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Arcira

Ember weapons and augments

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Posted (edited)

After the changes to Embers Fireball Frenzy I did some testing. My impression for the first round is they are not worth using. I have tested my build against typical corpus,grineer and infested (maximum simulacrum level) units with an Ignis Wraith and I could not get signifiacte improvements from the buffs. Actually the ttk (time to kill) against one enemy (armored) was actually quite a bit lower. I think thats due to the shift in status probability.

Anyway. My Question is does have anyone a good build in order to make use of those augment buffs (for Fireball and Accelerant), or an idea against what type of enemy they could be usefull?

Here are the details to my setup:

Spoiler

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Duration and Strength based (not opimized) for Augment build

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Warframe: Ember

Aura: Growing Power (Aura) Eximus: -

Augments: Fireball Frenzy, Flash Accelerant

Other: Primed Continuity, Umbral Vitality + Intensity, Augure Secrets, Augur Message, (8th mod slot empty due to polarity layout)

Arcanes: Energize, Guardian

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Weapon: Ignis Wraith

Mods: Serration (Amalgam), Splittchamber, Heavy Caliber, Vital Sense, Point Blank, Storm Bringer, Infected Clip, Vile Acceleration

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

and the results:

Spoiler

Enemy 1: Corrupted Heavy Gunner lv 165

average TTK with Augment buff: ~ 3.3 sec

average TTK without Augment buff: ~ 2.6 sec

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Enemy 2: Ancient Healer lv 165

average TTK with Augment buff: ~ 1 sec

average TTK without Augment buff: ~ 1 sec

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Enemy 3: Fusion MOA lv 165

average TTK with Augment buff: ~ 1 sec

average TTK without Augment buff: ~ 1 sec

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

@SenorClipClop

Spoiler

Ignis Wraith is a pretty low-damage weapon, so it might be hard to see much of a difference with damage-buffing features applied to it. Maybe try it with a higher damage-per-hit weapon? I'll do some experimenting and come back to this thread. 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Okay, I'm back. Some initial testing with my go-to melee build for Ember resulted in some interesting stuff. For this experiment I went against a Level 150 Corr.Bombard. My Ember has 130% Strength, uses both Flash Accelerant and Fireball Frenzy, and the Basolks are a standard Heat/Corrosive build with 100% Status. Rather than time-to-kill, I used hits-to-kill, since the combo counter makes the latter a lot easier to track. This isn't perfect since the combo multiplier makes things easier to kill as hits increase, so keep in mind that the numbers aren't really expressing a linear effectiveness here.

Ember+Basolks, no abilities: 51 htk

Using only Fireball Frenzy: 53 htk. Similar to OP's results, popping on the extra Heat damage made results worse in this case. I believe OP is right here, in that the added Heat shifts the Status likelihood away from Corrosive and is a bad idea against high-Armored targets.

Using only Flash Accelerant: 42 htk. The extra Heat damage (50%) and multiplying all the Heat damage worked a bit better.

Using both Fireball Frenzy and Flash Accelerant: 37 htk. Using both made a significant difference. More study needed.

 

The effects are more pronounced on non-Armored targets, of course. On an Ancienct Healer of the same level, the numbers were respectively (same order): 36, 27, 17, 12. With a Corpus Tech, they were: 90, 55, 29, 21. These numbers are just from a single test and things like Crit and random proc chance can make these numbers inconsisent, but there does seem to be a trend in benefit. Whether that benefit is worth a Mod slot for raw damage purposes is up to you.

Things I've found out:

  • The extra damage on the newly-changed Augments seems to be affected by Power Strength. Pumping Strength into a build might make these mods more useful.
  • Fireball's normal hold-to-cast "Big Fireball" functionality is replaced when you use the Augment.
  • The added damage from the augment won't interact with combined element modded to a weapon, but it will combine with "solo" elements. (For example, adding FF to a weapon modded with Magnetic won't remove Magnetic to combine with other elements, but straight Toxin will mix with FF to create Gas.) This doesn't appear to mix with elements native to the weapon.
  • It's much easier to see a difference by using weapons with a high damage per hit. Bring along a sniper and see what happens.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Second update: this is a fun one.

  • Ember, 200ish% Strength, Flash Accelerant, Fireball Frenzy.
  • Rubico Prime, Crit and Electric damage

Putting on both abilities essentially adds 300% damage to your Rubico, combining with the Electric to turn it all into Radiation damage. Since Rad damage gets a bonus vs. Armor, this turns Ember into a surprisingly effective anti-Armor weapon buffer. the downside here is that the Heat-multiplying effect of Accelerant is lost your weapon's damage (and at high levels her abilities aren't doing much damage themselves), but you still get the stun. You could leave off FA and still have a pretty significant buff.

Essentially, you're sacrificing a Mod slot on Ember to add a damage Mod on your weapon(s), the damage of that "mod" relative to how much Strength Ember has. Past 165% Strength, this "mod" becomes stronger than any other actual Mod you can equip on a Primary.

Can you post your builds for the melee and Rubico tests? I did some Rubico tests as well but a standard corrosive build seems to be more effective still.

 

@schilds

Spoiler

 

 

I´d like to see your weapon and frame build as well I can see your arcanes and somewhat calculate the power strenght mods you are using but it´s hard to see your melee weapon (and the build oc).

Edited by Arcira
Update, answer comments, grammar

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Ignis Wraith is a pretty low-damage weapon, so it might be hard to see much of a difference with damage-buffing features applied to it. Maybe try it with a higher damage-per-hit weapon? I'll do some experimenting and come back to this thread.

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With how difficult it is to get heat only, High/100% status/proc weapons in the game I I don't think the mod will make too much of a difference. 
Perhaps if DE created an actual "Overheat" passive where she's lit on fire and turns all weapon proc's into heat with a higher status chance or something along those lines will the mod become more useful for her.

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11 minutes ago, Raqiya said:

turns all weapon proc's into heat

Nice idea. It must actually also turn all damage type to heat damage, so you can fully enjoy the most useless damage type in the game with this frame.

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Just now, TeaHawk said:

so you can fully enjoy the most useless damage type in the game with this frame

I didn't know Ember dealt Magnetic damage :clem: 

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Just now, SenorClipClop said:

I didn't know Ember dealt Magnetic damage :clem: 

Okay, then the second least useful damage type. (If you think magnetic is worse)

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3 minutes ago, TeaHawk said:

Nice idea. It must actually also turn all damage type to heat damage, so you can fully enjoy the most useless damage type in the game with this frame.

Just throwing ideas out there.

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It's better if it actually adds a small amount of heat dmg.

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I don't really like Ember's Augments. I don't use them with my Ember, though I should point out here that in my opinion Ember makes a good CC frame rather than a damage frame. Basically all of her skills have base cc and I build her for survivability instead of strength because I see strength as having diminishing returns with her. Healing Return naturally follows, and I use corrosive shotguns, which if built well will surpass Ignis Wraith single target. Flash Accelerant actually messes the elemental damage types of allies, so you should use only in a premade group where you have communicated that you will be going for it. Firequake is the only one I see as having potential but only in cases when Condition Overload is concerned. 

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Okay, I'm back. Some initial testing with my go-to melee build for Ember resulted in some interesting stuff. For this experiment I went against a Level 150 Corr.Bombard. My Ember has 130% Strength, uses both Flash Accelerant and Fireball Frenzy, and the Basolks are a standard Heat/Corrosive build with 100% Status. Rather than time-to-kill, I used hits-to-kill, since the combo counter makes the latter a lot easier to track. This isn't perfect since the combo multiplier makes things easier to kill as hits increase, so keep in mind that the numbers aren't really expressing a linear effectiveness here.

Ember+Basolks, no abilities: 51 htk

Using only Fireball Frenzy: 53 htk. Similar to OP's results, popping on the extra Heat damage made results worse in this case. I believe OP is right here, in that the added Heat shifts the Status likelihood away from Corrosive and is a bad idea against high-Armored targets.

Using only Flash Accelerant: 42 htk. The extra Heat damage (50%) and multiplying all the Heat damage worked a bit better.

Using both Fireball Frenzy and Flash Accelerant: 37 htk. Using both made a significant difference. More study needed.

 

The effects are more pronounced on non-Armored targets, of course. On an Ancienct Healer of the same level, the numbers were respectively (same order): 36, 27, 17, 12. With a Corpus Tech, they were: 90, 55, 29, 21. These numbers are just from a single test and things like Crit and random proc chance can make these numbers inconsisent, but there does seem to be a trend in benefit. Whether that benefit is worth a Mod slot for raw damage purposes is up to you.

Things I've found out:

  • The extra damage on the newly-changed Augments seems to be affected by Power Strength. Pumping Strength into a build might make these mods more useful.
  • Fireball's normal hold-to-cast "Big Fireball" functionality is replaced when you use the Augment.
  • The added damage from the augment won't interact with combined element modded to a weapon, but it will combine with "solo" elements. (For example, adding FF to a weapon modded with Magnetic won't remove Magnetic to combine with other elements, but straight Toxin will mix with FF to create Gas.) This doesn't appear to mix with elements native to the weapon.
  • It's much easier to see a difference by using weapons with a high damage per hit. Bring along a sniper and see what happens.

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vor 2 Stunden schrieb Arcira:

After the changes to Embers Fireball Frenzy I did some testing. My impression for the first round is they are not worth using. I have tested my build against typical corpus,grineer and infested (maximum simulacrum level) units with an Ignis Wraith and I could not get signifiacte improvements from the buffs. Actually the ttk (time to kill) against one enemy (armored) was actually quite a bit lower. I think thats due to the shift in status probability.

Anyway. My Question is does have anyone a good build in order to make use of those augment buffs (for Fireball and Accelerant), or an idea against what type of enemy they could be usefull?

Here are the details to my setup:

  Unsichtbaren Inhalt anzeigen

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Duration and Strength based (not opimized) for Augment build

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Warframe: Ember

Aura: Growing Power (Aura) Eximus: -

Augments: Fireball Frenzy, Flash Accelerant

Other: Primed Continuity, Umbral Vitality + Intensity, Augure Secrets, Augur Message, (8th mod slot empty due to polarity layout)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Weapon: Ignis Wraith

Mods: Serration (Amalgam), Splittchamber, Heavy Caliber, Vital Sense, Point Blank, Storm Bringer, Infected Clip, Vile Acceleration

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

and the results:

  Unsichtbaren Inhalt anzeigen

Enemy 1: Corrupted Heavy Gunner lv 165

average TTK with Augment buff: ~ 3.3 sec

average TTK without Augment buff: ~ 2.6 sec

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Enemy 2: Ancient Healer lv 165

average TTK with Augment buff: ~ 1 sec

average TTK without Augment buff: ~ 1 sec

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Enemy 3: Fusion MOA lv 165

average TTK with Augment buff: ~ 1 sec

average TTK without Augment buff: ~ 1 sec

 

That sums up pretty much every augment.. only a few are "ok"

The whole reason why people want a dedicated augment slot, because most are not worth "wasting" a mod slot for..

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Second update: this is a fun one.

  • Ember, 200ish% Strength, Flash Accelerant, Fireball Frenzy.
  • Rubico Prime, Crit and Electric damage

Putting on both abilities essentially adds 300% damage to your Rubico, combining with the Electric to turn it all into Radiation damage. Since Rad damage gets a bonus vs. Armor, this turns Ember into a surprisingly effective anti-Armor weapon buffer. the downside here is that the Heat-multiplying effect of Accelerant is lost your weapon's damage (and at high levels her abilities aren't doing much damage themselves), but you still get the stun. You could leave off FA and still have a pretty significant buff.

Essentially, you're sacrificing a Mod slot on Ember to add a damage Mod on your weapon(s), the damage of that "mod" relative to how much Strength Ember has. Past 165% Strength, this "mod" becomes stronger than any other actual Mod you can equip on a Primary.

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Arcira said:

Can you post your builds for the melee and Rubico tests? I did some Rubico tests as well but a standard corrosive build seems to be more effective still.

Sure thing!

So for the melee, my build for the Twin Basolk is as follows:

Spoiler

Zero Forma, Swirling Tiger Stance (only used basic combo for consistency)

(All maxed) Pressure Point, Condition Overload, Virulent Scourge, Voltaic Strike, Molten Impact, Fury, Drifting Contact, Rift Strike

So, I didn't actually check my build before testing, and honestly I should give it another try. My setup was just dumb. I had Rift Strike on there because I was messing with it after picking it up from Dog Days, and I definitely have enough Mod space to swap Pressure Point for the Primed version. I think that the data comparing ability/augment use is still useful, but the hit totals could be a lot lower if I were running a real build on the weapon. Oops.

 

Anyway, onto the Rubico Prime and Strength Ember test:

Spoiler

Ember Prime: Rifle Amp (kek), Power Drift (r2), Blind Rage (r7) P.Con, Intensify, Vitality, Streamline, Fleeting (r4), Flash Accel., Fireball Frenzy. No assisting Arcanes. 210%Str, 140% Eff.

Rubico Prime: Serration (r8), Split Chamber (r4), Point Strike, Vital Sense, Stormbringer, High Voltage, Argon Scope, Vigilante Armaments. 95% CC before Argon Scope, 6.6x CD.

So again, a few brainless choices here, namely going for Sniper damage with the Rifle aura. Plus I'm a couple Forma short of where this build could max itself out. Will test again, maaaybe with added Forma. Best I could with both Augment buffs* active and the full zoom and headshots was 2-shotting a Level 150 corrupted Bombard, taking it down to around 30% health with the first shot. I might be able to one-shot if I max out the build.

*The Heat multiplier from 2 doesn't contribute since the build only deals Radiation; only the self buff is useful here.

What's your Corrosive build like? It might help guide me.

UPDATE: So I swapped out Rifle Amp for Dead Eye, then retooled my Rubico (same mods, but a max rank Serration and Split Chamber with a Rank 3 Vig. Armaments). Mostly there, though still not a full build on the frame or the gun. I am able to one-shot 150s consistently once the shot combo reaches 12.

Edited by SenorClipClop

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9 hours ago, Arcira said:

After the changes to Embers Fireball Frenzy I did some testing. My impression for the first round is they are not worth using

About sums it up

 

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8 hours ago, TeaHawk said:

Nice idea. It must actually also turn all damage type to heat damage, so you can fully enjoy the most useless damage type in the game with this frame.

Primed kek.

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9 hours ago, Raqiya said:

With how difficult it is to get heat only, High/100% status/proc weapons in the game I I don't think the mod will make too much of a difference. 
Perhaps if DE created an actual "Overheat" passive where she's lit on fire and turns all weapon proc's into heat with a higher status chance or something along those lines will the mod become more useful for her.

Before this can work, Heat procs need to be buffed so they can stack, like Slash and Toxic procs already do

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11 hours ago, Arcira said:

Anyway. My Question is does have anyone a good build in order to make use of those augment buffs (for Fireball and Accelerant), or an idea against what type of Enemy they could be usefull?

Eidolon

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9 hours ago, schilds said:

a video

Dang, I didn't know Ember had the ability of getting red crits with a melee weapon

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@Arcira

For that video:

Ember: Steel Charge, Power Drift, P. Continuity, Fleeting Expertise, Transient Fortitude, Health Conversion, Constitution, Flash Accelerant, Umbral Intensify, Fireball Frenzy, Arcane Strike and Fury.

Jat Kusar: P. Pressure Point, A. Organ Shatter, Gladiator Might, Molten Impact, Berserker, Sacrificial Steel, Blood Rush, Condition Overload

Ferrox modded for viral.

Sweeper P. modded for blast and electricity.

 

Takes a bit of set up, wouldn't necessarily recommend it in real play :D.

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, VentiGlondi said:

Dang, I didn't know Ember had the ability of getting red crits with a melee weapon

I guess the point was that it's all fire? Besides which, red crits don't mean anything without sufficient base damage behind them.

Edited by schilds

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They need to rework how armor and heat damage to it works. Untill that point all heat attacks (including Ember as a hole) will be terrible.

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