Dog Days Exploit Hot Fix Red Text, Don't talk down at your supporters DE

[Fire2box]

4 minutes ago, o0Despair0o said:

You lost me there. Warframe isn't hard, but it definitely isn't easy UNLESS you grind for the best stuff you can possibly get. And Rivens made it worse.

If you're a casual player - like most people in this game, let's be real here - there's a fair amount of difficulty past level 30. I remember when I was new here, T1 void missions were hard AF to solo for me back then. I didn't even dare to play T4 unless I had friends with me.

 

The REAL problem with Warframe is that the Dev's seem to prefer taking "advice" from narrow minded people who don't even understand the basic game mechanics and make changes based on those - because the casual playerbase is where the money is. As a result, Veteran players feel like it's getting too easy. But that's wrong. While the game definitely is not as hard as 4-5 years ago, it also isn't easy. Again, unless you grind for the best stuff available.

Most threads complaining about difficulty often (note that I said "often", not "always") "recommend" things like adding even more enemy spawns, or increasing enemy damage output. But that's not making the game harder - it's just making it even more unbalanced. Take Profit Taker for example. It's basically Knockdown Simulator 2020. The challange isn't in the boss itself, it's in the fact that you don't even get to fight it due to being stunlocked 24/7.

 

Really, if you want a "real" challange, remove your mods and build a low-tier weapon like Aklato and the regular Boltor - and go play a level 40+ mission. There's your challange.

if you are MR 20 or higher you should have zero problems running any normal or fisher node across the starchart. It's only when we get new boss fights like eidolons, orb fights and lv 80+ to start with missions where we are presented with challenge. 

 

As for the whole take off all your mods. yeah that presents some challenge if you aren't using something like Rhino vs Titania. But in every other video game I've ever played. It's not the player who has to design content and challenges it's been the devs. 

Edited August 7, 2019 by Fire2box

[DeMonkey]

1 hour ago, Klokwerkaos said:

~snip~

I'm going to need to see a lot more before I'm convinced. Off hand comments like, 

"maybe it converts it into a pbaoe shield for it's allies too so they aren"t so squishy...  that solves a good number of frames right there..."

Are vague and unhelpful. How much of a shield? How is this shield going to be any different to more health, something that's never slowed us down before now? How exactly does giving enemies a bigger health buffer "solve a good number of frames"? How is an enemy that drains energy by attacking going to affect Octavia when she's invisible?

So lets say that there are these new unit types, you'd need a heat vision one to actually attack her who also has the benefit of energy drain, and they need to be accompanied by an anti aggro leader lest they just get crowd controlled immediately by the Mallet, to say nothing of the crowd control they'll have to walk through on the way, nor the damage from the mallet and any other sources of AoE damage that will affect them.

You may, in your head, believe that you have the solutions to all the problems, but the things that you are typing are not actionable and furthermore whatever complaints about "changing the entire game" that people may have about my opinion are far more noticeable in yours.

You're proposing a plethora of enemy additions designed solely to work around our cheese, potentially invalidating entire kits. We could go from one extreme of being so powerful that we invalidate the core gameplay, to having some of the core gameplay invalidated for us because enemies need to ignore our invisibility, taunt mechanics and build up resistances to our CC just to do anything to us. How is that any better?

Frankly the entire game would still need a rework because this has the potential to completely ruin certain frames, like for example Loki, meaning massive steps will need to be taken to ensure that the enemies are fair across the board and that frames are still considered viable for the content. How is that any different to what I'm suggesting, which is a full rework?

And, as already said, I need to see a lot more to be convinced. Just throwing random ideas at me about "heat vision goggles", "anti aggro" mechanics and "shield buffs" do not an endgame make.

Edited August 7, 2019 by DeMonkey

[o0Despair0o]

1 minute ago, Fire2box said:

if you are MR 20

Last time I checked I was around MR 18, and I've been playing this game for over 4 years.

And while I have no problems with normal missions, I do think that there is a fair bit of challange past level 60 for me. Not "hard" so to speak, but not a walk in the park, either.

[SneakyErvin]

When I read some comment in this thread about how redtext is evil and how DE just fixed an exploit and solved nothing I get really curious if about if people even read the freakin patch notes.

Are any of you that still complain about lack of rewards in squirtfest aware of that you get pearls per kill now aswell? That means that the reward for any avarage player got increased by roughly 50%. That means they just cut down the grind and time needed by around 50% aswell for the avarage player that intends to actually play the game mode and not just afk/exploit.

Edited August 8, 2019 by SneakyErvin

[General_Durandal]

9 hours ago, Klokwerkaos said:

the actual legitimate complaints I have.

Like what?

[(PSN)connort54321]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

When I read some comment in this thread about how redtext is evil and how DE just fixed an exploit and solved nothing I get really curious if about if people even read the freakin patch notes.

Are any of you that still complain about lack of rewards in squirtfest aware of that you get pearls per kill now aswell? That means that the reward for any avarage player got increased by roughly 50%. That means they just cut down the grind and time needed by around 50% aswell for the avarage player that intends to actually play the game mode and not just afk/exploit.

This post was made before that patch, they released the red text that everyone is annoyed about and released the pearls per kill later on, that’s what I ca. Gather from these posts anyway, was away when it all went down.

[General_Durandal]

On 2019-08-06 at 1:41 PM, Klokwerkaos said:

years of content drought

A game can't have infinite things to do forever.
That is when you play other games, instead of complaining at them to add things faster.
Because when they add things faster, they are less polished.

[General_Durandal]

On 2019-08-06 at 1:41 PM, Klokwerkaos said:

If DE doesn't correct course, they will eventually end up just like EA, Activision, Bethesda

It's already there, and does it better.
Micro-transactions with plat,
gaming as a service, 
paid mods with TennoGen.

DE has the same problems, but they are well polished and less obtrusive.

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

3 hours ago, Aldain said:

Hey look a "You're mad so you must be -insert label here-" comment.

How quaint.

You spelled "apropos" incorrectly. 

[General_Durandal]

On 2019-08-06 at 1:41 PM, Klokwerkaos said:

the game is built on promises and dreams, rather than actual content releases

Well, they can't just magically have the things they talk about, they need to make the content first.
I'm still waiting for helmets colorable separately from bodies, the irl gun skins, and the Orbiter overhaul.
They be added eventually.

[General_Durandal]

On 2019-08-06 at 1:41 PM, Klokwerkaos said:

To be very clear, because of your insane requirements for grind for silly cosmetic items, YOU AND YOU ALONE are responsible for this.  You failed to code it correctly, and you failed to create a rewarding gameplay loop AND YOU put out a half baked event with an exploit and expected people to do what you wanted, which is grind for HOURS on end in a repetitive to death gameplay loop, rather than what they wanted, which was to earn rewards at a reasonable rate. 

The grind to get resources is a pretty big problem in some cases.
Like with the Hema, that thing needed way to much of the mutagen thingy.
But the only way to really fix the problem is to make rare things less rare, and reduce the amount of things you can get from certain things.
In order to do that they'd have to add more mission types to thin the reward tables of the already existing reward tables.

What do you suggest to deal with the problem?

[(PSN)connort54321]

 The issue with that red text isn’t that it insulted people using the glitch but instead grouped up people who are unhappy and bored with how the game is currently with people who couldn’t be bothered to sit in a corner for 5 minutes ( which can’t really be blamed on them tbh, what’s the insentive to actually kill things, 1 Pearl per kill? That’s still a tiny amount for the cost of the rewards, you can’t even buy the basic floof with the pearls earned from doing the challenges so it’s not like you can earn it as your going along doing the missions but you are forced to return to the game mode to buy the most basic of a decoration type which nullifies the point of it being a fun game mode, being forced to do a game mode removes the fun aspect and replaces it with ‘compulsory’ instead if you want a basically worthless item that has no need for its high cost, big brackets I know lol) it’s insulting as they know how those players feel as they clearly reference them and instantly assume that they fall under the same catergory as the people using bugs for some reason, I understand that the red text was most likely a joke, although with DE it’s hard to tell what they were intending it to be, but a joke like that doesn’t come out of thin air, there was inspiration somewhere and I don’t get the impression that it was positive inspiration 

[Klokwerkaos]

4 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

How much of a shield? How is this shield going to be any different to more health, something that's never slowed us down before now? How exactly does giving enemies a bigger health buffer "solve a good number of frames"? How is an enemy that drains energy by attacking going to affect Octavia when she's invisible?

1) Precise numbers would need to be tuned.  Enough so I don't one shot them with my zaw which does more damage than wukong's staff.
2) It's not about the health buff, you're thinking too small, it's about the combined nature... you have a shot that sapps... that show is a random shot from the horde, maybe one in four hits you... it sapps your energy and provides them with a bonus shield that makes them tougher while making your offensive capabilities weaker.  
3) Invisible enemies still take damage, plus again, slap the goggles on one of these bad boys, or have a leader that has focus fire that directs the line of fire in her direction, because even shooting blindly in her direction, massively changes the game vs enemies just being completely unaware.

Again, it's not about one thing fixing all things it's about a 1000 cuts.  The reason you don't want to make it all stack on at once is because if one particular enemy situation gets too OP, players of a lower caliber will be completely unable to deal with it if it's tuned to be greatly impacting min/max load outs, where as if it's tuned to be a minor situation for min/max load outs, enough of them stacked together starts to create actual pressure, where as a player with a lesser load out can still manage it, but has to go much slower and much more carefully.

 

 

4 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

So lets say that there are these new unit types, you'd need a heat vision one to actually attack her who also has the benefit of energy drain, and they need to be accompanied by an anti aggro leader lest they just get crowd controlled immediately by the Mallet, to say nothing of the crowd control they'll have to walk through on the way, nor the damage from the mallet and any other sources of AoE damage that will affect them.

And maybe there's heat camera's that detect if you walk in their range, much like how the laser doors work, and those auto deploy leader units...   I mean there's a lot of ways to work on each stage of it... you just have to use all the things available... and yes, that will change the flow of the game, and that's kind of the exact point.

 

 

4 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

Frankly the entire game would still need a rework because this has the potential to completely ruin certain frames, like for example Loki, meaning massive steps will need to be taken to ensure that the enemies are fair across the board and that frames are still considered viable for the content. How is that any different to what I'm suggesting, which is a full rework?

Loki is far from useless with these situations, actually, he's better off than octavia, because even if they spot him... boom irradiating disarm.  Disarm isn't a sort of aggro, it's an attack.  Mallet requires aggro to work, without it, it does no damage.

Yes, it will cause things to change if you add new challenge types... and yes, that will cause players to rethink how they approach challenges... that's kind of the point... but the problem is that the enemy has no response to certain frames... so the logical step is to get them a response.

Will people cry about that?  Of course they will.  But it's better than straight up taking away what they have earned.  This way what they have earned is still valid, just not every single use case.  So this way that three months of plat X user grinded up to get the perfect set up... it's still valid, and even useful here, just not the same way as it is in the typical star chart nonsense...

Another thing I can think of is a noise disruptor that A) would directly affect the use of music, but B) would also cause a mild CC on frames of sorts by being a sort of sonic attack in a persisted targeted AoE.

Again, yes, these things will need new responses, and it would require players change up their responses in turn, and yes a new meta would emerge, but the key isn't to have 1 solution, because then a new meta will immediately emerge, the key instead is to have so many different permutations of what can happen with the 1000 cuts that no frame or load out is the best frame or load out because so many different things could possible happen, all of which will require active response from the player.  That is how you create not even the endgame, but the possibility for one to exist.  

Until enemies have actual responses, pose an actual threat and are not mindless horde dummies that are insta one shot, they are never going to be a threat of any kind, period.

Add in stuff like legit mini bosses that are stuff like in between exploiter orb and fodder as typical units, and then say, an actually mechanically challenging fight that has more than one layer like current bosses in the game, and you'd be on the way to starting to design a proper challenge.




 

Edited August 8, 2019 by Klokwerkaos

[Klokwerkaos]

2 hours ago, General_Durandal said:

Like what?

You are welcome to read and comprehend.  Others have done so just fine.  If you choose not to, that's your adult choice.

Edited August 8, 2019 by Klokwerkaos

[Hawk_of_the_Reborn]

Event was good before the patch, now it's crap. Too easy to get everything. I couldn't even miss out on any of the rewards even if I never played the game.

-1

[(NSW)Lunavay]

7 hours ago, Tinklzs said:

You're looking at the symptom (idling/afk) and not the actual problem (the event is boring, so boring infact players would rather idle it). 

Solution to problem? Make it more entertaining, and make it so idling can't happen. So, problem gets fixed and quality of content goes up (win win).

It's completely 2 separate issues. The event is boring does not justify exploiting the game; being poor doesn't justify stealing or having lower IQ doesn't justify cheating.

They still have every right to discourage the behavior. So what I don't get is why some people are so hurt bout something that they are right and have every right to do. 🤣 

 

[DeMonkey]

1 hour ago, Klokwerkaos said:

Again, it's not about one thing fixing all things it's about a 1000 cuts.  The reason you don't want to make it all stack on at once is because if one particular enemy situation gets too OP, players of a lower caliber will be completely unable to deal with it if it's tuned to be greatly impacting min/max load outs, where as if it's tuned to be a minor situation for min/max load outs, enough of them stacked together starts to create actual pressure, where as a player with a lesser load out can still manage it, but has to go much slower and much more carefully.

I'm just questioning how plausible it is for all of these stacking effects to actually have the desired outcome, and how complicated it will make the game.

People "REE" whenever they read the word nerf and complain about not wanting to "try hard", but in a lot of respects by designing enemies that cover everything we're capable of you are designing a game that requires you to tryhard.

Your answers to the questions I posed didn't actually answer my questions.

1 hour ago, Klokwerkaos said:

And maybe there's heat camera's that detect if you walk in their range, much like how the laser doors work, and those auto deploy leader units...   I mean there's a lot of ways to work on each stage of it... you just have to use all the things available... and yes, that will change the flow of the game, and that's kind of the exact point.

Why make the game more complicated and design all these mechanics just for an endgame, when you could simply make us somewhat less deadly and have the same outcome? How many additional mechanics need to be slapped on before we're actually countered?

1 hour ago, Klokwerkaos said:

Loki is far from useless with these situations, actually, he's better off than octavia, because even if they spot him... boom irradiating disarm.  Disarm isn't a sort of aggro, it's an attack.  Mallet requires aggro to work, without it, it does no damage.

You're proposing CC resistance as well, due to the infinite duration of Disarm the only resistance you can give enemies to it is to simply have them not be disarmed, thus meaning he'll still get shot.

Or it remains a permanent effect he can apply to everything, thus making his CC vastly superior to all other CC's that will be resisted.

You see what I mean about how things would still need to be reworked?

Proposing greater health values is the same as reducing our damage output, proposing CC resistance has the same effect as just reducing how powerful our CC is etc.

I'm only questioning the examples you're providing because I'm concerned the enemy pool will become so bloated with variations that the correct counter to a frame happens once in a blue moon. We already have an enemy type that can see through invisibility, they still aren't a threat.

[General_Durandal]

12 hours ago, Klokwerkaos said:

the actual legitimate complaints I have.

~

3 hours ago, General_Durandal said:

Like what?

~

1 hour ago, Klokwerkaos said:

You are welcome to read and comprehend.  Others have done so just fine.  If you choose not to, that's your adult choice.

~
You are welcome to read and comprehend as well,
because I responded to a few things at the same time as the "Like what" reply,
which if you had time to reply to that, then you had time to reply to the others.

[LupisV0lk]

7 hours ago, Aldain said:

Hey look a "You're mad so you must be -insert label here-" comment.

How quaint.

It's not like he's not wrong.

[Tinklzs]

1 hour ago, (NSW)Lunavay said:

It's completely 2 separate issues. The event is boring does not justify exploiting the game; being poor doesn't justify stealing or having lower IQ doesn't justify cheating.

They still have every right to discourage the behavior. So what I don't get is why some people are so hurt bout something that they are right and have every right to do. 🤣 

 

I never said that it excused the behavior, DE can look at this and see why players are afking it. So you increase the rewards (which they did, although not the way I would've done it, but they at least did something), and then make it more fun (while removing the afk ability entirely) by doing a handful of things 

Adding new squirt gun weapons, possibly one for each ranged weapon type we have (sniper, Grenade launcher's as examples) for variation. Maybe give us a table, like when we first started warframe to select the MK-1 weapons, at the start of the match. And enough so everyone can use the same weapon type if they desire.

Can't think of anything else at the moment, but I hope you understand where I"m coming from. 

From a developer perspective it is DE's job not only to ensure a level of balance is obtained (so no afks) but to figure out why such things are occuring to begin with. Finding the source of the issue (which is all over the forums), and trying different ways to fix it, is the best course of action next to increasing rewards to help ease the grind.   Again, it doesn't excuse the afk behavior, and I"m not promoting it, but it does help explain it. Because other games have had similar problems, and those developers fixed it in the same manor I mentioned above.

 

 

[(XBOX)Papa Requiem]

On 2019-08-06 at 1:41 PM, Klokwerkaos said:

Red text read at 2 min mark: "We will be running a test to see if there is a correlation between people using this exploit and people who complain that warframe is boring".

Don't complain about a fun summer event and then call Warframe boring when you cheese. if you're offended at Red Text then you're clearly the target demographic that cheese everything in the game and then complain that the game is boring.

[Klokwerkaos]

1 hour ago, (XB1)RevenantRequiem said:

Don't complain about a fun summer event and then call Warframe boring when you cheese. if you're offended at Red Text then you're clearly the target demographic that cheese everything in the game and then complain that the game is boring.

You know, you're probably the third person in this thread to completely not read my post and accuse me of using the exploit when I didn't and actively praised DE for fixing it... but hey, nice post.  Good job, champ.

Edited August 8, 2019 by Klokwerkaos

[Circle_of_Psi]

53 minutes ago, Klokwerkaos said:

You know, you're probably the third person in this thread to completely not read my post and accuse me of using the exploit when I didn't and actively praised DE for fixing it... but hey, nice post.  Good job, champ.

The truth hurts, I'm afraid and it's hard for them to understand that.

All the "Ha-Has" you have as well proves that point as well, as well as comments like you mentioned, thus the post you said how adorable/cute it is just correct in this matter. Just let them feel like they are doing something, I mean who else is gonna polish the gates?

Although with that being said, I am quite srupised the topic lasted this long, most of the time it gets down-voted to hell or falsely reported, or someone deletes it from existence, but i am glad it's still up and hopefully you'll be heard.
_{^{(you probably won't)}}  

[(NSW)Lunavay]

2 hours ago, Tinklzs said:

I never said that it excused the behavior, DE can look at this and see why players are afking it. So you increase the rewards (which they did, although not the way I would've done it, but they at least did something), and then make it more fun (while removing the afk ability entirely) by doing a handful of things 

Adding new squirt gun weapons, possibly one for each ranged weapon type we have (sniper, Grenade launcher's as examples) for variation. Maybe give us a table, like when we first started warframe to select the MK-1 weapons, at the start of the match. And enough so everyone can use the same weapon type if they desire.

Can't think of anything else at the moment, but I hope you understand where I"m coming from. 

From a developer perspective it is DE's job not only to ensure a level of balance is obtained (so no afks) but to figure out why such things are occuring to begin with. Finding the source of the issue (which is all over the forums), and trying different ways to fix it, is the best course of action next to increasing rewards to help ease the grind.   Again, it doesn't excuse the afk behavior, and I"m not promoting it, but it does help explain it. Because other games have had similar problems, and those developers fixed it in the same manor I mentioned above.

 

 

I understand where you are coming from and appreciate you explaining it. The red texts are pretty funny and deserve nowhere near amount of anger from this post. Reading it feels like DE burnt down the backyard of OP and some people in this thread.

[Klokwerkaos]

5 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

I'm just questioning how plausible it is for all of these stacking effects to actually have the desired outcome, and how complicated it will make the game.

People "REE" whenever they read the word nerf and complain about not wanting to "try hard", but in a lot of respects by designing enemies that cover everything we're capable of you are designing a game that requires you to tryhard.

Your answers to the questions I posed didn't actually answer my questions.

Why make the game more complicated and design all these mechanics just for an endgame, when you could simply make us somewhat less deadly and have the same outcome? How many additional mechanics need to be slapped on before we're actually countered?

You're proposing CC resistance as well, due to the infinite duration of Disarm the only resistance you can give enemies to it is to simply have them not be disarmed, thus meaning he'll still get shot.

Or it remains a permanent effect he can apply to everything, thus making his CC vastly superior to all other CC's that will be resisted.

You see what I mean about how things would still need to be reworked?

Proposing greater health values is the same as reducing our damage output, proposing CC resistance has the same effect as just reducing how powerful our CC is etc.

I'm only questioning the examples you're providing because I'm concerned the enemy pool will become so bloated with variations that the correct counter to a frame happens once in a blue moon. We already have an enemy type that can see through invisibility, they still aren't a threat.

i understand the concerns, but part of the reason the addition in new content vs take away is better is because:

A) more enemy reponses = more engaging play at higher levels
B) nerfs feel bad, buffs feel good
C) taking away early progression methods vs adding to endgame means unhinging the entire economy.  this might not mean much to you by the difference between spending 3 min per relic run vs 6 min is a steep 50% loss in plat.  worse, i don't know if you've ever funded a moon tier dojo< but farming for them becoming even worse is horrible.

since both things require reworks (in your case the economy), it makes sense to me to choose for something that feels better and increases active engagement of players at endgame levels.

consider for example, how destiny 2 is able to increase gameplay engagement through enemy diversity.  granted you can't just port what they did here directly since they are different games, but that doesn't mean we can't learn from their examples of what they get right that warframe doesn't