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(PS4)Multi-Melta

Fatigue/Loss of Interest

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vor 23 Minuten schrieb marelooke:

Imho it also says a lot about the course of DE, it appears that income, or appearance towards investors, is now more of a driving force behind the game's design than providing a fun game (note that it's not just Nigthwave that leads me to this conclusion, but that's not a topic for this thread).

It would be ironic that if Bungie turns the ship around now that they're free from Activision they might end up with a better monetisation policy than DE given that the games appear to be headed in opposite directions. DE still has the good guy reputation while Bungie is still shaking the taint of Activision's monetisation policies but depending on what either party does their positions could switch pretty easily with how DE has been riding the line (cue Alien Sex Fiend)

We'll see how it goes, of course, but it would sadden me to see Warframe go down the drain.

What does Nightwave have to do with monetisation? You cant buy the exclusive rewards and it doesnt cost money despite being basically a season pass. If anything it makes reactors and catalysts easier and more consistent to obtain.

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5 hours ago, (PS4)BenHeisennberg said:

If you're talking about umbral forma, we've demolished everything in the game without that on one warframe.

That is true, however this opens up possibilities to more efficiently kill sentients while not playing Excalibur Umbra only. Is it not completely obvious? People in Warframe love efficiency.

5 hours ago, (PS4)BenHeisennberg said:

This returns to the point I've made in the past:  people experiencing this psychological condition need help, not for the game to change for them. 

Take a hike. This is proven to work on almost all people, by marketing agencies and scientists alike. It's amazing how many people preach "go do more real life" but then, like you, are entirely clueless of some aspects of real life. Do yourself a favour and go read on FOMO and the usual brain vulnerabilities marketing preys upon. And stop, just stop already, spreading misinformation. FOMO is practically in the top 5 of universally applicable brain bugs / defects / manipulation hatches. Why is this even a debate?

 

Overall, your comment leaves me scratching my head. Everything I said as a counter-argument to you is blindingly obvious.

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5 hours ago, 000l000 said:

Most people complaining around here can't get the simple point that Warframe is only a game, we aren't forced to anything if this is no fun. If a daily isn't much interesting to me, i don't care - simple as that.

And most people can't obviously understand it's about efficiency, you included. I actually love my job and my personal time and I'd like to get the rewards from Warframe more efficiently since that means I can quicker get to do other activities I also enjoy. Where's the mystery?

Plus, do we really have an exact deadline for Nightwave 2.0? Honest question. Yeah, "chill and relax and don't hurry up" and then boom, sorry, Nightwave is over. Again, where's the mystery?

You people should stop parroting your nonsense argument already.

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11 minutes ago, Drachnyn said:

What does Nightwave have to do with monetisation? You cant buy the exclusive rewards and it doesnt cost money despite being basically a season pass. If anything it makes reactors and catalysts easier and more consistent to obtain.

You are right in that there's no direct monetisation, but more trying to make people play more regularly than they otherwise would, presumably in the hopes that they will also spend more on account of playing more. Or the fear that people taking breaks don't come back (since we don't have the numbers it's hard to tell how founded that fear would be) That or padding the active player numbers for investors, and acquiring more money that way. It is, of course, impossible to tell as an outsider what the actual reasoning is.

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21 minutes ago, Drachnyn said:

What does Nightwave have to do with monetisation?

  1. Coercing players to login daily through the fear of missing out.
  2. They do the "we have a lot of active players" presentation in front of investors.
  3. Investors provide next round of funding because they like how things look for the future of the product.

These things are being done every day in a lot of businesses, not only videogames or even IT. Supermarket chains do campaigns with discounts and then show the inflated visitor numbers to their investors as well. It's a widely known strategy, usually done shortly before funding round meetups.

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5 hours ago, (PS4)BenHeisennberg said:

This returns to the point I've made in the past:  people experiencing this psychological condition need help, not for the game to change for them.

My hot take? A comment like this isn't helpful like this because you're talking down to people - you don't know - for having a condition you deem problematic even when you're more than likely unqualified to diagnose such a conditions.

FOMO is part of Warframe's DNA; it's when the FOMO is to dependent on unrewarding grinding that it becomes a problem, and if DE can address that and maintain challenge and freshness for both newcomers and vets alike (not easy feat, imo) you'll see these complaints become less and less.

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vor 5 Minuten schrieb Gofretko:

Coercing players to login daily through the fear of missing out

The dailies actually matter very little and they stay up for 3 days. doing all dailies barely lets you reach rank 30 before someone who has only done weeklies.

vor 8 Minuten schrieb marelooke:

You are right in that there's no direct monetisation, but more trying to make people play more regularly than they otherwise would, presumably in the hopes that they will also spend more on account of playing more. Or the fear that people taking breaks don't come back (since we don't have the numbers it's hard to tell how founded that fear would be) That or padding the active player numbers for investors, and acquiring more money that way. It is, of course, impossible to tell as an outsider what the actual reasoning is.

 

vor 7 Minuten schrieb Gofretko:
  1. They do the "we have a lot of active players" presentation in front of investors.
  2. Investors provide next round of funding because they like how things look for the future of the product.

These things are being done every day in a lot of business, not only videogames or even IT. Supermarket chains do campaigns with discounts and then show the inflated visitor numbers to their investors as well. It's a widely known strategy, usually done shortly before funding round meetups.

That's not specific to Nightwave at all, that's all content. If anything Alerts were worse in that way because if you wanted everything from them you had to stay logged in all the time. With Nightwave you can complete the entire set of weeklies in 2 to 3 hours now, which is less than "stay logged in forever to maybe see that one reactor alert or helmet you want".

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1 minute ago, Drachnyn said:

That's not specific to Nightwave at all

But Nightwave is the tool to achieve inflated login numbers through FOMO.

Stop intentionally missing the point, please.

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vor 1 Minute schrieb Gofretko:

But Nightwave is the tool to achieve inflated login numbers through FOMO.

Stop intentionally missing the point, please.

Then please read further in my post. Alerts, the system that nightwave replaced, were in their rng nature worse than that. All "exclusive" rewards could potentially come back in the future in some way aswell. The only things that will ever stay truly exclusive are the founder items, everything else can return. I get that many people feel FOMO with the high rank rewards but it always feels like to me that they arent actually putting a lot of thought in how easy it is to get to that. 

Especially in Season 2 with the recovered acts system you can postpone doing anything almost forever. Sure there are still a few bad eggs in the weeklies but the time investment really got reduced. Like I said: if you do nightwave efficiently you need to login pretty much only once per week. If anything that's the monetisation aspect because if you dont login for like 3 days or more, your chances at getting a 75% off coupon increase drastically.

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Il y a 5 heures, Gofretko a dit :

And most people can't obviously understand it's about efficiency, you included. I actually love my job and my personal time and I'd like to get the rewards from Warframe more efficiently since that means I can quicker get to do other activities I also enjoy. Where's the mystery?

Plus, do we really have an exact deadline for Nightwave 2.0? Honest question. Yeah, "chill and relax and don't hurry up" and then boom, sorry, Nightwave is over. Again, where's the mystery?

You people should stop parroting your nonsense argument already.

Games aren't about efficiency, they're about having fun only. I'd care about efficiency if i was talking about my job. Efficiency is only something you're looking for personally for your own reasons - I'm pretty sure one can have a lot of fun at any game and still suck at it or even miss some rewards. It's also kind of a guy thing, my wife is also playing the game and i can tell you that women aren't much into the effiency thing - fun is top priority and tbh she wouldn't do something she doesn't have fun with in the first place.

People are mostly missing what a game is originally about, hence the whole toxicity thing since a decade. A game isn't a job, and wasting time in a game is not even relevant since playing is already a waste of time. I'm really serious about people chilling out - Reading this forum only show how stressed people are, even for a simple game.

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4 hours ago, Drachnyn said:

Alerts, the system that nightwave replaced, were in their rng nature worse than that.

Unquestionably. I'm glad they are gone.

 

4 hours ago, Drachnyn said:

I get that many people feel FOMO with the high rank rewards but it always feels like to me that they arent actually putting a lot of thought in how easy it is to get to that. 

Yes, because most are indeed easy. No, because some are awfully bugged and inconsistent -- like the perfect animal captures -- and even if they are easy per se, they can still take you 2-3 hours as opposed to 20 minutes.

4 hours ago, Drachnyn said:

If anything that's the monetisation aspect because if you dont login for like 3 days or more, your chances at getting a 75% off coupon increase drastically.

Interesting perspective, also I didn't know about the coupon.

Thank you.

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24 minutes ago, 000l000 said:

Games aren't about efficiency, they're about having fun only.

To me they are both. I find it an interesting challenge to optimise certain activities so they can be done quicker. That can make me have fun. Although I will concede that it is a different and specific kind of fun. It's not like the classic definition of it.

My wife is also my fun guiding light and radar, by the way. She's better than me at stopping before she gets zombified or pissed off. It's really valuable for your significant other to be able to help you in that way.

I'm not saying you are wrong. I'm just saying that fun and optimisation can go together.

Truthfully, we have days -- sometimes weeks -- when we just say feck it and do whatever exactly we feel like doing in Warframe as opposed to Nightwave's quests. But the FOMO is there. We want the Umbra Forma and we don't actually know if NW 2.0 won't just end tomorrow. That was my point.

Sorry if I sounded rude, wasn't my intention.

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5 hours ago, Drachnyn said:

Then please read further in my post. Alerts, the system that nightwave replaced, were in their rng nature worse than that. All "exclusive" rewards could potentially come back in the future in some way aswell. The only things that will ever stay truly exclusive are the founder items, everything else can return. I get that many people feel FOMO with the high rank rewards but it always feels like to me that they arent actually putting a lot of thought in how easy it is to get to that. 

Especially in Season 2 with the recovered acts system you can postpone doing anything almost forever. Sure there are still a few bad eggs in the weeklies but the time investment really got reduced. Like I said: if you do nightwave efficiently you need to login pretty much only once per week. If anything that's the monetisation aspect because if you dont login for like 3 days or more, your chances at getting a 75% off coupon increase drastically.

You say yourself that Nightwave is an event, with all the drawbacks of events. So I don't feel like I even have to go into the massive difference between alert RNG and Nightwave's time limited grind. Alerts would always be back soon(tm), it's anyone's guess when Nightwave's reward would return, in case of most events that has been multiple years. Quite the difference with alerts, where it's usually, "in a few hours", "tomorrow" or "next week". Unless you wanted Vauban, but that was the exception that everyone has been complaining about (rightfully so) since he was added.

Having it be "less" time consuming (and it's still more than time consuming enough for something permanent, doing 5 different bounties is still slow, no matter how you do it and the same can be said about quite a few others) doesn't even matter, it's still forcing content on us we don't want to do to the detriment of us being able to play the content we actually want to play. Pretty much all my Warframe time nowadays is spent on Nightwave chores. Once I'm done I just don't feel like playing anymore knowing that anything I do I can have to re-do as a chore the next time I login. (gilding, forma, ...)

The catchup mechanic is also junk since to catch up you still have to force yourself through the chores you skipped in the first place, and usually people skip them for a reason (eg. they don't have access to said content, or they dislike said content). Hell, you can get "lucky" and get a "do 3 sorties" one and be blocked for at least three days (or forever if you simply don't do Sorties), followed by another Sortie one, to make it 4 days.

Sure if this thing was an actual event, and not a permanent fixture in the game most of us would just suck it up and get it over with, like we've done with so many events in the past, the problem is that this thing is supposed to be permanent.

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9 hours ago, Gofretko said:

That is true, however this opens up possibilities to more efficiently kill sentients while not playing Excalibur Umbra only. Is it not completely obvious? People in Warframe love efficiency.

Unless we get level 80+ sentients with The New War, this is largely irrelevant.  Any Warframe has no trouble killing current "normal" sentients (non-boss).

9 hours ago, Gofretko said:

Take a hike. This is proven to work on almost all people, by marketing agencies and scientists alike. It's amazing how many people preach "go do more real life" but then, like you, are entirely clueless of some aspects of real life. Do yourself a favour and go read on FOMO and the usual brain vulnerabilities marketing preys upon. And stop, just stop already, spreading misinformation. FOMO is practically in the top 5 of universally applicable brain bugs / defects / manipulation hatches. Why is this even a debate?

I did read on FOMO.  Most articles regarding it were about people needing help quitting video games because of addiction's negative influences on their lives.

Addiction and withdrawal out of a fear that you aren't getting a cosmetic is not healthy and not a state of mind you should consider normal.  If this is you, please seek help.

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8 hours ago, (PS4)EyeGodZA said:

My hot take? A comment like this isn't helpful like this because you're talking down to people - you don't know - for having a condition you deem problematic even when you're more than likely unqualified to diagnose such a conditions.

FOMO is part of Warframe's DNA; it's when the FOMO is to dependent on unrewarding grinding that it becomes a problem, and if DE can address that and maintain challenge and freshness for both newcomers and vets alike (not easy feat, imo) you'll see these complaints become less and less.

Every reference I've seen to "FOMO" describes it in terms of predatory use of a psychological phenomena.  It appears to be:

Unhealthy

Not affecting everybody

Related to addiction

Causing people to act out of fear of not getting something trivial (you mention this yourself in saying "unrewarding grind")

To me, this sounds like a problem for a therapist, not the feedback forums.

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On the subject of FOMO - I recently ran into a far better description of the issue, which fits Nightwave along with plenty of DE's other stable tactics: "appointment mechanics." Daily logins, daily missions, weekly projects, 24-hour build timers, time-limited events - all of these things and more are designed not to keep you playing, but to keep you coming back. The game effectively schedules appointments for you through its daily and weekly schedules. And sure, you're free to cancel any of them by just not turning up and for the most part you wouldn't be missing out on much, realistically speaking. However, it's the mental chicanery involved in these "appointment mechanics" that I personally find distasteful.

This has been my largest and most persistent criticism of Warframe since the day I started playing it, and it's a criticism it shares with so much of modern gaming. The game - really, the developers - aren't simply offering me entertainment. They want a say in my daily schedule. They don't want me just playing their game. They want me playing their game daily. They want me playing their game on a schedule. They want me organising my life around playing their game, on their timetable. But I don't have to! I'm free to play whenever I want, however I want... But it's clear how I'm "supposed" to do it, and how I'm rewarded for doing it. While Warframe avoids most of the common F2P criticism since its actual monetisation system is generally pretty fair - currency is cheap but has a lot of purchase power - it does go a fair way towards making up for that with "appointment mechanics."

And you can tell me I'm soft, you can tell me it's my own problem, you can tell me "just don't play those things," but the result is still the same. I can tell the game is pressuring me to do certain things. For the most part, I'll shrug and do them... But once I burn out and I can no longer be arsed, the entire house of cards collapses. Once I stop caring about one appointment, I stop caring about all of 'em. I stop logging in daily, I stop redeploying Extractors, I stop checking my Foundry, I stop looking at Baro. Once I stop following the game's schedule, its entire system of motivation falls apart. THAT is the primary danger of FOMO - it's works as long as you can keep people afraid of missing out. Once people start missing out, however, they stop coming back altogether.

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1 hour ago, (PS4)BenHeisennberg said:

Most articles regarding it were about people needing help quitting video games because of addiction's negative influences on their lives.

This is a very narrow view. FOMO is a thing since ancient Egypt. "Buy the bread until it's warm!", "I'll give you a special price for this rug, but only today, tomorrow it gets back to its regular price!", "Get these silver earrings before the traveling merchant leaves!" -- there is a heck ton of such examples throughout history.

It's an ancient selling tactic, nor is it limited to video games.

My point was, and still is, FOMO is a very normal marketing tool in a number of businesses. Do tell me that you never, not one single time in your life, have not bought an item because it was "on sale"?

And yes, this is also very related to Warframe. FOMO is utilised so you can keep coming back, as @Steel_Rook mentioned. The more you go back, the more often you are tempted to buy.

This is how marketing and selling divisions think -- and again, this has been going on for thousands of years.

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37 minutes ago, Gofretko said:

This is a very narrow view. FOMO is a thing since ancient Egypt. "Buy the bread until it's warm!", "I'll give you a special price for this rug, but only today, tomorrow it gets back to its regular price!", "Get these silver earrings before the traveling merchant leaves!" -- there is a heck ton of such examples throughout history.

It's an ancient selling tactic, nor is it limited to video games.

My point was, and still is, FOMO is a very normal marketing tool in a number of businesses. Do tell me that you never, not one single time in your life, have not bought an item because it was "on sale"?

And yes, this is also very related to Warframe. FOMO is utilised so you can keep coming back, as @Steel_Rook mentioned. The more you go back, the more often you are tempted to buy.

This is how marketing and selling divisions think -- and again, this has been going on for thousands of years.

That interpretation has occurred to me, but that one makes no sense, unless every complaint about it can be dismissed the same as a complaint that DE is a for-profit company.

If that's the "fomo" that people are arguing about:  Yes, I have purchased things on sale; but no, there was nothing particularly nefarious or predatory about it.

If the biggest complaint about Nightwave is that it involves playing at least a little during a ten week period to get a reward, that's a very weak complaint, and you might as well pick up a game that has an up front price and does not require subsequent player engagement for monetization.

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58 minutes ago, (PS4)BenHeisennberg said:

If the biggest complaint about Nightwave is that it involves playing at least a little during a ten week period to get a reward, that's a very weak complaint, and you might as well pick up a game that has an up front price and does not require subsequent player engagement for monetization.

Stop with the "if"-s and read some previous posts. :wink:

I have zero issues playing a LOT of Warframe. But I want to do what I had in mind, not what the Nightwave requirements for the day/week are. Example: I'd like to level 3 Archwings I have sitting at Unranked for months, and then 20-30 melee weapons with Loki utilising the +500% stealth kill affinity bonus. And I haven't done those in a while because there's always something more to do in Nightwave. Sure it doesn't monopolise the entire week -- that is true and I am not going to contest facts. Mine and other people's points are that by the time you finish with Nightwave your desire to play might have been exhausted. That is the core argument -- that we have limited time and desire budget for playing games and that the chores are draining it before we get a chance to do what we wanted and what we perceive as fun and chill activity.

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29 minutes ago, Gofretko said:

I have zero issues playing a LOT of Warframe. But I want to do what I had in mind, not what the Nightwave requirements for the day/week are. Example: I'd like to level 3 Archwings I have sitting at Unranked for months, and then 20-30 melee weapons with Loki utilising the +500% stealth kill affinity bonus. And I haven't those in a while because there's always something more to do in Nightwave. Sure it doesn't monopolise the entire week -- that is true. Mine and other people's points are that by the time you finish with Nightwave your desire to play might have been exhausted. That is the core argument -- that we have limited time and desire budget for playing games and that the chores are draining it before we get a chance to do exactly what we wanted.

That's actually where I'm sitting right now, as well. I long in enough to get Nightwave done, maybe even catch up on a missed Challenge or two, but that's it. By the time I'm done with Nightwave, my enthusiasm for Warframe is spent and I'd rather go play something else. And sure, I could just ignore Nightwave and go do something else anyway... But "something else" isn't time-gated. Those Spy missions aren't going anywhere. I will fully grant you that I'm burnt out on the game - not even an argument about it at this point. However, I want the Umbral Forma, so I'm bothering with Nightwave - it's what keeps me coming back despite common sense clearly telling me I'm ruining the experience for myself.

To be perfectly honest, I enjoyed Warframe more when Nightwave was on Hiatus than when it was active. At least then I didn't have a list of chores with ticking clocks attached to all of them. And all of the rationalisation about how "60% of challenges!" or "just don't do them," etc. are technically true, none of them change the fact that Nightwave has turned what used to be a game I'd jump in to run a few missions and have a bit of fun into a work project that I jump into to get some progress made towards the next milestone before the next deadline. I can keep reminding myself that that's not what it IS, that I can run missed Challenges at a later time, that I can ultimately ignore it all because I don't really NEED an Umbral Forma.

Intellectually I know all that, but emotionally it still bugs me. It still bugs me because the system is designed to bug me until I do it, or else walk away not having done it and feeling like I've missed out. I'm still unsure if DE really did intend for Nightwave to feel like work of - as I've said elsewhere - they accidentally copied that part when they copied the Fortnite Battle Pass. I'm hoping for the latter and Season 2 suggests as much. It's not intolerable, but at the end of the day it still leaves me wondering - why was this added in the first place? What, ultimately, was the point? If they had simply pulled Nitain from Alerts and made it into a regular resource, would anyone have been all that bothered?

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12 hours ago, (PS4)BenHeisennberg said:

Every reference I've seen to "FOMO" describes it in terms of predatory use of a psychological phenomena.  It appears to be:

Unhealthy

Not affecting everybody

Related to addiction

Causing people to act out of fear of not getting something trivial (you mention this yourself in saying "unrewarding grind")

To me, this sounds like a problem for a therapist, not the feedback forums.

If you think so, then you should be recommending feedback for people addicted to the internet, virtually all social media platforms, smartphones, gambling, etc.

Good luck with that.

If you think that DE doesn't employ techniques that exploit people's psychological weaknesses to play their F2P game... and actually spend their money on it... you're the one who needs your head checked.

And honestly, going around saying "people need therapy" just adds to the stigma surrounding mental illness - the plague of our times - and people who need real help. Don't do it.

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14 hours ago, Gofretko said:

Mine and other people's points are that by the time you finish with Nightwave your desire to play might have been exhausted. That is the core argument -- that we have limited time and desire budget for playing games and that the chores are draining it before we get a chance to do what we wanted and what we perceive as fun and chill activity.

I get that a little better than the fomo argument.  Thankfully, in season two, you can do the challenges at basically any time you wish via the catch up mechanic.

4 hours ago, (PS4)EyeGodZA said:

If you think that DE doesn't employ techniques that exploit people's psychological weaknesses to play their F2P game... and actually spend their money on it... you're the one who needs your head checked.

And honestly, going around saying "people need therapy" just adds to the stigma surrounding mental illness - the plague of our times - and people who need real help. Don't do it.

DE is no more exploitive that anyone else selling a product, and yet it is these feedback forums filled with the complaints.  This appears to be an issue for a particular group of people.

I am not trying to stigmatize you.  I'm trying to get you to see that something is wrong if your wellbeing is affected by Nightwave, and it's not on DE's end.  To solve that, you first need to recognize that.

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You have to understand, most of these people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inured, so hopelessly dependent on the system, that they will fight to protect it.

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Yeah finishing up this 2nd series I'm feeling pretty burnt out. This is not a good system. 

Guild wars 2 tried this with living world series 1 for an entire year and my friends and I felt so burnt out at the end of it that I completely stopped playing for like 2 years or so. I must have not been the only one as Gw2 completely revamped it into quest line expansions instead. I like the new GW2 format better but I  am not a hardcore player as before. 

I personally feel like WF is heading down the same track with nightwave, coming near the end of nightwave I'm getting happy to NOT play warframe, which I think wasnt the goal of nightwave.

Do not get me wrong, I like the idea of daily challenges to gain currency to purchase the alert items (vauban parts, Forma, etc) but the main nightwave series rewards like the operator skin or other visuals should be reformatted into releasing as an event or special episodic quest line.

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It is because the game originally felt more like a sandbox.  Go and do whatever you want and work on whatever.  Now you are forced I to a playstyle.  

I liked Warframe better without it.

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