Dog Days Exploit Hot Fix Red Text, Don't talk down at your supporters DE

[sungod1]

Quote

Additionally, no endgame content will be played by "MOST" of the player base, that's kind of how endgame works, because most players will not be at that level.

When you say most games are you talking about 'free to play games' or most games? IMHO, the funding model does not allow for wasting time and effort for 1% of the player base.

 

[so_many_watermelons]

28 minutes ago, Oreades said:

So most people would probably end up getting fewer points than they are now, unless the unspoken proposition is that the game give us the base 50 pts for showing up and the additional pts for the kills(+kill assists) that we are scoring. 

Not really the point of the thread, but just wanted to chime in that there should be absolutely no reason, if they decided to add kills contributing to pearl gain, why it would be strictly beneficial to the individuals who score the kills, instead of the entire team's kill score being added as pearls for everyone on top of the mission's completion reward ( 50 on the fourth missions ). You could still argue about "leechers" and AFKers, but it's not like that's not how the event currently is.

Hell, it'd be smart to lower the timer by one minute too, making everyone happy with a slight increase in completion speed, but also taking a whole minute away from earning bonus pearls with kills. It leads to a overall increase in pearl gain while making the match a bit less tedious and also rewards players for participating even alone with leechers in haul.

[Klokwerkaos]

2 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Unfortunately the fact that solo players in certain frames are able to play endless missions for hours on end kinda detracts from that. In a perfect world in which an endgame exists, that shouldn't be possible.

As for the staff, that's literally what I'm proposing. If ever the game got rebalanced fully I would gladly accept a nerf to Wukong's staff, because it absolutely is far too powerful to exist in such a state in the game that I would want Warframe to be.

I'm sure there's probably some logical basis for buffs being better than nerfs, but honestly I see both as exactly the same and I mean that. I'm as keen on buffing weak things as I am on nerfing strong things, and as triggered by nerfs to weak things as I am to buffs to strong things.

 

The main problem for endless being done forever is mostly centered around in game bugs they have.  If they fixed those it wouldn't be any where near as drastic of a problem.  Consider the noise arrow exploit for interception...

That said, it could and should be addressed.  I also think if they ramped things up faster, and also had a sense of endgame, people wouldn't give many poops about their not being able to do endless for hours, because it's fiscally unrewarding in most cases and makes more sense to restart at C or a couple of C rotations in most cases.  Plus they'd have something else to do.  I frankly think the main reason endless grinds exist is 2 reasons:  1 for bragging rights, which you don't get if you're just using an exploit except to say you discovered an exploit, which is neat until it's patched.  The other is because players are trying, desperately, to find any sense of challenge which would be fixed by any sense of proper endgame.

As far as the psychology of buffs vs. nerfs, I'll dig up a quick link for you... which is here and a strongly recommend it.
 

 

[Oreades]

2 minutes ago, so_many_watermelons said:

Not really the point of the thread, but just wanted to chime in that there should be absolutely no reason, if they decided to add kills contributing to pearl gain, why it would be strictly beneficial to the individuals who score the kills, instead of the entire team's kill score being added as pearls for everyone on top of the mission's completion reward ( 50 on the fourth missions ). You could still argue about "leechers" and AFKers, but it's not like that's not how the event currently is.

Hell, it'd be smart to lower the timer by one minute too, making everyone happy with a slight increase in completion speed, but also taking a whole minute away from earning bonus pearls with kills. It leads to a overall increase in pearl gain while making the match a bit less tedious and also rewards players for participating even alone with leechers in haul.

Honestly I've been a fan of the idea of using a hard kill cap. 

From the matches I've played just generap PUGs thus far, most people have been able to get to 50 kills around the 2:30 mark so ~half the time we currently take to complete the whole mission. Being able to reduce the timer by half would be a pretty incentiveizing incentive IMHO. tho it would do little to stem PUG leechers from joining queues if it was the only change made. 

[(PSN)griddler420]

Well said OP

[DeMonkey]

22 minutes ago, Klokwerkaos said:

The main problem for endless being done forever is mostly centered around in game bugs they have.  If they fixed those it wouldn't be any where near as drastic of a problem.  Consider the noise arrow exploit for interception...

Sure, but primarily I'm talking about Octavia right now. Her mallet absorbing enemies scaling damage and chucking it right back at them is not a bug, it's by design. I'm also not really talking about "forever", as imo any frame that can go several hours into a survival fighting enemies several hundred levels beyond anything resembling content is a problem.

With regards to: "I frankly think the main reason endless grinds exist is 2 reasons:  1 for bragging rights, which you don't get if you're just using an exploit except to say you discovered an exploit, which is neat until it's patched.  The other is because players are trying, desperately, to find any sense of challenge which would be fixed by any sense of proper endgame." 

There are elements of both for certain players, definitely. However if we were reigned in and higher level enemies were made uncheesable and actually challenging, then you could still play endless missions and look for that. You'd even have more right to brag as the enemies would objectively be harder to fight than they previously were.

As for the psychology, I can't say I'm too bothered by it. I don't think players feelings should get in the way of proper game development. Due to the fact that I have to get up for work in less than 5 hours I'll give the video a watch at some point tomorrow.

For now though, despite the fact that I dislike the overall tone of your OP, I appreciate that you've been amicable with me throughout the thread despite our differences.

Edited August 6, 2019 by DeMonkey

[JackHargreav]

Wow what a sh#t show...

[Firetrucksrule]

1 hour ago, BiancaRoughfin said:

They do but every time they make something harder or more challenging in the game, some people come to the forums harassing them for making something too hard.

Take Arbitrations and Nightwave for example.

Except arbitrations ESO and nightwave are all objectively easy. ESO and arbitrations were promised as end game content but they both released easier than other hard content in the game. The problem is anytime DE releases something even moderately difficult players who can't do it for whatever reason throw a hissy fit instead of grinding better stuff or improving their own game.

DE has backed themselves into a corner listening every time anyone complains about even the slightest of difficulty. Any nerf that they can get away with isn't going to be sufficient. They need to release actual high level game play options if they want to get out of that rut, which I kinda doubt they do tbh. Most of their money seems to come from new players. 

[Klokwerkaos]

7 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Sure, but primarily I'm talking about Octavia right now. Her mallet absorbing enemies scaling damage and chucking it right back at them is not a bug, it's by design. I'm also not really talking about "forever", as imo any frame that can go several hours into a survival fighting enemies several hundred levels beyond anything resembling content is a problem.

With regards to: "I frankly think the main reason endless grinds exist is 2 reasons:  1 for bragging rights, which you don't get if you're just using an exploit except to say you discovered an exploit, which is neat until it's patched.  The other is because players are trying, desperately, to find any sense of challenge which would be fixed by any sense of proper endgame." 

There are elements of both for certain players, definitely. However if we were reigned in and higher level enemies were made uncheesable and actually challenging, then you could still play endless missions and look for that. You'd even have more right to brag as the enemies would objectively be harder to fight than they previously were.

As for the psychology, I can't say I'm too bothered by it. I don't think players feelings should get in the way of proper game development. Due to the fact that I have to get up for work in less than 5 hours I'll give the video a watch at some point tomorrow.

For now though, despite the fact that dislike the overall tone of your OP, I appreciate that you've been amicable with me throughout the thread despite our differences.

I absolutely agree octavia is problematic... infinite invisible with enemies having no real way to manage that (because she can easily just, walk away from nullies and scrambus) and infinite damage scaling... it's frankly, fine at low levels with non optimized builds, but stupid OP in Endless.  That said, getting anyone at DE to nerf this in any way seems like an impossible task since she's clearly a favored child of theirs.  I think the proper solution wouldn't be to get rid of her kit as is though, since it's fine if a frame can do this... so long as the enemies are then buffed in such a way that they can deal with this tactic... maybe a new enemy type or obstacle of some kind.  As it stands, right now she's literally impossible to manage for the stupid enemy AI and that's a problem that needs addressing, but a nerf isn't necessarily the right way to go.

I think you'll find the video addresses a very important thing, it's not just psychology, but good game design.  It's not useful to chase the means of the goal, because that can get in the way of things.
 

Edited August 6, 2019 by Klokwerkaos

[(XBOX)The Neko Otaku]

Wow i didn't think someone was going to get that salty over redtext burn. Welp time to watch the salt in here that has started

[Spookmineer]

1 hour ago, Klokwerkaos said:

Here's the thing... Dog Days WAS indeed a great bit of fun... for four missions... however, grinding out 2000+ peals with the current rewards system to obtain some silly cosmetic items that have literally no bearing on gameplay and a few trash mods that maybe five people will find useful, well... guess what, that means if TONS of people are using that exploit that it's PREFERABLE to your designed gameplay loop AND THAT IS THE CORE PROBLEM.

I've had a lot of fun last weekend playing this event. I felt sorry for the players being stagnant at a point, basically watching a timer counting down for 5 minutes straight. The event isn't hard at all, and 5 minutes just whiz by if you immerse yourself in active gameplay.

Or you can choose to use some exploit, and I guess after an hour you could literally fall asleep out of boredom. That's the player's choice, nothing to do with anything else.

When a new prime arrives, I run out of void traces pretty fast, so I run some lith exterminate/capture/whatever fissures back to back for an hour. Loads of squads on the node, no one complains. Because people don't watch a timer counting down.

Redtext was right on the money and I didn't feel offended in any way.

[Yahzee]

Oh dear goodness. So much whining. I almost started laughing when OP compared DE to the likes of EA and Activision. 

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

Hotfix 25.5.3 Redtext = 

 

GG DE

Edited August 7, 2019 by (XB1)RDeschain82

[Mr.SpookSpook]

Well, thats a bible worth of text I'm not gonna read either, but hey, others upvoted, take mine as well.

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

16 minutes ago, Mr.SpookSpook said:

Well, thats a bible worth of text I'm not gonna read either, but hey, others upvoted, take mine as well.

DE should really monitor what goes in thier red text. 

GG DE

Edited August 7, 2019 by (XB1)RDeschain82

[Aldain]

...Wow, DE seems saltier than the people they were trying to burn with that redtext.

A chilling reminder that sometimes it is better to keep a mouth shut, lest a foot be put in it.

[(XBOX)The Neko Otaku]

2 minutes ago, Aldain said:

...Wow, DE seems saltier than the people they were trying to burn with that redtext.

A chilling reminder that sometimes it is better to keep a mouth shut, lest a foot be put in it.

I'm getting more salt from the complaints about red text,  i mean reddit is fun salt mine to observe.

[Aldain]

Just now, (XB1)The Neko Otaku said:

I'm getting more salt from the complaints about red text,  i mean reddit is fun salt mine to observe.

I think it is 50/50 honestly, there really wasn't a need for the (passive) aggression in the redtext and the joke falls flat because it isn't subtle or clever, it is like throwing an anvil at somebody and telling them it is a joke.

That said I had already checked out of the event so I'm just sitting back and watching the fireworks.

[BrenBlaze]

I remember the "exploit" from the exploiter orb. If you time all 4 vents you can skip 5 minutes of cutscenes and radio. An event that your skill has no bearing on will always be boring once your desire for the payment subsides. When there is no way to speed up the mission or increase gains from the mission, and the rewards are over priced meh in most cases, people will get bored and just go for the payment. 

The fix is easy.  Set a threshhold at the average points per match and give bonus pearls past that. Or, end the mission at a checkpoint, people will glitch and afk less...

[AKTKWNG]

3 minutes ago, (XB1)The Neko Otaku said:

I'm getting more salt from the complaints about red text,  i mean reddit is fun salt mine to observe.

This thread looks like an entire timeline of people getting angry at a Wendy's tweet.

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

11 minutes ago, Aldain said:

I think it is 50/50 honestly, there really wasn't a need for the (passive) aggression in the redtext and the joke falls flat because it isn't subtle or clever, it is like throwing an anvil at somebody and telling them it is a joke.

That said I had already checked out of the event so I'm just sitting back and watching the fireworks.

Right. Lol  It's like they have no idea what it's like to play 7 hours of monopoly with Grandma. 

Edited August 7, 2019 by (XB1)RDeschain82

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

Dog Days "event" concept leaked

Now let's mak'em do it for 7 hours. Yeah let's givem 10 days. 

DE "Content" 

Also DE "Respecting players time"

Edited August 7, 2019 by (XB1)RDeschain82

[(PSN)FastestKnight]

3 hours ago, Klokwerkaos said:

At this point I'm just past the point where I want them to have a single penny of mine ever again until they fix and start listening, not to me specifically because I'm not that narcisistic, but to the literal chorus of voices that have been singing this same song since forever.

 

Agreed. 

 

I have this feeling, lately, that they don't care as much as they did before. An example of this could be the Relic Reward outcry. They changed a few things after all the complaints, but it hasn't been fixed yet. Same thing with some of Nightwave's missions. Even in last devstreams they spend too much, like, 90% of the time joking instead of focusing on the content itself (except for Reb).

 

Maybe I'm reading too much into it but I agree that some of the good will is disappearing. 

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

As we would say in my county "geez an ages man! whey sah is like real big stone getting pelt in real people garden! Erybodee get tootoolbay wit dat one, oui! And now dey jus dey playin ded to ketch corbeau alive".

🤔 I suppose that makes a lot more sense when you grew up drinking rum on a fairly regular basis. 😁

Now for seriousness:

19 minutes ago, BrenBlaze said:

The fix is easy.  Set a threshhold at the average points per match and give bonus pearls past that. Or, end the mission at a checkpoint, people will glitch and afk less...

There's a better way, I figure. Make it base pearls + (%damage dealt/100)*total team kill count. 

That cuts out problems of "kill stealing" but still rewards the people who are actively participating.

[George_PPS]

This game is not designed just for veterans or players who like to complain. Just take a break if you need to. Almost 4000 hours in, I am still enjoying select end game contents daily. Have you even achieved everything? Done 1000 sets of Eidolong hunting? Min-maxed everything? Just relax and chill. It’s just a fun game.