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Dog Days Exploit Hot Fix Red Text, Don't talk down at your supporters DE

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Posted (edited)
vor 13 Minuten schrieb (PS4)ATreidezz:

Special? OP clearly said that its "some silly cosmetic items that have literally no bearing on gameplay" which is btw, a long way of saying "its irrelevant". 

So why would people fear out of missing "something irrelevant"? 

Then again, i dont understand what you mean by engaging design, is cutting the grind engaging? Is cutting the cost engaging? If people have it all then run back to forum to make another "content drought" thread, is that count as engaging? 

I was not referring to OP, but to the situation in general in my own words.

And it's a simple fact: Content exists, people want to unlock it. If's it's time limited, they rush it. If there is a grindwall, they grind, no matter how "useless" the rewards are. But cosmetics matter to alot of people, a big part of monetization in the industry as a whole is build on that.

 

Cutting the grind might not be "engaging", but it's less "not engaging", and in some way "more engaging" when looked at it like that. Also, how about more weapons for the mode? Waterbomb secondaries, pool noodle melee? Making this not just a shooting a stupid AI while walking backwards, how about two forts and playing some form of capture the flag? How about PvP? How about unlocking stuff by challenges, instead of grind for currency?

 

Edit: Oh, and having Kela as a boss obviously. Huuuuuuge missed opportunity.

Edited by Imbarator
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3 minutes ago, (PS4)tissot555 said:

You're thinking within the restraints of my example. You have to realise your argument is that because warframes can do this, that means we cant have endgame. When the thought should be, because warframes can do this, we need this in our endgame. 

None of this makes any sense.

Of course I thought within the restraints of your example, what else am I supposed to think? You provided an example, I responded to that example.

Of course my argument is that because we're capable of this we can't have endgame. Where does "should" even come into this? We should have more content designed to challenge us but doesn't actually because the root problem is never addressed? What?

5 minutes ago, (PS4)tissot555 said:

The challenge is to answer all of the questions you just asked me.

It should be an easy challenge for you, given you claimed that my argument in this regard is rubbish.

6 minutes ago, (PS4)tissot555 said:

Also can you really not see past the word jumping lol? If I called it a dashing puzzle would you be on board.

No.

9 minutes ago, (PS4)tissot555 said:

What if there was a relic that one operator had to hold and it connected the operator to the warframe in a way that let the operator have the warframes health, armor and weapons. And just for that breif but awesome section of the raid, operators fought through the hordes 

Cool, a single player gets the potential to be a super powerful Operator that... follows behind the frames as they kill everything? Creating new content outside the core gameplay experience doesn't change the fact that the core gameplay experience, the very essence of Warframe, is completely borked and doesn't leave much room for an endgame. What happens when the novelty of this wears off?

11 minutes ago, (PS4)tissot555 said:

Maybe I'm just a visionary.

That's certainly one word for it.

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Posted (edited)

And it's all of a sudden like you forgot everything good that DE has done. If anything, for me the straw that broke the camel's back was when parkour 2.0 came in. For me, that's when Warframe went into its power-creep downward spiral. That is more insulting to players than some petty red text.

But I also acknowledge everything good DE has done since then. If I and others (and you) haven't supported the game for as long as we did, we wouldn't have the roster of frames we have now. Railjack would be a pipe dream and Warframe would still be a random tile shooter. DE will trip and stumble but for me, they are minor annoyances compared to what they botched up years ago. And unlike your complaint which may or may not be fixed, what my complaint is hasn't been fixed or addressed since the inception of parkour 2.0. So I do think I have more right to be peeved off at DE than you are.

This Dog Days thing I could care less about. It's Railjack that needs to swim. However, I also agree with some of the player complaints and feedback on Dog Days and DE has actually listened to some of it which I think some small, vocal group of people on the forum conveniently forgot. The pearl cost is barely anything, and it's even more easy to obtain now that you can get pearls per kill. For me in solo, that nearly halves the time it takes for me to obtain items from the Beach shop.

In saying all of this, I may be aggressive to your post but it's still good to voice your thoughts and opinion and I do hope DE at least listens to your, and others grievances. But let's not be hyperbolic about it.

Edited by Goodwill
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I think maybe there's more than one RedText, specifically more than one person at DE with access to RedText, and one is probably a little less jovial than the other from time to time. I think it was either an attempt to be funny that just didn't hit home, or one of the staff got out the wrong side of bed this morning. either way, we shouldn't take it personally.

DE has a FAR better track record of treating us well than many other Devs, even with the "26 million losers" blunder. they interact with the community more than any other developer I've seen, something which they wouldn't do if they actively disliked us.

it's not worth making salt for an event that will be gone at the end of this week anyway.

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Posted (edited)
38 minutes ago, Imbarator said:

How about more weapons for the mode? Waterbomb secondaries, pool noodle melee? Making this not just a shooting a stupid AI while walking backwards, how about two forts and playing some form of capture the flag? How about PvP? How about unlocking stuff by challenges, instead of grind for currency?

This suggestions are Good, it can make the event engaging if not fun, really, but it doesn't matter

 

because :

38 minutes ago, Imbarator said:

And it's a simple fact: Content exists, people want to unlock it. If's it's time limited, they rush it.

Sooner or later, they dont care about how engaging the gameplay would be and only focus to speed it up, even if it means with exploit. 

Edited by (PS4)ATreidezz
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1 minute ago, (PS4)robotwars7 said:

I think maybe there's more than one RedText, specifically more than one person at DE with access to RedText, and one is probably a little less jovial than the other from time to time. I think it was either an attempt to be funny that just didn't hit home, or one of the staff got out the wrong side of bed this morning. either way, we shouldn't take it personally.

Pretty much, still doesn't change the fact that the RedText was more snippy than usual, number one business rule is never be snippy with your customers (even if they deserve it from time to time).

It is a minor irritant at worst, but still throwing wood onto a fire nonetheless.

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1 hour ago, DeMonkey said:

It's genius, why has it not been done yet?

It could, but to what end? Since when do we actually need to be able to see enemies to kill or CC them? And then you're faced with the same problem mentioned earlier, how much damage are these enemies going to deal? Damage that's appropriate for frames that can take a few hits and thus insta-kills squishier frames, or damage that's appropriate for squishier frames to allow for "fairness" but means that tanks are immortal? 

Are they able to shoot at you from outside of the lit area and thus you have the potential for insta-killing enemies that you can't see, or do they have to get close enough to be visible before damaging you, at which point see point a about them already being dead or CC'd.

What's to stop people from just being permanently invisible all the time and just following the light and ignoring enemies altogether?

You could suggest that the light nullifies abilities, but then you shall be met with "why bother playing Warframe if you want the mission to be a generic shooter"?

I'm sorry, but dismissing my claim that we cannot have an endgame by proposing "take a destiny raid and port it to Warframe" as the grand solution is... I honestly can't really think of any words right now. There are just so many flaws with the idea.

No? Sorry but I see no coolness in that.

How exactly does one dash through a jumping puzzle anyway? Surely that defeats the entire point of a jumping puzzle if you dash through it?

I haven't played destiny but i think it's the closest game to Warframe. Does exist something similar in Destiny to Limbo, Saryn, mesa or Inaros?

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vor 1 Minute schrieb bibmobello:

I haven't played destiny but i think it's the closest game to Warframe. Does exist something similar in Destiny to Limbo, Saryn, mesa or Inaros?

The thing in destiny is, you have cooldowns. So no spamming of your annihilation-button. You have alot more gunwork to do, and most enemies are not oneshot. In that regard, Warframe is a horder shooter much more than destiny.

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The biggest problem with the idea of having an endgame in warframe, is in large part simply the nature of what an endgame actually is.  In a traditional sense, endgame is the stage of the game when you gain access to things after attaining the max level, generally after you've "beaten" the game (namely the main story/quest line), which are generally just things for improving the player's equipment/skills/stats to the best that they can be in the game.

One of the problems with a traditional endgame in warframe, is that there really isn't a definitive max level or "end of the game" to really have any sort of clear definition to where endgame would actually begin.  One could argue the highest mastery rank for the max level, but everything is accessible well before you attain the highest current mastery rank, which, we still have no idea what will happen after MR30 whenever we get that far.  MR has no impact on what you can accomplish beyond MR16 (and arguably even as low as MR8 if only counting access to quests and the like), because any perks to MR ranks beyond rank 16 is all just for convenience.  Progression in that sense is more so tied to the cinematic quests in which we do not have a complete quest-line yet - we are still all waiting for the end of the story, and we have no idea where it will take us if and when we do get there.

The other, and in imo, much bigger problem with having an end-game... or at least endgame-esque activities in warframe, is that the power of the players has spiraled out of control.  Players have the potential to become insanely powerful, and with the diversity of all the frames and weapons, I think that DE presently does not have a viable solution to be able to properly balance the game without turning everything on its head, and very likely upset ALOT of people.  I truly believe that DE intended things like Sorties, Eidolon/Orb hunts, Arbitrations, and ESO to be endgame-like activities, but because players can get so insanely powerful these things typically end up getting steam rolled, and therefore not challenging enough for them to consider it as endgame.  Like others have been saying, it is difficult to really challenge the players without also maintaining that power fantasy that players enjoy without completely shutting them down via things like CC, nullifiers, etc - which generally are things that players find to be the opposite fun (especially if it's excessive). 

I believe that maybe warframe just isn't meant to have an endgame in the traditional sense for these reasons because I highly doubt that these issues will be fixed in such a manner to allow for a traditional endgame any time soon, if ever.   As stated in one of Tactical Potato's vids awhile back - Warframe's endgame is whatever you want it to be: whether its eidolons/arcane hunting, mastering all frames, floof hunting, fashion frame, pushing yourself on 1hr+ runs in endless/ESO/Arbitrations, helping new players on their journey, etc.

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1 hour ago, DeMonkey said:

 

Cool, a single player gets the potential to be a super powerful Operator that... follows behind the frames as they kill everything? Creating new content outside the core gameplay experience doesn't change the fact that the core gameplay experience, the very essence of Warframe, is completely borked and doesn't leave much room for an endgame. What happens when the novelty of this wears off?

 

It would be the whole team as operators dude, with one operator carrying the relic, or the relic may be past around(cause I know your next argument will be it's boring for the one operator carrying the relic). You cant see past your own opinion to admit the fact that content can be inspired. No wonder you were a wukong fan while he was the most boring frame in the game.

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16 hours ago, Klokwerkaos said:

Red text read at 2 min mark: "We will be running a test to see if there is a correlation between people using this exploit and people who complain that warframe is boring".

So yes, I get that red text is cheeky as a matter of historical precedent.

I also get that dog days was not a serious event and was designed to be a bit of cheeky fun that deviates from standard warframe edgelordiness...

The problem I have here is that it shows pretty clearly the Devs still don't take seriously or want to understand the problem of people complaining about warframe being too easy, especially when there are tons of people whining daily about how it's too hard.  This is because they don't understand how to balance the gameplay reward loop vs monetization after all these years to a place where players are happy, or perhaps, that there is outside pressure from their publishers in China, either way, it ends up being a very crappy experience for players.

Here's the thing... Dog Days WAS indeed a great bit of fun... for four missions... however, grinding out 2000+ peals with the current rewards system to obtain some silly cosmetic items that have literally no bearing on gameplay and a few trash mods that maybe five people will find useful, well... guess what, that means if TONS of people are using that exploit that it's PREFERABLE to your designed gameplay loop AND THAT IS THE CORE PROBLEM.

Like everything else, DE will band aid the situation rather than addressing the core issue, which is to either lower the cost, or incentivise the intended gameplay loop to a point where it feels rewarding, which is what many people did... by suggesting kills grant pearls, which is entirely reasonable.

You don't get to pin this on the players DE, that's bad PR, it's your game, your problem, and this has all the problems as the ooblets announcement for Epic, it completely has an important issue to address, but does it in a way that completely ignores legitimate issues and antagonizes the fanbase.  It's crappy. 

Players have legitimate reasons to be frustrated with you and your failure to provide rewarding endgame content of any kind for literally YEARS at this point. 

To be very clear, because of your insane requirements for grind for silly cosmetic items, YOU AND YOU ALONE are responsible for this.  You failed to code it correctly, and you failed to create a rewarding gameplay loop AND YOU put out a half baked event with an exploit and expected people to do what you wanted, which is grind for HOURS on end in a repetitive to death gameplay loop, rather than what they wanted, which was to earn rewards at a reasonable rate. 

To be honest, this is why I really have come to have straight up IRE for DE at this point.  You guys are, each year, eating up more and more good will that you earned in the early days, in exchange for the scummy bussiness practices of EA, Activision and other predatory companies.  I know you've taken some steps to avoid that by trying to please players... like removing random lootbox mods... BUT HOW MANY YEARS DID PEOPLE HAVE TO COMPLAIN BEFORE YOU STOPPED THAT?  Did it happen in a timely fashion, years ago when people first complained about it, or did it happen right around the time that lootboxes started getting governmental bannings that would keep your game out of certain countries?

People have legitimate problems with your game DE.  That's real.

There are real and serious problems to address.

I can and have historically supported the company financially in the past even though I literally need nothing in the game because I have everything for the core gameplay experience... I have done so to the extent where I've spent many, many more dollars than the average player, but this is legitimately the breaking point for me at this point.  From here on out, until I see significant improvement in your care for dealing with these core issues, you will not be seeing any more money from me personally.

To be clear, this isn't the "ONE BIG THING" this is the straw that broke the camels back after literally years of negligence on your part.

Further, I predict, if you guys continue down this road, while I am not the first and certainly won't be the last to make such a proclomation, I believe this problem will start getting worse. 

The gameplay landscape is changing as a whole and people are truly getting fed up with developers and publisher's nonsense.  Even your own long standing youtube partners, many of them are off doing other games entirely because you can't maintain the good will you used to while also seeking to siphon players of their time and money rather than just making a good game.

That's it for DE.  Now for the White knights that defend DE no matter what:  That's cute.  You'll grow out of that once you hit the wall of years of content drought and recognize the game is built on promises and dreams, rather than actual content releases, BY STEVE'S OWN WORDS, which is something most of us knew, but it sure was nice to have his confirmation.  The game, like all other scummy publisher games, is built on hype, not content.

If DE doesn't correct course, they will eventually end up just like EA, Activision, Bethesda and all the other publishers that have rightfully earned the ire of those that once supported them.

WAKE UP DE.  

 

Bring this to the FEEDBACK / GENERAL page so we can express this there. the page you are posting isn't really focused on by the devs.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Goodwill said:

And it's all of a sudden like you forgot everything good that DE has done.

I'm assuming you missed this part of OP's topic, there is more top it, but I wanted to crop the main part of it.

 
 
 
 
17 hours ago, Klokwerkaos said:

Now for the White knights that defend DE no matter what:  That's cute.  You'll grow out of that once you hit the wall of years of content drought and recognize the game, like all other scummy publisher games, is built on hype, not content.

This ^

Edited by Circle_of_Psi
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Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, Toddrusel said:

Bring this to the FEEDBACK / GENERAL page so we can express this there. the page you are posting isn't really focused on by the devs.

I am pretty sure he did post this in Feedback, but it got "moved" (That that as you will). Cuz I think I recall it vanishing when I tired to re-fresh it (it poped up content not here, but then it worked after a few seconds). But I chuold be wrong, as it happened to fast 

Edited by Circle_of_Psi

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Already boring myself with my usual mantra but yeah here it goes:

Essentially i'm d'accord with the simian. Enemy scaling, hit scan weapons (on both sides), OP abilities (including perma-invincibility of operators), weapons and mods and most of all a completely broken energy economy: All basic concepts so fundamentally broken by powercreep and / or half-baked initial design that there's no way of shaping an engaging (end-)game around it (anymore).

What makes an action game skill based (in execution terms)? The ability to decide your fate by reaction time, aiming skills and meter management (among other things). Add team coordination in a true COOP game (which Warframe is not).

The game would need:

- More telegraphed projectile based types of attack that can actively be avoided by reaction time and staying mobile.

- Crit working on critical areas instead of a basic stat, making aim more rewarding. (Damage 3.0 long overdue anyway to make for more variety in weapon builds)

- Most importantly an energy system that's making us use it mindfully and strategically instead of making it possible to hammer out room clearing nukes 24/7:

- So much more in terms of balancing rly...

Not that i have high hopes for anything like that to ever going to happen. Why change a (financial) winning concept while risking to alienate large portions of your playerbase. They'd probably even have to *gasp* ... start playtesting themselves. 😧

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I'm pretty sure if DE would fix the enemy AI,level scaling and reward system ,most people would be satisfied with the progression of the game
But as he said they keep giving us bandaids that tbh aren't quite effective cause they don't usually add that much value to the gameplay.
We're tired of consoling ourselves with "Fashionframe is endgame"
We want something else to do other than have warframe competitions about who can colour their warframe best
Give us gameplay that indulges your gaming skills....Involving coordination and planning...with a variety of gameplay..something nerve wracking (don't you dare say eidolon)
Just anything that can keep us pre occupied while being fun.



 

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They werent talking down on supporters they were clearly talking about the lazy cheaters. Id you dont cheat then it dont affect you. 

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4 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

That's certainly one word for it.

"Blinkered Vision" seems more apt, if you ask me.

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10 hours ago, Lutesque said:

This is The First Thing that came to my mind when I read that Update...

"Okay so I can get more Pearls now.... but the event... mechanically speaking hasn't changed.... its still a repetitive Slog" 

More importantly.... The benefit of AFKing is still there.... are you going to work your ass off to kill some enemies to get 30 more Pearls or.... kill one enemy.  Go hide your frame somewhere and leave for 5 Minutes to make Sandwich ?  

Sure you're getting less pearls but its not costing you anything.... 

Well.... I mean.... those are succesful game companies.... sooooo if what you're saying is true then DE would love nothing more to be right up there with them....

I did the four missions, got a ball for my dojo and was done.  Unlike many people have implied, I'm not just sitting afk farming and salty because an exploit was removed.  I actually praised them for removing the exploit in the OP... and frankly... about an hour after this post they added another patch that added pearls for kills... which is surprising... and frankly yes, many people are AFKing, but not earning the same rewards, and that's fair, for now, especially since they said they'd be fixing the AI, presumably to deal with the AFK issue where the enemy can't reach you well, and that's nice.

The problem for me isn't the event at all, it's not the shallowness of the event... it's the disregard for the legitimate issues with the game that are voices repeatedly, and are, in a contemptuous manner, relegating responsibility of this to the player rather than owning their own failings.  That's what the salt is on my end, of course, along with the fatigue of the very real problems that have been neglected for so long I can only assume they don't actually want those problems fixed and are content just to be happy raking in cash.

If you think DE would love nothing more than to be just like EA, Activision and Bethesda, that's probably because you started the game in a different era.  There was a time, not so long ago, that DE was the shining beacon, with their problems, yes, but the people advancing the narative of what it means to be a good and player centric company.  Many of us saw their effort and signed on because of that and I'm sorry if you didn't get to experience that.

That said, the fact that you don't recognize such a thing about the game in it's current state, exactly proving my point of how far the company has backslid.

Companies like Bethesda, EA, Activision, Rock Star and others are straight up predatory without any doubt that their predatory behavior is absolutely intentional and by design.  That's not a good direction for DE to be heading in, and frankly those companies are having massive losses from recent releases and in stock value, and are facing a global crisis of having many of their games banned or rated M for ESRB when they were previously for children and being relegated under gambling laws... this isn't happening overnight, but it is coming, and that will topple those giants as the CEO's simply give themselves bonuses, exit 1 day before the laws change and the over crunched developers will all be laid off and the company will shut it's doors while they now absent CEO goes and invests in their next rip off scheme.

That's not healthy and saying DE should want that or aspire to be that, and implying that we should be OK with that if they do, is absolutely and insanely damaging.

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10 hours ago, General_Durandal said:

If you don't want the things offered, you don't have to do the mission.
If you want the things offered, then you should.
I got everything I wanted from the event in 3 days, 6 days left till it ends.
I might grab another floof or two since they have physics.

You deflected my argument by not addressing any of the concerns I raised and assumed I had problems with anything you're suggesting.  This is poorly executed distraction and fails to address any of the actual legitimate complaints I have.

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9 hours ago, CeePee said:

Oh look, a wall of text from an exploiter trying to defend his exploits. Yes, DE gets to pin it on you if you used the pause exploit knowingly. 

Simply being AFK in the mission doesn't cross over to an exploit, that's well in the realm of cheesing the content.

Uh, you're assuming I exploited when I said addressing the exploit was important.  Your statement is off base and trash and shows you either didn't read, or if you did, failed to comprehend anything I said, which is fine, you're entiteled to embarrass yourself, just don't expect me to do anything with your argument but point that out.

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6 hours ago, Aldrr said:

To be fair, that was a patch that was after the patch I complained about, about an hour after this post went up.  The assertions about fixing kill count for pearls was already brought up several times.

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5 hours ago, (PS4)ATreidezz said:

Special? OP clearly said that its "some silly cosmetic items that have literally no bearing on gameplay" which is btw, a long way of saying "its irrelevant". 

So why would people fear out of missing "something irrelevant"? 

Then again, i dont understand what you mean by engaging design, is cutting the grind engaging? Is cutting the cost engaging? If people have it all then run back to forum to make another "content drought" thread, is that count as engaging? 

I will field this question.  While "I" find the rewards very meh, and not engaging enough to want to grind, many many many other people will need 50 balls and I have several such people in my clan.  The thing is, it's not meant for me to judge how they enjoy warframe, and we don't all have the same goals in warframe, that's long established.

I do think the rewards table was the right way to go, but that the reward loop is absurd for grind for things that most people won't care about and have no real effect on game play, especially when contrasted to the items you can earn from the event (catalyst, creds, etc) that can be earned in a fraction of the time (literally your first 4 playthroughs).

Even that though isn't my main gripe per se, it's that DE is abdicating responsibility for their own failings onto the player rather than taking player criticisms seriously and actually improving the game.

Notice how nobody is arguing that the event is half baked and the rewards are crap, that's because it's a given that this is the state of the mode.  While that's not what I'm complaining about specifically here, it is indeed a problem that should be fixed, and thankfully they took steps to address that about an hour after I posted this rant and it got some traction.  Is that my fault?  Certainly not directly and probably not at all, but it may have helped grease the gears to make something actually happen since the first hotfix did not include this fix.

That said, my main gripe is DE jumping over the line.  I can be patient with them and have for years... but that good will A) will break down over time as real issues are increasingly neglected, and B) the moment they start blaming the player base for their own shoddy game design, which is what happened.

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15 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

As we would say in my county "geez an ages man! whey sah is like real big stone getting pelt in real people garden! Erybodee get tootoolbay wit dat one, oui! And now dey jus dey playin ded to ketch corbeau alive".

🤔 I suppose that makes a lot more sense when you grew up drinking rum on a fairly regular basis. 😁

Now for seriousness:

There's a better way, I figure. Make it base pearls + (%damage dealt/100)*total team kill count. 

That cuts out problems of "kill stealing" but still rewards the people who are actively participating.

Can't remember how to quote partial on mobile, but I agree this is a much better take on my thoughts. 

I didn't suggest something so robust because DE seems hell bent against making tough content that directly rewards performance. 

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, (PS4)tissot555 said:

You're thinking within the restraints of my example. You have to realise your argument is that because warframes can do this, that means we cant have endgame. When the thought should be, because warframes can do this, we need this in our endgame. 

The challenge is to answer all of the questions you just asked me. The devs should challenge themselves to make new, engaging content around the warframes and weapons they've already created. 

Also can you really not see past the word jumping lol? If I called it a dashing puzzle would you be on board. But forget the dashing puzzle. What if during a raid players came to a void chasm that only operators could go into. What if there was a relic that one operator had to hold and it connected the operator to the warframe in a way that let the operator have the warframes health, armor and weapons. And just for that breif but awesome section of the raid, operators fought through the hordes 

Just think outside the box man. Maybe I'm just a visionary.

I agree with this assessment.  The main problem with busted frames is the enemies have no way to answer them except to die.  The answer isn't in my opinion, to take away player ability, but instead, to have the enemies be able to deal with those abilities in another fashion.

DeMonkey brought up earlier about Octavia's Mallet being a problem.  What if you just make a leader enemy type that allows them to cast pbaoe focus fire buff and they are immune to aggro abilities (such as saryn 2) but will focus on the player that presents the most threat to their squad?  That isn't' octavia specific, but it does deal with that mallet ability directly, while presenting challenges to other players as well.  If I can come up with an answer in literally 30 seconds for any ability named, why can't DE when it's literally their job?

Any other problematic ability, I'm sure I can address too.  Got an infinitely invisible player? give a unit heat vision goggles, does this mean the invisibility is useless, no, it means that you need to avoid running into LoS for that unit...  Got another issue, I'm sure I can figure out how to counter it.  If I can figure it out in seconds, why can't DE?

 

Edited by Klokwerkaos

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