An idea about some basic QOL changes to help the fluidity of gameplay

[SwingKitty]

(Please note, if you're not super interested in the what and why of this idea, skip to the next bold heading)

Forward

Over the years there have been a lot of changers to the way abilities work in warframe, a lot of calls for certain abilities to be recast-able, or made to have ,longer base duration and go from duration based to channeled. The basic cause of this is to make abilities integrate into game-play more seamlessly, to enhance the warframe experience in small ways that makes the game feel better to play.

Recently I found myself playing several frames i hadn't touched a in quite a wile (a few years in some cases) and found myself thinking, jeez with only some minor tweaks this frame could feel so much better to play with. When mulling over this I realized that one particular issue that crops up a lot is frames with buffing abilities that have a low duration, causing the player to recast abilities which you would never really stop unless you had no choice in the matter and that there are some abilities that have seen recasting introduced to patch over this and maintain buff strength, etc. 

It should be obvious to any observer that DE tends to review warframes a few frames at a time, and often because of their dev cycle it can take years for any ideas to come to full fruition. This isn't a problem because it means we get fresh content fairly quickly and old frames and game systems get large systematic fixes and changes instated of a dribble of smaller tweaks. But when talking about minor QOL changes that a lot of frames could benefit from it would take years by their standard review cycle to make relatively small changes to a lot of frames. 

So with this preamble almost done I have here an idea, not to review every frame and make minor tweaks, but rather to make a fairly minor tweak across the board to how a certain  type of ability works, to provide a QOL update across the board with hopefully a lower amount of time required for redesign and reworking but to make a decent QOL impact on many frames.

 

With this being concluded, lets get to it.

 

The concept I'm laying out here is actually quite simple. It involves, across the board, allowing all abilities that are buffs who's effects are attached to the caster ( but not charge based) to be switched from a duration based buff, to a channeled energy drain (as in the way Ivara's prowl works, as opposed to the way trinities link works). This would provide smoother game play by basically lowering the amount of ability management that a lot of abilities in the game require, making game play smoother. The easiest way I can think of implementing this would be to make applicable abilities be cast normally on press, but channeled upon holding the ability button. This could be done by simply calculating the energy cost of maintaining the ability as the cost of regular casting the ability divided by the duration of the regular cast ability.

I may be forgetting some, but the abilities that I could see being effected by this change are:

Banshee 

silence

Chroma

elemental ward

Vex armor

Loki?**

invisibility

Mesa 

shooting gallery

shatter shield

Mirage

hall of mirrors

Eclipse

Nezha

fire walker

Nidus

parasitic Link

Octavia

metronome

Saryn

toxic lash

Trinity

Link

Zepher

Turbulence

** Loki is marked with a ? as the idea of this frame being able to permanently maintain their invisibility is potentially against the spirit of the ability, although it meets the criteria as a self targeting ability that cannot effect others, this is basically the one point where I think the area is quite grey, however maybe the energy drain being significant would be enough to make this idea more palatable in this case.

 

To conclude

Please note, the idea here is to provide quality of life changes WITHOUT potentially creating problems that might be considered "game breaking".

Therefore, the idea is that only abilities that affect only the user, or others only when they are within a range of the caster are listed above, by being ultra specific in the brief it makes it easier to predict how the changers would affect the game. There is no blessing, nor any other ability that could, with a channeling option, be permanently cast on another player or enemy because the ability to perma-debuff or perma buff is the kind of thing that would be a major game change and  that's not the idea of this proposal. Also the idea leads to the idea of deployables being able to be channeled, and that's a larger topic, for another day.

Anyways, if anyone gets to the end of this little essay, let me know what you thought, and I hope you have a nice day.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 8, 2019 by SwingKitty

[BDMblue]

My idea is to remove mana and make every frame Cooldown based. Change efficiency to lower CD and make mana orbs and mana ability’s effect cool downs making them faster.

why? Because mana is dumb and we could balance overpowered abilities with longer cool downs. 😄

 

why did I post this here?

 

#%^* you.

Edited August 8, 2019 by BDMblue

[so_many_watermelons]

Trinity's Link I can't agree with being a channeled ability just because that would make Energy Vampire not work while it's on. In fact, for a lot of these, I can't agree because of that energy clause that prevents energy regeneration during channeled abilities, so this all you're suggesting overall cannot be considered a blanket quality of life change. An increase in some of these abilities' base duration would be a better option, like the aforementioned Link.

And no I don't use Zenurik lol, so I believe I'm looking at it in an unbiased way.

Edited August 8, 2019 by so_many_watermelons

[SwingKitty]

14 minutes ago, so_many_watermelons said:

Trinity's Link I can't agree with being a channeled ability just because that would make Energy Vampire not work while it's on. In fact, for a lot of these, I can't agree because of that energy clause that prevents energy regeneration during channeled abilities, so this all you're suggesting overall cannot be considered a blanket quality of life change. An increase in some of these abilities' base duration would be a better option, like the aforementioned Link.

 And no I don't use Zenurik lol, so I believe I'm looking at it in an unbiased way.

Yup, that's the trade off you take by using any channeled ability, remember that the idea of this is to be able to use these abilities as channeled on hold and use them in their standard form on press. 

As for the idea of just making the duration longer, yes i agree, but doing so would require an actual re-balance, the idea of this is to keep current balance as is, and make changes that still create a positive effect on the usability abilities with low durations, etc. 

Basically this is a proposal for a low effort change that creates positive change without rocking the boat.

Edited August 8, 2019 by SwingKitty

[taiiat]

very few Abilities would actually get more convenient or better if they were Energy Drains.

no, not everything should be an Energy Drain Ability.
it would not be convenient for most Abilities(quite the opposite really, it would be some level of inconvenient), it would overall reduce their power, Et Cetera.

paying in ultimately reduced power or more restrictive Modding choices or more complicated management just so that i don't have to press a button as often, isn't really a win in my book and i don't see what book it would be in.
Energy Drain Abilities should only be used when it is highly appropriate, and that is in relatively few situations.

 

to which end, offering both Energy Drain and not on an Ability, would ultimately just mean there is literally no reason to Cast it as Energy Drain due to that just being inherently worse in almost all situations.

Edited August 8, 2019 by taiiat

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

50 minutes ago, SwingKitty said:

(Please note, if you're not super interested in what and why of this idea, skip to the next bold heading)

Forward

Over the years there have been a lot of changers to the way abilities work in warframe, a lot of calls for certain abilities to be recast-able, or made to have ,longer base duration and go from duration based to channeled. The basic cause of this is to make abilities integrate into game-play more seamlessly, to enhance the warframe experience in small ways that makes the game feel better to play.

Recently I found myself playing several frames i hadn't touched a in quite a wile (a few years in some cases) and found myself thinking, jeez with only some minor tweaks this frame could feel so much better to play with. When mulling over this I realized that one particular issue that crops up a lot is frames with buffing abilities that have a low duration, causing the player to recast abilities which you would never really stop unless you had no choice in the matter and that there are some abilities that have seen recasting introduced to patch over this and maintain buff strength, etc. 

It should be obvious to any observer that DE tends to review warframes a few frames at a time, and often because of their dev cycle it can take years for any ideas to come to full fruition. This isn't a problem because it means we get fresh content fairly quickly and old frames and game systems get large systematic fixes and changes instated of a dribble of smaller tweaks. But when talking about minor QOL changes that a lot of frames could benefit from it would take years by their standard review cycle to make relatively small changes to a lot of frames. 

So with this preamble almost done I have here an idea, not to review every frame and make minor tweaks, but rather to make a fairly minor tweak across the board to how a certain  type of ability works, to provide a QOL update across the board with hopefully a lower amount of time required for redesign and reworking but to make a decent QOL impact on many frames.

 

With this being concluded, lets get to it.

 

The concept I'm laying out here is actually quite simple. It involves, across the board, allowing all abilities that are buffs who's effects are attached to the caster ( but not charge based) to be switched from a duration based buff, to a channeled energy drain (as in the way Ivara's prowl works, as opposed to the way trinities link works). This would provide smoother game play by basically lowering the amount of ability management that a lot of abilities in the game require, making game play smoother. The easiest way I can think of implementing this would be to make applicable abilities be cast normally on press, but channeled upon holding the ability button. This could be done by simply calculating the energy cost of maintaining the ability as the cost of regular casting the ability divided by the duration of the regular cast ability.

I may be forgetting some, but the abilities that I could see being effected by this change are:

Banshee 

silence

Chroma

elemental ward

Vex armor

Loki?**

invisibility

Mesa 

shooting gallery

shatter shield

Mirage

hall of mirrors

Eclipse

Nezha

fire walker

Nidus

parasitic Link

Octavia

metronome

Saryn

toxic lash

Trinity

Link

Zepher

Turbulence

** Loki is marked with a ? as the idea of this frame being able to permanently maintain their invisibility is potentially against the spirit of the ability, although it meets the criteria as a self targeting ability that cannot effect others, this is basically the one point where I think the area is quite grey, however maybe the energy drain being significant would be enough to make this idea more palatable in this case.

 

To conclude

Please note, the idea here is to provide quality of life changes WITHOUT potentially creating problems that might be considered "game breaking".

Therefore, the idea is that only abilities that affect only the user, or others only when they are within a range of the caster are listed above, by being ultra specific in the brief it makes it easier to predict how the changers would affect the game. There is no blessing, nor any other ability that could, with a channeling option, be permanently cast on another player or enemy because the ability to perma-debuff or perma buff is the kind of thing that would be a major game change and  that's not the idea of this proposal. Also the idea leads to the idea of deployables being able to be channeled, and that's a larger topic, for another day.

Anyways, if anyone gets to the end of this little essay, let me know what you thought, and I hope you have a nice day.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Too long, didnt read, feedback is over there.

32 minutes ago, BDMblue said:

My idea is to remove mana and make every frame Cooldown based. Change efficiency to lower CD and make mana orbs and mana ability’s effect cool downs making them faster.

why? Because mana is dumb and we could balance overpowered abilities with longer cool downs. 😄

 

why did I post this here?

 

#%^* you.

For the love of god please no. Like seriously.

[SwingKitty]

Just now, taiiat said:

very few Abilities would actually get more convenient or better if they were Energy Drains.

no, not everything should be an Energy Drain Ability.
it would not be convenient for most Abilities(quite the opposite really, it would be some level of inconvenient), it would overall reduce their power, Et Cetera.

paying in ultimately reduced power or more restrictive Modding choices or more complicated management just so that i don't have to press a button as often, isn't really a win in my book and i don't see what book it would be in.
Energy Drain Abilities should only be used when it is highly appropriate, and that is in relatively few situations.

 

to which end, offering both Energy Drain and not on an Ability, would ultimately just mean there is literally no reason to Cast it as Energy Drain due to that just being inherently worse in almost all situations.

I understand what your saying but i think it includes a few mistakes, firstly, the there is no mention of reducing the power of abilities to compensate for added functionality, that would be pointless and frankly unnecessary. This entire concept is about avoiding re-balancing by creating a side-grade change.

Secondly modding for channeled abilities works effectively exactly the same as modding for duration based abilities, there is no change in modding, duration effects energy drain rates already, your mods would literally not change at all and you would still be paying the same amount of energy either channeling or using an ability normally. 

Thirdly I disagree that this is pointless, it is....situational i guess you would say, if your in a situation where you are relying on an ev trin,k or energy siphon then yeh you wouldn't want to use a channel, but if ur relying on energize, running a high efficiency build, or running an average pub game then yeh you might find it more reasonable to use something like this,

In any case the idea here is to add some actual minor game play options to those who are interested, anyways thanks for the feedback.

 

[AndouRaiton]

Honestly you had the solution to this problem in the intro: MAKE THEM RECASTABLE and leave them as duration based, simple. Helps fluidity as now you can cast them again without having to wait for the duration to expire and players won't have to pay as much attention to the duration, cause if they feel it is going to run out soon they can just cast the ability to refresh it.

As for Loki, no his invisibility should not be recast-able as that would be too powerful, but Ash's should be as it is super low duration.

Also, IMO, some channeling abilities should be redesigned to ONLY consume energy when they do their effect; eg Effigy when it attacks not just when it sits around.

[SwingKitty]

Just now, (XB1)ECCHO SIERRA said:

Too long, didnt read, feedback is over there.

For the love of god please no. Like seriously.

If your not interested, well I aint your mum, and i aint gonna summarize for you, bye.

[so_many_watermelons]

24 minutes ago, SwingKitty said:

Basically this is a proposal for a low effort change that creates positive change without rocking the boat.

Except I've already explained why it would definitely rock the boat. This wouldn't "keep the balance as is", this would make several of your mentioned abilities more inconvenient to use. The biggest possible benefit to such a blanket change, besides the lack of repeated casting, would be that low duration builds could make more use out of some of these abilities than they currently can, at the expense of a high drain of course. But besides that, no, it would definitely rock the boat, and this is probably exactly why such a blanket change hasn't been made. 

[SwingKitty]

Just now, AndouRaiton said:

Honestly you had the solution to this problem in the intro: MAKE THEM RECASTABLE and leave them as duration based, simple. Helps fluidity as now you can cast them again without having to wait for the duration to expire and players won't have to pay as much attention to the duration, cause if they feel it is going to run out soon they can just cast the ability to refresh it.

 As for Loki, no his invisibility should not be recast-able as that would be too powerful, but Ash's should be as it is super low duration.

Also, IMO, some channeling abilities should be redesigned to ONLY consume energy when they do their effect; eg Effigy when it attacks not just when it sits around.

Nice ideas, I mean you loose a bit of energy with recasting but u aint restricted by the channeling preventing energy gains, sill more fiddly but a nice work around anyway., Ash was actually on this list until i remembered his augment that allow you to make allies invisible, creates same kind of problem as infinate duration blessing would. Also, channeling abilities not using energy while not effecting anything is kind of in the game for some abilities already (*eg ivaras artemis bow and equos 3rd, I hadn't considered this because this would probs be really complicated to make all channeling abilities already in the game work as charged based abilities like those do.

Personally i think effigy should have either an energy drain on it OR a health bar but no duration limit (like frost's snow globe), but not both.

[Lokidus_Prime]

The problem with making the duration on Nidus' parasitic link into a channeled energy drain, is that parasitic link doesn't even use energy in the first place - it uses mutation stacks.  And no, having parasitic link have stack drain instead of energy drain would not be a suitable replacement imo - the duration on parasitic link is more than generous, as you can easily get it to last over a minute with only the use of a single duration mod.

[SwingKitty]

1 minute ago, so_many_watermelons said:

Except I've already explained why it would definitely rock the boat. This wouldn't "keep the balance as is", this would make several of your mentioned abilities more inconvenient to use. The biggest possible benefit to such a blanket change, besides the lack of repeated casting, would be that low duration builds could make more use out of some of these abilities than they currently can, at the expense of a high drain of course. But besides that, no, it would definitely rock the boat, and this is probably exactly why such a blanket change hasn't been made. 

Okay, i get what your saying, but tbh i think this is something you would have to test to know exactly how much of an impact it would have. This is the way i think about this problem, you have a full ev build trin, then cant normally use link for any more than a few seconds, if you used a channeled link you could keep it up, but because of the lowered duration of the build the energy cost would be immense, and because u cant gain energy easily when channeling you couldn't just use ev or pads to keep your energy up. So at the end of the day all you're saving is the ability casting time with this system. I'm still of the opinion that this wouldn't make much of a change but if u think im being bull headed on this one let me know.

[taiiat]

22 minutes ago, SwingKitty said:

the there is no mention of reducing the power of abilities to compensate for added functionality

Energy Drain Abilities are inherently nerfed (in most cases) by having to deal with the Energy Efficiency formula that is for Energy Drain Abilities rather than all other Abilities.

22 minutes ago, SwingKitty said:

you would still be paying the same amount of energy either channeling or using an ability normally. 

that is not true. normal Abilities get Multiplicative effects out of both Efficiency and Duration, however Energy Drain Abilities get a single Multiplicative effect out of both of these things combined.
if you wanted to spent the least Energy over the course of a Mission as possible (the scenario you're talking about on this point), a normal Ability can quadruple from Efficiency, and then double or triple again on top of that. an Energy Drain Ability can only at max quadruple from Efficiency.

in order for an Energy Drain Ability to outperform a normal Ability, the Energy Drain has to be at the level of "yeah this is basically just free, man". which ofcourse, extremely few Energy Drain Abilities are given this capability, for obvious reasons.

it is simply not worth it generally to take on the burdens of being an Energy Drain, without very good reasons. and pressing a button less often isn't much of a reason.

 

 

Abilities being made as Energy Drain style rather than normal, is generally used as a limiting factor in Warframe, not a beneficial one. the exceptions are very few to say the least. which is then why it's good that the number of Energy Drain Abilities is relatively low.

3 minutes ago, SwingKitty said:

This is the way i think about this problem, you have a full ev build trin, then cant normally use link for any more than a few seconds, if you used a channeled link you could keep it up, but because of the lowered duration of the build the energy cost would be immense, and because u cant gain energy easily when channeling you couldn't just use ev or pads to keep your energy up.

the main problem i see with that being a major thought case for you, is that there is literally no reason to use very low Duration on Trinity. the only time very low Duration is useful on Trinity is in an organized Squad where someone would be sharing a Damage Buff of some sort so as to make you able to quickly oneshot that Boss or w/e. outside of that negative Duration is literally useless on Trinity, and still would be the case even if you made every Ability other than Energy Vampire an Energy Drain. so you would not have provided any benefit then.

Edited August 8, 2019 by taiiat

[SwingKitty]

30 minutes ago, Sin1989 said:

The problem with making the duration on Nidus' parasitic link into a channeled energy drain, is that parasitic link doesn't even use energy in the first place - it uses mutation stacks.  And no, having parasitic link have stack drain instead of energy drain would not be a suitable replacement imo - the duration on parasitic link is more than generous, as you can easily get it to last over a minute with only the use of a single duration mod.

Yeh  parasitic Link was one of the fringe abilities i was close to throwing off the list, I know that the duration is super long by design so its rly not a big deal, and the idea of this is not to change the energy/stacks spent over time, so in-effect you would probs be using like 1 stack per 2 mins, just an example i thought applied to the concept but yeh i get that is would be basically pointless for parasitic link. XD

Edited August 8, 2019 by SwingKitty

[so_many_watermelons]

11 minutes ago, SwingKitty said:

Okay, i get what your saying, but tbh i think this is something you would have to test to know exactly how much of an impact it would have. This is the way i think about this problem, you have a full ev build trin, then cant normally use link for any more than a few seconds, if you used a channeled link you could keep it up, but because of the lowered duration of the build the energy cost would be immense, and because u cant gain energy easily when channeling you couldn't just use ev or pads to keep your energy up. So at the end of the day all you're saving is the ability casting time with this system. I'm still of the opinion that this wouldn't make much of a change but if u think im being bull headed on this one let me know.

That's exactly my point, you can't make these kinds of suggestions under the idea that it wouldn't be a big deal without imagining how it would actually test out.

The Trinity Link example is an excellent showcase of this. The current trade off of having a pathetically short duration, or having an immense energy drain that you wouldn't be able to actively counteract. Link is one of those abilities that definitely should get a small base duration buff, imo, so with that in mind, I'd prefer as it is now. 

This is all before even thinking about additional variables. For example, off the top of my head, Zaw users who use Exodia Brave to regenerate energy on channeled kills. On high efficiency 1 energy-per-hit set ups ( preferable from rivens ), it's an incredibly useful tool to actively boost your DPS while also feeding yourself energy the fuel Warframe abilities or up your Quick Thinking survivability. I imagine a set up like that with a Silence Banshee would be fantastic, but would no longer work with your proposed change.

Edited August 8, 2019 by so_many_watermelons

[so_many_watermelons]

5 minutes ago, taiiat said:

 is that there is literally no reason to use very low Duration on Trinity. 

EV builds that quickly spew out energy without needing you to kill the target ( good for EVing tanky enemies without going "oh S#&$ now I have to wait 14 seconds because I didn't bring anything to instantly nuke this Nox, or Vomvalysts since you don't gain the remaining energy if you hit them down to their spectral form). 

[SwingKitty]

1 minute ago, taiiat said:

Energy Drain Abilities are inherently nerfed (in most cases) by having to deal with the Energy Efficiency formula that is for Energy Drain Abilities rather than all other Abilities.

that is not true. normal Abilities get Multiplicative effects out of both Efficiency and Duration, however Energy Drain Abilities get a single Multiplicative effect out of both of these things combined.
 if you wanted to spent the least Energy over the course of a Mission as possible (the scenario you're talking about on this point), a normal Ability can quadruple from Efficiency, and then double or triple again on top of that. an Energy Drain Ability can only at max quadruple from Efficiency.

 in order for an Energy Drain Ability to outperform a normal Ability, the Energy Drain has to be at the level of "yeah this is basically just free, man". which ofcourse, extremely few Energy Drain Abilities are given this capability, for obvious reasons.

it is simply not worth it generally to take on the burdens of being an Energy Drain, without very good reasons. and pressing a button less often isn't much of a reason.

  

 

Abilities being made as Energy Drain style rather than normal, is generally used as a limiting factor in Warframe, not a beneficial one. the exceptions are very few to say the least. which is then why it's good that the number of Energy Drain Abilities is relatively low.

Interesting, I wasn't aware that that was the case, i would still argue that there would be certain abilities that would be made more use-able but that's a dam good point, i guess your right then, to make this a viable there would have to have some changes made to mitigate that effect. Still might be simpler to add on a small modifier to the drain calculation as opposed to total re-balancing of ability duration's but its certainly something worth considering.

[taiiat]

10 minutes ago, so_many_watermelons said:

EV builds that quickly spew out energy without needing you to kill the target ( good for EVing tanky enemies without going "oh S#&$ now I have to wait 14 seconds because I didn't bring anything to instantly nuke this Nox, or Vomvalysts since you don't gain the remaining energy if you hit them down to their spectral form). 

still no reason. our Stats have gone up plenty over the years, the only time you wouldn't be able to quickly Kill the Target you hit with Energy Vampire is when playing Endurance Missions, of which 99% of the Playerbase does not do.
so there is little to no difficulty to Shooting your own Target. except in the sole situation of Killing a Boss quickly which even then nowadays you could just shoot it. because again, our Stats have gone up in no short amount over the years.

you sacrifice everything the Warframe has, in order to Kill Enemies less efficiently(in normal Missions where you're facing more than a single Enemy in the Mission) with Vampire than you could with the Weapons you already had Equipped anyways.
the last time 12.5% Duration was really relevant on Trinity, was for Law of Retribution.

9 minutes ago, SwingKitty said:

Interesting, I wasn't aware that that was the case, i would still argue that there would be certain abilities that would be made more use-able but that's a dam good point, i guess your right then, to make this a viable there would have to have some changes made to mitigate that effect. Still might be simpler to add on a small modifier to the drain calculation as opposed to total re-balancing of ability duration's but its certainly something worth considering.

it's not that Energy Drain Abilities are bad, it's just that not everything should be one. if it was that simple that everything would be better as an Energy Drain Ability, well, everything already would be.
to be clear, i missed a word when writing that and what i was saying is that Efficiency quadruples the amount of time you can use an Ability, but a normal Ability also can double or triple the amount of time you can use it on top of that from Duration Mods. Energy Cost of Energy Drains can only be reduced by a factor of 4, the formula is capped at that point.
but there isn't really any reason to change that, the relationship of those Stats already works well for the Abilities that are Energy Drains. if an Ability just doesn't seem to fit being one, then it probably isn't a good fit, eh?

Edited August 8, 2019 by taiiat

[SwingKitty]

Just now, taiiat said:

still no reason. our Stats have gone up plenty over the years, the only time you wouldn't be able to quickly Kill the Target you hit with Energy Vampire is when playing Endurance Missions, of which 99% of the Playerbase does not do.
so there is little to no difficulty to Shooting your own Target. except in the sole situation of Killing a Boss quickly which even then nowadays you could just shoot it. because again, our Stats have gone up in no short amount over the years.

you sacrifice everything the Warframe has, in order to Kill Enemies less efficiently with Vampire than you could with the Weapons you already had Equipped anyways.
the last time 12.5% Duration was really relevant on Trinity, was for Law of Retribution.

it's not that Energy Drain Abilities are bad, it's just that not everything should be one. if it was that simple that everything would be better as an Energy Drain Ability, well, everything already would be.
to be clear, i missed a word when writing that and what i was saying is that Efficiency quadruples the amount of time you can use an Ability, but a normal Ability also can double or triple the amount of time you can use it on top of that from Duration Mods. Energy Cost of Energy Drains can only be reduced by a factor of 4, the formula is capped at that point.
 but there isn't really any reason to change that, the relationship of those Stats already works well for the Abilities that are Energy Drains. if an Ability just doesn't seem to fit being one, then it probably isn't a good fit, eh?

Every ability? I listed a max of 14 abilities, there are over 160 abilities in this game, I left out all the direct squad buffing abilities as well as well.

Also, the trin thing was the example, not the point, if you have another example of this change allowing low duration builds to use abilities far more effectively than they could before, and why it would actually make a big difference, feel free to actually post a better example.

 

[so_many_watermelons]

20 minutes ago, taiiat said:

still no reason. our Stats have gone up plenty over the years, the only time you wouldn't be able to quickly Kill the Target you hit with Energy Vampire is when playing Endurance Missions, of which 99% of the Playerbase does not do.
so there is little to no difficulty to Shooting your own Target. except in the sole situation of Killing a Boss quickly which even then nowadays you could just shoot it. because again, our Stats have gone up in no short amount over the years.

You're talking entirely through the eyes of people who are already at the highest end of the game. Obviously there's still a reason someone would want a low duration build on her, just because you don't do it or believe that someone couldn't possible want to have EV finish as soon as possible ( also, high strength low duration EV means very quick True damage on the target ) doesn't mean there aren't any reasons. You can't say something like "99% of players don't do endurance runs" and basically "nobody in normal gameplay is tanky enough to consider your example" when there's plenty of inbetween there, you're just ignoring it.

And no, ignoring that isn't a valid option here when talking about builds, which may sometimes have mathematically superior options, but is still subject to the player's choices in how they want to play.

Edited August 8, 2019 by so_many_watermelons

[so_many_watermelons]

10 minutes ago, SwingKitty said:

Also, the trin thing was the example, not the point, if you have another example of this change allowing low duration builds to use abilities far more effectively than they could before, and why it would actually make a big difference, feel free to actually post a better example.

You're the one making this point, it's your responsibility to bring up examples that actually support your argument, not them.

[SwingKitty]

26 minutes ago, so_many_watermelons said:

You're the one making this point, it's your responsibility to bring up examples that actually support your argument, not them.

Indeed, the idea of this example was to point out that the way the main concept functioned didn't allow for lower duration builds to suddenly use abilities as if they had high duration and that the only real thing that would change is such a situation was the time saved from not having to go through the casting animation. I was supporting my argument, but ya both missed the point of what i was saying and took the entire thing off in a different direction.  To clear thing up and answer the original comments:

 

1. The INTENT of this idea is to have an ability cost the same amount of energy over time as it would if the ability was cast normally, though they may not be calculated the same way currently this could be addressed in the back end of calculations to avoid mods needing to be changed on the user end.

2. This idea is of narrow enough scope that at least as far as i can see, It wouldn't introduce unintended exploits into the game, if u have an example of how this would "rock the boat" give it to me. I'm not saying there isn't one, i just can't think of any off the top of my head.

3.The point of these changes is to give the player a little more variety and choice in a way that is as un-impactful as possible. In other words, it is deliberately as soft as possible so as to avoid ruffled feathers, yes there are other ways you could do this, maybe even better ones, this is just supposed to be a gentle way of mixing the game up a little.

If ya misunderstood the way i was goin with the trin example, well that's on me, my bad, I'll try to be more explicit in future.

[taiiat]

33 minutes ago, so_many_watermelons said:

You're talking entirely through the eyes of people who are already at the highest end of the game. Obviously there's still a reason someone would want a low duration build on her, just because you don't do it or believe that someone couldn't possible want to have EV finish as soon as possible ( also, high strength low duration EV means very quick True damage on the target ) doesn't mean there aren't any reasons. You can't say something like "99% of players don't do endurance runs" and basically "nobody in normal gameplay is tanky enough to consider your example" when there's plenty of inbetween there, you're just ignoring it.

your case example requires the Player to have the Mods to create an extremely high Power Strength and extremely low Duration scenario, but, somehow, not be able to Mod their Weapons for good Damage.
a pretty unlikely situation, unless you know of a large number of Players that sought out and acquired + upgraded a few 10Rank Rare Mods but didn't upgrade the Damage Mods on their Weapons that cost exponentially less to upgrade. 

45 minutes ago, SwingKitty said:

Every ability? I listed a max of 14 abilities

Also, the trin thing was the example, not the point, if you have another example of this change allowing low duration builds to use abilities far more effectively than they could before, and why it would actually make a big difference, feel free to actually post a better example.

yes, many Abilities at once. not actually every Ability, just a lot of them all at once, with the main shared goal only being to press the Cast button less often.

i think that's kind've the point, that Trinity is only maybe a good case example, and that there aren't really any other good case examples for that?
off the top of my head i can only think of....... i had a couple in mind as a maybe but then even those don't really fit the "you would want very low Duration and would be able to benefit from one/some of the Abilities being an Energy Drain to counteract that" for a few of those because of the Abilities that would have benefited being recastable nowadays. the only one that remains as a closest fit i could come up with, is Banshee since really low Duration makes Sonar useless. but at the same time, Sonar being an Energy Drain would also remove pretty much the vast majority of the reasons why the ability is even good in the first place.

[so_many_watermelons]

5 minutes ago, taiiat said:

your case example requires the Player to have the Mods to create an extremely high Power Strength and extremely low Duration scenario, but, somehow, not be able to Mod their Weapons for good Damage.
a pretty unlikely situation, unless you know of a large number of Players that sought out and acquired + upgraded a few 10Rank Rare Mods but didn't upgrade the Damage Mods on their Weapons that cost exponentially less to upgrade. 

Yes and no. The ideal high strength and low duration? Sure, that would be a lot to expect of newer/less decked out players. But the basis for our conversation, a low duration Trinity? Not really, not nearly as far fetched. It's a common suggestion I see people give to new players who may want to increase their power or their platinum wallet to go Vault hunting in the Derelict. Getting at least a Fleeting Expertise, if not a Transient Fortitude isn't that unrealistic from that suggestion.

And again, creating your build is entirely up to you, people can do a low duration EV set up if they please and they wouldn't be doing something wrong or without reason like you seem to believe. I've already explained why someone would do that, and if you can't understand that or at least accept it then that's your issue.