High skill ceiling weapons & frames & abilities should be better

[tzaeru]

Heya,

So yeah this is one of those things that some of us love to complain about every month! I've myself made similar topics in the past and to celebrate the fact that I've been playing again - my annual WF fix - I wanted to make Yet Another Topic about the subject!

Balance. What's balance, exactly? I'd be tempted to say that balance means viability and diversity. It means that for a given scenario, you have multiple correct ways to approach it, with no one way being clearly superior to all others. That's viability. For diversity, it means that there are multiple different scenarios in the game for which different approaches are required. In a strategy game, for example, you use spearmen to counter cavalry so every game can not be only about cavalry, as that would be countered too easily. Diversity is about tradeoffs; you pick something that has specific weakness and specific strengths and hope that it's a good fit for the situation. But no one approach beats all scenarios.

With a game the size of Warframe, absolute balance is a pipe dream. There will always be OP frames, OP weapons. There's always going to be a meta that a large part of the playerbase religiously follows. It's also a game about grinding, basically, which means that players are incentivized to min-max for maximum grinding speed. So easy to use OP frames are always going to be popular.

One thing that could be influenced however is how you are rewarded for using frames and weapons and abilities that require higher skill. This would make there be a tradeoff for your chosen approach depending on your own skill, which incentivizes improving your playing skill, which in turn creates another goal; not only do you want to get the loot, but you also may want to improve your playing skill so that in the future, you can get loot faster.

Example: Banshee's Sonar and Vectis Prime. For those of you in the dark, Sonar adds a special hilighted critical point on enemies in range and hitting that gives a damage increase ranging in practice from 10x to 20x. Vectis Prime is one of the best snipers in the game and has some of the highest single-shot damage outputs for any rifle or sniper.

But you don't really see either being ran seriously. Even if you're highly skilled with your aim, Vectis Prime simply doesn't do as much damage as Amprex or Ignis Wraith or so that do not need any aim whatsoever. You don't really see Banshee either since you've alternatives that nuke the whole map with one click; or make you (close to) invulnerable to damage; or increase the amount of loot; or so on. Damage amplification that does not apply to nuke abilities like Saryn's 4 are simply not necessary.

Simply increasing the damage of high skill ceiling abilities and weapons isn't the key either, since they can never match nuking the whole map or being invulnerable or so. Hence, something else is needed. Either the nuke, invulnerability and so on abilities and the overpowered beam weapons need to be drastically weakened or we need new challenging content where those abilities and weapons do not apply as much.

Players really should be rewarded for being able to dodge enemy projectiles, having a good aim, and prioritizing their targets smartly. At the moment, they aren't rewarded for that. There are stronger alternatives that require far less skill to pull off. This is a problematic situation and at least for me shortens the amount of time I want to spend with the game at a time.

Edited August 7, 2019 by tzaeru

[kingvaldemir]

49 minutes ago, tzaeru said:

Players really should be rewarded for being able to dodge enemy projectiles, having a good aim, and prioritizing their targets smartly.

Ideally, this is what Warframe should shoot for. But really, I won't get my hopes up. That being said, in ropalolyst boss fight, DE did implement some attacks that should be dodged by players, or else it deals quite some damage. There are also some missile attack from the Profit taker boss, but they are homing missiles that you are basically can't dodge, and it deals insignificant amount of damage (at least for me). Ropalolyst also has it, but it's always miss and small damage as well. Exploiter has one nuke missile that telegraphed, but it's painfully slow, especially if it's compared to our warframe's speed, it's just bad.

 

1 hour ago, tzaeru said:

Simply increasing the damage of high skill ceiling abilities and weapons isn't the key either, since they can never match nuking the whole map or being invulnerable or so. Hence, something else is needed. Either the nuke, invulnerability and so on abilities and the overpowered beam weapons need to be drastically weakened or we need new challenging content where those abilities and weapons do not apply as much.

I think Warframe needs to 'redefine' some of the abilities to determine which abilities works on which encounter. Right now, if an encounter has immunity to warframe ability, it applies to ALL abilities.I think it's better if it just immune to 'some' abilities. For example, profit taker could be immune to like mesa's 4, volt 4, saryn's 4, and so on. But it's not immune to banshee's sonar and mag's magnetize, so those warframe can support other team mates to damage the boss.

 

Just some ideas. I'd like to see fun un-cheese-able content in Warframe like that, but yeah, wouldn't get my hopes up.

[Velothed]

17 minutes ago, kingvaldemir said:

I think Warframe needs to 'redefine' some of the abilities to determine which abilities works on which encounter. Right now, if an encounter has immunity to warframe ability, it applies to ALL abilities.I think it's better if it just immune to 'some' abilities.

I really like this idea, make some enemies immune to damage abilities/not taking damage from abilities, or even give an aura that does the same. This would also give more use to cc in those kind of scenarios. It's either this or nerfing aoe damage frames and I really don't want that. Saryn has been my favorite frame for a couple of years now and I'm really happy with how her kit works right now. Having some enemies not be damaged by her abilities could be quite interesting, because she would become a debuffer in those situations.

[Senguash]

42 minutes ago, kingvaldemir said:

I think it's better if it just immune to 'some' abilities. For example, profit taker could be immune to like mesa's 4, volt 4, saryn's 4, and so on. But it's not immune to banshee's sonar and mag's magnetize, so those warframe can support other team mates to damage the boss.

You picked some bad examples.

Saryns 4 deals 150 viral damage per second. That's practically meaningless because you have weapons that can deal, lets say, 20k damage per second.
Now lets say we have a chroma with a +900% buff and a rhino with a +150% buff. That brings us to 500k damage per second.
Now lets assume banshee works on a boss, and let's say there's a banshee with 200% powerstrength, low again but lets keep it simple.
That makes sonar a 10x damage multiplier. The banshee just spams sonar, and it's a boss so the spots are huge.

If two sonar spots overlap the damage amp stacks multiplicatively resulting in 500k x 100 = 50 million damage per second.

And after a few seconds the boss would be covered in these spots.

Meanwhile saryns miasma is still dealing 150 damage per second. Just 150.

This kind of highlights the problem with the idea. There's a few abilities which would completely annihilate a bossfight if they worked, but most abilities would still be pretty much useless if they worked.

By having none of them work you make it so people aren't surprised when for example sonar doesn't work.

Edited August 7, 2019 by Senguash

[tzaeru]

56 minutes ago, kingvaldemir said:

I think Warframe needs to 'redefine' some of the abilities to determine which abilities works on which encounter. Right now, if an encounter has immunity to warframe ability, it applies to ALL abilities.I think it's better if it just immune to 'some' abilities.

I really like this idea. I wonder if there was some generalization that could be made? Like, immunity to damage from abilities and immune to say, stun and paralysis, but not immune to anything else? Something to that effect. These sort of immunities are common in MMORPGs and MOBAs so players should have no trouble understanding them.

Still doesn't fix beam weapons being massively stronger choices than e.g. snipers or bows that require genuine skill to use effectively, but a good start nevertheless.

17 minutes ago, Senguash said:

Saryns 4 deals 150 viral damage per second. That's practically meaningless because you have weapons that can deal, lets say, 20k damage per second.

On paper yeah but this is ignoring how it works in practice. You're close-to maximized for strength and have Spores on the enemy and you're doing a total of ~20 000 damage in 3.5 seconds plus your spores have been decreasing the enemy armor beforehand already plus you're dealing Viral procs that halve enemy healths. Maximization tab for Miasma on the wiki explains how it works.

Edited August 7, 2019 by tzaeru

[kingvaldemir]

31 minutes ago, Senguash said:

You picked some bad examples.

31 minutes ago, Senguash said:

This kind of highlights the problem with the idea. There's a few abilities which would completely annihilate a bossfight if they worked, but most abilities would still be pretty much useless if they worked.

Though I would like to discuss the math more, I believe it would make the conversation deviate from the topic of the thread. Nevertheless! Assuming your math is somewhat correct, your statement is true to some degree. Tbh, my goal is make the warframe option wider, while also keep what OP wants, which is rewarding "high skilled" play. It is, however kinda hard to implement as it may require major overhauls to how enemies and warframe's abilities work. 

That banshee's sonar for example, is way too op right? not to mention it can cover all the bosses surface (which contradicts with "high skilled play") and it can even overlap. So the solution is making the profit taker has some weak points, and maybe instead of covering all of the boss surface, banshee's sonar highlights the boss's weak points and amplify the damage even more. And of course some tweaks in the number so it won't be too crazy.

But as I said, just from 1 example is way too much work and I don't think DE can pulled it off. Things like these are the reason raids were removed. As scott said 'it require specific coding to a very specific circumstances'.

 

Edited August 7, 2019 by kingvaldemir

[kgabor]

2 hours ago, tzaeru said:

But you don't really see either being ran seriously.

I do, not by others though, these are some of the kinds of frames and weapons i would be bored to death without while playing Wf.

Banshee imo. in particular needs an ability change from Sound Quake to a better one, an exalted sniper/dagger or an invis on headshot kind of ability with a slight drain on trigger would work way better with Banshee's kit. (i would change Sonar to slowly shift to head hitboxes too, 10-15 seconds would be fine imo.)

That alone would make using the frame already way more rewarding than currently.

I would add a sniper mod, something called something like Shrapnel Bullet or Frag Bullet or something similar, which would trigger a  lowish range slash proc AoE on headshots, dealing a % of the weapon's base damage to the ones caught in the AoE.

[kingvaldemir]

3 minutes ago, tzaeru said:

Still doesn't fix beam weapons being massively stronger choices than e.g. snipers or bows that require genuine skill to use effectively, but a good start nevertheless.

Regarding this specific problem, I think Warframe is quite alright with it. I mean, beam weapons, albeit good at clearing high amount of enemies, I think it's not that great to kill a single strong enemy such as, lvl 120+ grineer eximus unit and demolyst.

Sniper finds it's place at Eidolon and Thumper fight so I think it's quite okay. Bows, however, still kinda lackluster. I think the problem is: Snipers and bows are both single target weapon, while most of Warframe's missions favors weapons that can kills bunch of weak enemies at a short amount of time.

Bows suffers more because it doesn't have the critical multiplier like the sniper has, making it even inferior to even snipers. Lol, even in Destiny, bows are also have low use in that game, though some bows that have perks that can deal AoE when enemies are killed is quite okay.

[kingvaldemir]

6 minutes ago, kgabor said:

I would add a sniper mod, something called something like Shrapnel Bullet or Frag Bullet or something similar, which would trigger a  lowish range slash proc AoE on headshots, dealing a % of the weapon's base damage to the ones caught in the AoE.

^This is nice. Bows can have it too!

[Aldain]

I could be down for something like that.

Honestly I can't remember the last time I bothered bringing a bow that wasn't Ivara's exalted weapon for example.

Kinda hard to bother bringing a weapon like a bow when any other player likely has an aoe weapon like the Ignis Wraith and has likely killed everything before the arrow even get half way to a single enemy.

[(PSN)wildcats1369my]

one of the main issue is that most players never leave the easy mode. one rotation and they are out heck some leave after one set. enemies lvl50 below are trash they doesnt last a second to most of the weapon. 

who can blame them there is no point fight higher lvl enemies because the rewards are same. there is no incentive staying for the challenge. 

Give players a reason to play higher lvl content and the nuke frames will be will be welcomed instead of shunned. support frames will be favored and defense frame can shine... heck you might even thank limbo for banishing you to the rift. 

this could be as easy as editing the loot table to have rewards on higher lvl mobs. the higher the lvl the better the rewards should be. 

[Velothed]

17 minutes ago, (PS4)wildcats1369my said:

heck you might even thank limbo for banishing you to the rift. 

I was never once annoyed to be banished, if I see a limbo I often follow him around to use his little rifts or ask him to banish me.

[(PSN)wildcats1369my]

24 minutes ago, Vethalon said:

I was never once annoyed to be banished, if I see a limbo I often follow him around to use his little rifts or ask him to banish me.

nice. but most are annoyed because it breaks the play flow. you are shooting someone and then suddenly you dont deal damage because you are not on the same plane

[tzaeru]

Well, to me, Limbo kinda represents one of those unnecessarily powerful frames. Especially defense and mobile defense is completely trivialized by him. Rifting other players is a neat ability, but Catacylysm + Statis is just a bit too stronk - it's a superpowered Snow Globe, basically.

[Tiltskillet]

13 hours ago, kgabor said:

I would add a sniper mod, something called something like Shrapnel Bullet or Frag Bullet or something similar, which would trigger a  lowish range slash proc AoE on headshots, dealing a % of the weapon's base damage to the ones caught in the AoE.

Snipers -might- need something like that on top of their combo system, scope mechanics, and gas builds, but wouldn't you say other single target weapon classes need the help even more? 

In any case, I'm sure mods should be part of the solution, but I think headshots need some extra baseline mechanical incentives.  For me the two things that come to mind are a buff to the next weapon attack (e.g., can be a body shot, a shot with a different ranged weapon, a melee attack, whatever.) and an affinity bonus for headshot kills.  (An AoE effect like what you're proposing is probably better handled through a mod.)

One problem that I see with this is that it's pretty easy to get a fair amount of headshots with weapons that one doesn't think of as precise.   For instance I can get 10 or 15% headshots with a Staticor or a polearm without trying, and when I want to coast with Harrow I'll bring out Pyrana Prime.  Maybe that's ok, but I feel like "accidental" headshots might need to be made less easy in some way if the intentional ones are going to get the relevance they should. 

 

[(PSN)wildcats1369my]

it would be nice if snipers have passive effects when aiming, like becoming invisible, gaining shield faster or health. Unlimited punch through will be good or snipers that ignores armor or shield. 

 

[Test-995]

19 hours ago, kingvaldemir said:

^This is nice. Bows can have it too!

No! Bows should have MUCH MORE STRONGER version of that mod!!!

[tzaeru]

4 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

Snipers -might- need something like that on top of their combo system, scope mechanics, and gas builds, but wouldn't you say other single target weapon classes need the help even more?

Point. I suppose that Komorex is OK, but that's indeed an example of a "sniper" having AoE - it does a viral explosion when shot with in the zoom mode.

Even if you get some great Riven and manage to get like, Sybaris Prime or Latron Prime deal somewhat decent damage, they still fall far behind the beam weapons. Even against single target enemies, the damage done by Amprex and Ignis and so is good enough, while your Sybaris or Latron or so wont have any AoE..

Personally I love those two weapons and weapons like them, but rarely run them because they just don't cut it in Arbitrations or Elite Onslaughts or Trials and so on.

Edited August 8, 2019 by tzaeru

[kgabor]

20 hours ago, kingvaldemir said:

^This is nice. Bows can have it too!

 

4 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

Snipers -might- need something like that on top of their combo system, scope mechanics, and gas builds, but wouldn't you say other single target weapon classes need the help even more? 

Sure, bows, semi-auto/dmr-s and such could make use of it too, but i would rather limit it to just these weapons, otherwise it would be unbalanced.

Extra affinity on headshots is also a good idea, this would give an indirect benefit to the Rakta Cernos and the augmented Supra Vandal (projectile weapon)and other syndicate weapons and mods.

[Steel_Rook]

20 hours ago, (PS4)wildcats1369my said:

one of the main issue is that most players never leave the easy mode. one rotation and they are out heck some leave after one set. enemies lvl50 below are trash they doesnt last a second to most of the weapon. who can blame them there is no point fight higher lvl enemies because the rewards are same. there is no incentive staying for the challenge. Give players a reason to play higher lvl content and the nuke frames will be will be welcomed instead of shunned. support frames will be favored and defense frame can shine... heck you might even thank limbo for banishing you to the rift.  

I honestly really dislike this approach to encounter design. "People don't like high difficulty and prefer playing easy mode, so I must MAKE them play high difficulty, God damn it!" I'm exaggerating, but this is how that comes across. I'm of the opinion that you should never over-reward high difficulty settings, especially if you want them to be a serious challenge. Over-reward the median, under-reward the low- and high-end difficulty settings. This way, you ensure that people who want an easy game can have that at reduced rewards, and people who specifically want a challenge can find it, all of it without pushing the majority of players out of their comfort zone.

Offer a high difficulty setting, and people who want a challenge will play it. You don't have to over-reward it, because you DON'T want to push people who don't enjoy that kind of challenge into it. You can make people play content, but you can't make them enjoy it. What you're proposing would turn out exactly like Nightwave and Arbitrations did, which is to say controversial and critically panned and eventually reduced in difficulty. Despite what these forums would have you believe, "challenge" is a niche draw with a dedicated but also niche audience. It ABSOLUTELY is something to cater to, make no mistake. It is not, however, something to foist on the entire player base.

Again - leave rewards where they are, add an optional high-difficulty mode for people who enjoy high difficulty. If they really enjoy it, they wouldn't need to be bribed with exclusive rewards. I get that this is a "looter shooter," but the game's actual gameplay HAS to carry some weight of its own.

[tzaeru]

27 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

I get that this is a "looter shooter," but the game's actual gameplay HAS to carry some weight of its own.

Personally I don't need extra, at least not massively extra, rewards for harder content, but the content has to be at least as rewarding as easier content.

The root problem is that it's faster and overall more effective to use the easier options. Like, why would you take that Latron Prime when you can take Amprex? Why not jump out of defense on the 4th wave - given that you get the same rewards but it's going to take longer (due to enemies getting stronger and slower to kill) than if you repeat the mission? And so on.. Mind you, I'm not saying that being forced into doing 30 minute survivals or 40 wave defenses was the solution either.

There doesn't necessarily have to be content that only the most skilled players can perform. But there should be content where succeeding quickly, safely and efficiently requires quick reflexes, solid target prioritization and good aim.

Of course cracking some Lith relics should never be particularly hard for basically any player, but Arbitrations and Sorties perhaps should start to need a bit more skill to perform well in.

Edited August 8, 2019 by tzaeru

[(PSN)wildcats1369my]

23 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

I honestly really dislike this approach to encounter design. "People don't like high difficulty and prefer playing easy mode, so I must MAKE them play high difficulty, God damn it!" I'm exaggerating, but this is how that comes across. I'm of the opinion that you should never over-reward high difficulty settings, especially if you want them to be a serious challenge. Over-reward the median, under-reward the low- and high-end difficulty settings. This way, you ensure that people who want an easy game can have that at reduced rewards, and people who specifically want a challenge can find it, all of it without pushing the majority of players out of their comfort zone.

Offer a high difficulty setting, and people who want a challenge will play it. You don't have to over-reward it, because you DON'T want to push people who don't enjoy that kind of challenge into it. You can make people play content, but you can't make them enjoy it. What you're proposing would turn out exactly like Nightwave and Arbitrations did, which is to say controversial and critically panned and eventually reduced in difficulty. Despite what these forums would have you believe, "challenge" is a niche draw with a dedicated but also niche audience. It ABSOLUTELY is something to cater to, make no mistake. It is not, however, something to foist on the entire player base.

Again - leave rewards where they are, add an optional high-difficulty mode for people who enjoy high difficulty. If they really enjoy it, they wouldn't need to be bribed with exclusive rewards. I get that this is a "looter shooter," but the game's actual gameplay HAS to carry some weight of its own.

fair enough. though in my belief reward is a good motivator and people tend to go the easier route if given a choice. the dog days event is a good example of this. i agree not to over reward harder difficulty but once the reward is exhausted people will go back to saying there is no content or there is no reason doing the said content. 

hard content is there. there is a challenge in this game. there is just no reason to do it. 

i disagree with under rewarding easy content it has the same effect. 

pount is there should be an even scale of difficulty and reward. 

there should be a constant goal to reach. an unbeatable enemy to overcome... currently if a new boss drops he also drops in a few minutes, there is no power level to achieve or even just a specific grind to do. 

on other mmo when we beat a boss it is because we grind to become stronger and be at least on par with the new content. we dont have that here. 

[Steel_Rook]

9 hours ago, tzaeru said:

The root problem is that it's faster and overall more effective to use the easier options. Like, why would you take that Latron Prime when you can take Amprex? Why not jump out of defense on the 4th wave - given that you get the same rewards but it's going to take longer (due to enemies getting stronger and slower to kill) than if you repeat the mission? And so on.. Mind you, I'm not saying that being forced into doing 30 minute survivals or 40 wave defenses was the solution either.

Well, supposedly because you're looking for challenge. Not using a weapon you like because better alternatives exist or not sticking around because the very harder enemies you're after showed up seems counter-intuitive to me. Yes, I get that fighting harder enemies is less efficient, but is it not more fun? Is that not the point? It's not like sticking around an extra 20 minutes of Defence or using a perfectly serviceable weapon you enjoy is THAT much less efficient. In fact, if I ever catch myself thinking "I'd like to play with this weapon / run this mission but it'll slow down the grind," that's strong indication I'm burning out on the game and need to take immediate measures. Because when I like Warframe, I can jump into any level 30 Spy or Defection mission and have a good time. I can close my eyes, grab just about any weapon out of my inventory (I only keep the ones I like) and have fun.

If just playing the game isn't cutting it, then rewards aren't going to help. They might keep you playing longer, sure, but they'll keep you grinding a game you're burned out on and blaming every aspect of it for why it's "not like it used to" and how it's "just not the same," etc. While designing systems to keep players playing anyway can be financially profitable, I tend to believe it's not worth bribing people into running content they otherwise wouldn't. With the advent of Nightwave, I've been running a lot of missions I wouldn't normally for the sake of rewards, and that more than anything else is responsible for my drastically reduced playtime. Rewards are no substitute for actually enjoying the game. I've held this belief for 15 years now, and I've yet to see compelling reason to change it.

 

8 hours ago, (PS4)wildcats1369my said:

fair enough. though in my belief reward is a good motivator and people tend to go the easier route if given a choice. the dog days event is a good example of this. i agree not to over reward harder difficulty but once the reward is exhausted people will go back to saying there is no content or there is no reason doing the said content. 

If people take the easiest, most optimal path they're presented with, can we really argue that they actually want challenge? Because - and I apologise for being cynical - a lot of calls for "more difficulty" read to me like calls for "more rewards, difficulty is just an excuse." I'm not accusing you of doing it deliberately, obviously, but I would caution against accepting that as an incontrovertible fact. If a game makes players feel compelled to take the easy route, then that speaks to fundamental issues with the game's design ultimately making the progression not fun to engage in. Developers are good at conditioning players to want "more rewards," but that always raises the age-old question of "to what end?" It reminds me of the old MMO raid conversation. Why do you raid? For better gear. OK, to do what with? To raid harder bosses. Where is the end point? What are we trying to get out of progression? Or is it really just a hamster wheel which has us run for miles without actually going anywhere?

And sure, I get that bad design can leave players in a no-win situation. The content they like is flawed, the optimal content isn't to their liking - damned if you do, damned if you don't. I get that. But if people want difficult content to the extent that these forums would have us think, then I have a hard time believing they would snub this content and just keep grinding easier stuff because it's more efficient. I've heard people talk about optimal Affinity grinding spots to level up weapons without playing them, and that brings us right back around to "why bother?" Up to a certain MR, sure, but past that? Why not play with those weapons and actually level them up through use? Just because something is sub-optimal doesn't make it bad. I LOVE the Drakgoon, for instance, even if it's not exactly meta. I love my Gorgon Wrait, I love my Kohm. They all deeply flawed, but they're good enough to run the game's standard difficulty and they're just cool to use.

Yes, rewards matter but rewards shouldn't matter THE MOST. Because when they do, whatever you stick the highest rewards on becomes the status quo and everyone ends up feeling compelled to run it even if they don't like the content or the level of difficulty. I'd personally rather leave non-median difficulties deliberately under-rewarded specifically to ensure that people play them for the gameplay first and foremost.

[(PSN)wildcats1369my]

7 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

If people take the easiest, most optimal path they're presented with, can we really argue that they actually want challenge? Because - and I apologise for being cynical - a lot of calls for "more difficulty" read to me like calls for "more rewards, difficulty is just an excuse." I'm not accusing you of doing it deliberately, obviously, but I would caution against accepting that as an incontrovertible fact

First no offense taken as we simply have differrent point of view. I have no issue with any person contesting me as long as we maintain civility and being informative.

To answer your question is it is both yes and no. People feels good when they are challenged and feels really good they overcome a challenge, this is why FROM Software games suceeds in their lineup. At the same time people wants to get rewarded for the same or less level of work they put in, this is why games like diablo and borderlands work with their lootsposions. 

in both of these games people finds the cheesiest way to farm them. a bit hipocrytical but it works because

1.  player is presented an obstacle they cannot deal the same way they treat trash mobs. 

2. they feel they smarted the obstacle either by getting those levels up or finding a cheap way. 

3. they receive rewards and the rewards are not empty rewards too. they make you stronger and will look forward for the next challenge. 

now lets get back to wf when a new boss drops you already have every tool you need to beat it. the pricess id the same go to the mission, shoot the boss till it dies and it didnt even posed a threat. and after this what did we receive? parts for a new frame, some mods etc. a new frame will make you any stronger. 

to make it short we want an ever increasing difficulty and be rewarded the challenge with rewards that can make challenges easier.

the problem is this is a formula of power creep in wf we want everything to be viable and in result we are stuck with the same power level for years. 

Since we are stuck it is hard to provide harder challenge and power increasing reward that can satisfy us. hence comment like 'this is boring, easy, unrewarding game, content draught' is being seen. 

[tzaeru]

8 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

Well, supposedly because you're looking for challenge. Not using a weapon you like because better alternatives exist or not sticking around because the very harder enemies you're after showed up seems counter-intuitive to me. Yes, I get that fighting harder enemies is less efficient, but is it not more fun? Is that not the point? It's not like sticking around an extra 20 minutes of Defence or using a perfectly serviceable weapon you enjoy is THAT much less efficient. In fact, if I ever catch myself thinking "I'd like to play with this weapon / run this mission but it'll slow down the grind," that's strong indication I'm burning out on the game and need to take immediate measures. Because when I like Warframe, I can jump into any level 30 Spy or Defection mission and have a good time. I can close my eyes, grab just about any weapon out of my inventory (I only keep the ones I like) and have fun.

[..]

Yes, rewards matter but rewards shouldn't matter THE MOST. Because when they do, whatever you stick the highest rewards on becomes the status quo and everyone ends up feeling compelled to run it even if they don't like the content or the level of difficulty. I'd personally rather leave non-median difficulties deliberately under-rewarded specifically to ensure that people play them for the gameplay first and foremost.

It's a bit more complex than that. Reward mechanics are something that keep us playing in the first place. Being rewarded is part of the fun - it's not *all* the fun, but it's a big part of it. So you decide to do something in a way that is more challenging, but at the same time you cut your rewards by say, 25%. In the end, you get a kind of a "meh" feeling out of it. If you at least got the same rewards, it would feel a lot more satisfying. Getting even *slightly* better rewards - and I really mean, just slightly - would be a great feeling already. There was a big challenge, you took on it, overcame it, and now the worthiness of the whole challenge was underlined with a reward.

Then there's the competitive aspect. The point of Warframe, in the end, is to grind for stuff. There's a sense of competition in that, too, in that you'll fall behind if you're always choosing the harder way while your friends, clan mates, and so on, are taking the easy way. Also, there's no reason to be competitive about your actual playing skills, since they don't, ultimately, matter anything - average skill will give you the same reward.

There's also a point to be made with the squad based nature of the game. Unless you've a stack of friends with which to play the content the harder way, you can't really choose for yourself how to play the content. If you want to stick for another 20 waves in a difficult defense, you can't do that if everyone else in the squad are leaving. If you want to use your Sybaris Prime, but everyone else is running Ignis and Amprex and so on, you'll barely get any kills. Plus, you're still protected by your teammates. You don't know if it's your playing skill keeping you alive, or if it's just the fact that your squad is nuking stuff before it's a danger to you. Of course you could just run ahead of the team and seek out mobs on your own to fight, but then you're kinda missing on another very fun part of the game, which is teamplay..

Finally there's the unfortunate fact that us humans are strongly wired to pick the easy route when we've even a slight slip of self-discipline. It doesn't mean it's the best route, it doesn't even mean that it's the more enjoyable route. It's impossible to establish strict cause-correlation in cases like this, but I find it fairly possible that some players have burned out from the game faster than they would have had there been a little bit more challenging content for them. Of course WF is a hugely popular game, a masterpiece, and I'm very happy for the developers for having come such a long way and having prevailed over all the challenges that WF has faced. So don't take me wrong in that I'm not saying the game is worthless without this content. I'm simply saying that I believe that having access to this harder content would for myself, and players like me, increase the time we spend with the game.

Edited August 9, 2019 by tzaeru