retweeting positive remarks of the event or fan art, then they would see what a lot of people think of the event or this type of mechanic.

Edit: I did the event Friday when it released but I just can't do it anymore. Felt burnt out the second I loaded into the mission again. I don't even want to see it anymore and the rewards while I want them, it's not worth it. I don't want it to be easy, I just want something enjoyable. If there was incentive to kill and the water gun could actually do damage, then I would gladly try to kill 20+ of them in the 5 minute cycle for more pearls.

Edited August 6, 2019 by --Brandt--

[(PSN)Elvenbane]

Just now, DeMonkey said:

You won't be hitting as high a number, but nor will everyone else, whatever vain "look at me and how far I got" pride we get out of it would still be applicable.

Yup, and you probably won't have to go an hour before things get interesting. Regardless, your bladder will be thankful. 🙂

[Bloop]

After reading the entire post, while I may not agree with every single point, I do agree on something for sure, as many will here.

1 minute ago, Andrax17 said:

Honestly, this redtext felt so hostile towards the players who have problem with how unrewarding Dog Days is and how much you have to grind it for the rewards.

It was hostile enough that it felt insulting. It doesn't take exploiting something to question whether there's content or not. If there was content, there'd be no need for this event, I'm pretty sure of this.

[Brey223]

1 minute ago, BiancaRoughfin said:

They do but every time they make something harder or more challenging in the game, some people come to the forums harassing them for making something too hard.

Take Arbitrations and Nightwave for example.

Well the arbitration’s did need a little love. No one likes getting one shot and just being done in. However what they did was really clever with the same mechanics as index with the drone coins. Keeps it challenging cause if someone goes down you gotta risk yourself to get that person revived. 

 

Nightwave also is a really nice change to the alert systems. They’re making improvements to the system so that people don’t burn themselves out on completing the challenges. 

[VanFanel1980mx]

13 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Endgame content cannot exist until our power is reigned in such that there is actually a level that can be defined as "endgame", and frankly the gameplay actually needs to resemble that of a "game" instead of invisible, unkillable frames dealing 5 billion damage to enemies with 10 thousand health. And unfortunately any attempts to suggest such methods for reigning in our power so that an "endgame" can be more than a pipe dream is met with vitriol and ridicule. We can't have both scaling frames (to this degree) and endgame content at the same time.

Also, General Discussion?

The only problem with the usual "we want challenge" is how the new content is designed to allow only a few frames and weapons to shine on it, and I don't mean to break it, I mean something like walking 3 steps without getting instantly killed, nullified and CC'd.

Back on topic, is there a leaderboard? because I would suspect this is yet another event when Warbros or any other "Not-the-YesMenClan" is leading so there will be a reset and rule change.

Edited August 6, 2019 by VanFanel1980mx

[Klokwerkaos]

1 minute ago, Brey223 said:

 

DE is doing what they can with what they have. 

 

 

 

I'm not necessarily convinced on this any longer.  The good will has run out for me.  I think they are doing what they can to make sure they have jobs and the game is lucrative for business daddy, and I think they genuinely want players to enjoy the game (because who wouldn't) but that they are sincerely failing to understand any criticisms that are same criticisms for literally years. 

I am not convinced at all they give half a solid crap about their vets at all, to the point where I wonder if there is an active hostility at this point.  Vets have been complaining for as long as I've been in the game about the very same issues.  

Like any newbie I'd argue with them and defend DE because I was starry eyed and amazed at this F2P game like everyone else new.  At a certain point, once you gain experience, you stop arguing with them and see the writing on the wall.  At this point I'm just past the point where I want them to have a single penny of mine ever again until they fix and start listening, not to me specifically because I'm not that narcisistic, but to the literal chorus of voices that have been singing this same song since forever.

[Sean]

The messaging was so out of touch that I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't even touch the game mode at all.

The exploits in the mode allow for the amount of grind needed for something as simple as a floof to be more tolerable as the mode itself is just dull.

While initially it can be a nice little game, once you start actually farming / grinding for the items within Nakak's Store, it's simply tedious, and the game becomes a chore.

 

DE treated the wrong part of the game mode as the people exploiting is only a symptom of a greater issue with it.

[DeMonkey]

5 minutes ago, Klokwerkaos said:

Endgame can exist, there are literally countless posts by me, probably you too

All of my suggestions revolve around reducing our power so that level 100-150 is actually challenging (because that's roughly the enemy level where the "game" ends), rather than trying to create a challenge for the frames that can go beyond that.

5 minutes ago, Klokwerkaos said:

Many other games can and have gotten this right, also with massive power disparities in the player base, in some cases, rivalling warframe in terms of power disparity.

Can you provide some examples and how their solutions would be applicable to Warframe?

Not in a, "I don't think you can, so this is a rebuttal" but rather that I'm genuinely curious because I can't think of any off the top of my head.

4 minutes ago, (PS4)Elvenbane said:

Yup, and you probably won't have to go an hour before things get interesting. Regardless, your bladder will be thankful. 🙂

That's why I have several bottles under my desk.

1 minute ago, VanFanel1980mx said:

The only problem with the usual "we want challenge" is how the new content is designed to allow only a few frames and weapons to shine on it, and I don't mean to break it, I mean something like walking 3 steps without getting instantly killed, nullified and CC'd.

In this regard I believe that the problem comes from how that's the only way of providing any challenge for us. If enemies weren't capable of ignoring our powers we'd either kill them before they get to us, or CC them so that they don't get to us. If enemies don't deal unreal amounts of damage that unfortunately results in insta-death for squishier frames, then frames like Inaros and Chroma will never even break a sweat.

[Brey223]

1 minute ago, Klokwerkaos said:

I'm not necessarily convinced on this any longer.  The good will has run out for me.  I think they are doing what they can to make sure they have jobs and the game is lucrative for business daddy, and I think they genuinely want players to enjoy the game (because who wouldn't) but that they are sincerely failing to understand any criticisms that are same criticisms for literally years. 

I am not convinced at all they give half a solid crap about their vets at all, to the point where I wonder if there is an active hostility at this point.  Vets have been complaining for as long as I've been in the game about the very same issues.  

Like any newbie I'd argue with them and defend DE because I was starry eyed and amazed at this F2P game like everyone else new.  At a certain point, once you gain experience, you stop arguing with them and see the writing on the wall.  At this point I'm just past the point where I want them to have a single penny of mine ever again until they fix and start listening, not to me specifically because I'm not that narcisistic, but to the literal chorus of voices that have been singing this same song since forever.

I love how you take the one line and not the whole of what I was saying there. So I just skimmed this response. 

[BiancaRoughfin]

1 minute ago, Brey223 said:

Well the arbitration’s did need a little love. No one likes getting one shot and just being done in. However what they did was really clever with the same mechanics as index with the drone coins. Keeps it challenging cause if someone goes down you gotta risk yourself to get that person revived. 

 

Nightwave also is a really nice change to the alert systems. They’re making improvements to the system so that people don’t burn themselves out on completing the challenges. 

I had bought everything Arbitation had to offer before the rework and only managed to die for the first time after the rework. I have nothing against the change with the ressing, i my self usually am the first chasing the tokens to resurrect a teammate but people complained the game was too easy, DE made Arbitration then people complained it was too hard.

As for Nightwave i preferred it before the simplification, i liked having more weekly activities to do.

[Klokwerkaos]

4 minutes ago, Brey223 said:

Well the arbitration’s did need a little love. No one likes getting one shot and just being done in. However what they did was really clever with the same mechanics as index with the drone coins. Keeps it challenging cause if someone goes down you gotta risk yourself to get that person revived. 

 

Nightwave also is a really nice change to the alert systems. They’re making improvements to the system so that people don’t burn themselves out on completing the challenges. 

I will agree nightwave is a net positive in that it makes you cycle through old content you'd never play otherwise because it's unrewarding by making it rewarding.

That said, I heavily disagree with the changes to arbs, and the fact that they were billed as endgame content when really, I can't count how many people under MR 10 I've seen hit rotation C without a problem because they invested properly in their build, which is usually a cheap as rhino build that you get so early in the game that calling this endgame is absolutely insane when players can clear it before doing even half of the game's current progression.

[Brey223]

1 minute ago, BiancaRoughfin said:

I had bought everything Arbitation had to offer before the rework and only managed to die for the first time after the rework. I have nothing against the change with the ressing, i my self usually am the first chasing the tokens to resurrect a teammate but people complained the game was too easy, DE made Arbitration then people complained it was too hard.

As for Nightwave i preferred it before the simplification, i liked having more weekly activities to do.

Yeah I didn’t mind the nightwave having a lot of challenges to do. I just didn’t like the “guild an item, forma something three times and be in a survival for an hour.” Those were a little rough. 

[(PSN)Cephalon_Snow]

Is that you Lifeofrio?  😉