An idea about some basic QOL changes to help the fluidity of gameplay

[SwingKitty]

2 minutes ago, taiiat said:

es, many Abilities at once. not actually every Ability, just a lot of them all at once, with the main shared goal only being to press the Cast button less often.

i think that's kind've the point, that Trinity is only maybe a good case example, and that there aren't really any other good case examples for that?
off the top of my head i can only think of....... i had a couple in mind as a maybe but then even those don't really fit the "you would want very low Duration and would be able to benefit from one/some of the Abilities being an Energy Drain to counteract that" for a few of those because of the Abilities that would have benefited being recastable nowadays. the only one that remains as a closest fit i could come up with, is Banshee since really low Duration makes Sonar useless. but at the same time, Sonar being an Energy Drain would also remove pretty much the vast majority of the reasons why the ability is even good in the first place.

You may notice i only mentioned silence, yeh i know the recast-able silence is a thing people have wanted for ages, and this doesn't allow that in a kind of back handed way. Sonar doesn't really fit the criteria i laid out in the og post.The example of trin was supposed to show that it wouldn't make low duration builds more powerful. You would still need a higher duration and efficiency to run abilities like link for long duration's. The other benefit of this is in situations like doing bounties, you can instead of wasting a lot of energy when hopping between areas you can just turn off your ability and you have effectively "saved" a big chunk of energy.

[SwingKitty]

Just now, so_many_watermelons said:

 Yes and no. The ideal high strength and low duration? Sure, that would be a lot to expect of newer/less decked out players. But the basis for our conversation, a low duration Trinity? Not really, not nearly as far fetched. It's a common suggestion I see people give to new players who may want to increase their power or their platinum wallet to go Vault hunting in the Derelict. Getting at least a Fleeting Expertise, if not a Transient Fortitude isn't that unrealistic from that suggestion.

And again, creating your build is entirely up to you, people can do a low duration EV set up if they please and they wouldn't be doing something wrong or without reason like you seem to believe. I've already explained why someone would do that, and if you can't understand that or at least accept it then that's your issue.

Heck it's not like you never see extreme low duration ev builds anymore, just not as often. But yeh ultimately the idea of this has nothing to do with how people build their frames and aint supposed to impact how they build them in anyway.

[so_many_watermelons]

4 minutes ago, SwingKitty said:

Heck it's not like you never see extreme low duration ev builds anymore, just not as often. But yeh ultimately the idea of this has nothing to do with how people build their frames and aint supposed to impact how they build them in anyway.

Obviously with all the points we've all brought up, your suggestion would be impacting some builds. I don't understand why you insist that it wouldn't or ignore how it would, I would've thought my initial mention of energy regeneration would've quickly finished this portion of the conversation. It absolutely would impact some things, "rocking the boat" as you put it.

There's no need to repeat "it won't" because it will, examples were immediately given to you. I'm glad to see you pointing out when people make points, but you continue to insist on a point that can't be made without making changes to things like how energy drain is calculated but only for some specific cases. If things were done like that, why have such systems in the first place?

No, a lot of these abilities function better as they are, as timer based abilities that need recasts. The initial suggestions of being able to recast before timers are up and some base duration buffs are good enough. Instead of suggesting it as a blanket change, there are probably fewer rather than more abilities that would benefit from becoming channeled, and that would be probably be a more productive thing to discuss rather than the blanket change.

[SwingKitty]

Just now, so_many_watermelons said:

Obviously with all the points we've all brought up, your suggestion would be impacting some builds. I don't understand why you insist that it wouldn't or ignore how it would, I would've thought my initial mention of energy regeneration would've quickly finished this portion of the conversation. It absolutely would impact some things, "rocking the boat" as you put it.

The entire idea of this is that you can just ignore it if u aint interested, yeh you could change your build, or you could just leave it the same way and it would work the same, and if you do want to use the different system, then you have to work around energy restrictions, same as every frame who already has channeled abilities does, this isn't new, and it has never been a design limiter in the past.

 

2 minutes ago, so_many_watermelons said:

 There's no need to repeat "it won't" because it will, examples were immediately given to you. I'm glad to see you pointing out when people make points, but you continue to insist on a point that can't be made without making changes to things like how energy drain is calculated but only for some specific cases. If things were done like that, why have such systems in the first place?

 

Im not just refusing to see reason here, and no, i got 1 example of a complication i hadn't considered, and then explained that yeh that would have to be worked around, the point wasn't to remove the way things are calculated, simply to make  small additions here and there to pull them more into line.The energy regen thing is not a complication, its a pre existing game mechanic that already exists, and this would not force you to even deal with.

 

6 minutes ago, so_many_watermelons said:

No, a lot of these abilities function better as they are, as timer based abilities that need recasts. The initial suggestions of being able to recast before timers are up and some base duration buffs are good enough. Instead of suggesting it as a blanket change, there are probably fewer rather than more abilities that would benefit from becoming channeled, and that would be probably be a more productive thing to discuss rather than the blanket change.

They would still function the same way, and im not saying that those are bad ideas, recasting and duration buffs are good ideas, this is just about thinking of an alternate way to partially implement something similar those ideas, which have been considered for years, without changing the status quo. Look obviously the ideal situation would be what your suggesting here, i tried to explain why i formed this idea this way back in the preamble of my og post, this is kinda meant to be...a compromise, designed to be fairly simple and take less time and resources to implement than a good widespread rework would. more of a hotfix than an update.

Anyway, thanks for all the feedback. Much appreciated.

[so_many_watermelons]

8 hours ago, SwingKitty said:

The entire idea of this is that you can just ignore it if u aint interested, yeh you could change your build, or you could just leave it the same way and it would work the same, and if you do want to use the different system, then you have to work around energy restrictions, same as every frame who already has channeled abilities does, this isn't new, and it has never been a design limiter in the past.

 

Im not just refusing to see reason here, and no, i got 1 example of a complication i hadn't considered, and then explained that yeh that would have to be worked around, the point wasn't to remove the way things are calculated, simply to make  small additions here and there to pull them more into line.The energy regen thing is not a complication, its a pre existing game mechanic that already exists, and this would not force you to even deal with.

 

They would still function the same way, and im not saying that those are bad ideas, recasting and duration buffs are good ideas, this is just about thinking of an alternate way to partially implement something similar those ideas, which have been considered for years, without changing the status quo. Look obviously the ideal situation would be what your suggesting here, i tried to explain why i formed this idea this way back in the preamble of my og post, this is kinda meant to be...a compromise, designed to be fairly simple and take less time and resources to implement than a good widespread rework would. more of a hotfix than an update.

Anyway, thanks for all the feedback. Much appreciated.

I think I must've missed when you suggested this being an option, and not a blanket change, if I'm understanding your first paragraph right here. If that's been the basis for your entire thread here, an option to turn some timer based abilities into channeled, I suppose that makes more sense, though I don't understand how that toggle would be implemented. If it isn't what you're talking about, then yes, you are absolutely still refusing to see reason because all you keep saying is "it wouldn't be a complication", "it would be simple" when it doesn't sound simple at all.

[FireSegment]

17 hours ago, SwingKitty said:

This would provide smoother game play by basically lowering the amount of ability management that a lot of abilities in the game require, making game play smoother.

i would need you to explain more clearly which aspect of this is considered better QoL, what is the benefit that worth getting all those ability you listed the nerf that prevent player from having any form of energy regeneration ?? 

If your goal is simply improve ability management, then add "Oh, your ability is ending in 5, 4, 3, 2,1" sound effect to each said ability before they expire, like how your gun sound when the magazine near empty but for ability would do the trick marvelously 

edit: i missed the hold to cast part so not a full nerf, but still, i don't think it worth the trade off for your version of any ability up there

Edited August 8, 2019 by FireSegment

[Atsia]

Yeah, no, enery drain is almost always used as a nerf to performance. Hell, one of your suggestions, Firewalker, was changed from an Energy Drain to a high duration, with the real solution to to this thread, making certain duration abilities recastable and/ or give them a higher base to work with.

Edited August 8, 2019 by Atsia

[SwingKitty]

9 hours ago, so_many_watermelons said:

I think I must've missed when you suggested this being an option, and not a blanket change, if I'm understanding your first paragraph right here. If that's been the basis for your entire thread here, an option to turn some timer based abilities into channeled, I suppose that makes more sense, though I don't understand how that toggle would be implemented. If it isn't what you're talking about, then yes, you are absolutely still refusing to see reason because all you keep saying is "it wouldn't be a complication", "it would be simple" when it doesn't sound simple at all.

Yeh this idea was always intended to an optional thing into the game without removing or replacing existing systems, when i started thinking about this i had a few different ideas on how to work this but this was the one i though had the fewest problems with it. My idea on how to implement this was that a standard cast would happen on pressing the ability key, and the channel would be started on holding the ability key (think of how ivara switches between arrows types, they key prompts i mean not that you would have a sub menu when there are only 2 options). This means that on every cast of one of these abilities in game you would have the choice of how you want the ability to operate. Other ways you could do this would include choosing the abilities casting "mode" in the arsenal but that would be a little more restrictive of on the fly game play.

So, i don't think this would be complicated because of the way different pre existing channeled abilities work, for example, valkyr's hysteria has a an energy drain that increases over time, this isn't an effect of mods but a multiplier added in after the rest of the calculations that are used to determine the properties of the ability when you cast it. My suggestion earlier was that because the way energy drain in channeled abilities is calculated with mods is different to standard buff abilities this could be solved by adding a line of code that would even the energy cost out to be effectively equal to the cost of just running it normally. Obviously i don't actually have access to the dev side of things or the actual code so i don't know how feasible this actually is but from what i can infer from how things in game work i do think this would be a suitable work around.

 

[SwingKitty]

4 hours ago, FireSegment said:

i would need you to explain more clearly which aspect of this is considered better QoL, what is the benefit that worth getting all those ability you listed the nerf that prevent player from having any form of energy regeneration ?? 

 If your goal is simply improve ability management, then add "Oh, your ability is ending in 5, 4, 3, 2,1" sound effect to each said ability before they expire, like how your gun sound when the magazine near empty but for ability would do the trick marvelously 

edit: i missed the hold to cast part so not a full nerf, but still, i don't think it worth the trade off for your version of any ability up there

So obviously your right that this type of thing would be inappropriate for many situations. My main thoughts were that this would potentially be helpful in highly mobile situations like playing in one of the open world maps where you might these days cast a buff, and then b4 it's half way used you need to arch-wing to somewhere else. The other case where i think this would be useful if if you were running with arcane energize as your main form of energy regen( although yes i do recognize that this is a niche mostly inhabited by older or "endgame" players due to the rarity and time consuming nature of getting such a thing operational).

Perhaps therefor such game-play options that are potentially so niche and situational would be better locked behind..maybe having an exilus adapter on the frame in question (since those are at least theoretically supposed to add functionality not power), idk, just a thought. The more i think on this subject the more i'm coming to think that a few base duration buffs and recasting on certain abilities would be a vastly superior addition. In any case thanks for the feedback.

[SwingKitty]

4 hours ago, Atsia said:

Yeah, no, enery drain is almost always used as a nerf to performance. Hell, one of your suggestions, Firewalker, was changed from an Energy Drain to a high duration, with the real solution to to this thread, making certain duration abilities recastable and/ or give them a higher base to work with.

 

As not much of a nez player ( i find the sliding a bit annoying) I was surprised only a few days ago when i took him out and saw that his 1 had a timer. At the time i assumed i had misremembered but reading your comment just then i remembered specifically not using his 1 specifically because of the cost and the energy gain restriction (although this had a lot to do with the res of his kit not being conductive to a higher duration and therefor efficiency build).

I guess the reason i came up with this idea came from an intersection of alot of these abilities having quite annoyingly low base durations and my personal fondness for augments such as eternal was and lasting covenant  and abilities such as splinter storm which allow abilities to be sustained for longer periods, combined with the feeling that having to sacrifice slots for augments that adds such basic functionality as recasting or extending duration are kinda crappy. Therefor this seemed like a pretty basic way to add functionality without making things to complicated. 

It would seem therefor that this idea of mine falls a little short of the mark for its intended game-play effect. Thanks for the feedback, much appreciated.

Post note: While i stand by everything i wrote above and still agree that most likely this kind of idea would not be worth implementing, I think that ideas like this one still fall into the relm of being worth both considering and testing out to see how much of an impact they would make, much like how DE did back in the day mess around with a shield gating systems but found it had 2 little effect on game-play to consider implementing it properly.

Edited August 9, 2019 by SwingKitty

[Cubewano]

Just make every frame instantly kill enemies within a 50 meter radius of them and call it a day. Better yet just remove enemies entirely and just have loot thrown all over every map and we can just collect stuff as we sprint through the level to extraction. That's the fluidity we're heading to. 

Edited August 9, 2019 by Cubewano

[SwingKitty]

Just now, Cubewano said:

Just make every frame instantly kill enemies with a 50 meter radius of them and call it a day. Better yet just remove enemies entirely and just have loot thrown all over every map and we can just collect stuff and we sprint through the level to extraction. That's the fluidity we're heading to. 

A very well thought out, measured and reasonable response which added a lot to the conversation. 👍

Cheers bud, next time just throw down a tl;dr like all the other people who don't have any or thoughts or ideas about a thread but feel the need to say something anyway.

[Cubewano]

2 minutes ago, SwingKitty said:

A very well thought out, measured and reasonable response which added a lot to the conversation. 👍

Cheers bud, next time just throw down a tl;dr like all the other people who don't have any or thoughts or ideas about a thread but feel the need to say something anyway.

oh there was a great deal of thought in that response, trust me. 

[SwingKitty]

6 minutes ago, Cubewano said:

oh there was a great deal of thought in that response, trust me. 

I'm sure their was, but it was unrelated to the actual topic at hand, you obviously only read the heading b4 posting it, and if you did actually read it, you managed to expressed none of those "thoughts" in your comment. So either you failed to communicate anything, or had nothing relevant to say, either way, you have made it clear that u aint worth listening to.